On this episode of Roots, Race and Culture.

As demographics change within the LDS church, what is the average experience of black members?

We're talking about the gospel.

Or are we talking about the church organization?

Because those are two very different things, especially for those of African descent, because we are here for the gospel.

Yes, sir.

You know, that's that's why we're here.

I'm black all my life.

I don't need to be black.

And I ain't gonna be black in any church.

I want to be in.

But I'm black in this church.

All of this and more on Roots, Race and Culture.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Roots, Race and Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) - Hey everyone, and welcome to "Roots, Race and Culture," where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

I'm Lonzo Liggins.

- And I'm Danor Gerald.

Our show originates in Utah, which is known for the great salt lake, majestic national parks, and as the headquarters of a global religion that's uniquely American, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Today we'll discuss the good and bad experiences and history of African Americans within this traditionally White church.

- The church was officially organized in 1830 by Joseph Smith in New York State.

Smith later ran for president of the United States on an abolitionist platform.

But after his death, many of his followers went west, and the church's race policies went south, pun intended.

Brigham Young, the church's next leader, helped establish Utah as a slave territory and placed major restrictions on Black church members that didn't exist before.

- It wasn't until 1978 when the church allowed Black members to have full participation within the faith.

As a result, the conflicted history and shared experiences of Black Latter-day Saints is a dramatic intersection of race, culture, and religious beliefs.

So let's jump right in and meet our first guest.

- Dr.

LaShawn, would you like to introduce yourself?

- Sure thing, I'm LaShawn Williams.

I'm a licensed clinical social worker.

Have a 20-year career in higher ed here in the state of Utah.

Not originally from Utah, but I've lived here for a while.

Really happy to be here, thanks.

- So, I'm Mauli Bonner, originally from Las Vegas.

I lived in Utah for a year and a half.

And now I just, I'm here all the time, doing films.

So my background is in music.

I spend most of my career and time developing pop singers, and when I'm not doing that, I'm making films about Black history in the church.

- So let's jump right in, okay?

So this whole history really changed dramatically when they moved here to Utah, the history with African Americans.

There were actually Blacks who were able to hold the priesthood and things like that.

And then everything changed.

Do you guys have any ideas of why the restrictions got put in place?

- Yes.

- Well, let's hear it.

- Well, you're looking at the establishment of a religion that was in New York, but then needed to move, based on expulsion and based on exclusion.

And so you're looking at what it took for the church to figure out how it was going to insert itself into the functioning of the United States.

We're at 1830.

This is the height of chattel slavery in the country.

- Right.

- And so it's not uncommon, or unheard of that the church would figure out how are we going to be in the world, but not of the world.

- In the beginning, it was a much different beginning for the church.

1830s, you had Black priesthood holders.

1840s, Black priesthood holders.

And so a lot of people think 1978, that's when Black people could have full integration into the church and access to everything.

But that wasn't the case.

So it was good.

Everything was fine.

- Fine enough.

(all laughing) - Let me ask this as a person who's not completely familiar with the history of the church.

- [LaShawn] Yes.

- When were Blacks, when did Black people start to get involved with the church?

Because this was, the religion started when?

- 1830.

- 1830s.

- Or formally organized.

- Were they - - 1831.

- At the very beginning?

- 1831.

Black Pete.

So from the beginning.

- There's free Black people, which is mostly the history of our Black priesthood holders and Black families where people who were already free.

The church did run into some conflict around teaching the enslaved.

Because then if you teach them that they have agency and that they can be free, you might offend the enslavers.

And so there were conversations around doing less of that.

And so the focus, the shift focus to, or the focus shifted to, let's make sure we can bring the enslavers and not offend them, because we're going to need the capital that they bring with them because they're enslaving.

And that's gonna be an economic benefit to the church when it has to move west.

- Was it uncommon for Black people to be a part of a White church at that time?

- [Mauli] It was uncommon.

- Yes, very, very.

- So what the church was doing at that time was a little radical by having Black members.

- So that was my point earlier, was that it was progressive in the beginning.

Compared to the nation, and how it was operating.

So in the beginning, you had Black people who had equal standing as other White counterparts, in the 1830s before- - Which was practically unheard of.

- Why did they allow Black members in?

- Well, you have the prophet, Joseph Smith, who was saying, he said to Orson Hyde of the 12 Apostles at the time when Orson Hyde asked, "So what should a man do if he comes with 100 slaves?"

And Joseph said he should free them and join the church.

So you have this mindset of Joseph Smith, who's leading the church before he dies.

He passes away.

New leader, Brigham Young comes, and then things change.

- But then there's also set within the uniqueness of this religion, some pretty racially tense things.

So they have this scripture, a set, another volume of scripture, called the Book of Mormon, right?

And in the Book of Mormon, there are passages of these people who were transplants from Jerusalem over here to the Americas, and they're very racially tense.

So I'll go ahead and read this verse here.

"And he, God, had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity.

For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint, wherefore as they were White, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

All right, so you want to kind of explain that?

Deconstruct that a bit for our audience?

- Well, it's a highly controversial scripture.

It's a very easy one for folks to say, "But what about this?

This is what it says."

And people- - What does it say?

- It says that because of people's behaviors, because of things that they did, their relationship with God changed.

Now that's not how it's interpreted.

But if you actually read what it's saying, because they hardened their hearts, because they turned against Him, then they were cursed.

Not they were cursed, and then did all these things.

So people interpret this as your existence is cursed because you exist.

But what the scripture says is that behaviors are what caused the separation from God and His people.

- Wow.

- Is she right, Mauli?

What do you think?

- So here's the thing.

No, she's spot on.

- Okay.

- And the bottom line is this.

This has nothing to do with us Black folks.

- Absolutely.

- Like this, they're not even talking about Black people.

- No.

- So this really has nothing to do with us, but we do seem to be the receiving end of the damage, right?

- [LaShawn] Yes.

- [Danor] Right.

- It wasn't talking about Black people, no African descent, has nothing to do with us.

But that is how they describe those people then.

- You also have in this church, this teaching that everybody is a child of God.

How do they rationalize those two conflicting things?

Have you seen good people come around who say, "Hey, you know what?

This isn't the way it ought to be.

This isn't the way it is."

Or do you feel like that is still consistently being, constantly taught to the kids?

- It's interesting.

In 2020, where the racial uprising happened here in the US, in 2020.

So in the Latter-day Saint faith, they have a conference every April, every October.

And in the October conference, you have President Nelson who speaks up and says, "We need to root out racism and abandon attitudes and actions of prejudice."

That was October 4th or 5th, 2020.

- [Danor] Okay.

- October 27th, President Dallin H. Oaks gives a devotional at BYU, where this is the Dallin H. Oaks says "Black lives matter" speech that he gives.

And so now, if there were people who don't know what to believe and don't know how to believe differently, you have to look at what's happened that leadership of the church twice in one month, speaks to don't be racist, and has an apostle of the church saying, Black lives matter.

And he says, "Of course, Black lives matter.

Black lives matter is an eternal truth that all reasonable people should be able to accept."

He says, "God created people, all of us, to look how we look.

So there's no goodness or badness in how God created you."

So when Dallin H. Oaks says something that everybody was created to look how they look, 5:21 is turned on its face.

- [Danor] Right.

- The idea that you were cursed to become Black goes directly against what a prophet of the Lord has just said in 2020.

That you were all created exactly how you were, and exactly how you were identified to be.

So if you are Black, you were created Black.

And people don't go for nuance in these conversations.

- As we move forward, right?

- Yes.

- They have the skin of the blackness, and then all of a sudden there's this priest ban, this priesthood ban.

- [LaShawn] Yes.

- Where does that arise from?

- Even in 1847, you have Brigham Young who says, "One of the finest elders we have is an African from Lowell."

He was speaking of Quaker Walker Lewis, a Black man.

And around that same time, you had someone named William Applebee, who comes and reports, on his mission, he was sent to go and just make sure the church is running the way it's supposed to run.

And then he reports that there's race mixing.

And that he couldn't believe that this was happening.

And at that time, the science was, race mixing is the end of humanity.

Meaning like mulattos is what they would call 'em, right?

- A Black person, a White person- - A Black person, a White person.

That child wouldn't be able to have children.

Which is of course not true.

- Ridiculous, right?

- But that, after 1847, was the beginning of the change of the rhetoric.

'Cause in 1852 was when Brigham Young then speaks, countering himself in 1847.

- What does he say?

- He says that no Black person should have one jot or tittle of the priesthood.

None.

- What is the priesthood?

I don't know what that is.

I mean, I've heard this word, but what exactly is that?

Why is that so important?

- The significance of it is good to understand.

- Okay.

It's the power to act on behalf of Jesus Christ here on Earth.

It's His power here on Earth.

Through prayers, through blessings.

- Why 1978?

What was significant about that time?

- Well, that's pretty close to the civil rights movement and some other things.

And suddenly the nation's attitude started changing dramatically toward Black people as well.

- There was a lot of movement in the church's history to remove the policy long before 1978, but they couldn't get everyone to be able to get on the same page with it.

And so with Spencer W. Kimball, I mean, you have a lot of work that David O. McKay an earlier president of the church did, to try and bring things together.

And it wasn't just Black people who were affected by the priesthood ban.

Anybody that looked Black, Brazilian, Pacific Islander, some Asians, depending on how dark you were, you were automatically assumed.

And so when presidents and leaderships like David O. McKay said, "Well, we can let them in and we can let them in."

And started letting other people in, as long as they weren't Black.

You had movement, - [Lonzo] Yeah.

- Within the church.

And in Spencer W. Kimball's memoir, he says, "I knew that if I didn't do it, my successor wasn't going to."

And he made that the focus of his work.

Because you had someone in Ezra Taft Benson, who was anti Martin Luther King Jr., believed Martin Luther King Jr.

was a communist.

He led the John Birch Society, before he was prophet in the 80s.

And so you have Spencer W. Kimball recognizing from where everyone who has tried before me, the leader who's coming after me has a purpose, and is gonna be able to do some really good things in the church.

However, if I don't take care of this, I know that Benson is not going to.

And so you have somebody that this weighed on him, and in his memoir, people will say, you could tell how it weighed on him.

- Nowadays, when I go into, like, if I go downtown to the temple to go see the lights, or I go to see, going to certain people's houses with their LDS, they have these images of Jesus.

- [LaShawn] Yes.

- And those images are very much a very Caucasian, blonde-haired, blue-eyed.

We know this day and age that that is not correct.

Why is the church still keeping up those images?

And I think as a matter of fact, we have some images here that we could show you guys.

- [Mauli] Yeah, there's some samples.

- [Lonzo] There's some depictions of Christ and of, some people view that, but there's even more Caucasian type pictures of Jesus within the LDS church.

Why is it the LDS church really holds on to that blonde-haired, blue-eyed thing?

- I think that question is gonna be not a question in a decade from now.

I feel like we are really slow for change, especially surrounding race.

And so I don't think that those who are picking the pictures and putting 'em out in the churches realize the harm that it does.

My Black son, as he walks through the chapels, and he's looking at a picture, there's a picture, where it's the Jesus that you're talking about, and it's a bunch of angels.

And they all look just like Jesus.

Blonde hair, blue-eyed angels.

And he says, "Paw Paw's not gonna go to heaven."

And I was like, "What?"

And he says, "Paw Paw can't be an angel."

I was like, "Of course Paw Paw can!"

And he says, "No, look!"

And he's to your point.

And so he's looking at, pointing at the art.

And that art is a representation of what we believe.

- Yes.

- And so that does have to change.

And that concern that you're pointing out is a real one.

And I think we're not the only ones having discussions.

I imagine these discussions are being had as you keep going up in the church.

- So the church has released a statement.

And anybody who has the church library app on their phone can find this in the topics.

And I'm gonna just read this statement about White supremacy and where they really stand about that.

"There are some among the various pro-White and White supremacy communities who assert that the church is neutral toward, or in support of their views.

Nothing could be further from the truth."

Okay, so that's clear that they condemn any sort of White supremacist attitudes or behaviors.

And then there's also this idea of Jesus being White.

The images that we just saw.

And they really don't stand for that either.

They say here that "No, Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem to a Jewish woman and raised in Nazareth.

The fact that some popular church artwork has portrayed Jesus as White does not mean as some have mistakenly argued, that Jesus was White, according to a modern understanding of race."

- I'm curious, with you two, what have been some of your challenges with being Black, being LDS?

- The challenges are almost daily.

If you're talking about racism alone.

There is no avoiding them, in my world.

For example, me being in seminary, as a teen going into seminary, my seminary teacher asked me to stand up as he was teaching his class, and I stood up.

And he said, "Now you see, he won't meet Jesus."

- Ouch!

- Right.

And then begin to explain to my White friends and peers, why I would not see Jesus, meet Jesus.

Because of the color of my skin, because of, and these things, even though you've read things that counter that teaching, right?

- Yeah, yeah.

- But he wasn't taught or trained differently, and there's been a lot of teaching and training otherwise.

- Mm hmm.

- And so he's regurgitating what he knows to be.

And so we as Black people are harmed by the history because people have not been taught.

It's like, it's not him that did the damage, it's the silence that does the damage.

You know what I mean?

- [Lonzo] It's usually what happens.

It's the silence.

- Right, right.

- Like that gives it permission.

- Yes!

- You're an angel owner.

I want to talk about your experiences and not just from a racial perspective.

Because one of the first things I said after I'd been a member of the church for about two weeks, and my friend who baptized me said, "So, what do you think?"

First thing I said is that, "Y'all don't know how to treat your women."

- Mm.

- Let's talk about your gender experience.

- Oh, my!

Well, if I get to speak for all of the women in the world, and in the church.

I think there's a lot to say for it.

Like everyone's socialized in the church.

Not just our church, but all churches to, you grow up, you date, you get married, you have kids, right?

And so in this heavy socialized gender discussion within our church about what women are supposed to be, and what women are supposed to do, you have that messaging.

Then you add on elements around race and dating.

And so then if you're in a predominantly White church, but you're not supposed to date interracially, but you are supposed to get married and become a mom and have kids, there is a, it's a paradox.

It's a conundrum for you.

- Okay, so LaShawn, I also want to get some information from you about the power dynamics of gender politics in the church and how women deal with church leadership and that sort of thing.

What are your thoughts about that?

- I think people look at the church as this major male-run, patriarchal structure.

But again, with the nuance, they don't realize that women run two-thirds of the church.

We're the head of the children's organization.

And the primary.

So everyone three to 18 is who the women are in charge of.

Women run the Boy Scout dens.

We run the Young Women's program, we run the Relief Society, the women's element of the church.

The men have Elders Quorum.

And then they have large church organizational stuff.

But so far as like the heartbeat of the church and how things get organized, and actually follow through, you will see women leading.

So yes, it is very much a patriarchal structure, and absolutely there are deep, deep, deep elements of oppression and exclusion that happen to women.

And there are also very clear representations of women leadership in the church.

And I've been in church meetings where, what I liked was seeing when individual men made choices that mattered.

And that is as simple as being in a regional leadership meeting as a member of a presidency.

And instead of being called Sister Williams, all of us in the presidency were called "president," and our last name.

- Yeah.

- So I was President Williams in that regional meeting, which is called a stake.

And I was President Williams when I came back into my world.

Like, "Nah."

I said, "I am President Williams because I'm in this presidency," right?

So little things that happen, you'll have small shifts in local leadership.

And that's why if the church can go back to being from the ground up, you will see a lot of different things shifting around how we're defining leadership.

We can define it more expansively, as opposed to it only being about the priesthood is the only way to lead.

There are so many ways to lead.

The priesthood provides a very specific service.

- Now, we talked about media and representation.

You are showing a representation of the Black experience.

- Right now, I'm working on a film.

Well, it's a six episode, this will be a miniseries, following the life of early Black pioneers, namely Elijah Abel, who received the priesthood in 1836.

And we follow his life, his ministry, and also him coming into Utah in 1853 and learning that the priesthood was taken away, and that now it's a slave territory.

And so he grapples with that, with his community of Black members, and then petitions church leadership on how he can go about having the ability to go into the temple and seal his family together.

And so this film, we get to connect with the human beings behind the history, instead of just talking about it like it's a topic.

- You've been a member of the church your whole life.

- Yes, my whole life, yes.

- You obviously love the church.

- I love Jesus.

- You love Jesus.

- Yes.

- You're also part of the church.

Tell me some of why you, the positive aspects of why you're a part of the church.

- So... - [Lonzo] What you love about it the most.

- What I love about the organized church, is that it's organized.

I'm a military kid.

And moving every single year, second grade through 10th grade, twice in ninth grade, my address changed, my home phone number changed, my zip code changed, my house changed.

But church never changed.

- Mm.

- And so church was every single Sunday, whether we had boxes opened or not, we knew where we were gonna be.

We knew we were gonna be, we could find the church.

And so for me, my personal experience is that the church was an anchor in my life when everything else was always changing.

And so in that sense, the church was an anchor.

But larger than that, Christ was an anchor.

God was an anchor.

And I knew that at least, even if we didn't have the same understanding, we still spoke the same language.

And then as I've grown, church has grown with me.

I wouldn't go if I didn't feel like I could do it.

I would leave.

I'm Black all my life.

I don't need to be Black in this.

I'm go be Black in any church that I wanna be in.

But I'm Black in this church because there is a reason.

And you ask about artwork, right?

If they had to see Black and Brown Jesus in their churches every single Sunday, wouldn't you have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, and you have done it unto me.

If me is Black every single Sunday, you are going to change how you act on Monday.

- When you asked the question about why she stayed in the church, she was separating, well, what are we talking about?

'Cause we're talking about the gospel.

Are we talking about the church organization?

- Yeah.

- 'Cause those are two very different things, especially for those of African descent, because we are here for the gospel.

- Yes, sir!

- That's why we're here.

- Well, and the churches, it seems like they have made a couple of strides.

They put up the monument that this is the place monument, where recently, where they put up the three statues.

- [Mauli] Yeah, of the Black pioneers.

- Of the black pioneers.

- I made the film, "His Name is Green Flake," because I learned about Green Flake, who was this Black pioneer, 19-year-old.

That's the same age that we send people out on missions.

- [Danor] Yeah.

- And so he's 19, Black and enslaved, leading the largest pioneer migration in America.

- [Danor] It's amazing.

- Why aren't we talking about that?

I figured, oh my gosh, that people need to know this history.

And I thought, "Well, how are they gonna know if they don't have visual representation?"

'Cause back to my story about my son, if they don't see it, how are they gonna know?

- [Speaker] Yeah.

- And so I feel selfish, I feel spoiled, because I got to have a very specific experience that others don't.

Where you have President Ballard, who's passed away now, he was the President of the Quorum of the 12.

And before this monument's gonna be unveiled, and before he speaks, I'm supposed to speak.

And so I'm up all night, trying to get my 15 minutes down to eight.

Like that, what it was supposed to be, because I wanna make sure I say the things that need to be said, but also where my church leader can feel good getting up after I speak.

- [Danor] Yeah.

- And then right before we go up onto the stage, Elder Ballard grabs my arm, and he says, "You take as much time as you need.

And you say everything you need to say."

I love and I hate that I get to have these experiences 'cause they're mine.

But I wish everybody could know that the top is working faster than we are, as a congregation.

And so it's just gotta get passed down differently, and more aggressively so that people can follow the leaders in the change that's happening now.

Is there something that's irking you in this conversation?

You're like, - Ooh, ooh, yes.

- This is just kind of irking me as not being a member of this church.

Is there something that wasn't, - Oh, feel like I'm on the spot here.

- [LaShawn] Yes, you are.

- Well, yeah, I mean, I've always been bothered by the imagery, and I've always been bothered by the fact that there are, there's this quorum, the 12, this big group of White guys that runs the church.

- Yeah.

- And they have their tentacles in all of these other countries, these Latin American countries, these African countries, they take the money, but they don't, they take the money and the members, but they don't put any of them in leadership.

- Well, and I think the thing about it is like, people don't understand what it's like to pray to God and ask if something's wrong with you.

I think the only people that can get that are gay people and Black people and maybe some physically disabled people, to pray and be like, "God, is there something really wrong with me?"

And I don't know any Black person, any gay person, any physically disabled person that where God has said yes.

- [Lonzo] Mm!

- God has always said, "No, I love you."

- Can I, this is my prediction.

Because there's this long process that these men who are in the 12 go through before becoming an apostle.

Like they're bishops for five, they're stake presidents for a decade.

Their mission presidents for another five.

They all serve in all these different categories.

And then their name comes up to be a part of the 12.

And because there's this long journey, we are so, - We're behind.

- We're behind.

- So behind.

- Yeah, we're behind.

- Yeah.

- But you have these other countries, you guys mentioned you have continents, Africa, where you look at the leadership there, and they, not the 12, but underneath the 12, and the 70s and whatever else, you see people that look like their people in their leadership.

I think it's gonna take some time before it gets up to the 12.

But in a decade, I really wanna revisit this and see what it's like.

- What would you say to a person such as myself or a younger kid who was a Black child or a Black teenager, whatever, who was thinking about joining the church.

What would you say to them if they were hesitant?

- I would say that it's not about the people.

It's about your belief in Jesus Christ and what you believe.

Do you believe the things that they're teaching in the gospel?

But you cannot look at the organization or the people, and then say, "Is this Jesus Christ or not?"

Because it won't be.

It won't be.

- [Danor] Yeah.

- And I look at it like I do my country.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like I love my country dearly.

Like that will bring me to tears.

I love my country so much.

And I don't like a whole lot of what's going on, right?

That's just me, right?

But I'm not leaving my country.

I'm not.

I'm gonna do my part to make it better.

- If I'm talking to a teenager, I say, "You come sit next to me every Sunday.

I'm gonna be late by about 10 minutes, but I'm gonna come sit in the back.

You come sit with me."

And I would tell that young one, "Any questions you have, you come to me.

Somebody says something crazy in class, you text me some red stop signs.

I will leave whatever I'm doing and I will come and I will find you.

I need you to know you're never going to be alone.

That there's gonna be a lot that they're gonna say.

And you don't have to speak up to everything.

You don't have to go into there, feeling like you gotta correct everybody on everything, because that's going to exhaust you.

You call me, I got your back.

I've been doing this longer.

You come here because something has spoken to you, something has pulled you, something has you here, just like it has me here, but I got your back.

You don't have to do this alone."

- It's a safe space.

That's great.

- That's right.

- Yes, I love that.

Well, I can't thank you guys enough for being here, for sharing your experiences.

It's deeply personal.

It's very spiritual.

And it's a tough road to navigate, but you're both doing it extremely well.

And you're an example to any person who's a member of any church, of how to navigate that difficult thing with race, religion, social dynamics, and all of that stuff.

So thank you so much.

- Yes, thank you as well.

Educational.

- You're both legends in my eyes.

From all of us at PBS Utah, thank you for joining this conversation.

And as always, other episodes can be found on our website, PBSUtah.org, or on the "PBS Utah" YouTube channel.

- And if you have feedback or ideas for other episodes, be sure to give us a shout out on social media.

Until next time, for "Roots, Race and Culture," y'all, we are out!

- See ya!

- [Announcer] Funding for "Roots, Race and Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust.

And by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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