REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE HAVE AN INTRIGUING SHOW FOR YOU TODAY BECAUSE OUR GUEST TODAY IS BENJAMIN RADFORD WHO IS A WRITER, AN INVESTIGATOR, A SKEPTIC, HE HAS WRITTEN OR CO-WRITTEN TWENTY BOOKS AND OVER A THOUSAND ARTICLES AND COLUMNS.

HIS BACKGROUND IS SO SUBLIMELY SUITED TO THIS MOMENT IN OUR CULTURE, HE HAS GOT A BACHELOR'S IN PSYCHOLOGY, A MASTER'S IN EDUCATION AND HIS FOCUS WAS SCIENCE AND THE PUBLIC.

TELL US MORE, TELL US HOW YOU ENDED UP HERE AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, BENJAMIN RADFORD.

>>BENJAMIN: WELL THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

YEAH, I GREW UP HERE IN NEW MEXICO, I SPENT ABOUT A DECADE IN BUFFALO WHICH IS WHERE MY ORGANIZATION IS BASED, BUT I SPENT MOST OF MY LIFE IN CORRALES AND RIO RANCHO.

AND YOU KNOW I WAS ALWAYS INTERESTED IN WEIRD THINGS, RIGHT, WHO ISN'T, NEW MEXICO IS A WEIRD PLACE, RIGHT?

WE HAVE ROSWELL, WE HAVE CURANDEROS, WE HAVE ALL SORTS OF FASCINATING THINGS.

AND WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN CORRALES, YOU KNOW, I WOULD GO TO THE USED BOOKSTORE AND I WOULD BUY A BUNCH OF USED BOOKS AND I WOULD JUST READ ALL THESE MYSTERIES, BERMUDA TRIANGLE AND PSYCHICS AND UFOS AND I WAS JUST FASCINATED BY THEM.

BUT AFTER A WHILE I SORT OF REALIZED THAT THERE WASN'T MUCH ACTUAL INVESTIGATION.

IT WAS LOTS OF STORIES AND LOTS OF SORT OF BASIC STORIES BUT VERY FEW OF THE AUTHORS ACTUALLY DID ANY INVESTIGATION.

SO I FIGURED WHEN I GREW UP, WHENEVER THAT MIGHT BE, I WOULD GO AHEAD AND TRY TO DO SOME INVESTIGATIONS SO THAT'S WHAT LED ME TO IT.

>>LORENE: WELL, IT IS JUST SO TIMELY BECAUSE WE ARE IN THIS KIND OF ANTI-SCIENCE, ANTI-TRUTH TIME IN LIFE AND TO ACTUALLY BRING SIMPLE SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY AND A SPIRIT OF INQUIRY INTO THESE FASCINATING HISTORICAL, FOLKLORICAL, WONDERFUL TALES, I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT A COUPLE OF YOUR BOOKS, FOR ONE THING, DO YOU OWN THE CHUPACABRA STORY, BUT THIS ONE BOOK IS CALLED, TRACKING THE CHUPACABR, THE VAMPIRE BEAST IN FACT, FICTION AND FOLKLORE .

AND ANOTHER ONE THIS HAS BEEN THE MOST FUN READ, THIS IS CALLED MYSTERIOUS NEW MEXICO, MIRACLES, MAGIC, AND MONSTERS IN THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT .

AND WHAT YOU'VE SIMPLY DONE IS WITH A COOL EYE AND A SCIENTIFIC MIND, YOU HAVE MADE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE WONDERFUL FOLKLORE AND LEGENDS OF NEW MEXICO, PUTTING THEM IN CONTEXT AND TELLING US AGAIN THE HISTORY AND HOW THE STORIES HAVE EVOLVED.

SO SOME PEOPLE THINK, AH, BUT I LOVE MY STORIES.

I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT LA LLORONA AND THE MIRACULOUS STAIRCASE.

AND YOU DON'T TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM IT, YOU ADDED SO MUCH.

THESE ARE STORIES I REALLY CARE ABOUT AND NOW I KNOW SO MUCH MORE AND IT HAS BEEN A DELIGHT.

SO, YOUR TOPICS ARE OFTEN URBAN LEGENDS, UNEXPLAINED MYSTERIES, CRITICAL THINKING AND SKEPTICAL INQUIRY AND YOU HAVE BEEN ON CNN, THE HISTORY CHANNEL , NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC , CBC THAT'S CANADA, ABC, BBC THAT'S BRITAIN, THE NEW YORK TIMES .

YOUR ARTICLES HAVE BEEN USED IN COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY COURSES ON CRITICAL THINKING AND YOU ALSO ARE A CONTRIBUTOR TO SNOPES.COM, IF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS THAT'S HOW YOU CAN DOUBLE CHECK URBAN LEGENDS, CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND GIVE THE REAL SCIENTIFIC TEST, IS THIS TRUE OR NOT, WITHOUT AN AGENDA THAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DETERMINE.

SO YOU HAVE WRITTEN ARTICLES THERE DEBUNKING FAKE LORE, WHICH IS FAKE FOLKLORE, AGAIN A VERY CREATIVE FIELD.

SO PLEASE PUT THIS WHOLE EFFORT IN CONTEXT, WE ARE IN A POST-TRUTH ERA, AN ERA OF FAKE NEWS WHERE EVERYONE IS BEING ACCUSED OF BEING FAKE NEWS AND ANTI-SCIENCE FOUNDATION.

WHY, HOW DID WE GET HERE AND WHAT ARE YOU OFFERING TO PULL US OUT OF THE PIT.

>>BENJAMIN: IT'S A TALL ORDER, LET ME TELL YOU, AND I APPRECIATE YOUR APPRECIATING MY APPROACH TO THESE INVESTIGATIONS.

AS YOU SAID, I INVESTIGATE A WIDE VARIETY OF THINGS FROM UFO CLAIMS, URBAN LEGENDS TO MEDIA LITERACY, GHOSTS, MIRACLES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT I TRY AND BRING A FOLKLORIC PERSPECTIVE AND A PSYCHOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE AND TRY TO INSTEAD OF BEING CONFRONTATIONAL AND DISMISSIVE, TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHERE IS THE PERSON IS COMING FROM.

BECAUSE OFTEN TIMES THE PERSON THAT IS REPORTING THESE EXPERIENCES, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS, OFTEN THEY GENUINELY BELIEVE IT.

THERE ARE A FEW HOAXERS AND A FEW LIARS AND THIS AND THAT BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THESE ARE SINCERE PEOPLE WHO HAD SOME EXPERIENCE THAT THEY CAN'T EXPLAIN AND THAT TRANSLATES INTO ALL SORTS OF CLAIMS.

SO EVEN THOUGH I PRIMARILY INVESTIGATE SO CALLED "UNUSUAL OR UNEXPLAINED PHENOMENA," I APPLY SKEPTICISM ACROSS THE BOARD AND THAT'S SORT OF THE CRITICAL THINKING THAT UNDERLIES WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO, IS TO TRY AND GET PEOPLE TO LOOK AT ALL SORTS OF CLAIMS THROUGH THE PRISM OF CRITICAL THINKING, WHETHER IT IS POLITICAL CLAIMS, ADVERTISING CLAIMS, WHATEVER IT IS, YOU SHOULD ASK FOR EVIDENCE IF PEOPLE ARE WANTING YOU TO SUPPORT THEIR CAUSE, IF THEY ARE WANTING YOU TO BUY THEIR PRODUCT, TO VOTE A CERTAIN WAY, THEN YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT, IN FACT YOU SHOULD I WOULD ARGUE, THAT YOU HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION TO BRING CRITICAL THINKING TO IT AND TO TRY AND WEED OUT THE THINGS THAT ARE TRUE AND THE THINGS THAT ARE FALSE.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THAT HAS BEEN ESPECIALLY PROBLEMATIC IN THE PAST FEW YEARS WHERE YOU HAVE GOT THIS RISE OF ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM, THIS SORT OF POST-TRUTH TIME AND THAT IS DANGEROUS BECAUSE WHAT IS TRUE MATTERS AND WHAT TRUE MATTERS ACROSS THE BOARD AND SO OFTEN TIMES THESE TOPICS ARE NOT SO MUCH, I MEAN SOMETIMES OF COURSE YOU CAN GET INTO POLITICAL TOPICS AND SOME SOCIAL TOPICS, THIS AND THAT, BUT THE BASIC FRAMEWORK, THE PRISM THROUGH WHICH WE UNDERSTAND THE WORLD IS SCIENCE.

IT'S ASKING FOR EVIDENCE, IT IS TRYING TO DETERMINE WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS FALSE AND THAT IMPROVES EVERYBODY'S OUTLOOK.

I MEAN SCIENCE IS THE WAY THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE WORLD, SCIENCE IS HOW WE KNOW WHAT IS ON MARS, THAT IS HOW WE KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD, IN CLIMATE AND ZOOLOGY AND EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT THE WORLD WE KNOW THROUGH CRITICAL THINKING AND SCIENCE.

AND THAT IS ONE REASON WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO TRY AND BRING THAT TO TOPICS ACROSS THE BOARD.

>>LORENE: SO CAN WE EXPAND, WHEN PEOPLE HEAR THE WORLD "CRITICAL" THEY OFTEN THINK OF A CRITIQUE OR A NEGATIVE.

>>BENJAMIN: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: SO IT IS NOT A CRITICISM LIKE I AM CRITICIZING YOU, YOU KNOW.

>>BENJAMIN: NO.

>>LORENE: BUT IT IS A MINDSET, IT IS A SCIENTIFIC METHODOLOGY THAT YOU SUPERIMPOSE AND MANY TIMES ON A PARANORMAL BELIEF OR SITUATION, SO THAT IT IS MORE ANALYTICAL, IT IS NOT LIKE FIND OUT WHAT IS WRONG, YOU KNOW, WHERE THE LIE IS.

SO CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THAT A LITTLE BIT AND ALSO YOUR COMMITTEE FOR SKEPTICAL INQUIRY WHICH IS A NONPROFIT EDUCATIONAL COMMITTEE, HOW CAN PEOPLE FIND OUT MORE, IF PEOPLE WANT TO DEVELOP THEIR CRITICAL FACULTIES OR FACILITIES, HOW CAN THEY FIND OUT MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING?

>>BENJAMIN: SURE.

YEAH, THE ORGANIZATION I WORK FOR AND HAVE WORKED FOR TWENTY SOME YEARS NOW, TWENTY ODD YEARS AND MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN PRETTY ODD, LET ME TELL YOU, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE CENTER FOR INQUIRY, BASED IN BUFFALO, NEW YORK, IT WAS CO-FOUNDED BY PEOPLE LIKE CARL SAGAN, ISAAC ASIMOV, THE LATE PAUL KURTZ AND PEOPLE LIKE THAT IN 1970S, WHO WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE RISE OF NATURAL THINKING.

PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T APPLYING CRITICAL THINKING TO THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS AND YOU CAN SAY, "WELL, IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER, SO WHAT IF SOMEBODY BELIEVES IN BIG FOOT OR ANGELS OR GHOSTS" AND THERE IS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF TRUTH TO THAT.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT ONCE YOU GET THAT FOOT IN THE DOOR, ONCE YOU BEGIN ACCEPTING ANY WILD CLAIM AND NOT ASKING FOR EVIDENCE, THAT'S A VERY DANGEROUS PATH BECAUSE THERE ARE REAL PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD AND WE NEED TO BRING CRITICAL THINKING TO THAT.

AND SO THERE IS DIFFERENT AVENUES WHICH PEOPLE CAN GET INVOLVED IN SKEPTICISM, THE ORGANIZATION THAT I WORK FOR IS CSICOP, WELL THAT IS ACTUALLY THE OLD VERSION OF IT, THE NEWER VERSION IS THE CENTER FOR INQUIRY AND RIGHT HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE WE ACTUALLY HAVE ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S OLDEST SKEPTICAL GROUPS.

IT IS CALLED NEW MEXICANS FOR SCIENCE AND REASON, NMSR AND PEOPLE CAN GO TO NMSR.ORG AND IT IS RUN BY A PHYSICIST IN SOCORRO, DAVE THOMAS, A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND THEY HAVE MONTHLY MEETINGS, WE TALK ABOUT SKEPTICAL THINGS.

IT IS FUN, AGAIN, IT IS NOT NEGATIVE, IT IS NOT JUST DEBUNKING, NOT DISMISSIVE, IT IS LEARNING ABOUT SCIENCE AND EXAMINING WEIRD THINGS THROUGH A CRITICAL LENS.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE THE PLEASURE TODAY TO LOOK AT A COUPLE OF NATIONAL TOPICS AND THEN SOME OF OUR BELOVED NEW MEXICO TOPICS, SO I AM JUST SO GRATEFUL.

WE ARE GOING TO START AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL IF YOU DON'T MIND BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE COVID19 PANDEMIC AND THERE WAS SO MUCH MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION AND VACCINE MISINFORMATION AND IT EFFECTED ALL OF US.

OUR VERY HEALTH DEPENDED ON GETTING THE REAL SCIENTIFIC TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THESE VACCINES DID AND DID NOT DO, CAN YOU ADDRESS THAT TOPIC?

>>BENJAMIN: SURE AND THAT IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE ANGLES THAT I HAVE TRIED TO APPROACH THROUGH MY WORK PARTICULARLY IN THE PAST YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC.

AS I MENTIONED THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS IN THE WORLD THAT PEOPLE HAVE WEIRD BELIEFS ABOUT, CONSPIRACY THEORIES, CROP CIRCLES, ALIENS, WHAT HAVE YOU, BUT THERE ARE SOME TOPICS THAT ARE LITERALLY LIFE AND DEATH AND THAT INCLUDES COVID19 AND VACCINATIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO IN MY RESEARCH INTO MY WORK I HAVE TRIED TO REALLY ADDRESS THE SPECTRUM OF IT, SO, YES I LOOK INTO CHUPACABRAS AND LA LLORONA AND GHOSTS MIRACLES, BUT I ALSO LOOK INTO CONSUMER PROTECTION.

I LOOK INTO STRENGTHENING LAWS AGAINST FRAUD AS WELL AS MEDICAL ISSUES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND CERTAINLY OVER THE COURSE OF THE PANDEMIC, I RECOGNIZED PRETTY EARLY ON, THAT MANY OF THE CLAIMS THAT WERE COMING OUT THAT WERE SORT OF ANTI-VACCINATION, WERE BASICALLY OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLES, THEY WERE THE SAME SORTS OF ANTI-VACCINATION THINGS I HAD WRITTEN ABOUT FOR DISCOVERY NEWS 15 YEARS AGO.

THESE SORT OF REGURGITATED, RESURRECTED, BASICALLY, STORIES, DISCREDITED STORIES ABOUT THE LINK BETWEEN THE MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM, WHICH UNFORTUNATELY MADE LOTS OF NEWS OF COURSE DECADES AGO THAT WERE LATER DISCREDITED THROUGH THE WORK OF ANDREW WAKEFIELD AND OTHERS.

BUT IT WAS THAT SAME LATENT SORT OF HESITATION AND PART OF THE REASON THAT THE VACCINE HESITATION HAS REALLY BEEN A WORLD PROBLEM WITH COVID IS THAT YOU HAVE IT, YOU HAVE THE HESITATION AND THE HESITATION COMING IN FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES.

SO YOU HAVE THIS UNDERLYING LATENT DISTRUST OF THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH TO SOME DEGREE IS VALID, RIGHT, YOU SHOULDN'T ALWAYS TRUST THE GOVERNMENT, EVERYBODY AGREES WITH THIS.

BUT WHEN YOU COMBINE THAT WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S ANTI-VACCINATION RHETORIC, YOU HAVE DR. FAUCI COMING IN AND YOU HAVE ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS, ALL THESE DIFFERENT FACTORS, IT IS EASY TO SORT OF STEW THAT UP AND STIR THAT UP AND TURN IT INTO THIS VACCINE HESITANCY THAT UNFORTUNATELY IS AFFECTING MANY PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

FORTUNATELY HERE IN NEW MEXICO, AS YOU KNOW, WE ARE NEAR THE TOP OF THE HEAP NATIONALLY BUT YOU HAVE MANY STATES, PARTICULARLY IN THE SOUTH, MANY COMMUNITIES OF COLOR THAT ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED, NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES AND ELSEWHERE WHERE THEY ARE JUST NOT GETTING THE VACCINATION AND THE HESITANCY FROM THAT.

SO THAT IS ONE REASON I REALLY FELT THIS IS IMPORTANT TO TRY, NOT ONLY ADDRESS THE MISINFORMATION ABOUT THE COVID VACCINES BUT ALSO THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT UNDERLIE THEM.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH BEN RADFORD, THANK YOU FOR ADDRESSING THE COVID PROBLEM BECAUSE THAT WAS REALLY LIFE OR DEATH.

JUST ANOTHER ONE THAT HAS COME UP THAT EVERYONE LOVES FOR MISINFORMATION AND MYSTIC AND LEGENDS.

RECENTLY THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE IN THE DEFINITION OF UFOS, THEY ARE CALLED NOW UNIDENTIFIED ARIEL PHENOMENON.

WAS THERE MUCH THERE THERE?

>>BENJAMIN: THERE WASN'T MUCH THERE THERE AND I AM GLAD YOU ASKED THAT.

YEAH, SO YOU KNOW, OF COURSE HERE IN NEW MEXICO PEOPLE THINK OF ROSWELL, SO THAT IS ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE SAY, "OH, YOU ARE FROM NEW MEXICO," THEY THINK YOU KNOW WYLIE COYOTE, THEY THINK BREAKING BAD AND ROSWELL AND GREEN CHILE, THAT'S IT, MAKE SURE GREEN CHILE IN TOO BECAUSE THAT IS IMPORTANT HERE.

SO BUT IT IS ONE OF THINGS OF COURSE THAT NEW MEXICO IS KNOWN FOR AND THE INTEREST IN UFOS COMES AND GOES.

IT WAS VERY STRONG IN THE 1940S AND 1950S, BEGINNING AROUND 1947 WITH A SIGHTING BY A GUY NAMED KENNETH ARNOLD THAT SORT OF COINED THE PHRASE, "FLYING SAUCER" AND 1947 WAS OF COURSE THE SAME YEAR AS THE ROSWELL INCIDENT.

BUT IT SORT OF COMES AND GOES, COMES AND GOES AND ESPECIALLY OVER THE PAST SAY SIX MONTHS OR A YEAR YOU HAVE HAD MORE AND MORE OTHERWISE REPUTABLE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS INCLUDING 60 MINUTES , AND THE NEW YORK TIMES , PAYING MORE ATTENTION TO WHAT ARE FRANKLY OFTEN DISCREDITED PEOPLE AND THEY ARE SORT OF RESURRECTING THESE VIDEOS FROM THE US NAVY, SOME OF WHICH DATE BACK TO 2007.

SO THESE ARE NOT NEW VIDEOS, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE INTERESTING, IN FACT IF YOU WATCH THE VIDEOS, IT IS LIKE A BLOB AND THEN IT SORT OF DISAPPEARS, THERE IS NOTHING REALLY THAT INTERESTING ABOUT IT.

ANYWAY IT IS A PART OF THE REASON THAT IT IS GETTING A LOT OF ATTENTION THESE DAYS IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROMOTING THIS DISCLOSURE PROJECT, PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT THE US GOVERNMENT HAS NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN TO HIDE EVIDENCE OF UFOS AND ALIENS AND SORT OF, YOU KNOW, COVER THAT UP.

WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO INTO IT BUT IT IS A FASCINATING STORY BUT THE SHORT ANSWER IS, PARTICULARLY WITH THE MOST RECENT REVELATIONS, THERE IS NOT MUCH THERE THERE.

THEY'RE REAL VIDEOS, THE VIDEOS THEMSELVES ARE NOT FAKED, THEY ARE NOT JUST PARTICULARLY INTERESTING NOR UNEXPLAINABLE.

IF PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN KNOWING MORE ABOUT THE VIDEOS THERE IS A WEBSITE CALLED METABUNK.ORG.

IT IS A WONDERFUL WEBSITE, IT IS RUN BY A FRIEND OF MINE NAMED NICK WEST AND IT HAS REALLY GOOD DETAILS ANALYSIS OF THESE VIDEOS >>LORENE: NOW WE ARE GOING TO SHIFT OUR FOCUS TO THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH FOLKLORE, WONDERFUL STORIES HERE AND IT IS HARD FOR ME TO ASK YOU TO BOIL DOWN YOUR CHUPACABRA WORK INTO A COUPLE OF MINUTES, BUT IT KEEPS CROPPING UP EVEN IN THE WEATHER REPORTS YOU KNOW EVERYONE IS INTERESTED IN CHUPACABRAS.

WHAT IS A CHUPACABRA AND GIVE ME THE SHORT VERSION ON WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH FOLKLORE AROUND CHUPACABRAS?

>>BENJAMIN: SURE, SURE.

YEAH, I LOVE THE CHUPACABRAS, YOU MENTIONED, I WROTE A BOOK ON IT, I WILL TRY AND GIVE YOU THE SHORT VERSION.

SO BASICALLY, THE CHUPACABRA, AS MANY NEW MEXICANS KNOW, IS ALLEGEDLY THE GOAT SUCKER, OF COURSE IT MEANS GOAT SUCKER IN SPANISH, AND IT IS SAID THIS MYSTERIOUS CREATURE SORT OF ALONG THE LINES OF LIKE BIG FOOT OR LOCH NESS MONSTER, IT IS SAID TO SUCK THE BLOOD OUT OF GOATS AND CHICKENS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

IT IS WIDELY BELIEVED TO BE A MEXICAN LEGEND, BUT IT ACTUALLY ORIGINATED IN PUERTO RICO IN THE MID-90S, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH.

AND AGAIN THERE ARE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF IT, IT HAS ACTUALLY CHANGED FORM OVER THE YEARS.

SO ORIGINALLY IT WAS THIS SORT OF SPIKEY BACK ALIEN TYPE CREATURE YOU MIGHT SEE IN A FILM AND THESE DAYS THEY ARE BASICALLY MANGY LOOKING DOGS.

AND IT IS FASCINATING, IN FACT RIGHT HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE THERE WERE A COUPLE OF NOTABLE CHUPACABRA SIGHTINGS OR REPORTS.

THERE WAS ONE IN 2007 OFF OF COORS ROAD, IT TURNED OUT TO BE A DOG, SPOILER ALERT, BUT STILL INTERESTING NEVER THE LESS AND IT IS A FASCINATING FOLKLORE STORY.

>>LORENE: WELL, BEN, THAT IS AN INTRIGUING ENCAPSULATION OF JUST ONE LAYER OF THE MANY LAYERS OF THE CHUPACABRA, BUT ONE OTHER FOLKLORIC MYTH AND IT IS IN EVERY PART OF NEW MEXICO AND EVERY CULTURE IS LA LLORONA, THE WEEPING WOMAN, THE WAILING WOMAN AND EVERY KID WHEN THEY GROW UP ABOUT BEING IN THE ARROYOS OR DOWN BY THE DITCH, THE PARENTS, THE GRANDPARENTS SAY, "DON'T GO DOWN THERE, LA LLORONA WILL GET YOU."

AND THAT'S A GOOD PUBLIC SAFETY THING TO NOT HAVE KIDS PLAYING IN A FLASHFLOOD ZONE, BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT LA LLORONA AND WHAT YOU FOUND ABOUT THIS STORY HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

>>BENJAMIN: YEAH, I LOVED DIGGING INTO LA LLORONA FOR MY BOOK, MYSTERIOUS NEW MEXICO , BECAUSE I HAD DONE A LOT OF OTHER STUFF ON FOLKLORE LEGENDS AND THIS AND THAT, BUT I HADN'T REALLY TURNED MY ATTENTION TO LA LLORONA AND IT WAS SORT OF LIKE IN MY OWN BACKYARD, RIGHT?

AS I MENTIONED, I GREW UP IN CORRALES AND YOU KNOW ALL THE KIDS, WHITE, HISPANIC, OTHERWISE, EVERYBODY KNEW LA LLORONA AND OF COURSE AS YOU MENTIONED, THE UNDERLYING MESSAGE TO STAY AWAY FROM THE DITCHES.

AND SO IT WAS ONE THAT I WAS SORT OF SATURATED IN GROWING UP EVEN THOUGH I HADN'T REALLY PAID MUCH ATTENTION TO IT OTHER THAN AS A WARNING TO STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THE RIO GRANDE.

BUT IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING SORT OF TO DIG BACK INTO THIS BASICALLY VERSION URBAN LEGEND AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT ARE PEOPLE REPORTING?

SO OBVIOUSLY, FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, THE LA LLORONA STORY BASICALLY BEGINS WITH AN OLD LEGEND ABOUT A WOMAN WHO DROWNED HER CHILDREN, SINCE THERE WERE THREE CHILDREN AND SOMETIMES MORE, BASICALLY AND THERE ARE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF IT AS IT IS COMMON IN FOLKLORE, BUT BASICALLY THE END RESULT IS THAT THE CHILDREN ARE DROWNED AND SHE IS THEN DRIVEN INSANE IN MADNESS AND GUILT AND SHE IS THEN HEARD WAILING IN THE DITCHES AND RIVERS AND LAKES CALLING FOR HER CHILDREN, WEEPING FOR THEM, LOOKING FOR THEM.

AND OF COURSE THE STORY GOES THAT IF YOU LISTEN CLOSELY ON MOONLESS NIGHTS NEAR THE RIVER YOU CAN HEAR HER CALLING.

AND OF COURSE YOU CAN, BECAUSE IT IS SCARY, RIGHT, YOU'RE AT A DITCH AND YOU ARE BY THE RIVER OR YOU ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY THE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF LA LLORONA.

SO IN MANY STORIES LA LLORONA IS SAID TO BE THIS BEAUTIFUL WOMAN, OTHER TIMES SHE IS SAID TO BE THIS OLD CRONE.

SOME SAY THAT SHE IS A NINE-FOOT-TALL WOMAN DRESSED IN WHITE AND THERE'S ALL DIFFERENT VERSIONS, IN SOME VERSIONS OF THE STORY, SHE CAN TURN INTO DIFFERENT ANIMALS SO THIS SORT OF TIES IN WITH WITCHCRAFT, RIGHT?

USUALLY AN OWL OR MAYBE A COYOTE OR A CAT OR THINGS LIKE THAT, SO YOU HAVE THIS SORT OF THIS FOLKLORE TIE-IN TO WITCHES AND TRANSFORMING ANIMALS.

OFTEN TIMES LA LLORONA IS SAID TO HAVE A HAT OR A VEIL AND THEN YOU HAVE SOME PAST ENCOUNTER THAT IS OTHERWISE MUNDANE, BUT SHE TURNS IN A SUDDEN TWIST, SHE LIFTS HER VEIL OR THE HAT COMES OFF AND YOU SEE THIS TERRIFYING FACE.

SO ANYWAY, IT IS JUST SO MANY FASCINATING STORIES ABOUT THAT AND AS IT TURNS OUT, LA LLORONA IS ACTUALLY NOT A MEXICAN LEGEND.

THE VISAGE OR WHAT PEOPLE INTERPRET AS HOW SHE LOOKS OR THE COMPLEXION, HOW SHE IS THOUGHT OF AS APPEARING IS DRAWN FROM LATIN AMERICAN AND NATIVE AMERICAN STORIES BUT IN FACT THE LEGEND ITSELF ACTUALLY GOES BACK CENTURIES EARLIER TO GERMANY.

SO IT IS THIS FASCINATING STORY OF LEGENDS BEING TRANSFORMED AND MIXED IN TRUE FOLKLORIC FASHION AND THE OTHER INTERESTING THING ABOUT LA LLORONA IS THAT SHE SERVES AS YOU MENTIONED AS THIS SORT OF A MORALITY TALE, RIGHT?

IT IS NOT JUST A SCARY FIGURE, IT IS SOMETHING TO ENCOURAGE CHILDREN TO MIND THEIR PARENTS, SO IT IS A WARNING TO CHILDREN TO STAY AWAY FROM DITCHES AND TO MIND THEIR PARENTS, BUT IT ALSO ON ANOTHER LEVEL A WARNING TO PARENTS TO WATCH YOUR KIDS OTHERWISE LA LLORONA WILL GET THEM.

SO THERE IS ALL SORTS OF FASCINATING SORT OF SOCIAL BOOGIE MEN CONTROL THINGS GOING ON, IT IS A LOVELY, SCARY, HORRIFYING LEGEND.

>>LORENE: WELL ANOTHER ONE FROM YOUR BOOK, MYSTERIOUS NEW MEXICO , WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT, BUT THE MIRACULOUS STAIRCASE AT THE CHAPEL OF LORETTO IN SANTA FE THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF DOCUMENTARIES ABOUT IT AND THERE IS A LOT OF MYTHS THAT THIS MYSTERIOUS CARPENTER CAME, THE NUNS PRAYED TO HAVE A STAIR UP TO THE CHOIR LOFT AND THERE ARE NO NAILS IN IT AND IT IS BUILT, IT IS THIS WONDERFUL SPIRAL SHAPE.

BY THE TIME YOU PUT YOUR HISTORICAL HAT ON AND LOOKED AT WHAT IS ACTUALLY THERE IN THE HISTORICAL RECORDS, ALL THE FACTS ARE THERE AND INSTEAD OF TAKING AWAY FROM THIS MYSTERIOUS CARPENTER WHO CAME AND WORKED 33 DAYS AND IT WAS A MIRACLE.

I LEARNED SO MUCH MORE, IT WAS SO PLEASING FOR ME TO LEARN ALL THE BACKGROUND THAT YOU GAVE, AGAIN TO PUT IT IN CONTEXT, CAN YOU GIVE ME A SENTENCE ABOUT THE MIRACULOUS STAIRCASE.

>>BENJAMIN: A SHORT BYTE, YES.

AS YOU MENTIONED THE LORETTO STAIRCASE IS A BEAUTIFUL STORY AND IT IS INSPIRING, IT IS INTERESTING AND UNLIKE MANY LEGENDS, LIKE LA LLORONA FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN GO SEE IT, YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS, YOU CAN TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF IT, YOU CAN EVEN TOUCH IT IF YOU WANT.

BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THE LEGENDS THAT BUILT UP AROUND ITS ORIGIN, ARE IN MANY CASES EXAGGERATED AND OUTRIGHT FABRICATED.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS ANY LESS AMAZING OR BEAUTIFUL, IT JUST MEANS THAT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE WE HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF WHO MADE IT AND IT IS NOT ST. JOSEPH.

>>LORENE: WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU BRING TO US IN THESE BOOKS AND IN YOUR PODCASTS AND IN YOUR ARTICLES, IS THAT ANYBODY CAN DO THIS, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS USE THE TOOLS OF CRITICAL THINKING AND SOME METHODOLOGY AND LOOK AT THE HISTORY AND THE CONTEXT.

PUTTING IT IN CONTEXT IS SO IMPORTANT AND THAT IS WHY YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND GIVES YOU SO MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS TO APPROACH THESE STORIES ON.

SO HOW CAN PEOPLE FIND OUT MORE, I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT YOU DO HAVE A PODCAST THAT I AM STILL LISTENING TO, I THINK YOU HAVE A 140 AND I HAVE ONLY HEARD 10, BUT IT IS CALLED SQUARING THE STRANGE AND YOU CAN GET IT WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS, ALSO SOME OF YOUR OTHER BOOKS, JUST TELL US HOW TO EVOKE THE SPIRIT OF CRITICAL THINKING, MEDIA LITERACY, AND THE SCIENTIFIC METHODS IN OUR DAILY LIFE.

>>BENJAMIN: SURE.

AS YOU MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, I MANAGED TO SOLVE A LOT OF THESE MYSTERIES BUT IT IS NOT BECAUSE I AM THE SMARTEST GUY IN THE WORLD, IT IS JUST BECAUSE I APPLY CRITICAL THINKING TO IT.

AND THAT IS ONE THING THAT I TRY TO IMPRESS UPON PEOPLE AND THEY SAY, OH IT IS SO INTERESTING YOU WROTE THIS BOOK AND SOLVED THIS MYSTERY AND I SAY, YEAH, BUT YOU CAN DO IT, TOO.

YOU, TOO CAN DO IT, YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE DILIGENCE, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE TIME AND EFFORT, YOU HAVE TO DO GOOD RESEARCH.

SO OFTEN TIMES THE REASON THAT A MYSTERY IS CREATED IS BECAUSE IT HASN'T BEEN ADEQUATELY INVESTIGATED OR EXPLAINED.

SO MANY PEOPLE ARE SO BUSY SAYING, "OH ISN'T THAT WEIRD" AND THERE ARE FEWER PEOPLE SAYING, "WELL HOLD ON HERE, WHAT IS THE TRUTH AND THE ASSUMPTIONS BEHIND IT?"

SO I ALWAYS ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TRY AND THINK CRITICALLY, TO TRY AND EXAMINE ALL SORTS OF CLAIMS WHETHER THEY ARE PARANORMAL, URBAN LEGENDS OR WHATEVER ELSE, THROUGH A CRITICAL LENS, BECAUSE IT REALLY DOES IMPROVE YOUR LIFE, IT IMPROVES SOCIETY IN GENERAL.

PEOPLE CAN FIND OUT MORE ABOUT ME, THERE IS SKEPTICAL INQUIRE MAGAZINE OF WHICH I AM THE DEPUTY EDITOR, YOU MENTIONED SQUARE NEWS STRANGE , MY PODCAST, I HAVE GOT A DOZEN OR SO BOOKS FROM UNM PRESS AND ELSEWHERE AND YEAH, JUST YOU KNOW, GET INVOLVED IN LOCAL SKEPTICS GROUPS.

GET INVOLVED IN GROUPS ONLINE AND YOU ARE GOING TO FIND THAT THEY ARE NOT MEAN, NASTY, DEBUNKERS, THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE GENERALLY INTERESTED IN THE WORLD AND WANT TO TRY AND FIND OUT MORE ABOUT IT.

>>LORENE: WELL I HOPE FROM YOU AN ARMY OF CRITICAL THINKERS IN THEIR SHERLOCK HOLMES HATS AND MAGNIFYING GLASSES, WILL GO OUT AND START LOOKING AT THE BACKGROUND OF THESE INTRIGUING STORIES.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS BENJAMIN RADFORD, AUTHOR OF MYSTERIOUS NEW MEXICO AND TRACKING THE CHUPACABRA .

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BE WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE.

>>BENJAMIN: THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON, GREAT TALKING TO YOU.

>>LORENE: IT WAS A PLEASURE.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE