GEOFF BENNETT: Today's historic prisoner release# from Russia was thanks to the diplomatic work of a## group of democracies, freeing over a dozen people# from the autocratic regime of Vladimir Putin.

But, as William Brangham reports,## a new book examines how autocracies are gaining# power and what they're doing.. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In her new book,# Pulitzer Prize winner Anne Applebaum## punctures the commonly held image# of an isolated autocrat.

Instead,## she documents the often interconnected# ways these strongmen rise to power,## how they bolster each other, and then# work in tandem to undermine democracy.

The book is called "Autocracy, Inc.: The# Dictators Who Want to Run the World."

And Anne Applebaum joins us now.

Welcome back to the "News Hour."

ANNE APPLEBAUM, Author, "Autocracy, Inc.: The# Dictators Who Want t.. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Can we start with a defin.. communist, often without knowing# what those terms really mean.

What is an autocrat, and who are the# autocrats out there that we would know?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: An autocrat is someone who# seeks to rule with no checks and balances,## with no checks on his authority, with no judges,# no media, no intermediary figures or institutions,## who wants to control everything that happens# in the state and to make all of the decisions.

And I -- the autocrats who I'm most interested# in are the ones who not only want to have that## system at home, but who are interested# in protecting people who want to create## those systems abroad.

So, the book# is mostly about Russia, China, Iran,## North Korea, Venezuela, and a host of others,# Zimbabwe, Azerbaijan.

There's a list of them.

And, increasingly, they operate as a network.# They seek to protect each other and also## to disrupt the democratic world.

And that's# because the language of the democratic world,## meaning rights, laws, rule of law, justice... WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Accountability.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: ... acco.. that's the language of their# own internal oppositions.

And so they need to undermine the# people who use it and, if they can,## discredit it.

And that's part of what# we're seeing happen now around the world.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: One of the stereotypes# that you try to puncture here is this idea## that they really don't have shared interests,# that they work individually to oppress and## terrorize their own citizens, but don't really# care so much about what happens elsewhere.

What is it that they do see as the value in# helping -- what does Xi see in helping Putin,## or Putin in North Korea, for instance?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: Well, some of it is pragmatic.# So Putin gets ammunition from North Korea,## and he gets drones from Iran, and he gets# components for his defense industry from Xi.

And some of it is a little bit more than that.

So# Xi may have an interest in not seeing Putin fail,## because, if Putin fails, that speaks badly# of autocratic systems.

It speaks badly of the## kinds of leaders who rule with absolute power.# And it might have a negative impact on him.

They worry a great deal about the# autocratic club and the fate of its members.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Your book is# dedicated to the optimists out there.

And I wonder, when you look at how the West# and NATO stood up to Putin's aggression in## Ukraine, does that give you a sense of# optimism that the forces of democracy## can be martialed against autocracy?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: It really did.

I mean, it was a# moment nobody was really sure what would happen## when Russia invaded Ukraine in full-scale# invasion in 2022, and the degree to which not## just the old West, Europe and America, not just# NATO, but the entire democratic world rallied.

There's something like 50 countries# who've participated in the defense of## Ukraine or the aid of Ukraine.# The flip side is that I don't## think we fully understood at the# beginning of the war the degree to## which there was going to be an autocratic# network that was going to support Putin.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Supporting him... ... with arms# and money and .. ANNE APPLEBAUM: Arms and money# and support of other kinds.

And we need to now begin thinking about how# to counter that.

And people are beginning to## think about it, but a little --# like everything, a little late.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This is not a# book about Donald Trump.

I mean,## he gets a few passing mentions and a# good chunk of the last page of your book.

But you do write that, if he were# reelected and uses the tools of## executive power against his perceived enemies,# that it would -- quote -- then it would be:## "The blending of the autocratic and# democratic worlds will be complete."

Do you think that Donald# Trump wants to be an autocrat?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: He certainly# says so.

I mean, sometimes,## he says so in a kind of jokey way:# I will be dictator for one day.

Sometimes, he says so in the language he uses# about -- whether it's about President Xi,## who he admires, or President Putin, who he# admires, or even the dictator of North Korea,## who's driven his country into poverty# and isolation, who he also admires.

So he's telling us what kinds of people# are around -- and he rarely -- he has## very few kind words for American# allies or for fellow democracies.## It's really the absolute -- people with# absolute power that he wants to be like.

And you can also hear in the language he uses,# whether it's about judges, or whether it's## about the media, or whether it's about American# institutions of other kind, about the electoral## system, that he has great disdain for the# institutions of democracy and the rules that## were set up to make sure that power is checked in# our country and that the executive isn't a king.

And those are disturbing traits.# And they would be -- they would be## disturbing at any time in history, but# they're particularly disturbing now,## when we have the rise of so many leaders# with absolute power around the world who## would love to have a transactional# American president to do deals with.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: People who live# in democracies love to think that,## when pressed, that the system will be robust# and stand up to this.

I mean, that was what## many people thought of -- happened during the# first Trump administration, that the system held.

Do you think that that's naive?

ANNE APPLEBAUM: It can be naive.

I mean, there is a pattern.

You .. who lose elections, people like Donald Trump who# believe they are owed power, they deserve power,## who lose elections and who come back in a second# term and say, right, this time, I'm not going to## make that mistake again, and who then change their# electoral system, or, in Orban's case, change the## constitution, change the judicial system,# in order to make sure that they never lose.

The attention that's paid,# for example, to Project 2025,## which is a project of The Heritage Foundation,# which describes exactly how you would do that## and which sounds remarkably like what's# happened in other countries, including,## by the way, in Venezuela -- that# was how Hugo Chavez took over.

This isn't necessarily a right-wing# or a left-wing project.

It's just an## antidemocratic project.

And the fact that he will# be surrounded by people like that is disturbing.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The book is called "Autocracy,# Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World."

Anne Applebaum, great to# see you.

Thank you so much.

ANNE APPLEBAUM: Thank you.