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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato, for the entire half hour, we're gonna be engaged in a stimulating, engaging, important conversation with one of our favorite authors out there.

She's Batya Ungar-Sargon, she's a columnist for the Free Press and author of "Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women."

Good to see you, my friend.

- Thank you so much for having me back.

It is such a pleasure and a privilege to be here with you.

- You got it, let's get right to this.

The Big Beautiful whatever.

(Batya laughs) We are taping in the middle of July.

It already happened, it got passed.

Tell us what you like about it and then tell us where you have a problem with that legislation, which is now law impacting so many Americans at so many levels, please, Batya.

- So when I was reporting my book "Second Class," I was traveling around the country and interviewing hundreds of working class Americans from both political parties.

And what I found was there was a really astonishing consensus among working class Americans, whether they voted Democrat or Republican about what their top issues were.

And everybody pretty much agreed, there were a few exceptions, but by and large, almost everybody I spoke to told me they wanted much less immigration and much more access to healthcare.

So you see how they get kind of dropped between the cracks, right?

Because you've got one party that's really strong on immigration and one party that's really strong on healthcare.

But the healthcare party, the Democrats, are quite weak on immigration and meanwhile, the Republicans really don't talk about healthcare.

So when I look at the Big Beautiful Bill, I saw two things that really stood out to me.

There is massive funding of ICE and mass deportations, which are very popular with working class people.

Indeed, the majority of Americans want every single illegal migrant deported, but also the bill, it kept tax cuts for the very wealthy.

- That's where I was going.

- And it threatened Medicaid for a lot of people.

And the threats to Medicaid include, of course, threats to rural hospitals, which rely on that Medicaid.

So it seemed to me that the Republicans, despite having won the majority of working class voters in 2024, this bill was really muscle memory for when they used to be the party of the rich.

It did very good things on immigration, but very bad in terms of that healthcare piece.

And as you say, it raised the deficit, whereas in my mind, what I was campaigning for was raising taxes on the top income bracket because that is what would be fitting for a party that is now the party of the working class and use that to pay down the deficit.

So it was very much a mixed bag for me.

- So interesting, and one of the reasons we appreciate our conversations with Batya is that she's, I don't wanna say as if being ideologue is a bad thing, Batya does not ascribe to, I'm with MAGA, I'm not with MAGA, she deals with the issues and she can pick apart this law, what she likes, what she doesn't like, and in that regard, I wanna push this a little further.

For the people you went out and by the way, fascinating book, check it out.

Batya didn't interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people across this country.

To what extent, and a disproportionate of people, number of people you interviewed voted for Donald Trump.

To what degree do you think most Americans, working class, middle Americans who voted for Donald Trump understood that his primary interest on tax policy was to continue that 2017 tax cut for the wealthiest Americans, to continue to do it and to do that you needed money from somewhere else and that has a lot to do with the Medicaid cuts, point being, did Donald Trump... Was he honest with people about what his agenda would be vis-a-vis the wealthiest elites, as you talk about in your book?

- What's really amazing about the American working class is they have very little class resentment against the very, very rich.

So they don't sit there the way that like the educated elites sit there sort of fuming that there are billionaires.

Working class people often see billionaires as jobs creators.

They admire them, they wanna be like them.

They think that they are a net boon to industry.

So they don't have that sort of class resentment that you will find when you're talking to doctors and lawyers and journalists, people who are in that educated, professional managerial class, the top 10% who really, really have a lot of class resentment against like the private jet set.

So the first class cabin has immense class resentment against the people who fly, you know, private, but the people in economy have a lot less resentment to the people who fly private.

They have a lot of class resentment towards the people in first class who they correctly surmise, sneer at them.

So I think that people feel quite overall, quite satisfied with the direction that the country is going, and you have to understand that, you know, these last hundred days of the president, the last, you know, eight months, the first eight months of the second Trump term have been unbelievably, unbelievably positive and effective in terms of getting working class people the things that they voted for.

The president has been making good on promise, after promise, after promise.

So now, I think that the Republicans stand to lose potentially in the midterms because people will lose their Medicaid.

But by and large, the feeling is this is a president who promised to close the border and he did it.

He promised mass deportations and he's doing it.

He promised to raise working class wages and he did it.

He promised to end wars and he did it.

So they see that as unbelievably effective on behalf of the president making good on the mandate and on the promises even people I think who agree with me, who didn't like this bill very much, you know, they're not really gonna hold it against him too much, I don't think.

- One of the things I've always appreciated about you is the ability to have an important conversation even if people disagree, and here's where I'm going with this.

Do you think most Americans who voted for President Trump knew that he would engage in what many have argued is a campaign of quote retribution?

What I mean by that is going after your enemies.

Going after law firms who (scoffs) were somehow representing certain people on January 6th, which is what law firms do, right?

Or representing people who were aggrieved on January 6th, going after universities, Harvard and others that he doesn't like their their academic policies or whatever and threatening funding, going after those of us in the media, the enemy of the people as he often calls us.

Is that really... You think that's very popular with most people, and if so, why would that be?

- I think that doesn't touch their lives at all.

This is like inter-elite squabbling, you know?

So like you and I could sit here and say, we don't like that he's going after the law firms, but if you think a single mom, you know, living in Western Pennsylvania who's working three jobs and barely surviving cares if Donald Trump sues, you know, or signs an executive order against, you know, multi-billion dollar law firm, like they don't care about that, like nobody's paying attention to that.

The Harvard stuff I think is unbelievably popular because, again, they correctly surmise that these elite universities are the places where the contempt for the working class is manufactured and, I mean, I feel great about that.

I love seeing him going after those snobs at Harvard who were, you know, part of the place where all of the policy that destroyed working class life in this country was hatched.

Where people graduate from there, hating America, hating the Jews, hating Israel, and hating the working class.

Good, go after them.

Why do they deserve $2 billion of taxpayer money?

I think that is overwhelmingly very popular with people who don't have a degree.

- Batya, Harvard may be easy because they're very, very rich, have a lot of money and reserves, but there are other universities, not as wealthy, who are now questioning whether the academic freedom that universities have had, whether those of us in the media engage in meaningful conversation that is sometimes critical in questioning of the administration, which is what our job is, you're saying that the average person doesn't care if the president is going after those universities, going after us in the media because it doesn't affect them.

But don't we understand that that's not the premise of the United States Constitution Free Press or freedom of the press, free speech?

Just because it's not a popular thing or people don't care about it doesn't make it okay.

- You know, if the administration is doing something that's not constitutional, someone should bring that before the Supreme Court and make them back off of it.

So far, the Trump administration has not contravened a single Supreme Court directive.

So if there is something unconstitutional here, someone should bring that in a court of law.

For now, it seems like that has not been the case with the universities and I have to say, in terms of the media, you know, I love you, I love this show, I love what you do and what you bring to the table, much of the media is not like that.

They have simply closed their doors to anybody who supports this president, which is half of the country, 80 million Americans have been smeared and sneered at in the mainstream media.

So, you know, there's a question of constitutionality, I completely agree with you, that should be dictated by the courts, but on the cultural side of things, they should have empathy and sympathy for the millionaires in the mainstream liberal media who sneered at them from their perch of immense privilege, I don't think that that's realistic or moral to expect that.

- To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We have a series called "Media Leadership," a mini series, the graphic will come up.

And part of the reason for media, this "Media Leadership" series, is because from my perspective, there's not enough meaningful leadership in media.

And part of that, in my view, and again, I'm not here to express an opinion on a soapbox, but I will say this, is having different people with different points of view, a very civil, engaging, substantive conversation, why is that?

And I'm not looking for compliments, oh, we're different from others, but I will say this, for a significant number of our colleagues in the media, I know what I'm gonna get on that station, reading that newspaper, reading that website, looking at a digital whatever platform it is, I know what I'm gonna get.

It is so predictable because it's the echo chamber of people talking to each other.

One of the things I appreciate about you is I'll see you on more conservative, if you will, right leaning media, and then you joining us on public television.

Question in this, I promise, why do you think it's so rare to just have conversations with people of different points of view?

Why is that the exception?

- That's what my first book was about, "Bad News: How Woke Media's Undermining Democracy," and I argue that the reason our media is so bifurcated is not because it's political so much as because there was a class revolution in the kinds of people who became journalists.

Journalism used to be a working class trade.

Today, 95% of journalists have a college degree.

The majority have a graduate degree, which puts them in the extreme minority of Americans.

They make a lot of money if they can make it in this industry.

So it's become this caste.

You either have to be born into it or be born into wealth in order to become a journalist.

And we've seen this political realignment to where wealthier Americans who used to be Republicans are now Democrats and not just Democrats, the most wealthy Americans are the most progressive in their views, the most far left radical in their cultural views.

And so the media has been peopled by... Staffed by people who come from a small leftist elite and that staffing problem met digital media where success is not measured in terms of how many different kinds of people you can get to read your paper, success in digital media is measured in terms of engagement.

How many likes, how many retweets, how many comments, and, of course, the most extreme viewers and readers are the most engaged.

So you end up with a situation where journalism was being produced by over credentialed rich progressives for over credentialed rich progressives, which created this very monotonous, we only wanna see this tiny, very narrow view that we ascribe to and anybody outside of it is a Nazi, that's effectively what happened since- - But how would that.. Batya, I'm so sorry for interrupting, but let me ask you, how do you think that's any different, what you're describing?

Than how is it different from other very right, MAGA leaning media platforms who do the exact same thing, but only with a different point of view, how's that any different?

- So in response to the mainstream liberal media being captured by this woke left elite, you have this more online, more sort of podcast, YouTube online digital media crop up to counterbalance it.

I totally agree with you.

You don't have very much debate on that side either, although you do have more.

You have much more debate on Fox News than you do on CNN, but you don't, you know, they create...

They, you know, that whole right-wing media sphere evolved because half the country had no media.

They had been basically abandoned by the liberal mainstream media who wanted only to cater to the top 10% of other progressive elites.

So you're totally right, but basically, what I'm arguing is that it is actually the class divide masquerading as a political divide.

- I'm sorry, I'm obsessed by this media thing, so I apologize for those who are like, "Why is Adubato talking so much about media?"

Because I'm trying to figure out what our role is, how we can be helpful, and how we can have actual meaningful conversations with people who have different points of view along those lines.

Tariffs, Trump-centric tariffs, the unpredictability of tariffs and the people you're most concerned about, working men and women, please.

- Oh, they love tariffs.

They love- - They love them?

- They love- - Even if the prices go up for certain goods?

- They love...

I'm gonna tell you what a truck driver told me recently.

He said to me, "So you're telling me I'm gonna pay a little more for things now, but my kid is gonna have a better job, maybe in a factory, maybe in AI, maybe in one of these reshored industries, and you think I'm gonna turn that down?

A sacrifice I can make now on behalf of my children's future, you think I'm gonna say no to that?

That's what working class life is.

It is sacrificing for our children.

Like that view of like... You're telling me, all I have to do is pay a little more for some goods and my kids will have a better future?"

That is what the president has offered them.

It's wildly popular.

First of all, the inflation that matters to working class people, they don't care if a new iPhone costs more because they're not buying a new iPhone every year, they're buying a new iPhone every 10 years, okay?

Again, they're not in the elites.

They don't care if there are tariffs on Rolls Royce cars, right?

They care if there's inflation in food and in gas and in housing.

Like that is where the inflation hurts the working class.

Everything else is luxury goods as far as their concerned.

- Hold on, Batya.

- So food- - For people who own those businesses, those entrepreneurs who are not elites, and they're saying, "We don't know where the heck this tariff thing is going.

It's up and down and in and out and the president threatens and then he pulls it back."

So they're having a very difficult time running their business and you care about those folks as well.

- So let me finish the point about the inflation- - Right.

- And then I wanna talk about small businesses.

- Please.

- We produce 75% of the food that we consume as a nation.

Gas prices have been going down and the cost of real estate is very tied, first of all, to the Fed, but second of all, to other things like zoning.

So those three areas are the only things that working class people literally cannot afford any kind of inflation there.

But those are not, in any way, impacted by tariffs.

The so-called inflation, which never arrived, by the way, from the tariffs would've been in other things that we import from China, cheap stuff that you can choose not to consume, small businesses.

I totally agree with you.

There is a certain number of small businesses that built their entire business model on importing cheap materials or cheap products from China.

Unfortunately, their success came at the expense of their working class American neighbors that was never going to be sustainable.

We sold out our future to China.

They own half of our debt, it's insane, but it was never gonna be sustainable.

That all of our pharmaceuticals are made by our greatest adversary.

That our ships are made by our greatest adversary.

That we're completely, completely tied to China.

I mean, from a national security point of view, this was totally unsustainable.

We have to reshore certain manufacturing.

But yes, you're right that certain businesses succeeded off of the offshoring of manufacturing into China and Mexico.

Unfortunately, their success came at the expense of their neighbors and I feel comfortable saying that is no longer acceptable.

You had a good run, but you built a business model that was not going to be sustainable because it relied on the slave labor in another country.

I'm very sorry about that.

- Batya I have a few minutes left, I wanna cover a couple other issues.

Go back to the legislation that has become law.

One of the pieces of it that is real, substantive is SNAP, formerly known as food stamps.

In New Jersey, where we are based, right?

It's a national issue, but in New Jersey it's estimated that 800,000 New Jerseyans rely on SNAP.

That's supplemental nutrition dollars.

Those are not elites, those are working people, those are struggling people.

You haven't mentioned that about the legislation and I didn't ask you about it, but I am now.

What concerns do you have about cuts in SNAP, food stamps?

- I mean, can you tell me more?

How much of it is being cut?

- The exact dollars?

I don't have those figures, but 800,000 according to the Congressional Budget Office.

The significant cuts in SNAP, Supplemental Nutrition Support Programs, 800,000 of those people in New Jersey rely on SNAP.

And if you're not prepared to talk about it, that's fine, but that is- - No, but I mean, how many are gonna lose it in the Big Beautiful Bill?

- In New Jersey, where we are, 800,000 New Jerseyans rely on SNAP.

- Yeah, but you're saying they rely on SNAP.

- Yes.

- How many are gonna lose it?

- You know, Batya, I don't know the exact number and I'm not gonna turn this around to be the policy expert on this, but- - Also I don't think that...

I mean, I didn't see anything in the bill about that.

But, I mean furthermore, I wouldn't compare... To me, food stamps and healthcare are not comparable because, you know, the food stamps...

I mean, I support people who really are totally broke getting food stamps, but if there is fraud there, I'm very comfortable with the government saying we're gonna do a deep dive in...

It's not like healthcare, where like literally an act of God could cost you under our current circumstances like a $100,000, like healthcare system is very different.

I think there's this view that healthcare is somehow like a choice that you make, it's not.

It's something that...

It's a choice God makes for you whether you need healthcare right now or not and so I feel very strongly that even people who are scamming the system to get Medicaid should pretty much be allowed to do that.

Because if they don't have that healthcare, either their broke family is gonna have to pay for it or they're gonna end up in the emergency room, which we're gonna end up paying for anyway.

So I think healthcare is really in a separate... And this is how working class people feel.

I mean, according to my book, this is what people told me, they don't see healthcare as the same as welfare, as the same as food stamps, as the same as Section 8, as the same as other entitlements- - Section 8: Housing.

- It's sort of been a class of its own.

- I'm gonna say this, to many people, food insecurity, not having access to healthy food is in fact, I'm not gonna debate you on this, but it is a health issue.

And it's easy to say that if we have it, but if you don't, and those dollars are being cut off to get access to healthy food, that's real, that's real.

And whether most American support it or not isn't really the issue for me, it's what's the impact on those people.

And if you're saying that's separate from healthcare, I get that, but it's not an insignificant issue.

- I mean, I... You know, I volunteer at a soup kitchen so I see it firsthand, but I also know that this country is full of ways to get adequate nutrition.

So I feel less exercise about that.

I would like to see the numbers.

I did not see this discussed and this could just be my own ignorance when I was looking at the bill and what's in it, I didn't see people in significant numbers being kicked off of those programs.

I saw it more in terms of Medicaid and in terms of rural hospitals.

- You are anything, but ignorant.

Because there are so many aspects to this legislation.

Batya, we will have you back, I promise.

- Thank you so much.

- An important substantive conversation, we need more of that.

I cannot thank you enough.

Batya Ungar-Sargon, the author of "Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women."

Also, check out her other... She's writing columns, articles, commentary, all the time.

Batya, as always, thank you for joining us, we appreciate it.

- Thank you so much.

God bless you, thank you for everything you do.

- Same to you.

I'm Steve Adubato, thanks for watching, we'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by New Jersey Sharing Network.

Congress Hall.

A Cape Resorts property.

Delta Dental of New Jersey.

NJM Insurance Group.

Johnson & Johnson.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Bergen New Bridge Medical Center.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

And by Rutgers University Newark.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by CIANJ, and Commerce Magazine.

- NJM Insurance Group has been serving New Jersey businesses for over a century.

As part of the Garden State, we help companies keep their vehicles on the road, employees on the job and projects on track, working to protect employees from illness and injury, to keep goods and services moving across the state.

We're proud to be part of New Jersey.

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