- We're now joined by Dr. Lynette Mawhinney, who is Professor and Chair of the Department of Urban Education at Rutgers University of Newark.

Good to have you, Professor.

- Thank you.

Thank you for having me today.

- Well, it's great having you.

But the topic I'm gonna bring up is not a fun topic to talk about, but it's important.

There's been a great resignation of teachers overall particularly since COVID, but it's worse when it comes to African Americans, the African American teacher shortage.

Why is it worse and how bad is the black teacher shortage?

- Well, it's black teachers and also other teachers of color.

So Latinx teachers, indigenous teachers, there's sadly a plethora of, so teachers of color were lacking from the beginning.

The real big resignation, I shouldn't say resignation.

The big push out was during Brown versus Board of Ed, right?

So when that came into play, we had white teachers who were then pushed into schools when it was desegregating to teach black students, but white schools didn't want black teachers and so they were fired.

So that- - One second Doctor, can we go back because - Yeah.

- I don't want to go...

The Brown versus Board of Education decision by the US Supreme Court back in the 1950s, significant on many levels.

But you're saying that even though it quote "desegregated" the schools, it had an adverse impact on black teachers?

- Completely, completely.

It ended up being a huge push out.

That wasn't intent, right, that wasn't the intention.

So if you go back to looking at Brown versus Board of Ed, the intention initially and the whole process was to get better resources for black segregated schools, right?

What it ended up being is this idea of desegregating and we can even really question or talk about if schools are really even desegregated, right?

- No, they're defacto, they are in fact defacto segregated.

New Jersey, one of the most segregated school systems in the nation largely because of where people choose to live.

Is that accurate?

Where they can afford to live?

- Where you can afford to live.

You know, redlining still does happen in certain ways right?

- It sure does.

- This is - It's just not official doctor, it's not official redlining.

Go ahead.

- Not official but I guess what we're saying is that there's a lot of layers to this onion that we can start to unpack.

But at the end of the day, we've had since Brown versus Board of Ed, when we're talking about black teachers but also I'm going to include other teachers of color there have been limited, the numbers have been limited.

It had stayed that way.

So around, you know, up until I think 2006 the teachers of color in the US completely was around 12%.

We're up to 18%, which is great.

But also there's a bigger divide because starting in 2016 is when the student population is now 50.1% students of color, right?

So it makes the gap even wider 'cause you have more students of color with that's growing and growing but still this small number of teachers of color now one of the reasons for that, there's a number of them.

I mean, just to be frank schools weren't built for students of color.

So why would someone wanna go teach?

Right, but we do have a lot of people who wanna teach.

There are some, you know, wonderful awesome great schools out there but how to become a teacher also, is there there's a lot of steps.

Teacher education in the nation is the only major you have to test into.

- Say that again?

The only major you have to test into?

- Test into, right.

So dependent on your state, but your state I can say out of the 50 states, it has some type of standardized tests that needs to be shown that they're and completed in order to get into the major.

It might have different people it might be a ETS test, it might be a Pearson test it might be a self done state test - But it is a standardized test?

- Yeah, but it's usually standardized.

- The problem with that doctor, I'm sorry for interrupting.

What is the problem with that in terms of what the outcome of that process is?

- But yeah, that's a great question.

'Cause standardized testing isn't a bad thing.

And you know, I always say if someone's gonna be a dentist and work on my mouth, I wanna know that they know how to do it, right?

But what's happening often, so I'll talk about in the state of New Jersey.

So in New Jersey to test in, you have to take what's called Praxis CORE, is reading and writing and math looks a lot like the SAT, research has shown over and over that CORE does not show or demonstrate if you're going to be a great teacher, A.

B, if I wanna be a English teacher or social studies teacher well, why do I need to show math proficiency or vice versa?

Right?

- Right.

- C, the makers, - What about racial bias?

The test, what about racial bias in the test?

- Exactly, the makers of the test have even done their own research to show that there's racial bias with it.

Right?

So there's a lot of bad.

So there's that and I'm not saying standardized testing's bad.

We have, in the state of New Jersey we have Praxis CORE, which is now whatever.

You're in the major, you're towards the end of your your undergrad degree about to get certified you need to show Praxis Two is like, hey, in your area so if I wanna be earth science teacher you have to show earth science proficiency.

That makes sense.

But all the stuff ahead of time ends up being a big barrier.

Specifically for teachers of color.

- Can you talk to us about this?

With the black teacher shortage being what it is what impact do you believe that has, negative impact on students of color?

- Yeah, so if we're just trying to talk specifically about black teachers, right?

So black men make up 1% of teachers in the country, which is, 1%.

So if a black boy doesn't see himself, if a white student doesn't see that black men can do these positions, right?

That says a lot.

There's researchers came out of, I think it's a University of Southern Florida that talks about if you have one if a black child has a black teacher in the early years so we're talking like kindergarten to fourth grade-ish there's chances of actually dropping out of school lessen by like more than half.

They basically, right?

And I, not to say, and what's really important here it's just to say, just because I'm a black body teaching in front of you, that's gonna solve all the problems.

It's not, like we need- - It matters, - But it matters.

But it matters.

But there's also, there's good quality too, right?

And we need really great teachers of color to come into the space.

But when we're having things like great resignation when we're having things like, here's a great example.

COVID really showed - Dr. Mawhinney, I'm so sorry for interrupting you there.

- Sure.

- We're gonna take a quick break, but this topic is too important for us to try to get in and out of, so quickly stay right there.

We'll continue the conversation.

We'll be right back.

To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

We continue the conversation with Dr. Lynette Mawhinney who's professor and chair of Department of Urban Education, Rutgers University of Newark.

Doctor, last time we were talking about this you were talking about the impact of having a black male teacher on a young African American man or teenager in terms of the seeing that black teacher the likelihood of staying in school versus dropping out.

Pick up that point please.

- Yeah, so basically it matters who's in the classroom and who's teaching.

And what I was gonna say is, during COVID I think people really understood how teachers matter when people were in their homes having to pick up some of the slack.

Then all of a sudden everyone loved teachers.

And I had a friend say to me just in April, I was back out in Chicago visiting, and she said, she's a music teacher.

And said, "Remember when they used to love us?

They have come back to not liking us anymore."

Right?

But who's in the classroom matters.

The quality of teacher matters and it's vital that we need to fill these roles.

And so there's this other piece of it takes a lot to get certified as a teacher, but then also and this is what our department has done as a collective to challenge the system in the state of New Jersey to be a so we have ESL and bilingual teaching.

- English has a second language, bilingual education.

Not the same thing?

- Not the same thing.

- Talk about it, please.

- So ESL is, I am a student who I'm trying to understand and grasp the language of English and learn that.

So then I can move on the class.

Bilingual is a teacher who can teach in said language their subject area.

So usually they need two certifications.

So let's say I'm that earth science teacher and I speak Portuguese, right?

So that gives me an earth science certificate and bilingual ed certificate.

So with that, with bilingual ed, you can teach all your subject matters.

Plus you can teach it in the language of the home spoken language.

That might be the majority, you know, language of your students in a district.

- Right?

- So we have a lot of teachers who have the language, but they need this extra credential.

And it doesn't make sense when we have undergrads who are coming through, who had great experiences in ESL who had great experiences in a bilingual ed classroom who wanna do this.

But we're asking them, you gotta go to grad school.

- Why does New Jer- I'm sorry for interrupting professor, why does new, you're making it sound as if New Jersey somehow different from other states.

Is that true?

- New Jersey is not so different from the rest of the country, to be honest.

But - Why do we do that?

Where's the logic in that thinking, that policy?

- And I love your question.

So because of that- - I don't have any answers, I just have questions ahead.

- I have no answer.

But I can tell you at Rutgers Newark, we've changed it.

So it's a practice, it's not a policy.

And so we've challenged that.

So we are the first in the state of New Jersey to now offer ESL or bilingual ed teacher certification at the undergrad level.

People don't have to do extra credit.

We're leveraging our students' skills and abilities in languaging to be able to not have to pay all this extra money.

It becomes an equity issue because we're pushing this.

We now have the program where, but we're also there's a collective in New Jersey called NJ ACTE.

It's all the teacher ed program.

- NJ what?

- NJ ACTE.

NJ A-C-T-E. - Okay.

The New Jersey Association for the Council of Teacher Education.

- Okay.

- So it's a collective of all teacher ed programs all over the state who come together once a month.

And so within that, we have one of our professors LaShaun Hannon, who's gonna be the incoming president for NJ ACTE in two years, she's currently treasurer.

We're actively pushing this idea of, okay, look we showed that we can change practice.

We're doing it.

Hey, other programs in the state, let's go, let's do that too, to make it acceptable statewide.

And let's change this equity issue.

It's an easy change.

- So urban education, as someone who grew up in Newark, New Jersey, educated as a young man as a boy in Newark, in the public schools of Newark.

And then at a certain point shifting gears because it didn't work for me my father was a public school teacher his two sisters, public school teachers.

We kind of come from a family of public school teachers.

There's a question here, I promise.

With urban communities being as complex and challenging as they are and urban schools being complex and challenging as they are, the need is what it is.

But professor is the demand, the attractiveness of teaching in an urban school what it could and should be?

- I would certainly hope so.

I mean that there's also, what are the strengths and the beauties and the joys that we have within urban ed too, right?

Oftentimes that's left out of what cities have in terms of, you know, diversity and language and culture and what all those students bring to a classroom.

And so what is great often, especially within urban sectors in New Jersey, is they're well-paying spaces and there's lots of opportunity for teaching and for growth within teaching in different directions, right?

So right now in Newark to start is a $62,000 salary - To start?

- To start.

There are a lot, you can go down south and most teachers are working 20,000 less than that, right?

And might be seasoned.

So there actually are some really great financial benefits to teaching within urban sectors that people don't necessarily always remember.

But it's more than that, right?

Most people don't get - A few seconds left.

Go ahead.

The other reasons why it's attractive.

Go ahead.

30 seconds.

- Other reasons why it's attractive.

It gives you opportunity, it gives you flexibility.

Urban sectors have a lot of choice in terms of different public schools 'cause there's a larger districts.

So it also gives you to find your right fit of where you wanna teach, what works for you, what works for that school community that school's located in.

- Dr. Lynette Mawhinney is one of the top experts in this nation when it comes to urban education.

And then we're honored to have her with us and she will be back again, I promise.

Professor and chair of the Department of Urban Education at University of Newark.

Professor, I wanna thank you so much for joining us.

We appreciate it.

We'll continue the conversation, okay?

- Sounds great.

- We'll see you next time.

I'm Steve Adubato.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

PSC.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Investors Foundation.

PSE&G, Hackensack Meridian Health.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

New Jersey'’s Clean Energy program.

And by Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

Promotional support provided by Northjersey.com and Local IQ.

And by BestofNJ.com.

- I'm Tim Sullivan, CEO of the New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

Since joining the NJEDA, I've been struck by the incredible assets and resources that New Jersey has to offer.

The NJEDA is working every day to grow New Jersey's economy in a way that maximizes the values of those assets to benefit every single New Jersey resident.

This includes more support for small businesses and a focus on reclaiming New Jersey's position as a leader in the innovation economy.

Visit njeda.com to learn more about how NJEDA is building a stronger and fairer New Jersey economy.