♪ >> Hello and welcome to another edition of Canada Files .

I'm Jim Deeks.

Our guest this week is truly a renaissance man.

Especially in the fields of marketing and entertainment.

Toronto-based but widely travelled, Barry Avrich has more than 60 credits as a producer, director and writer of films and documentaries.

An author of three books and a marketing guru who has advised some of the biggest companies and prestigious art organizations in North America.

As the old saying goes, Barry's contact list is as long as your driveway.

>> Barry Avrich, thank you for joining us on Canada Files .

>> My pleasure.

>> We'll get into specifics in a moment.

In the intro I just did, I've described you as somewhat of a renaissance man in the areas of marketing and entertainment.

When I look over the list-- you've been a writer, producer, director, creative advertiser, promoter, stage manager and a philanthropist, among many other labels, I'm sure have been pinned on you.

Let me ask you, when you meet somebody for the first time at a reception or cocktail party.

They say, "Barry, what do you do?"

What do you answer?

>> I don't talk to people anymore.

I don't feel that I have to, on that end of it.

Generally if I see people making their way over to me, I tend to go to the bar.

I've led this hybrid life of being in advertising and the film business my entire career.

Many people still say, "Well, you have to choose".

Why?

I can be creative in 30 seconds or 90 minutes.

Or whatever it is that I'm working on.

We just finished filming Three Tall Women ...doing the post-production on Three Tall Women .

Martha Henry's last performance.

>> Which we're going to release this fall.

>> A great Canadian actress.

>> Spectacular!

Legendary.

American--came to Canada Performed some of the greatest Stratford roles ever.

Long Day's Journey.

The Tempest.

First female Prospero , I think.

...there's been so many career highlights in both careers.

I never really want to choose.

>> When you first started out, after you left university, did you want or expect all those various labels to ultimately be applied to yourself?

Or did you have one singular ambition at the start?

>> I just wanted to tell stories.

When I first got out of university, I had many people telling me, you're not going to find a career in entertainment in this country.

You have the National Film Board making films about the gestation period of the beaver.

And other television one / two camera shows on CBC .

You have to get out and get to the United States.

You're just not going to succeed in this country!

That wasn't an option for me.

I didn't have any money... certainly not any connections then in Los Angeles or New York.

I just had to find my path.

Started making short films.

Got a job at an ad agency.

Started producing and directing tv commercials with no experience.

People would say, "Here's the commercial that we need."

I didn't even know what they were talking about.

My first job in advertising was working for Ed Mirvish.

And the famous Royal Alexander Theatre in Toronto.

I got a phone call.

My boss was away.

It was legendary impresario, Gino Empry.

Handled publicity for the theatre.

He called on behalf of Ed Mirvish.

Screamed and yelled where my boss was.

He said, "Look, Chorus Line is coming to town at the Royal Alex.

It's going to be here in July.

I need a radio buy and see it on my desk immediately.

I didn't know what a radio buy was.

I knew A Chorus Line --one of the first musicals I had seen.

Literally had to call up somebody at a radio station and say, "What's a radio buy and what does he mean by 30 seconds" So I learned very quickly... became addicted at eight.

But just to be here in Toronto and work on great theatre.

Les Mizand the Garth Dabrinsky years of Livent.

Simultaneously, going on to make close to 60 films.

It's been a helluva ride.

>> Take us back to the age of eight.

When you said you were already addicted to entertainment.

What got your interest in entertainment?

Most kids growing up in Montreal back in the '60s wanted to be hockey players.

What was the lure of entertainment?

>> The hockey players on my street said, "Why don't you try entertainment?"

Sports and me were never going to be anything that worked well together.

My father loved show business!

He wasn't in the business.

Took me at the age of 8 or 9 to audition for a minstrel show at the local theatre in town being produced by an old vaudeville producer named Sam Miller.

His son, Joey Miller, became a fairly well-known composer.

He brought me in to audition for him.

I learned a song.

They heard me sing.

I joke about this all the time.

I had to learn What the World Needs Now .

My mother helped me read the music and learn the song.

I went in, sang one note.

Sam Miller, the show's producer director said, "We're going to do comedy."

I became the comedy host over 3 weekends of this variety show.

I loved it!

My father sent me fake telegrams from The Tonight Show .

And other network shows: "We're giving you a 3-year contract."

I loved it!

I didn't have a plan.

But alright, Toronto is the next place.

Let me figure out a way to make this crazy life work.

>> You mentionned your father who clearly had an influence on you as a young boy.

On your personal website, you actually refer to some advice that your dad gave you when you were a young man.

I will quote, "I don't care what you do with your life.

>> But make sure you never blend in."

>> Right.

>> Has that been a mantra for you all your life.

For that matter, what is so wrong with blending in?

>> There's nothing wrong with blending in for most people.

But as Canadians, you have to figure out how to come in and own the room!

I do!

You don't have to.

But that was the choice I made.

Because we have the stigma as Canadians, especially in the entertainment industry.

Of never being accepted.

I've had this conversation with everybody from Jim Carrey to Catherine O'Hara to some of the greats in the industry.

Why did you leave?

They just never felt accepted in their own country.

I still feel that.

And I stayed!

>> We'll talk about you staying a bit later.

I want to skip forward.

After about 15 years in marketing and advertising, you stayed in that business.

But you started to devote more of your time to documentary film-making.

One of the first productions you did was on Lou Wasserman.

Who had died about three years before.

This was the early 2000s.

He had been the notoriously private and ultra powerful boss of MCA Universal.

Even though he had died, it was still courageous of you to take him on as a documentary subject.

What was it about Lou Wasserman that fascinated you?

>> The film was called The Last Mogul .

2005, I had made about three documentaries prior to that.

Then wanted a big entrée card into Hollywood.

How can I make a film that wasn't Canadian?

Had Canadian connections but ultimately announced that I was going to be a documentary film-maker in the US.

How do I figure that out?

Lou Wasserman, most powerful man in Hollywood, I had seen him at a party 1.5 years before he died.

I said, "I'm going to make a film about you".

He pushed his thumb into my neck and said, "Not while I'm alive and not while I'm dead."

People said you'll never get it made or done.

The New York Times said "hand from the grave".

Because while making the film, I was threatened by his family.

I was followed.

We were changing hotel rooms to move the shot footage.

Because Lou and his family was still powerful.

Mob connections-- all that stuff.

I wanted to make it because people said it wouldn't be done.

And that his story, a poor guy from Cleveland re-defining an industry-- how contracts were negotiated.

How studio deals were made.

Syndication.

Television.

The movie of the week... on and on.

He was it!

So off I went.

>> And it was a very successful production.

>> Yeah.

It got me attention.

It was a calling card to say, okay, he made The Last Mogul .

>> Talking about difficult subjects, just a few years after that, you took on a documentary about Harvey Weinstein.

This was at a time 2008-2009, when Harvey was at the height of his personal power in Hollywood.

You could easily have had your knees broken trying to get that documentary off the ground.

But you did it.

How did you do it?

>> Well, I did have my knees broken.

Thankfully, through a lot of therapy, I'm here to tell the story.

Harvey Weinstein, when I made that film called U nauthorized.

...was at the time of his career where his power was fading.

which gave me the entrée.

Where he just couldn't really block it.

He does end up getting the trump card, I hate to use that word.

He does defuse the film, to a certain degree.

But I basically, as I do... because I'm a marketing PR guy.

I announce to the New York Times that I'm making the film.

Then the war began.

You can't make it yet.

I haven't been in Act 3 yet.

You gotta wait.

But it was too late.

I announced I was making it.

I'd raised the money to make it.

He threatened me.

We ended up having one of these great Mafia-like meetings in Los Angeles the night before the Oscars.

Where he was...almost his huge comeback with The King's Speech .

We had this huge meeting in LA.

He kept pitching ideas for other films.

I said, "Harvey, I'm done.

We've made it."

How about this?

How about that?

I'm going to make it..the film.

He goes, "Well, one day I'm going to show up at your house with a camera crew and you'll see how you like it."

I said "Well then, sit down and do an interview with me."

What have you got to lose?

You've done due diligence on me.

You've seen the other films I've made.

You saw The Last Mogul .

But he wouldn't hear of it.

So here's what he did.

Which was interesting... we make the film.

During the Toronto Film Festival he had a major network in the US-- IFC Films, make me an offer I couldn't refuse...literally.

Speaking of the Godfather.

Offered me more money for a documentary than I'd ever seen before.

I should have known.

We signed the agreement on the hood of a car in Toronto.

Somewhere.

We had a big party and it was exciting.

Then I got called to New York to meet with IFC-- the head of IFC at the time had a large yellow legal pad with changes he wanted for the film.

I said, "Sounds to me like you've conferred with Harvey."

Well, we have.

Harvey's best friend owns the IFC, James Dolan.

I said, "I'm sorry.

I'm happy to give you the money back."

My lawyers were, "What do you mean, give the money back?"

"Are you crazy?"

I said this is ridiculous so we compromised.

I can't tell you on air because of your esteemed audience and these air waves, what they gave in on.

I felt I got the upper hand.

However, they would air the film at times of the morning where you would see infomercials for Saint Bernards that are in desperate need of homes, or things like that.

>> You never saw the film.

So he won.

>> He won at that point.

But 6 - 7 years later, you did a subsequent documentary on Harvey Weinstein.

>> This is after his world had begun to fall apart... >> Months after.

>> Because of all the women that came forward accusing him of rape and harassment.

Did you know this aspect of his life when you did the first one?

If you did, how did you not put it into the first one?

>> It's a great question.

It's one of the reasons I made The Reckoning .

>> Which is the second one.

>> Correct.

For CBC in Canada and on Hulu in the US.

Was that my conscience bothered me.

So the film Unauthorized , whether or not people had seen it, was hardly a fluff piece on Harvey.

But it was laudatory about his career on that end of it.

But it bothered me that it was going to be the only record attached to my name on Harvey.

Versus all of the allegations proven to be true later.

I knew I had to come back.

So The Reckoning is very much Harvey.

But it also looked at the entire industry.

Back to your question of what did I know.

There were a ton of rumours circulating around Harvey when I made my film.

Tons of them!

What would happen is...he's still powerful, don't forget.

I would bring it up with the people that would sit before me.

They would go, "Could you turn the camera off?"

None of them would go on record.

None of them.

So what can I literally say?

I talked about his temper.

The late great director, George Hickenlooper, talked about Harvey's obsession...sexual obsessions.

How Harvey would insist on directing sex scenes.

So you see a certain side of him, in that way.

But I couldn't blow the lid of anything.

A bunch of reporters had the story too!

This was six years earlier.

Nobody can go there.

Threatened by his lawyers.

He sent a publicist to sit in on one of the interviews.

People were cancelling while making the first film, because of that.

The great Merchant, James Ivory, Howards End, called me from a subway when we were making the first film, "I just can't do it."

Nobody else is buying my films in Hollywood other than Harvey.

I said, "Jim, you know what it is to set up a whole crew."

"Give me a break!"

He said, "Alright, fine."

He came and he was great.

But I couldn't deliver the goods in the first film.

Bothered me.

So The Reckoning was the answer to that.

The Reckoningwas not an easy road for me.

I was the first documentary that looked at the #MeToo movement.

Nobody wanted it.

Here's what would happen.

I, or my team, would go to studios with it.

They'd say, "Mmmm...you're turning a mirror around to us."

"Showing what we look like."

Then I would get an offer from a famous streamer.

The offer would come in and they would have their own allegations of #MeToo a week later.

We can't take the film.

Hulu was the bravest one who finally took it.

But it was too early for people.

Nobody really wants to watch these kinds of films.

I had the same situation many years before Jeffrey Epstein.

Before he killed himself and anybody knew who he was.

I knew the story...and was pitching a documentary on him.

I had the inside on so much stuff.

Couldn't sell it!

No-one knew of him.

They couldn't care less.

He wasn't arrested a 2nd time yet.

Even the series that was ultimately done, nobody really liked watching.

>> You have done other controversial figures.

Maybe not as controversial in the #MeToo movement area.

You've done people-- the fallen Canadian theatre impresario, Garth Drabinsky with whom you were quite close.

>> Yes.

>> You've done the late publisher of Penthouse magazine.

But you've also done some non-controversial people in your documentaries.

The Nuremberg prosecutor, Ben Ferencz.

Comedians Howard Mandel and David Steinberg, also Canadian.

Music producer, David Foster...Canadian.

Rock concert promoter, Michael Cohl So you've done both sides of the fence, as it were, with prominent and successful people.

And prominent and perhaps more questionable people.

Who are the ones along the way that have fascinated or inspired you most?

>> All of them...

I don't really make films by commission.

I pick films that interest me, in terms of people and stories that should be told.

Always with 10 ounces of what's commercial.

I want people to see it.

If they're going to make something about somebody that nobody's ever heard of.

Ben Ferencz had been on 60 Minutes .

I was shocked there wasn't a documentary at 100 years old.

I had to make it.

But it's always somebody I want to meet.

Now I'm working with this extraordinarily talented producer, Mark Selby.

We spend countless hours a day putting together our wish and dream lists.

Laughing and joking about who we want to make films on.

I always say to him, "Don't threaten me."

I don't think there isn't a project that I've wanted to make that hasn't gotten made... we find a way to do it.

>> One of your most recent documentaries you mentionned, is Oscar Peterson.

Who was the great Canadian jazz pianist.

Your documentary covered his life and impact.

He was a god in the world of jazz.

But not all that widely-known outside that world.

What fascinated you so much about Oscar?

>> Mark Selby, my producer, and I were sitting around thinking about subject matters.

Mark is such a talented musician.

He plays piano like the gods.

I don't.

I always wanted to play piano.

...I always come back to that basement in Montreal.

To that teak cabinet and that horrible wood fake faux panelled basement.

Think about the albums I would escape to that my parents had.

Sarah, Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald.

Some comedian albums.

Certainly Oscar Peterson was one of them.

One of us blurted out the idea of Oscar Peterson.

Checked immediately if there's been a documentary on him.

What's out there on him?

Pitched it to the network in Canada.

Now it's on Hulu in the US.

And off we went.

I'm a big proponent of telling stories of Canadians.

We're just not good at telling our own stories.

Shows like this-- thank god they exist.

We're not great at it.

If there's a Mount Rushmore of jazz, then Oscar should be on it.

A reason he's not widely-known-- when you think jazz, you think of the greats, Oscar is one of them.

One reason why is he decided to stay in Canada.

It's not unlike Norman Jewison.

One of the great film directors of all time.

Thinking of great directors... having that conversation in Los Angeles or New York, the name doesn't come up as often as it should.

Same with Oscar but he decided to make Canada his home.

So you live with that.

>> I described you in the intro by saying you have a contact list rolodex as long as your driveway.

You've described a lot of the people that you've known, worked with, and bumped into over the years, in your book.

Moguls, Monsters and Madmen .

They don't all fall into those categories.

Of all the people you've known and worked with over the years, who are some that have inspired you along the way.

>> Two of the greats for me, Tony Bennett and Quincy Jones.

Without a doubt.

Quincy in that he's just a great listener.

He would spend tons of time with me.

There was one in particular when I was going through a very difficult time in my life.

He literally held my hands in his house in LA and said, "Don't you understand that every beautiful picture starts with a negative."

>> What an interesting thought.

>> I wept a little.

With Quincy, breakfast is at 4:00 in the afternoon.

I learned early on that you never make plans.

Because you're going to spend the next 14 hours with him.

Great life lessons.

Tony Bennett is somebody I respect in terms of how he looked after his instrument--his voice, elegance.

Another great listener.

A sensational showman.

I've seen from Sinatra, Céline-- I've had the great opportunities to meet all these people.

Tony is fantastic.

Céline Dion is another one who... people have their own perceptions of her.

Could she really be that nice?

100 percent.

I started with her.

Brought her to Toronto to do a job with American Express.

As Beauty and the Beast was coming out in 1991.

I couldn't have met a more humble person.

Cared about what was going on in my life as in hers.

Fast forward to the David Foster documentary.

Where she was equally fabulous and caring.

She was in this bone broth phase at that time.

She'd say, "Barry, you're eating too much red licorice."

"You have to switch to bone broth."

Had it there.

Fabulous, great career, giving.

Back to Quincy, he instilled a sense of the alchemy of life.

Which was "live, love, laugh and give back".

He said, "Let's start with each word and talk about that."

It sounds cliché and hackneyed but you spend time with him dissecting those words and you say, "He's seen and done it all.

He's worth listening to."

> On the subject of giving back, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about one or some of the philanthropic projects that you've been involved with, over the last 25-30 years.

What are some, or one, of those projects that stand out for you?

That you're most proud of.

>> ... as part of the Quincy give-back thing, and it's not like I have the means to be as philanthropic as I liked to be.

Philanthropy could be I sponsored somebody in a marathon run in LA for a bit of money.

Every nickel adds up.

I learned that working with a Canadian opera company.

Somebody called in to make a donation for $5.00.

We were all taught that $5.00 could end up becoming $500,000.

Which it did with that one caller.

They offered the caller on the phone a tour of the new Four Seasons Centre in Toronto-- Canadian Opera House.

She came down and was so blown away, she made her donation $500,000.

Big difference!

The two things that stand out for philanthropy are creating a program for young film-makers at the Toronto Film Festival in my father's name.

Which gave young film-makers an opportunity to attend the film festival-- get free industry passes Did that for 10 years.

My father would have loved that.

Then I followed up with supporting a new initiative in the film festival last year for black film makers.

To get their films marketed and exposed during the festival.

The major one was establishing the Daniels Hollywood Theatre at the Toronto Sick Kids Hospital.

It's the first movie theatre in a hospital that shows first-run films for patients.

Children in the hospital.

Jeff Katzenberg and Ellis Jacob from Cineplex in Canada were there from the beginning when we launched that.

We just secured a major gift to rebuild it when the new building goes up in Toronto.

By the same donors, the Daniels family-- Myrna and John Daniels.

I'm very proud of that, to be there that opening day.

Watch children come down that couldn't leave that building.

Some that never have left that building.

To see Shrek 2 open was just spectacular for me.

>> Last question.

One I ask all guests on Canada Files.

But it will be a very interesting answer from you.

What does being Canadian mean to you?

>> Being Canadian to me means opportunity.

Insecurity complex.

Freedom.

Being extraordinarily distinctive and creative.

>> You're the first guest that's ever said insecurity complex.

But it's a very valid point about all of us.

We're very proud of ourselves but at the same time, we don't like to really talk about ourselves.

>> What you don't know is I have another film crew here.

Filming all of this.

We're going to re-edit this entire segment.

And send it to you.

Everything changed about me.

Looks better.

You'll get the whole segment in two days.

>> No insecurity there.

This has been a real pleasure.

>> Thank you so much for joining.

>> Anytime, Jim.

>> Thank you for joining us on Canada Files.

We'll see you again with the next episode.

♪