WAKE OF THE SUPREME COURT'S DOBBS DECISION, MANY ANTIABORTION ADVOCATES OFFERED ADOPTION AS A SUITABLE SOLUTION TO UNWANTED PREGNANCIES.

BUT THE AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK SAYS THAT ARGUMENT IS MISGUIDED IN RELINQUISH THE POLITICS OF ADOPTION AND PRIVILEGE OF AMERICAN MOTHERHOOD, AUTHOR AND SOCIOLOGIST GRETCHEN SISSON TELLS THE STORIES OF BIRTH MOTHERS WHO PLACE THEIR INFANTS FOR DOMESTIC ADOPTION PAINTING A FAR MORE NUANCED IMAGE OF THE ADOPTION INDUSTRY THAN MOST PEOPLE UNDERSTAND.

AND JOINING US NOW IS AUTHOR GRETCHEN SISSON, AUTHOR OF RELINQUISH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANKS FOR HAVING SO FIRST, TELL US WHAT YOU WANT TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

SO I STARTED DOING IT A COLLECTION FOR THIS BOOK.

BACK IN 2010, OBVIOUSLY.

WELL, BEFORE WE KNEW THE DOBBS DECISION WAS COMING DOWN THE PIPE.

BUT AT THAT POINT, I WAS IN GRADUATE SCHOOL.

I WAS WORKING AT AN ORGANIZATION THAT WORKED WITH PREGNANT AND PARENTING TEENAGERS AND YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND I WAS LOOKING AT THE WAYS THAT OUR CULTURAL IDEAS OF PARENTHOOD WHAT YOUNG PARENTHOOD BENT REALLY DIVERGED FROM THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCES.

AND I WAS ALSO DOING SOME WORK IN ABORTION CARE AND FUNDING AND SEEING THE WAY THAT THOSE CULTURAL NARRATIVE STAY PURGED FROM WHAT WE'RE HEARING FROM CALLERS.

AND I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND HOW ADOPTION WAS ACTUALLY FUNCTIONING IN THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE MOST IMPACTED BY IT.

SO THAT'S WHAT BROUGHT ME TO THAT RESEARCH IN 2010.

AND THEN I DID 10 YEAR FOLLOW-UP WITH A LOT OF THE SAME WOMAN THAT I HAD INTERVIEWED THE FIRST TIME AROUND.

AND THEN OPPOSITION HAPPENED AND TOOK WHAT WAS KIND OF A A SMALLER ACADEMIC QUESTION AND GAVE NEW POLITICAL FRAMING AND AND RESIDENTS FOR IT TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO WHAT THE JUSTICES WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE ORAL ARGUMENTS OF THE DECISION.

YOU TELL MANY STORIES OF BIOLOGICAL OR BIRTH MOMS WHO COME FROM VARYING BACKGROUNDS.

WHAT ARE THE COMMON THREADS THAT YOU FOUND AMONG THEM?

YEAH.

SO WHEN WE LOOK AT THE COMMONALITIES AND EVERYTHING, I SAY AS FAR AS COMING OUT HAS MANY EXCEPTIONS, RIGHT?

BECAUSE A REALLY DIVERSE GROUP OF WOMEN.

BUT FOR THE MOST PART, MOST OF THEM WANTED TO PARENT THEIR CHILDREN.

THAT'S WHY THEY CONTINUE THEIR PREGNANCIES.

THEY WERE INTENDING AND HOPING TO PARENT.

AND IT WAS REALLY WHEN PARENTHOOD FELT IMPOSSIBLE ARE UNTENABLE ON BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAVE THE SUPPORT THEY NEED.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NEEDED TO MAKE THAT POSSIBLE THAT THEY TURNED TO ADOPTION IS A LIFELINE.

THIS WHOLE IDEA THAT WOMEN ARE CHOOSING BETWEEN ABORTION ADOPTION IS JUST NOT SOMETHING THAT WE'VE SEEN AND HOW PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT PREGNANCIES AND ABOUT PARENTING.

THE STORIES IN THE BOOK, THEY'RE PRIMARILY, AS YOU SAY, FOCUSED ON WOMEN WHO RELINQUISHED IN POST ROE VERSUS WADE.

BUT HOW WOULD YOU SAY ON ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE HAS IMPACTED THE ADOPTION INDUSTRY.

SO ADOPTION IS PRIMARILY A CONSTRAINT CHOICE WHEN YOU TAKE AWAY OTHER OPTIONS, RIGHT?

WHEN YOU MAKE ABORTION COMPLETELY INACCESSIBLE OR WHEN YOU MAKE PARENTING VERY IMPOSSIBLE THAT SOME PEOPLE TURN TO ADOPTION.

IT WAS NO ONE'S FIRST CHOICE.

REALLY.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LIMITS ON ABORTION ACCESS AND OTHER TYPES IMPACT OF HEALTH CARE.

THAT'S A CONSTRAINT THAT'S GOING TO LIMIT THE OPTIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE AVAILABLE TO THEM IN A REALLY CRITICAL WAY.

BUT WHEN YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE ENDING THE CHILD TAX CREDIT, RIGHT, THAT IS ALSO A CONSTRAINT ON HOW PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THE OPTIONS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO THEM.

SO, YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED THE DOBBS DECISION A COUPLE OF TIMES.

AND SO I WANT TO GET TO, YOU KNOW, IN THE WAKE OF THAT DECISION, OF COURSE, DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, THERE ARE MANY POLITICIANS, PUBLIC FIGURES WHO, AS YOU SAY, PUT ADOPTION AND ABORTION SIDE BY SIDE AS IF THESE ARE 2 EQUAL ALTERNATIVES ON THAT, WE HAVE A CLIP OF FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL LAST YEAR.

MY HUSBAND WAS ADOPTED AND I AM REMINDED OF THAT BLESSING EVERY SINGLE DAY.

WHEN HE WAS JUST A FEW YEARS OLD, MICHAEL AND HIS SIBLINGS WERE TAKEN FROM THEIR HOME.

LATER.

THEY WERE PUT INTO FOSTER CARE.

IT WAS A ROUGH EXPERIENCE FOR HIM.

THANKFULLY, WHEN HE WAS 4 YEARS OLD, A LOVING FAMILY ADOPTED MICHAEL AND HIS YOUNGER SISTER.

IT CHANGED THEIR LIVES.

ADOPTION LITERALLY SAFE THEM.

IN THE CASE OF HER HUSBAND'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

HE WAS ADOPTED AFTER GOING TO THE FOSTER SYSTEM.

HE WAS A LITTLE BIT OLDER VERSUS BEING ADOPTED AS AN INFANT.

BUT WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO ARGUMENTS LIKE HERS AND SOME THAT WE HEARD WHEN THE DOBBS DECISION WAS PLAYING OUT.

I THINK MY RESEARCH SPECIFICALLY IS ON PRIVATE ADOPTION SYSTEMS, THE UNITED STATES.

BUT I THINK MORE AND MORE THE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS FOR BOTH PUBLIC ADOPTION, WHICH IS FOSTER CARE, ADOPTION AND PRIVATE ADOPTION, ISRAELI POVERTY, RIGHT?

WE SEE THAT MOST RELINQUISHING MOTHERS HAVE LESS THAN $5,000 OF ANNUAL PERSONAL INCOME RIGHTS.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY COMING FROM A PLACE OF CONSTRAINED AS WE TALKED ABOUT FINANCIAL STRUGGLE WHEN THEY'RE MAKING THESE DECISIONS.

WE ALSO SEE THAT THAT'S DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED BY FOSTER CARE SYSTEMS, ALONG WITH FAMILIES OF COLOR AND PARTICULARLY BLACK FAMILIES.

RIGHT?

SO YOU HAVE THIS INCREASED SCRUTINY AND REGULATION OF.

POOR FAMILIES, THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE WE JUST WE AS A CULTURE, DO NOT BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN POVERTY ARE CAPABLE OF PARENTING.

AND WE WANT TO INTRODUCE THE SOLUTION, A FAMILY SEPARATION AND THE TRANSFER OF CHILDREN AS A WAY OF ADDRESSING THESE INEQUITIES.

SO WHEN I HEAR A STORY LIKE NIKKI OR OTHER STORIES THAT HAVE COME OUT OF THE PRIVATE ADOPTION SYSTEM AS WELL.

THE QUESTION FOR ME IS ALWAYS WHAT SUPPORT COULD THAT FAMILY ORIGIN HAVE HAD TO MAINTAIN THAT CONNECTION?

IT IN FULL DISCLOSURE FOR THE AUDIENCE AS WELL.

I MYSELF DOCTOR TO YOU MENTIONED YOUR RESEARCH POINTS TO THE TURN AWAY.

STUDY AND IT FOLLOWED 956 WOMEN WHO SOUGHT ABORTIONS IN THE U.S.

INCLUDING 160 WHO ENDED UP GIVING BIRTH BECAUSE THEY WERE DENIED AN ABORTION BECAUSE THEY WERE TOO FAR ALONG IN THEIR PREGNANCIES.

ACCORDING TO THE POLICY OF THE LOCATION WHERE THEY SOUGHT CARE.

ONLY 15 OF THEM.

SO THAT'S 9% TO RELINQUISH THEIR CHILDREN FOR ADOPTION.

THAT MEANS 91% OF THEM CHOSE TO PARENT, BUT THAT 9% TO RELINQUISH THEIR CHILDREN.

THAT'S ONLY ABOUT HALF A PERCENT.

2.5% AMERICAN BIRTHS THAT LEAD TO ADOPTION.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY?

WELL, IT JUST SHOWS THAT ADOPTION IS NEVER REALLY GOING TO BE A MEANINGFUL ALTERNATIVE TO ABORTION ACCESS IN THE LIVES AMERICAN WOMEN.

AND WHEN YOU DENY PEOPLE ACCESS TO ABORTIONS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE FAR, FAR MORE PEOPLE THAT ARE PARENTING AND CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THEY DIDN'T PLAN.

THEY DIDN'T CHOOSE A TIME IN THEIR LIFE.

THAT'S NOT IDEAL WITH A PARTNER THAT THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TO CO-PARENT WITH WHATEVER THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WERE LEADING THEM TO WANT THE ABORTION IN THE FIRST PLACE, THEY'RE GOING TO PARENTING IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

MORE THAN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY RELINQUISHING CHILDREN FOR ADOPTION.

BUT I SHOULD SAY THAT 9% PEOPLE WHO ARE DENIED CARE THAT END UP REALLY PUSHING ACTUALLY IS A HUGE INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PRIVATE DOMESTIC ADOPTIONS BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO NEED ABORTIONS IS SO HIGH COMPARED TO THE NUMBER OF PRIVATE OPTIONS.

SO WE HAVE ABOUT 850,000 TO A MILLION ABORTIONS EVERY YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES.

THESE ARE PRETTY DOBBS NUMBERS, BUT THEY ACTUALLY HAVEN'T GONE DOWN IN THE LAST YEARS THAT WE'VE SEEN AND YOU'LL HAVE ABOUT 20,000 PRIVATE DOMESTIC ADOPTION.

SO EVEN A RELATIVELY SMALL PROPORTION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DENIED ACCESS RELINQUISHING MEANS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A YOU COULD HAVE A FAIRLY DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PRIVATE ADOPTION CAN TALK ABOUT THIS ALL DAY BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY YOU'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, INDIVIDUAL STORIES OF THE BIRTH MOMS THAT YOU SPOKE WITH AS WELL.

SOME WHO SAY THEY REGRET THEIR DECISION TO RELINQUISH THEIR CHILDREN BECAUSE IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT ONE TO HAVE HAD TO MAKE.

BUT HOW WOULD YOU SAY?

BECAUSE WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME, BUT HOW DO YOU THINK SOCIETY SHOULD BE THINKING DIFFERENTLY ABOUT ADOPTION GOING FORWARD?

I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THE WAYS THAT WE'RE USING ADOPTION AND WHO ADOPTION PURPORTS TO SERVE.

RIGHT.

WE HAVE THIS IDEA THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF CHILDREN THAT ARE IN NEED OF HOMES.

WE ACTUALLY HAVE FAR, FAR MORE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO ADOPT A PRIVATE ADOPTION SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE CHILDREN AVAILABLE.

AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT MAKING ADOPTION CHILD CENTERED IN SOME WAY, WE NEED TO BE CENTERING WHAT CHILDREN NEED AND WHAT CHILDREN NEED AND THEIR FAMILIES OF ORIGIN AS WELL.

WHAT THAT MEANS TO KEEP FAMILIES TOGETHER AND TO SUPPORT THEM.

BECAUSE AS SOON AS YOU CENTER.

WHAT ADOPTIVE OR PROSPECTIVE ADOPTIVE FAMILIES WANT, YOU'RE MAKING THIS ABOUT WHAT ADULTS WANT RATHER THAN WHAT ABOUT CHILDREN AND FAMILIES ACTUALLY NEED AND UNITED STATES.

YEAH, THERE'S ALWAYS IF IF YOU TELL SOMEONE YOU'RE ADOPTING A SO MANY BABIES OUT THERE THAT NEED GOOD HOMES WHEN ALL BABIES NEED GOOD HOMES, NOT JUST THOSE WHO MAY OR MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR ADOPTION.

WE HAVE TO LEAVE THEIR GRETCHEN