REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

TODAY WE HAVE A MOST PROVOCATIVE BOOK AND AUTHOR, I'M SO DELIGHTED YOU'RE HERE, BERNARD EWELL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>BERNARD: OH, I'M SITTING HERE WITH THE LEGENDARY LORENE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN.

I'M THE ONE SHOULD BE SAYING THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: WELL, I'M THE ONE WHO SAYS THANK YOU, BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN THIS BOOK, ARTFUL DODGERS: FRAUD AND FOOLISHNESS IN THE ART MARKET.

THIS IS SUCH A WONDERFUL READ.

>>BERNARD: OH, THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: IT IS ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTFUL, AND IT HAS A PICTURE, WE'LL HAVE TO DO A CLOSE UP OF IT, IS THAT OLIVER?

>>BERNARD: THAT IS A PORTION OF A MURAL IN MEXICO CITY, IT WAS DONE BY DIEGO RIVERA.

AND WHAT IT SHOWS AS YOU SEE IS A PICK POCKET, THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD IMAGE FOR THE ART MARKET.

>>LORENE: INDEED, INDEED IT IS.

WELL, YOU ARE A SENIOR APPRAISER OF FINE ARTS, YOU HAVE HAD 45 YEARS OF... >>BERNARD: 50 YEARS, I'M IN MY 50TH YEAR NOW.

>>LORENE: LET ME CROSS THAT OFF.

YOU ARE THE SALVADOR DALI EXPERT.

>>BERNARD: THAT I AM.

>>LORENE: WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A LITTLE BIT, BUT YOU'RE ALSO AN ART DETECTIVE AND AN EXPERT WITNESS IN SO MANY CASES IN SO MANY VENUES.

>>BERNARD: I'VE HAD MORE FUN THAN ANYBODY ELSE I KNOW.

>>LORENE: I THINK SO, YOU POSIT YOUR BOOK, YOU PRESENT IT IN A WAY AS CONNOISSEURSHIP FOR COLLECTORS, BECAUSE NOBODY EDUCATES PEOPLE ABOUT THE ART MARKET.

>>BERNARD: GOOD FOR YOU, THAT THAT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT.

>>LORENE: WELL, AND NOW YOU'RE DOING IT, BUT SO YOU SAY THAT STUFF, THE BIG GAP IN THE ART MARKET IS THAT NOBODY'S TRAINING ANYBODY ABOUT IT.

THE DEALERS DON'T WANT TO EDUCATE YOU AND THE BUYERS JUST, WON'T THAT LOOK GREAT IN THE GAME ROOM, MARTHA.

>>BERNARD: HOW OFTEN DO I HEAR PEOPLE SAY, OH, I LOVE ART, I JUST DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT OR I WISH I KNEW MORE ABOUT ART.

I HEAR THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU ARE OFFERING EDUCATION WITH THIS BOOK FOR COLLECTORS, FOR CONSUMERS AND BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS WHEN THEY WANT TO FIND OUT ABOUT ART OTHER THAN TAKING A COMMUNITY CLASS AT THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

>>BERNARD: WELL, IN REALITY, IT'S THE ONLY BOOK THAT TELLS HOW THE ART MARKET WORKS.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>BERNARD: THERE ARE A LOT OF MEMOIRS AND BOOKS BY ART DEALERS, AND THEY TALK ABOUT ALL THE FABULOUS DEALS THEY MADE.

THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT THE SHADY DEALS THEY MADE, THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT THE TIMES THEY LOST MONEY, THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT THE TIMES THEY SOLD A FAKE.

SO, THERE ARE THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

THERE ARE THERE CERTAINLY BOOKS ABOUT HOW THE AUCTION MARKET WORKS, NOT HOW IT WORKS BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THE ART MARKET WORKS, IT'S VERY, VERY OPAQUE, BUT ABOUT THE FABULOUS RESULTS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

BUT THIS IS THE FIRST BOOK THAT REALLY TAKES THE READER THROUGH THE ART MARKET AND I TRY TO DO IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT'S AS IF WE'RE SITTING ACROSS FROM EACH OTHER AT LUNCH AND I'M JUST TALKING TO THEM AND SAYING, WATCH OUT FOR THIS, BE AWARE OF THAT, LET ME TELL YOU A GOOD STORY.

>>LORENE: THEY ARE GOOD STORIES.

YOU SAY THAT IT'S KIND OF THE WORLD'S MOST UNREGULATED MARKET.

>>BERNARD: I DO, YEAH.

>>LORENE: IT DOESN'T EVEN FOLLOW THE RULES OF ECONOMICS AND YOU ALSO MENTIONED THAT THERE ARE ACTUALLY TWO ART MARKETS, FINE ART AND DECORATIVE ARTS.

>>BERNARD: OH, YOU READ CAREFULLY, GOOD FOR YOU.

>>LORENE: I ALWAYS DO, I KNOW, I LEARNED SO MUCH.

BUT ONE OF YOUR QUOTES, I WON'T QUOTE YOU, BUT THE ART MARKET IS WHERE THE INTENT TO DECEIVE MEETS CONTRIBUTORY NEGLIGENCE AND WILLFUL IGNORANCE AND MOST OF THOSE WHO'VE BEEN DEFRAUDED DON'T EVEN KNOW IT.

>>BERNARD: THEY'RE MY CLIENTS ALL THE TIME, THEY JUST DON'T KNOW.

>>LORENE: AS AN ART DETECTIVE AND AS AN EXPERT, YOU'VE HAD TO DISAPPOINT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THEY HAD, WELL, YOU A SALVADOR DALI EXPERT WHO THOUGHT THEY HAD AN ORIGINAL DALI.

>>BERNARD: YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT WITH DALI PRINTS FOR INSTANCE, AND I'VE DONE A LITTLE OVER 58,000 SALVADOR DALI PRINTS, ABOUT 65% OF THEM ARE FAKES AND YES, I HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE THAT.

BUT THE TRICK IS DON'T JUST TELL THEM THAT, SHOW THEM, LEAD THEM THROUGH IT, SHOW THEM ALL THE LITTLE CLUES THAT I SAW, ALL THE THINGS THAT TOLD ME, AND ONCE THEY'VE LEARNED ALL OF THAT, THEY DON'T SAY, OH, YOU MUST BE WRONG OR WE CAN'T BELIEVE YOU, THEY ALWAYS SAY, WELL, AT LEAST NOW WE KNOW.

AND THEY FREQUENTLY SAY, THAT'S FASCINATING.

MY DAD JUST LOVED THAT, BUT HE DIDN'T KNOW ALL THIS STUFF.

>>LORENE: ON THE INTERNET, THERE'S A YOUTUBE VIDEO OF YOU EXPLAINING TO SOMEBODY WITH A REAL PRINT AND THE FAKE, THE DIFFERENCE IN THE STROKE OF THE LINE AND THE DEPTH OF THE IMPRESSION OF THE PENCIL.

LIKE, THERE ARE CLUES, YOU KNOW.

>>BERNARD: THAT'S THE PERFECT WORD, CLUES, BECAUSE ALL THE CLUES ARE IN THE ARTWORK.

AND I ALWAYS SAY THAT I DON'T EXPECT A SIGNATURE TO AUTHENTICATE AN ARTWORK, I'VE SEEN TOO MANY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BAD SIGNATURES THAT WERE WELL DONE.

BUT THE ARTWORK DOES HAVE TO AUTHENTICATE THE SIGNATURE AND IF I CAN'T WRITE A COMMENTARY, IF I CAN'T WRITE AN ESSAY EXPLAINING TO MY CLIENT, EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE SEEN AND WHAT IT MEANS, I SHOULDN'T BE DOING THIS.

>>LORENE: WELL, ONE OF THE CHAPTERS AND I LOVED READING YOUR BOOK, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ONE OF THE CHAPTERS IS CALLED "CONFESSIONS OF AN ART DETECTIVE."

AND SO WHAT IS AN ART DETECTIVE?

>>BERNARD: THAT'S A TERM I MADE UP.

I HAVE WORKED WITH SEVERAL ART DETECTIVES IN VARIOUS LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES, PEOPLE LIKE BOB WITTMAN, WHO YOU MENTIONED, WHO SPECIFICALLY ARE DETAILED TO DEAL WITH ART, BUT IT'S ALWAYS STOLEN ART, IT'S NEVER FAKES AND FORGERIES.

BUT I THOUGHT ABOUT THE PROCESS THAT I USE AND I THOUGHT THIS REALLY IS DETECTIVE WORK BECAUSE I'M LOOKING FOR ALL OF THE CLUES.

AND I WONDERED, HOW DID I START DOING THAT, I WENT BACK TO WHEN I WAS 14 YEARS OF AGE AND I DISCOVERED SIR ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE AND THE METHODS THAT SHERLOCK HOLMES USED.

AND THEN I WAS RECENTLY, NOT RECENTLY, A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I WAS VISITING MY COUSIN WHO GOT THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR DISCOVERING DNA AND I WAS EXPLAINING MY PROCESS TO HIM AND I SAID, BASICALLY, IT'S THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS AND HE SAID, ISN'T THAT HOW WE DO EVERYTHING.

SO THAT'S WHAT I DO BASICALLY, AND I SAID, OH, I'M A DETECTIVE BECAUSE IT'S THE CLUES THAT TELL ME.

SOMETIMES THE CLUES ARE WHO SOLD IT, SOMETIMES THE CLUES ARE WHO PUBLISHED IT, THEY ARE THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT THE ARTWORK ITSELF IS WHERE THE REAL INFORMATION IS AND THAT'S WHY CONNOISSEURSHIP IS SO CRITICAL.

>>LORENE: AND THIS IS SUCH A CATAPULT INTO CONNOISSEURSHIP BECAUSE YOU TEACH US SO MUCH.

JUST SOME FACTS I NEED TO GET STRAIGHT.

SO IN TERMS OF MONEY VALUE, ART CRIME IS IT THE THIRD LARGEST IN AMERICA AFTER DRUGS AND FIREARMS IS THE NEXT AMOUNT OF MONEY BEING MADE ILLEGALLY IN ART FRAUD AND FAKES?

>>BERNARD: WELL, THE FIRST TIME I WAS TOLD THAT BY THE FBI WAS 1987.

>>LORENE: IS IT STILL TRUE?

>>BERNARD: AND THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF SEVERAL YEARS OF VERY, VERY INTENSE EXPERT WITNESS TESTIMONY FOR ALL THE FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.

AND SO EVERY YEAR I CHECKED BACK WITH HIM AND SAID IS THAT STILL YOUR LIST AND THEY SAID SO.

A COUPLE YEARS AGO I STOPPED ASKING THAT QUESTION BECAUSE I RATHER THINK THAT IT MIGHT HAVE DROPPED A PLACE BECAUSE I THINK TODAY PROBABLY CYBERCRIME IS RIGHT THERE AT THE VERY, VERY TOP, THEY JUST HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO QUANTIFY IT WELL ENOUGH.

BUT STILL PEOPLE ARE AMAZED TO HEAR THAT ART CRIME, YOU KNOW, THE THIRD OR IF IT'S FOURTH, LARGEST CRIME AND DOLLAR VALUE IN THE COUNTRY, BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT IT, NOBODY HEARS ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

>>LORENE: WELL, THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT YOUR COLLEAGUE, ROBERT WITTMAN IN HIS BOOK, PRICELESS, AND I THINK IT HAS HOW I WENT UNDERCOVER TO RESCUE THE WORLD STOLEN TREASURES , BUT HE BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE FBI THAT THEY JUST VIEWED THESE LIKE THE ISABELLA GARDNER HEIST, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AS PROPERTY CRIME AND WHEN WHITMAN ENCOURAGED THE FBI TO OPEN UP THE FIRST ART CRIME TEAM, BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNTS OF MONEY WERE SO STAGGERING.

>>BERNARD: I HOPE IT'S OKAY FOR ME TO SAY THIS.

>>LORENE: YES IT IS.

>>BERNARD: WHEN HE FIRST WENT TO THEM WITH HIS IDEA, HE HAD ALREADY WORKED THROUGH THE RESPONSE HE MIGHT GET FROM HIS SUPERIORS.

SO HE HAD DECIDED BECAUSE THE FBI IS VERY, VERY SENSITIVE TO INITIALS, HE DECIDED THEY SHOULD NOT CALL IT THE FINE ART RECOVERY TEAM.

>>LORENE: OH NO, I SEE WHY.

ALRIGHT.

>>BERNARD: BUT FOR 20 YEARS HE DID A GREAT JOB.

AND THE GARDENER HEIST IS ONE OF HIS BIG CASES AND HE, LIKE OTHER PEOPLE I'VE TALKED TO WHO WERE INVESTIGATING THAT, HAVE SAID WE WERE VERY, VERY CLOSE.

WE WERE SO CLOSE, BUT NEVER QUITE MADE IT.

>>LORENE: WAS IT EVER SOLVED, DID THEY EVER RECOVER THE ART?

>>BERNARD: NO, IT HASN'T BEEN, THE PAINTINGS ARE STILL OUT THERE.

>>LORENE: AND THE VALUE OF THAT HEIST 19 MILLION OR WHAT DO YOU KNOW OFFHAND?

>>BERNARD: I'VE NEVER MADE AN ESTIMATE OF IT, IT DEFINITELY WOULD GO UP EVERY YEAR.

BUT YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT VALUE IN THEFT IS, WE HAD A GEORGIA O'KEEFE STOLEN HERE AND SO THE NEWSPAPER WENT TO THE DEALER WHO HANDLED GEORGIA O'KEEFFE AND GOT AN ESTIMATE OF VALUE AND THEN CAME TO ME AND I'M THE DISINTERESTED THIRD PARTY PROFESSIONAL WHO DOESN'T HAVE ANY INTEREST IN IT AT ALL.

AND I GAVE A VERY DIFFERENT VALUE THAN THE DEALER DID, BUT INVARIABLY IN THE NEWS REPORTS, THE HIGHER VALUE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS REPORTED.

>>LORENE: YEAH, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO GET PEOPLE, YOU KNOW.

SO VERY HARD QUESTION THAT WE COULD DO THE WHOLE SHOW ON AND WE CAN'T, BUT WHAT DOES GIVE ART ITS VALUE?

>>BERNARD: PERCEPTION.

IT'S ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE THINK ART HAS VALUE.

YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE THINK THAT ART HAS VALUE BECAUSE IT WAS OWNED BY PRINCES AND POPES AND TRADED BACK AND FORTH.

BUT IT'S LIKE GOLD AND THE MYTH OF FORT KNOX, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE LET IT DO THAT.

THE TROUBLE IS THAT, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEMPORARY ART MARKET, THEY ARE SO LED TO EXTRAORDINARY LENGTHS BY PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST MANIPULATING, JUST PLAYING THE BUYERS, JUST PLAYING THE MEDIA AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT SOMETHING IS REALLY WORTH UNTIL IT RESELLS.

AND TODAY I FEEL QUITE CONFIDENT IN SAYING 98% OF CONTEMPORARY ART WILL NEVER AGAIN SELL FOR AS MUCH AS IT DID THE FIRST TIME, PROBABLY FROM A DEALER.

AND PEOPLE SAY, OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT THE AUCTIONS, I MEAN, THEY JUST SOLD SOMETHING THAT WENT FOR THREE TIMES WHAT IT DID FIVE YEAR AGO, THOSE ARE THE ONES YOU HEAR ABOUT.

THAT'S ONE OF THE MYTHS THAT DRIVES THE ART MARKET.

>>LORENE: WELL, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU IN A MINUTE.

JUST ONE THING I'VE GOT TO ASK QUICK, BECAUSE I CAN'T FIT IT ANYWHERE, WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK TO THE MYTHS, BUT WE LIVE IN SANTA FE AND PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS TOLD US THAT SANTA FE IS THE THIRD LARGEST ART MARKET, IS THAT TRUE IN THE UNITED STATES, IS THAT TRUE?

>>BERNARD: IT'S PROBABLY CLOSE, IT'S PROBABLY BEEN PASSED UP, WELL LOS ANGELES CERTAINLY IS AHEAD OF IT.

I DON'T KNOW THAT, I'LL BE IN SCOTTSDALE ON FRIDAY, THAT'S NOT A BIGGER ART MARKET, IT'S PROBABLY TRUE OR IF IT ISN'T, IT'S CLOSE ENOUGH AND IF IT ISN'T EXACTLY TRUE, AREN'T WE LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO SAY THAT.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>BERNARD: AND DON'T WE SAY IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER, YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, BUT I'VE ALWAYS WONDERED, I HAD TO ASK YOU THAT.

WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH BERNARD EWELL ABOUT HIS BOOK, A RTFUL DODGERS: FRAUD AND FOOLISHNESS IN THE ART MARKET.

NOW, WOULD YOU TEACH US TO BE CONNOISSEURS AND TALK ABOUT THE SIX MYTHS ABOUT THE ART MARKET, BECAUSE I MUST TELL YOU WHEN I READ THEM I THOUGHT OH, YOU MEAN THAT'S NOT TRUE, SO PLEASE.

>>BERNARD: I'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO TRAIN CONNOISSEURS IN UNDER THREE DAYS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, BUT WE'LL GIVE IT WHIRL.

>>BERNARD: THE SIX MYTHS ARE A GOOD START.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT EVERYBODY BELIEVES, I'VE DONE ABOUT A HUNDRED LECTURES, AND I'VE GOTTEN AUDIENCES TO SORT OF CHANT ALONG WITH ME BECAUSE EVERYBODY BELIEVES THESE ARE TRUE.

NUMBER ONE, ART HAS VALUE.

THAT'S WHAT YOU STARTED OUT ASKING ME ABOUT.

ART HAS VALUE ONLY IF THERE'S A MARKET FOR IT.

I HAVE HAD TO APPRAISE THE ESTATES OF LOTS AND LOTS OF ARTISTS WHO HADN'T BEEN PRODUCTIVE FOR 20 YEARS, HADN'T HAD A SHOW IN 22 YEARS, NOBODY KNEW WHO THEY WERE.

THERE'S NO MARKET AT ALL.

SO I HAVE TO SIT DOWN WITH THE FAMILY AND EXPLAIN HOW IT'S WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL WORK AND THE MAN WAS A GENIUS, BUT THE WORLD DOESN'T KNOW IT ANY LONGER.

SO THERE'S NO MARKET VALUE HERE.

EMOTIONAL VALUE UNQUESTIONABLY.

NUMBER TWO, ART VALUES ALWAYS GO UP.

EVERYONE THINKS THAT'S TRUE.

WELL, PRICES MAY GO UP, BUT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRICE AND VALUE AND SOME THINGS DO GO UP, BUT IN GENERAL, ART DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY GO UP.

AND THEN THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHERS TIED TO THAT.

ONE OF THEM IS, THE THIRD ONE IS THAT ART'S A GOOD INVESTMENT.

ART IS NOT A GOOD INVESTMENT, IN THE BOOK I DEMONSTRATE THAT'S TRUE.

OH, EVERY NOW AND THEN SOMEONE REALLY, REALLY CLEANS UP SELLING A PIECE OF ART, BUT IT'S INTERESTING TO TRACK IT BECAUSE THE NEXT TIME IT'S SOLD, IT MAY SELL FOR A MORE REALISTIC PRICE AND THAT PERSON HAS LOST SOME OF THE MONEY THEY PAID.

ART IS NOT A GOOD INVESTMENT.

ANOTHER ONE IS THAT ART VALUES, I SAID, ART VALUES ALWAYS GO UP, BUT EVERYBODY SEEMS TO KNOW THAT WHEN AN ARTIST DIES, THE VALUE OF HIS WORK GOES UP.

EVERYONE KNOWS THAT, SAYS OH, IT'S TOO BAD HE'S STILL ALIVE, YOU KNOW, IF HE WERE DEAD, YOU KNOW.

NO, IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

THE REALITY IS PRETTY GRIM, THE REALITY IS THAT EXCEPT FOR THE VERY, VERY BIGGEST NAMES, WHEN AN ARTIST DIES, THEY'RE PRETTY QUICKLY FORGOTTEN.

THEY NEED TO HAVE A KEEPER OF THE FLAME, A FAMILY MEMBER OR A DEALER WHO KEEPS DOING PERIODIC EXHIBITIONS, PUBLISHES MONOGRAPHS, KEEPS THE NAME OF THE ARTIST REALLY OUT THERE IN MUCH THE WAY THATTHE CLARK HULINGS FAMILY AND FOUNDATION ARE DOING NOW FORCLARK HULINGS WHO'S COMING UP ON HIS 100TH ANNIVERSARY, HE'S BEEN DEAD FOR QUITE A WHILE, OF COURSE.

BUT IF THERE'S A REALLY, REALLY BIG NAME WHO DIES, THE VALUES MIGHT GO UP TEMPORARILY, BECAUSE EVERYONE SAYS, OH, NOW'S THE TIME TO SELL AND CLEAN UP ON THIS, BUT THERE'S A GLUT ON THE MARKET SO THEY DROP PRETTY QUICKLY.

ANOTHER ONE OF THE MYTHS IS THE BIGGER, THE NAME OF THE ARTIST THE MORE VALUE THERE IS.

I'LL TELL YOU, I SEE A LOT OF WORK BY BIG NAME ARTISTS AND THEY WEREN'T ALWAYS GOOD, SOMETIMES THEY JUST DID BAD STUFF AND THE NAME ALONE WON'T CARRY IT IF IT'S A BAD WORK OF ART.

SO INDEED THERE ARE ALWAYS THE NAMES IN THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES ITS BEEN MIRO, CHAGALL, DALI, PICASSO, WHO DO YOU THINK ARE THE FOUR ARTISTS WHO ARE FAKED MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE ON THE MARKET.

THERE IS THAT.

EVERYBODY BELIEVES THAT THESE MYTHS ARE REAL AND IN REALITY, THEY DON'T PLAY OUT.

HOWEVER, DEALERS AND THEIR EMPLOYEES WILL USE THEM ALL THE TIME BECAUSE PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THEM.

AND YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE BUYING ART ON A CRUISE SHIP, FOR INSTANCE, PART OF IT IS, WELL, YOU'VE ONLY GOT TILL THURSDAY WHEN WE DOCK, SO YOU BETTER BUY IT NOW OR YOU'LL REGRET IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

AND THERE ARE ALL THESE LINES, IN FACT, THERE ARE MANY, MANY GALLERIES I KNOW THAT ALWAYS HIRE EMPLOYEES WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ART.

AND THEN THEY PUT THEM THROUGH A SEVERAL DAY TRAINING SESSION, SO THEY LEARN ALL THE PHRASES.

THEY LEARN HOW TO USE THE SIX MYTHS TO SELL ART, BUT WHEN I ENGAGE THEM IN A CONVERSATION, THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ART.

THEY JUST KNOW HOW TO, YOU KNOW, LIKE ALL SALES PEOPLE, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT PHRASES TO AND OF COURSE, WHEN I'VE BEEN WORKING ON FEDERAL ART FRAUD PROSECUTIONS, I'VE FREQUENTLY HAD THE LISTS THAT THE SALESMAN WERE USING IN BOILER ROOM OPERATIONS.

AND THEY ARE SCRIPTS, YOU KNOW, IF THEY SAY, WELL, I'LL HAVE TO ASK MY HUSBAND, HERE'S THE ANSWER.

AND SO A LOT OF IT WORKS THAT WAY.

THERE'S ONLY ONE THING IMPORTANT IN BUYING ART, RESPONDING TO IT, LOVING IT, WANTING TO LIVE WITH IT, SAYING, I THINK 30 YEARS FROM NOW, I WILL STILL CARE ABOUT THIS, NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE YOUR NEIGHBOR OVER AND KNOCK HIS SOCKS OFF BY WHAT'S HANGING OVER YOUR FIREPLACE OR BECAUSE IT'S THE HOTTEST THING OR BECAUSE YOUR FRIEND BOUGHT ONE OF THESE OR FOR ANY OTHER REASON, YOU BUY IT ONLY BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU ARE THE SALVADOR DALI EXPERT AND OF THE FOUR THAT YOU MENTIONED, HE IS SUCH, LIKE YOU SAID, I DON'T TAKE DRUGS, I AM DRUGS.

>>BERNARD: GOOD QUOTE.

>>LORENE: I MEAN ALL OF HIS QUOTES ABOUT HIS ART AND EVERYTHING AND HOW HE LOOKED WITH THE MUSTACHE, JUST AN EXTRAORDINARY BEING.

AND SO HOW DID YOU END UP BEING THE DALI EXPERT AND WHAT KIND OF THINGS HAVE COME YOUR WAY?

YOU'VE HAD ADVENTURES IN... >>BERNARD: YOU KNOW WHEN SOMEONE SAYS, HOW DID YOU BECOME THE WORLD EXPERT, I QUOTE KARL MARX.

KARL MARX WAS ASKED WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT ENGELS AND HE SAID HIS PROMINENCE IS DUE TO THE FLATNESS OF THE TERRAIN.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOSH.

>>BERNARD: I HAD A WOMAN FROM ANCHORAGE, BRING ME THREE SALVADOR DALI LITHOGRAPHS AND I TOOK A LOOK AT THEM AND THERE'S LOTS OF PAPERWORK WITH THEM AND IT SAID THEY WERE ORIGINAL LITHOGRAPHS.

AND I LOOKED AT THEM AND BECAUSE I'D STUDIED SO INTENSELY FOR SO MANY YEARS AND DONE ALL THE PRINTMAKING METHODS MYSELF, I LOOKED AT IT AND SAID, THAT'S NOT WHAT IT IS.

SO I STARTED DOING THE RESEARCH AND ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES SAID, OH, BERNARD, DON'T GET INVOLVED THERE, THAT'S REALLY DANGEROUS, YOU KNOW, THE MAFIA'S IN THAT, STAY AWAY, CANS OF WORMS.

DEALERS KNEW NOTHING, MUSEUMS KNEW NOTHING AND IT'S INTERESTING I'M STILL IN TOUCH WITH A WOMAN WHO WAS MY SECRETARY AT THAT TIME AND SHE REMEMBERS IN 1983, WHEN I WENT AND SAT NEXT TO HER DESK AND SAID I THINK I'M ONTO SOMETHING HERE.

MAYBE I CAN BECOME THE MAN, MAYBE THIS IS MY NICHE.

SO I COMMENCED READING EVERYTHING I COULD, STUDYING EVERYTHING I COULD, LOOKING AT EVERYTHING I COULD AND WITHIN A YEAR I WAS HIRED BY THE SALVADOR DALI MUSEUM IN ST. PETERSBURG, FLORIDA, WHICH HAS THE VERY BEST COLLECTION, TO APPRAISE THEIR COLLECTION AND OF COURSE, LOOKING AT 350 DALIS, THAT'S WHERE I'VE LEARNED MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, OF COURSE.

BY ACTUALLY ANALYZING THE ARTWORK ITSELF.

THEN THERE WERE MORE AND MORE COLLECTIONS AND THEY FREQUENTLY HAD DOCUMENTATION, ET CETERA AND SO WHEN I WENT TO SPAIN FOR THE FIRST TIME AND I WENT TO THE FUNDACI� GALA-SALVADOR DAL� AND ANNOUNCED MYSELF AT THE FRONT DESK WITHOUT AN APPOINTMENT, I JUST CAN'T BE HERE AND NOT MEET SOMEONE.

OH, FOUR PEOPLE CAME POUNDING DOWN THE STAIRS, IT'S IN AN OLD CASTLE, TORRE GALATEA.

WE HAD A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL MEETING AND THEY SAID, HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE MUSEUM YET, THE TIRO MUSEUM, NEXT DOOR, WHICH WAS DALI'S OWN MUSEUM.

AND I SAID, NO, WE'RE GOING TO GO TONIGHT.

AND THEY SAID, HAVE YOU BEEN TO DALI'S HOUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN OPEN FOR TWO MONTHS NOW.

AND I SAID, NO, WE'RE GOING TO GO THERE TOMORROW.

SO ONE OF THE PEOPLE GOT UP AND LEFT AND CAME BACK AND GAVE US PASSES TO THE TWO OF THEM.

WHEN WE ARRIVED AT THE MUSEUM THAT NIGHT AT 1130, WHICH IS WHEN WE WERE TOLD TO GET THERE, BECAUSE IT STAYED OPEN UNTIL ONE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, IT'S SO POPULAR.

AND THEN THE NEXT DAY, WHEN WE GOT TO DALI'S HOUSE FOR OUR FOUR O'CLOCK APPOINTMENT, WE FOUND THAT THE TWO INSTITUTIONS WERE CLOSED.

SO I COULD BE THERE ALL ALONE.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>BERNARD: AND THEY'D SAY PUSH THIS BUTTON AND I'D HAVE THREE HOURS IN THE MUSEUM WITH MY SON IN DALI'S HOUSE, YOU KNOW, THREE HOURS, TWO AND A HALF, WHATEVER.

SO IT'S BEEN A FABULOUS CAREER OF LEARNING WITH EVERY SINGLE ASSIGNMENT, EVERY SINGLE RESEARCH, EVERY SINGLE COLLECTION I SEE.

AND AS I ALWAYS TOLD MY STUDENTS AND I TAUGHT EVALUATION LAW AT FIVE UNIVERSITIES TO APPRAISERS AND I ALWAYS TOLD MY STUDENTS, I SAID, IT'S SO EXCITING BECAUSE YOU GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU SAY, WOW, I'M SO MUCH BETTER THAN I WAS FIVE YEARS AGO BUT THINK WHERE I'M GOING TO BE FIVE YEARS FROM NOW.

SO IT'S CUMULATIVE AND IT GETS BETTER AND BETTER AND BETTER.

>>LORENE: I LOVE THE FACT THAT YOU YOURSELF LEARNED HOW TO MAKE THE PRINTS AND HOW TO USE WATERCOLOR AND USE ALL THE MEDIA, SO THAT YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND, THE AUTHENTIC WAY.

>>BERNARD: OH, IT'S BEEN INVALUABLE.

AND NONE OF MY COLLEAGUES HAVE EVER DONE THAT.

>>LORENE: I KNOW.

>>BERNARD: BUT WHEN I AM DOING TRAINING FOR THEM OR I'M DOING THE CONNOISSEURSHIP FOR COLLECTORS ET CETERA, EVERYBODY'S LOOKING AT EVERYTHING WITH MAGNIFICATION TO SEE THAT THE LINE OF AN ETCHING IS DIFFERENT THAN THE LINE OF AN ENGRAVING.

IT'S THE SAME COPPER OR ZINC PLATE AND THE TOOLS ARE SIMILAR, BUT THERE ARE DIFFERENCES THAT ARE THE CLUES THAT'LL TELL YOU WHAT IT IS.

FOR INSTANCE, IN THE WORLD OF DALI, EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK IN EXHIBITIONS AND MUSEUMS, IN BOOKS, IN CATALOGS, LOTS AND LOTS OF HIS 1700 AUTHENTIC PRINT IMAGES ARE LISTED AS BEING ETCHINGS, SAYS SO EVERYWHERE.

DALI DIDN'T DO ETCHINGS, DALI DID DRY POINTS, BECAUSE AN ETCHING TOOK TOO LONG AND IT WAS TOO LABORIOUS, ET CETERA.

HE'D RATHER WHIP OUT HIS DIAMOND POINT AND SCRATCH THE LINES INTO THE PLATE AND BE DONE WITH IT BECAUSE EVERYTHING HE DID WAS VERY SPONTANEOUS AND VERY, VERY FAST.

SO IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO EXAMINE IT, I MEAN, I HAVE MY COLLEAGUES ALL THE TIME SAYING HOW DO I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LITHOGRAPH AND A GICL�E PRINT, HOW DO I KNOW IT'S ACRYLIC AND NOT OIL?

THOSE THINGS ARE CRITICAL AND HAVING DONE ALL THE MEDIUMS REALLY WAS...AND IT STARTED WHEN I WAS A CHILD, BECAUSE I GREW UP WITH A FAMILY OF MUSEUM ADMINISTRATORS AND PROFESSIONAL ARTISTS AND I USED TO GO TO MUSEUMS WITH MY GRANDMOTHER WHO WAS A SCULPTOR AND SOONER OR LATER SHE'D GET BUSTED BY THE GUARDS AND WE'D END UP WITH THE DIRECTOR'S OFFICE WITH HER POUNDING ON THE DESK AND SHOUTING, DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, YOU HAVE TO TOUCH THEM, THAT'S WHAT SCULPTURE IS ALL ABOUT.

SO I CAN FEEL A SCULPTURE AND KNOW WHAT THE STONE IS BECAUSE OF THE RELATIVE TEMPERATURE OF IT.

SO THAT'S ALL PRETTY CRITICAL TO MY SUCCESS.

>>LORENE: WELL, THE TIME HAS GONE SO QUICKLY, SO I'M GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE YOU COME BACK ANOTHER TIME AND TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE FAMOUS ART FORGERIES.

>>BERNARD: OH, PROMISE?

>>LORENE: YES, I DO.

>>BERNARD: GOOD STORIES.

>>LORENE: I DO, PARTICULARLY, I DO LOVE ORSON WELLE'S, F IS FOR FAKE, ELMYR DE HORY AND CLIFFORD IRVING AND ALL THAT, AN INTRIGUE.

BUT IN THE TWO MINUTES WE HAVE LEFT, WHAT CAN YOU TELL OUR AUDIENCE HOW TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO BECOME A COLLECTOR, A BUYER, OR A DEALER, WHO UNDERSTANDS THE MARKET, THE ART MARKET.

>>BERNARD: TRUST YOUR TASTE.

IF YOU LIKE SOMETHING, YOU'RE RIGHT, IF YOU DON'T, YOU'RE RIGHT ALSO.

MY TASTE IS NO BETTER THAN YOUR TASTE, IT'S JUST DIFFERENT.

EVEN THE ROMANS SAID, "DE GUSTIBUS NON DISPUTANDUM EST," TASTES ARE NOT DISPUTABLE.

SO FOLLOW IT AND SPEND TIME, WHY DO I LIKE THIS, WHAT DO I LIKE ABOUT IT AND RIGHT THERE YOU'RE STARTING TO EDUCATE YOURSELF AND DON'T WASTE TIME WITH THINGS THAT REALLY TURN YOU OFF OR YOU FIND REPUGNANT, PURSUE WHAT YOU LIKE, BECAUSE YOUR TASTE IS RIGHT, BUT OVER TIME, THE GOOD NEWS IS IT'LL GET BETTER AND THE KNOWLEDGE YOU LEARN IS CUMULATIVE.

SO READ ABOUT IT, READ THE SIGNS IN MUSEUMS, YOU KNOW, LEARN WHEREVER YOU CAN BECAUSE THEY SAY IT'S CUMULATIVE AND IT GETS MORE AND MORE REWARDING.

>>LORENE: AND FOR ARTISTS THEMSELVES TO MAYBE EXPAND IN OTHER MEDIA, THEN IF THEY'RE WATERCOLORIST OR ACRYLIC PAINTER TO JUST TRY OTHER THINGS, EVEN 3D MEDIA, RATHER THAN TWO DIMENSIONAL.

>>BERNARD: YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING YOU SAY MAKES SENSE.

I DON'T TELL ARTISTS HOW TO DO ANYTHING.

>>LORENE: I KNOW, RIGHT.

THAT'S TRUE, WHAT WAS I THINKING?

WELL, OUR GUEST TODAY IS BERNARD EWELL, THIS BOOK, ARTFUL DODGERS: FRAUD AND FOOLISHNESS IN THE ART MARKET .

IT'S REALLY A SPLENDID, SPLENDID READ AND WE'LL GET BACK TO THE MAJOR ART FRAUD.

BUT THIS GOT ME STARTED ON THE PATH OF LEARNING HOW TO BE A BETTER OBSERVER, THANK YOU.

>>BERNARD: OH, YOU'RE ONE OF THE BEST READERS I MUST SAY.

>>LORENE: IT WAS A PLEASURE.

>>BERNARD: YOU REALLY PICKED IT ALL UP.

>>LORENE: I DID, I DID.

>>BERNARD: THANK YOU, WHAT A PLEASURE.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU, BERNARD EWELL, WE'LL DO THIS AGAIN.

WE'LL DO THE BIG ART FRAUD.

>>BERNARD: EXCELLENT.

>>LORENE: I LOOK FORWARD TO IT AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM