(no audio) - [Announcer] This film is dedicated, with admiration, to the over 4,000 women, men and children who have lived at the Ladd Center.

(gentle instrumental music) "A society is best judged by the manner in which it treats its most vulnerable members."

(gentle instrumental music continues) (gentle instrumental music continues) Best Judgment: Ladd School Lessons.

During the 1970s, the Ladd Center, Rhode Island's institution for those people judged to have intellectual or developmental disabilities, held an annual 4th of July parade in the town of Exeter.

(cheerful brass band music) (cheerful brass band music) - I don't know if we was circus clowns or what, they would shy off like they was afraid they was gonna catch something.

(cheerful brass band music continues) - Parents see difference.

A child doesn't see difference as much.

The parent feels as though that person, either they're afraid of that person themselves, or, out of the best of intentions, don't want their child to bother that person, so they pulled the child away.

"We don't talk to those people," is the message that that child gets.

We just have a lot of problems with differences and understanding differences and placing value on differences.

(gentle instrumental music) - Back in 2008, I was teaching a documentary film course at the University of Rhode Island that focused on the Ladd Center, a Ladd School as it's commonly known.

The goals of the class were to research the history of the institution and to then produce a trailer that summarized that history.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Narrator] The Rhode Island School for the Feeble-Minded opened in January, 1908 when Dr. Joseph Ladd and eight teenage boys moved into a farmhouse in the town of Exeter.

The institution was renamed the Exeter School and later the Joseph Ladd Center before closing its doors in 1994.

The intervening 86 years contain a story of good intentions, twisted by misconceptions, of erroneous theories leading to indifference, neglect, and abuse.

But it's not a simple story.

Villains are hard to identify, and there were many who struggled to improve conditions at the institution.

Finally, it is a story that is remarkably similar to the stories of other state institutions throughout the country.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Jim Wolpaw] During the second semester, my students arranged a meeting with Advocates in Action Rhode Island, a statewide self-advocacy organization founded by people who have intellectual and developmental disabilities.

- Self-advocacy or advocacy, can be different things to different people.

But for me, it's about speaking up for yourself.

It's about making a difference for other people that might come after you.

- That meeting proved to be a real watershed for the project.

You know, it changed everything by introducing us to former residents of Ladd and other people dealing with disabilities.

After the course ended, I continued working on the project with one of my students and several members of Advocates in Action.

Another trailer featured a brainstorming session with former Ladd Center residents.

- [Interviewer] And so what we wanna know is when people in the audience turn on the TV, when they see this, the movie come on, what's the first thing they should see?

- We can start with my butterflies opening and then from there we can go and then we can talk about other thing.

- Two buildings.

- The buildings?

- Yeah.

- That'd be better that way.

Here we know, because we already in them anyway, you know?

- [Person] The buildings.

(birds chirping) (birds chirping) - If I had been born 30 or 40 years earlier, I probably would have ended up as a resident at Ladd or a similar institution, but I was lucky.

Things are much better today.

Unfortunately, there are many who still attach a stigma to those of us who have so-called developmental disabilities.

For instance, most people would doubt that individuals like myself and Maggie and Joey and Jimmy could produce a competent and thoughtful film about the tortured history of Ladd School.

Well, we are going to prove those people wrong.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Jim Wolpaw] To make this film, we needed a trained production crew.

Let's start with introduction.

Let's start with you, Bob.

- Hi, I am Bob Macaux.

I'm co-producer, co-director, and the star of the film.

- [Person] So humble.

(people laughing) You could also just say, hi, I'm Bob Macaux.

Just once more, just so nobody else feels slight.

- Hi, I'm Bob Macaux.

I'm co-producer, co-director, and star of the film.

- [Camera Operator] This is kind of like a medium wide shot right?

It's kind of knees to head.

And then we can move into a medium shot, medium closeup, and closeup.

(people laughing) - [Person] Nice one.

- Good.

- The worst thing that ever happened was when a teacher told me I wasn't capable of going to college.

But then again, I also brought the acceptance letter back to her and had her read it.

- A lot of times people see me and they see the wheelchair first, and they don't think I have a brain.

- When I was a kid, they still call me the other word all the time.

It's just, I don't like it one bit.

- I might say that.

Don't say the R-word, cross it out.

- So you've got what's known as a deep focus shot.

You've got everybody in the frame on all planes.

- Yeah.

Here's the (indistinct).

(people chattering) - Along with training and research, the crew reviewed material produced by the University of Rhode Island class.

- At that time, I don't think you had any rights at all.

'Cause who did you have to defend you?

Who could you talk to?

Who could you trust?

- [Jim Wolpaw] And we also collected footage from an earlier Ladd Center documentary project.

- [Interviewer] So tell me a little bit about what you remember about Ladd School, Charles, give me- - No good.

They beat the guys up.

- [Jim Wolpaw] Then it was time to begin shooting new footage.

- It was routine that probably over half of the population at Ladd in most of the places were not dressed until the '70s.

- You get desensitized to the fact that I'm working in a ward with 35 adult men who are in all different stages of dress or undress.

- We didn't have any privacy.

We did not have any privacy.

We did not have any privacy.

(Jimmy humming) - [Jim Wolpaw] Going beyond traditional documentary practices, we recruited veteran musician and songwriter Mark Cutler to work with crew members to create a musical commentary or chorus for the film.

- Sounded good.

(Jimmy humming) - [Jim Wolpaw] We teamed up with an improv troupe to punctuate issues and events from Ladd center history.

- I'm 50 years old.

- [Group] I'm 50 years old.

Willie, I'm not a kid anymore.

- [Group] Willie, I'm not a kid anymore.

- They weren't called clients.

They were called kids.

These are all adult men.

And I was told to refer to them as kids.

- I am not a kid.

- [Group] I am not a kid.

- [Jim Wolpaw] We recorded crew discussions and debates.

- But why do you think society, why do we still treat people, we see 'em as different and treat 'em as different.

Like why do we do that?

I mean- - Debbie, if I had the answers on that one, I'd be rich.

(people laughing) I'd be rich if I had the answer on that one.

- [Jim Wolpaw] And we put together a broadcast team, crew member Andrew Waylan would handle the historical play by play, while co-director Bob Macaux and myself would serve as color commentators, providing behind the scenes insights and reactions.

- Throughout much of the history of Western civilization, people judged to have intellectual or developmental disabilities were often abandoned to die or consigned to poor houses.

In the best case scenarios, they were supported by the extended family units that typified rural and village life.

- We know, for example, that Thomas Jefferson had a sister who was a little younger than he was who had developmental disabilities and she remained at home and part of the community.

- [Andrew] One early instance of government sponsored support for an individual with a mental disability occurred in Colonial Rhode Island - In 1651, Roger Williams wrote to the Providence City Council and asked them to take care of this particular woman, Mrs. Weston.

- [Voice Actor] "I crave your consideration of that lamentable object, Mrs. Weston.

In great measure, she's a distracted woman."

- [Person] "Distracted woman," what's that mean?

- [Bob] Kinda like another world.

- That lady's in another world.

How about that?

- Yeah.

There we go.

- Sounds good.

- [Voice Actor] "My request is that you take what is left of hers into your own hand and appoint some men to order it for her supply.

This act may stand upon record as a public act of mercy, amongst the merciful acts of a merciful town."

- [Andrew] Counsel appointed six men to provide care for Mrs. Weston.

- Guardian angels.

- Guardian angels.

But they didn't really do a good job.

- Yeah.

(wind whooshing) - [Andrew] One month later, Mrs. Weston dies after wandering naked in a winter storm.

♪ Guardian angels spilled down to earth ♪ ♪ Show some mercy ♪ - Misery.

Misery town.

- Misery town, that would be cool.

- Ooh, stop it.

(all laughing) You're gonna make me change my words here.

(all laughing) Show some mercy in a misery town.

(gentle instrumental music) (all vocalizing) ♪ Show some mercy in a misery town ♪ ♪ I just want to be myself ♪ ♪ I just want to be with you ♪ ♪ But it is in another world ♪ ♪ Show some mercy in a misery town ♪ - Fast forward 200 years or so, it gets worse.

(suspenseful music) - The eugenics movement develops with this idea that if we wanna solve social problems, what we need to do is stop the breeding of human beings who are inferior and encourage the breeding of human beings that are superior.

- The understanding of eugenics was that if you had people with so-called inferior genes or limitations of any type or stripe, that they would pass those limitations along.

It was bad science, it was ignorant people.

(gentle instrumental music) - And they did it in the name of liberal values, not conservative.

- [Andrew] British philosopher Herbert Spencer suggested that the unfit should not be prevented from dying out.

Harvard University Professor Charles Eliot Norton took this further.

He advocated for the, "Painless destruction of individuals with mental deficiencies."

- Like, you know, when your dog's old and you put it to sleep.

He was saying, "Let's do that with people with disabilities so they don't make any more people with disabilities."

- So, a respected Harvard professor was advocating for killing people who had disabilities.

That's outrageous, right?

But where was the outrage?

Certainly not in movie theaters where audiences watched "The Black Stork," a film that depicts a doctor denying life support to a baby judged to be defective.

(suspenseful music) - It really was an awful, awful statement about our society.

Just disgraceful.

- Nazi Germany learned a lot about eugenics from American scientists and American proponents of eugenics.

They were willing to take it further than we were.

- As far as we know, the killing of people judged to have intellectual or developmental disabilities was never public policy anywhere in the United States.

(gentle instrumental music) However, in the early years of the 20th century, an increasing number of people were being incarcerated in institutions.

- State after state built more and more institutions, and they expanded the institutions that already existed.

(gentle instrumental music) - In 1906, the Rhode Island state legislature passed legislation to buy a farm called the Reynolds Farm in Exeter, Rhode Island.

And subsequently hired a young MD from Massachusetts, Dr. Ladd, Joseph Ladd, to operate the school as a training facility, interestingly enough.

- [Andrew] Born in 1876, Minnesota native Joseph Ladd earned a degree from Dartmouth Medical College in 1900.

For the next seven years, he worked at the Massachusetts School for Idiotic and Feeble-Minded Youth.

In 1907, he was named superintendent of the new Rhode Island School for the Feeble-Minded, - Dr. Ladd came to Exeter with his wife, and they took over the farmhouse, the old Exeter farm, and they began building an institution.

- By 1913, over 100 residents, called inmates, occupied newly built male and female dorms.

Those inmates judged the most capable were put to work raising crops, tending livestock, and assisting in various institutional tasks.

For the rest, there was little beyond repetitive physical exercise, which was, to quote Dr. Ladd, "In many cases, the only way to quicken the mental activity of the feeble-minded."

(gentle instrumental music) Dr. Ladd recalls that when he appeared before a state budget committee in 1913 to request an appropriation for teachers, he was told bluntly that instead of teachers, there should be established an asphyxiation chamber at the Exeter School.

- That almost sounds like a Nazi camp, really.

So why would they wanna kill people?

- [Andrew] Admissions to the institution were either voluntarily, initiated by family members, or mandated by court orders.

- Usually physicians, social workers, public health nurses in the community would tell parents, "Put your child there for the sake of your family and forget about them."

- They all said the same thing, "Just put 'em away and forget about them."

- My mom thought it was gonna be a good place for me to try and do things.

She says, "You have to go to Ladd, we can't take care of you, and this is the only place that's gonna have to take of you."

- My mother brought me there, because she didn't know how to take care of me.

She put me on the stove and burned me a little on my side.

- You know, you're back and forth from one place to another, foster home to a children center, foster home to a children center.

And then when you get a certain age, nobody wants teenagers, 'cause they're rebellious.

And then I went to court, I remember that, went to court, and then they said, Ladd was the place to go.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Mark] Use your voice, 'cause I love the way your voice sounds.

And even if you stutter a little, that's cool too, 'cause I love that too.

It sounds beautiful anyway, alright?

- [Jimmy] Yeah, don't let it bother you.

(gentle instrumental music) ♪ I've been seeing different colors ♪ ♪ It feels like we belong ♪ ♪ It seems so far away ♪ ♪ But who belongs here ♪ ♪ Maybe you can see me ♪ ♪ But I cannot see you ♪ ♪ Some people think I'm not here ♪ ♪ You know, I've been moved ♪ ♪ It's not where you belong ♪ ♪ It's not where you belong ♪ ♪ Seems so far away ♪ ♪ Who belongs here ♪ ♪ Who belongs here ♪ - [Mark] Beautiful.

Yeah, that's nice.

- I belong here.

- [Person] That's right, you do.

- [Jimmy] Here, not there.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] Residents at the institution were categorized using the brand new Stanford-Binet intelligence quotient test.

Though the test creator, French psychologist Alfred Binet, had cautioned that it not be used as a definitive measure of intelligence, there were many who ignored his advice.

- In the United States, it became very fixed, permanent.

It became a way of labeling people.

It became a way of differentiating people.

And it became a way of subordinating people, ultimately.

- [Andrew] Inmates scoring zero to 20 are labeled for all time as idiots.

Those scoring 20 to 60 are identified as imbeciles.

And there is a brand new term for those scoring 60 to 80, they're called morons.

- And once you were tested, that's who you were in a sense.

(gentle instrumental music) - On most film productions, there is one person who has the ultimate authority to decide what is included in the final cut of the film.

For our film, I guess I assumed that I would be that person.

Enter Quasimoto.

- Are you gonna finish that drink?

(audience laughs) Only joking.

Whoa, if I have to get closer, I could.

My name is Quasimoto, and that's with a T. And basically, I'm the grandfather, sort of founding father of the Big Nazo Labs.

And myself and a couple of my co-collaborators, we were invited to perform at the Ladd School, yeah.

And the response was that people were so friendly, and so warm, and so interested in getting to know us, that it was like we were hanging out, like we'd known each other for our whole lives, you know?

And whenever people say that we are creepy or scary, I always say, "Hey, creepy is the new cool."

♪ Well, I'm tall and lean ♪ ♪ I never feel beat up ♪ ♪ I'm about the happiest dancing fool that I have ever seen ♪ ♪ Because I'm built for comfort ♪ Watch this.

♪ Woo ♪ ♪ I'm not built for speed ♪ ♪ I got everything that a sweet mama's gonna need ♪ Take it away, Mark, interpret that.

(playful instrumental music) - Quasi's visits seemed to be going so well, and then I got carried away.

Quasi, what would you think about being part of this crew?

- What me?

- [People] Yeah.

- Part of this awesome crew?

- [Person] Yes.

Really.

- Whoa.

(gentle instrumental music) - You know, the film is about stigma.

It's about people being looked at differently.

This creature, I saw as an opportunity to illuminate that idea and play with that idea.

- Jimmy, I gonna put you in the hot seat, I hate to do it, but I'm gonna do it.

A puppet like that, that's funny for kids.

We ain't kids, we're adults.

- Quasimoto is just a fictitious puppet.

- We're trying to talk about something that's serious, something that has to do with adults, we don't wanna have a puppet in there.

- I understand there's a whole persona, I understand that he's developed a persona, and that some of his experiences as a puppet, he could relate to being treated differently.

But he still gets to take his costume off.

- Yeah, not like us.

- I want somebody different.

I'm better offer the big bug on 95, than of him.

(engine rumbling) (gentle instrumental music) - In 1917, a woman who had a farm on Block Island wrote to Dr. Ladd and asked, "Do you have any people that I could hire to work on my farm?"

And here's what Dr. Ladd wrote back, - [Voice Actor] "I do not think we have any boy here at present who would be suitable for you.

The great difficulty is that our boys who are fairly intelligent are likely to be light fingered and undesirable in other ways.

While the boy of lower grade would be unable to do work in a satisfactory manner."

(gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] The population of the institution continued to grow rapidly, fueled by an influx of young men judged to be moral delinquents, i.e., Dr. Ladd's light fingered boys.

And young women thought to be at risk of becoming sexually promiscuous.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Voice Actor] "Dr. Ladd, I know I haven't done right, but I can't see why everybody has to be mad at me.

The reason my mother didn't care for me when I was home was because I was always jolly, always laughing, and fooling around with the kids.

And I tried to teach my sister to dance.

Let them all say what they want about me, because I'm not known in this world by anyone."

(gentle instrumental music) - [Voice Actor] "We do not look upon our girls as bad girls.

But the simple fact is that it is a case of a child's mind in a woman's body.

And no child is able to judge the proper course in matters sexual.

It is highly undesirable to remove these girls from the institution until they are past childbearing age."

Joseph Ladd, Superintendent.

- And the truth of the matter is they were abused women, they were somebody who was abused by their family members, or by a neighbor, or by somebody else.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] There was an alternative to the extended incarceration of these women.

(gentle instrumental music) - Sterilization as a medical procedure would develop concurrently with eugenics and with the IQ test.

And it seemed to be a way of solving social problems by ensuring that people with disabilities, especially morons who could get in trouble, did not continue to breed.

- By the mid 1920s, 29 states have passed laws providing for the involuntary sterilization of individuals judged to be mentally deficient.

So they are fixing human beings the way you would fix a cat.

That's outrageous, right?

But where was the outrage?

Not at the US Supreme Court.

When the Virginia statute was challenged in 1926, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the state.

(suspenseful music) - [Voice Actor] "It is better for all the world that instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind.

Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., majority opinion.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Jim Wolpaw] You got all these pictures of women.

- Yeah, I like girls, Jimmy.

It's more than that.

It's kind of more than relating to girls.

They don't make them anymore like me, they threw the pattern away.

(audience laughs) They threw the pattern away when they made me.

That's it, that's all I can tell you.

Go ahead, brother?

- [Audience Member] How do you stay so positive, Jimmy?

- Huh?

- [Audience Member] How do you stay so positive?

- Aah, a lot of work.

(audience laughs) A lot of work.

It take a lot of work to be like me.

- I was wondering if you do or or did ever date at all?

- [Jimmy] Who me?

- Yeah.

- Well, you wanna go to Biltmore?

(audience laughing) You wanna go to Biltmore?

(audience laughs) (gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] To it's credit, the Rhode Island legislature does not pass a sterilization law.

However, all is not well at the institution, now called the Exeter School.

- There's hundreds and hundreds of people there.

And the original purpose of the institution, which is to train the trainable, get them out of there, return them to the community, has completely been undermined by a lack of state funding, a lack of direction, a lack of support, a lack of planning.

A wealth of lacks.

- And of course, the state never made investments that they should have been making in terms of health, and medicine, and developmental services, and speech and language services, and physical therapy, and education, and vocational training.

The state had none of those people.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Voice Actor] Providence Journal, December 30th, 1928.

"The Exeter School can be fairly described as a dumping ground."

Exeter School Report, 1935.

"The condition of overcrowding has tended to increase the irritability of both the attendance and the patients."

State Charitable Commission Report, 1943.

"The institution stands an urgent need of improvement in both personnel and plant.

The situation is critical and must be remedied if disastrous consequences are to be prevented."

- The elephant in these quotes is the question of the mistreatment of residents.

Given the crowded, chaotic, irritating conditions at the institution, it is impossible to believe that residents were not abused by some of the staff and by some of the other residents who didn't know any better.

- The institutions had a history of abuse and neglect.

- The majority of people who lived at that institution and other similar institutions were victimized.

They were physically and/or sexually abused, sometimes on a regular basis.

- [Jim Wolpaw] But we don't know much about this abuse, because very little information got out of the remote facility.

They even managed to take this aerial photo of an institution that was busting at the seams at a moment when the campus looked deserted.

(gentle instrumental music) Clearly, what happened at the Exeter School was meant to stay at the Exeter School.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] Over the years, many Exeter School residents attempted to escape.

The majority were apprehended quickly.

Maggie Sebastian was more successful than most.

(upbeat music) - [Interviewer] Hey, Maggie, when you ran away, did you know where you were gonna run to?

- [Maggie] I wasn't sure.

- [Interviewer] Just get out of there?

What was the furthest you got?

- [Maggie] I got to Providence.

- [Deb] How did you get there?

- [Maggie] We planned it and made our escape.

We knew exactly when the staff was leaving.

So when the second shift left, at that point, you don't care, your adrenaline is pumping, so you just want to get away from it as far as possible.

- [Deb] Do you have any money?

- [Maggie] We didn't have nothing.

We just had ourselves.

We just wanted to be free.

(upbeat music) We was just walking and we was hungry.

And then all of a sudden, I guess they called the police.

So the police picked us up.

We was in the jailhouse.

We was in "Jailhouse Rock", you know, just from running away, I go, "Wow, we're like criminals."

- [Andrew] Captured escapees were punished with periods of solitary confinement in isolation rooms collectively known as the blue room.

- [Maggie] Nothing there.

Just the mat on the floor and that's it.

You didn't even know what day it was.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] By the middle of the 20th century, many parents had begun to question the advice that they forget about their institutionalized children.

- As people came back from World War II, and they were told, "You know, your kid can't go to school, your kid's not allowed to go to school."

"What do you mean you're not allowed to go to school?"

- [Andrew] The parents went on to form advocacy groups, notably the National Association for Retarded Citizens, or ARC.

In Rhode Island, George Gunther was typical of parents looking for support for their children.

- And I was seeking services for my own daughter.

And soon found out they were few and far between, and what was available was extremely poor.

Arthur Trudeau, who was one of the leaders at that time, asked me if I had to come to a meeting.

And I've been going to meetings ever since.

(laughs) (gentle instrumental music) - The two most unpleasant locations in the institution were actually at the rear, there was a building housed for the men and a building for the women.

♪ In the bad wards ♪ ♪ In the bad wards ♪ - This is the way it worked.

There was a sleeping ward and there was a living ward, and there was a middle ward, a bathroom area, a shower area.

And the clients, when they got up in the morning, were actually hosed down by the attendants and went into the living ward.

And then when they came back, they'd be covered with feces and urine again.

♪ In the bad wards ♪ ♪ And in the bad wards ♪ ♪ In the bad wards ♪ ♪ You never know what's going on ♪ (gentle instrumental music) - In October, 1952, the parents of Tindaro Pinto, a 9-year-old Exeter School resident, were notified that their son had died of complications from an epileptic seizure.

The Pinto family was not satisfied with this explanation and urged state authorities to conduct an investigation.

Finally, in 1955, the Rhode Island State police looked into the case and the true story emerged.

On the day in question, Tindaro apparently created some sort of disturbance.

As punishment, Mrs. Davenport, an attendant, directed her resident assistant, George Phillips, to place Tindaro in a laundry bag and to hang the bag from a shower head.

(suspenseful music) - And the water dripped one drop at a time, one drop at a time, one drop at a time for hours.

And this was a rubber laundry bag, and it filled with water and he drowned.

And they covered that up.

- We can only imagine how many other questions about deaths were covered up over the years.

Totally outrageous.

In November, 1955, Mrs. Davenport and George Phillips were indicted on charges related to the death of Tindaro Pinto.

Later that same month, Dr. Joseph Ladd announced his plans to retire.

Dr. Ladd retired quietly.

And Dr. John Smith, who was trained as an educator, took over as superintendent.

(gentle instrumental music) - And so the question is, Dr. Ladd, was he a good man, an evil man, or somewhere in between?

- He was nice to me, I don't have no problem with him.

- So I would say Dr. Ladd's more like a crazy, mixed up kind of person.

- I think Dr. Ladd is a evil man.

- You know, I'm not prepared to say he was an evil human being.

He was an ignorant human being.

- Sadly, he was a man of his time.

And of course, back then, they didn't know any good way to properly treat people with disabilities.

- Probably the stuff he wanted to do, he didn't have enough money to do it.

- I was just gonna say that I don't think it's black and white, I think there's gray in there.

So like, maybe he had good intentions.

- The place had started off with good intentions, then took a left turn somewhere.

And that's his responsibilities.

- His opinions, his beliefs, his ideas became outdated.

- He had to see the inhumanity of what was going on, because there was so much of inhumanity around him.

- [Andrew] In March, 1958, Dr. Ladd was honored with a ceremony that renamed the institution the Joseph H. Ladd Center.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Narrator] The Ladd School for the Mentally Retarded in Rhode Island is one of many centers in which the most modern facilities are being used constantly in this vital humanitarian effort.

Such special centers as this are devising new methods of assisting the mentally retarded to participate more effectively in society.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Bob] In covering the story of the institution from the 1950s forward, we can rely on the testimony of living eyewitnesses, notably the Ladd Center residents themselves.

- I did not like Ladd School at all.

I've been there 38 years and I was glad to get out of there.

♪ In my house of memory ♪ ♪ Is all I own ♪ ♪ And I'm all alone ♪ ♪ In my house of memory ♪ (gentle instrumental music) - Remember my first day, I was at the Foley hospital, I was a little nervous.

- It was not so good.

They were mean to me.

- I hated it.

- It was scary.

- You were scared that you think nobody's gonna like you.

They think you're gonna be a terrible person.

- I didn't get no sleep or wink.

No sleep, period.

- All I did is cry.

Just cry, cry, cry.

- I try not to think about it too much, because it get on my nerve, you know what I mean?

- [Interviewer] You don't want talk about it?

♪ A constant dream I dream ♪ ♪ Is for you and me ♪ ♪ I have no place to hide ♪ ♪ In my house of memories ♪ - The food was bad, the sleeping arranges was bad.

The beds weren't changed right, the toilets weren't clean, the bathrooms weren't clean, the sinks weren't clean.

- The smell of it.

Just the smell, you know?

- The day room had hard benches.

I mean, people couldn't even sit on 'em because they were so hard.

- Everybody sleep in a room with a lot of bed in there.

- You gotta watch out getting up, you know, or bump into people or bump into.

- You didn't have any privacy, you know, any time you went to the bathroom or anything like that.

- No privacy, we didn't have no privacy, whatsoever.

Everybody saw everybody else's stuff.

- Fighting in the main hall, I can't stand the fights.

I couldn't stand the fights.

- I learnt how to fight there.

I never, you know, got into a fist fight, you know, I never knew about fighting.

- I didn't like it, 'cause a lot of fighting there and the food was rotten.

♪ My house is a prison ♪ ♪ With memories around you ♪ ♪ With no place to hide ♪ ♪ In my house of memories ♪ - He used to lay on top of me, when I was a little kid.

They did bad things to me there.

- He beat the guys up.

- He beat you all the time with the belt, okay?

- This lady named Mrs. Fobar, she gave me a terrible beating and she threw me in detension room and threw the hot food at me.

- One of the attendants smacked me in the face, one of the attendants hit me in the back.

- They let 'em beat you up.

They had a right to do it.

- Staff used to make me use toothbrushes on the toilet.

- [Interviewer] They made you clean the toilet with the toothbrush?

- Yep.

- If you were bad, they used to give you cold showers.

- Like, if you were sick, you'll wake up and you'll be in a straight jacket or your hands would be tied.

- It never got better, Jim, never.

♪ Oh, yes, in my house of memory ♪ - And you had to either be a survivor or not survive.

♪ Oh, yes, in my house of memory ♪ (audience applauding) - [Person] That is excellent.

(gentle instrumental music) Excellent.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Jim Wolpaw] It would be easy to demonize the Ladd staff.

- Every staff in that place would treat us like dirt.

- But it's more complicated than that.

- If you're put in an area taking care of 70 or 80 people by yourself, you can't do a very good job taking care of people.

Not possible.

- You know, there was some nice people.

I wouldn't say everybody was bad or everybody was unkind.

- The great majority of people that I work with were sensitive, caring, and hardworking.

- Some was good, some was bad, it was like half and a half.

- 85 to 95% of our staff wanted to do a good job.

- Most of the staff did not mistreat people.

Most of the staff were really very decent people and tried to help people, despite the administrators and despite the politicians.

- By the 1970s, there was considerable funding available to the Ladd Center from federal programs and state bond issues.

Improvements were made to the physical plant and more staff was hired.

(gentle instrumental music) - I came to work one Sunday in February, 1973, and they'd taken me to Houw Building to show me where I would be working.

And it was the shock of my life walking into that room.

Immediately inside the door on the right hand side against the wall was a table.

And on top of the table, there was a man lying there.

He was half naked, he was covered with food, he was filthy, and he was smoking a corn cob pipe.

And he's just lying there, he saw me, and he jumps up and he says, "I'm gonna hit the new guy."

- Yow.

My first day at Ladd was pretty frightening.

We walked into this locked ward, and I just remember so vividly the smell, the sounds, and was shocked by what I saw.

(gentle instrumental music) - So the person I was with, he warned me, "Don't sit down unless you have your back to the wall."

I asked him what I was supposed to be doing, and he said, you know, "Just hang around here.

If there's any fights, break up the fights."

- I quickly learned from the seasoned staff that a good day was the day when everybody was sitting around the day hall and not causing problems.

- So there I sat with my back to the wall.

- And I pretty much was in terror that whole first day, first shift.

(gentle instrumental music) - As my assignment would take me to Ladd School out of the Office of Mental Retardation.

It became pretty impossible to continue to go down there without raising a little hell about it.

So I would come back and tell my boss, Dr. Pelosi, about the horrible conditions at Ladd, and usually that went ignored.

And one day I just sat down and wrote a fairly scathing memo to Dr. Pelosi, and he sent it up to Dr. Cannon who proceeded to call me up.

And I was pretty thrilled to be called all the way up to the director's office.

Well, he sat me down, and he said he had a solution for my problem with Ladd School.

And I asked him what it was?

And he said, "Well, you're fired."

- [Andrew] In his capacity as president of the Rhode Island ARC, George Nazareth toward the back wards of the Ladd Center.

- Nothing prepared me for what I saw when I went into the male dorm and the female dorm.

People that looked to me like they were zombies.

They had no life in their eyes.

They didn't even know that I was there.

I got into my car and drove to the Rhode Island State House, and it was Governor Licht who was governor.

And I went into the office and I said, "I'm staying here until I get to see the governor today."

Finally, he let me in.

And he did not promise that he would go see the back wards of Ladd School.

- [Andrew] Although Governor Licht did not visit Ladd School, he did send George Gunther there.

- At one time, I was complaining to Governor Frank Licht about the conditions at Ladd, and he's not doing enough, and this and that.

And he kind of offhandedly said, "Well, if you think you can fix 'em, why don't you go down and fix 'em?"

So I went as assistant superintendent.

(gentle instrumental music) - I encountered a whole culture of crass ignorance, lack of knowledge, lack of thinking it through, just doing it the way it's always been done.

They said that when a child was admitted, that we're not gonna allow any visitors for a month.

They can't have any visitors, not a mother, father.

And the reason for that was given to me, these are things you discover when you get in there, is so they can get control of the person.

They're gonna bring them under control.

- They call it Ladd logic, it was a different reality there.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] For those judged to be capable of learning, basic classes were held in academics and the arts.

And while there were some dedicated teachers.

- Mr. Rossi, he was an old school teacher.

He taught me how to write my name.

- [Andrew] The results were, at best, mixed.

- They taught me how to play blocks.

I told one of the teachers, I said, "I ain't no kid, I ain't gonna play with no block.

What do you think I am?

I wanna read, I wanna do my arithmetic, I'm wanna be smart.

I don't wanna play blocks, that's no good."

(gentle instrumental music) - The canteen had a soda bar, and they had sandwiches and all kinds, just like a regular snack bar.

And it was a place the clients loved to go.

- Every once in a while you go there and you get something to eat or drink, and you have a little dancing and all that kind of jazz.

- That was a good time at the canteen there.

- Plus the movie house, we had a beautiful movie auditorium.

And that was a social place on Friday nights.

- Got the movie, got this canteen.

- [Jim Healey] But Dr. Smith had begged for and finally got a swimming pool through donations.

(water splashing) - I used to sing at Ladd School.

We used to play the drums.

We used the dance over there.

We used to have a party over there.

We had a lot of fun over there.

Yep, we had a lot of fun at Ladd School, yep.

I hope I don't have to go back there never.

- You didn't have celebrations there.

I mean, even Christmas kind of wasn't on Christmas, or you just get candy for Halloween, or church was on Saturday.

Everything was a little bit off.

(gentle instrumental music) - Now, I'm minding my own business, okay?

What happened was this butterfly came out of nowhere.

It was coming closer, and closer, and closer.

And then I identified it, it was an orange and polka dotted monarch butterfly.

And guess where it landed?

Here on this shoulder.

Now, when he landed on that shoulder, I had stood very, very quiet.

I didn't wanna make him nervous.

Then he tickled my neck and he flew away.

But, when he flew away, I said to myself, I said, "Someday I'm gonna get my freedom."

(wind whooshing) (gentle instrumental music) - They check your teeth, if they need to be pulled, they would just do it without anything.

- They put the thing on the dentist, pull my teeth, no morphine.

- You're screaming, you're yelling, you know nothing.

- [Andrew] Jim Healey returned his attention to Ladd School as Executive Director of the Rhode Island ARC.

- One day I went into George Gunther's office, and he excused himself, and when he did, I always looked and then read people's mail.

(people laughing) You know, and so I saw this memo.

It was a letter, it was from David Greer, the dean of the Brown Medical School, to Joseph Bevilacqua, who was then the director of the department.

And it says, "If you don't close the Ladd dental clinic, there'll be a major catastrophe or death."

- Several weeks later, Healey read the dental report at a closed ARC board meeting.

Listening at a keyhole was a young Providence Journal reporter named Peter Perl.

- [Jim Healey] Peter Perl was such a hound, he knew something stunk, and he never let up.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Andrew] Over the next 18 months, Peter Perl and his colleagues published dozens of front page articles detailing the many problems at the Ladd Center.

(gentle instrumental music) (gentle instrumental music continues) Meanwhile, in federal court, Rhode Island ARC filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of Ladd Center residents, citing an array of problems at the institution.

The new governor, J. Joseph Garrahy, he moved to fire Superintendent Smith.

He went on to import Dr. Robert Carl from Ohio to run the state's division for mental retardation.

One of Dr. Carl's first actions was to appoint George Gunther Chief Operating Officer of the Ladd Center.

- First thing we did was devise a plan to upgrade the facility so everybody could live in a somewhat tolerable living situation.

- But the duo had a larger goal in mind.

- When I first went there, I intended to close it.

I didn't know how long it would take me, I didn't care.

- That was my objective when I went there in 1978, it's in the Providence Journal, front page, my objective is to close Ladd Center.

(gentle instrumental music) - In 1982, the federal court ruling on the Ladd Center class action suit was announced.

It mandated a 50% reduction in the institution's population by 1984.

This directive spurred the development of a group home system.

- We created a solution which said that people would go live in the community.

They would live in small, personalized places.

(birds chirping) - Group homes are community residences in which usually four to eight individuals live with a 24 hour support staff.

(people chattering) - [Jim Wolpaw] Paula Montiquila has lived in group homes since leaving Ladd Shool in 1986.

(people chattering) - Paula, while she was in the institution, and subsequently, has ordered her life through taking charge of only those things that she was able to do.

She has a lot of very specific routines, and rituals, and habits, and she will engage in those things repetitively.

And I feel that that's one of her ways of trying to control just a little bit of her life, to get things just right in a small portion, 'cause that's the only portion of her life that she could control.

(people chattering) - [Jim Wolpaw] Hoping to get Paula involved in the filmmaking process in some way, we invited her to an early planning session.

It did not go well.

Jimmy, could you move over just a little bit?

Joe?

- [Jimmy] Move over, Joe.

- [Jim Wolpaw] And I'll sit her down here.

When we tried to include her in the group, she immediately did something socially inappropriate that forced us to turn off the camera.

- Yeah, she will do some shockers.

(gentle instrumental music) It's almost Groucho Marxist.

She's a lot of fun, she really is.

- So I'll tell you something that's a little crazy here.

I suppose you can have it, 'cause I could never tell anybody else.

(people laughing) You know, I mean, I've told people, but you couldn't tell it publicly, but I'll tell you.

- [Andrew] In 1986, Rhode Island Governor Edward DiPrete hired a Virginia consulting firm to consider the feasibility of closing the Ladd Center.

- They sent a guy in, I remember his name, and he interviewed a lot of people, took him a few weeks.

And then one night in July, I remember getting a call from Ron Diorio.

It was 9:00-9:30, I was watching a Red Sox game.

I was in my Bermuda shorts.

He said, "You better get up here."

So I did.

And I went into his conference room and he slid this document across the table and he said, "Read it."

So I started, he said, "No, read the back."

And it was the recommendation not to close Ladd.

I said, "What are we gonna do?"

He said, "We're gonna change it."

- The report that reached the governor's desk recommended that the Ladd Center be closed.

- [Jim Healey] On July 29th, 1986, Governor DiPrete announced that Ladd would close.

We had 3,000 people at the E and R building at Ladd, and he said, "It is my decision to announce the closing of the institution."

(gentle instrumental music) - Over the next few years, the population of the institution diminished as residents moved into group homes and other assisted living situations.

The last four residents left the Ladd Center on March 25th, 1994.

Bob Carl declared that, "The beast is dead."

- The concept of segregation and dehumanizing conditions was the beast.

The concept that these people will not be treated like people, that was the beast.

(gentle instrumental music) - I think we've come a long way in developing services for people away from the old institutional ideas.

However, we've created our own mini institutions in many ways.

- The problem is we've taken the old myths with us.

We've taken the myths with us that fill the institutions.

We just haven't filled the institutions again.

- And I just think that we've become this, "Oh, aren't they cute?"

"Oh, look at them."

"Shouldn't they be happy that we got them out of institutions?"

And our culture should feel ashamed of that part of our history, and we shouldn't be telling people, "Well, you're lucky you're not in an institution."

- We've got to do this all over again.

We've gotta erase everything from our minds and begin to think anew.

If we don't, we're stuck and we're really in trouble.

And so are the people with disabilities.

- I wish it was as easy as flipping a switch you know, like, of knowledge and of enlightenment, I guess, I'll say enlightenment.

- So where is that enlightenment switch?

You know, what are we missing in the way that we treat people who have disabilities?

- I think that Aretha Franklin has the answer to that question: R-E-S-P-E-C-T. We need respect.

We need to be treated like people.

People of all sorts of capabilities, and some weaknesses.

People with ideas, and dreams, and humor.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Jim Wolpaw] Maggie Sebastian was 25 when she left Ladd School and moved into a group home.

She might still be in the group home system, if not for those people who respected her enough to recognize that she was a reliable, compassionate, patient, individual.

Just the type of person needed to provide support for people who have profound disabilities.

- Here's the backyard and my little deck.

(chuckles) Oh, yuck.

Oh, I gotta shut this gate.

I gotta shut this gate.

- [Jim Wolpaw] After a 25 year career supporting people who have disabilities for the South Kingstown School System, Maggie retired to the home she owns in Wakefield, - You know, coming out, I gotta cut this, yuck.

This is international medal, silver.

This one was a Unified, that's a gold.

- [Jim Wolpaw] In her basement, Maggie displays just a portion of the medals that make her arguably Rhode Island's most decorated Special Olympian.

- [Maggie] Gold, silver, and bronze.

Mostly gold.

(gentle instrumental music) - Most of those people are very attractive people.

They're funny, they're joyous, they're all friendly, they've all got ideas, they've all got thoughts and opinions, they're just like you and me.

- I think this understanding of, well, we're all people, and talk to me, and I'll tell you I'm a person, and let me tell you about myself and who I am.

(gentle instrumental music) - I feel different because I have down syndrome.

When I try to talk, I stutter by it, yeah.

But I write my feelings out into a song.

Yeah.

(gentle instrumental music) (gentle instrumental music continues) (gentle instrumental music continues) - Some reason I just collect butterflies.

I just a butterfly freak and that's who I am.

- It should be within everybody's (sighs) space to be free and independent, what that means.

But it may not mean the same thing to one person than another.

But for me, as a wheelchair user, for example, I can be free and independent.

A lot of people don't think I can be free and independent.

They consider me bound and confined, and they consider me dependent because of an environment that might restrict me.

(gentle instrumental music) - [Bob] Let me know when.

- [Jim Wolpaw] Go ahead.

- But I was lucky.

- [Person] No, Bob.

Bob, you're getting too dramatic.

Match it down.

- [Person] You're not on stage.

- [Person] You're not on stage.

You're just talking to people that think like.

- [Jim Wolpaw] Among a variety of interests, Bob Macaux pursues an acting career that landed him a role in the film "The Polka King," opposite Jack Black.

(gentle instrumental music) - I describe her as a kind, loving woman who sometimes seems to be in another world.

She'll kind of look up, and when she's doing that, I just feel like she's got her mind and her focus on something that I can't imagine.

(gentle instrumental music) ♪ I'll do the cookin', honey ♪ ♪ I'll pay the rent ♪ ♪ I know that I've done you wrong ♪ (Jimmy scatting) ♪ Remember that ♪ - [Jim Wolpaw] Watching Jimmy Isom belt out a classic tune while pounding the beat on a table, it's clear that he was born to be a musical performer.

♪ And ain't that a shame ♪ ♪ Bill Bailey, won't you ♪ - [Jim Wolpaw] But apparently no one with musical chops encouraged him to take it further, to polish his gifts, and aim for a wider audience.

♪ Yay ♪ (audience applauds) - [Jim Wolpaw] No one, that is, until he met Mark Cutler.

- [Mark] Just a little less loud, less volume.

- [Jim Wolpaw] Mark, whose resume includes leading a band that opened for Bob Dylan on a national tour, treated Jimmy as a fellow musician.

You know, he respected him as an equal, a peer, and Jimmy ran with it.

- [Jimmy] Who loved me anyway.

You love me, Bill?

- No.

- Of course I do.

- Who loves me?

- I love you, Jimmy.

(both scatting) ♪ Somebody love you ♪ (scatting together) ♪ Somebody loves you ♪ ♪ Do you love me ♪ - Do you drink beer or anything like that?

- No.

Mark, hey, are you alright?

(all laughing) This is what I drink, right here.

- I'm just asking.

- No way.

- Okay, okay.

- You ain't gonna get me drunked up.

(Mark laughing) ♪ You ain't gonna get Jimmy drunk ♪ ♪ You wanna try to get me drunk ♪ ♪ I said, you ain't gonna get Jimmy drunk ♪ ♪ Jimmy won't get drunk ♪ (Jimmy scatting) - Jimmy won't get drunk.

(laughs) - Write that down.

- I like that one.

♪ Jimmy ain't gonna get drunk ♪ - [Jim Wolpaw] I can't help but wonder what Jimmy might have accomplished in music if he had been acknowledged by somebody like Mark at age 17 rather than at 67.

♪ You are my sunshine ♪ ♪ My only sunshine ♪ ♪ You make me happy ♪ ♪ When skies are gray ♪ ♪ You'll never know, dear ♪ ♪ How much I love you ♪ ♪ Please don't take ♪ ♪ My sunshine away ♪ ♪ Please don't take my sunshine away ♪ (audience applauding and cheering) - Jimmy Isom, ladies and gentlemen.

- Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, guys.

(audience applauding and cheering) - I don't know any community more inclusive than the community of people with developmental disabilities.

I don't know of one, I really don't.

And I think we all can learn a lot from that.

- I mean, I'm nice to everybody, you know what I'm saying?

I'm nice to everybody.

Everybody should be like me.

Believe me when I tell you, you know?

(no audio) (gentle instrumental music) ♪ I've been seeing different colors ♪ ♪ It feels like you belong ♪ ♪ It seems so far away ♪ ♪ But who belongs here ♪ ♪ Maybe you can see me ♪ ♪ But I cannot see you ♪ ♪ Some people think I'm not here ♪ ♪ You know, I've been moved ♪ ♪ It's not where you belong ♪ ♪ It's not where you belong ♪ ♪ Seems so far away ♪ ♪ Who belongs here ♪ ♪ Who belongs here ♪ ♪ I won't come back ♪ ♪ I won't come back ♪ ♪ I won't come back ♪ ♪ Never come back again ♪ ♪ I wouldn't come back ♪ ♪ I wouldn't come back ♪ ♪ I wouldn't come back ♪ ♪ Never come back again ♪ (gentle instrumental music) ♪ I know sometimes you feel ♪ ♪ Like you don't exist ♪ ♪ I know it's hard to find a place to fit ♪ ♪ Life can be so precious ♪ ♪ Passion be flirtatious ♪ ♪ A big world can be wide open ♪ ♪ It's not where you belong ♪ ♪ It's not where you belong ♪ ♪ Seems so far away ♪ ♪ Who belongs here ♪ (gentle instrumental music) (no audio) (upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to "Conversations with New England Filmmakers", where we speak with local filmmakers about their ideas, inspirations, and artistic processes.

I'm G. Wayne Miller.

More commonly found on this set as co-host of "Story in the Public Square."

Today, I'm joined in the studio by Jim Wolpaw and Bob Macoux, co-directors of the film you just watched, "Best Judgment: Ladd School Lessons."

Gentlemen, thanks for joining us.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And I have to say, having watched the film, it's just an incredible piece of work, blew me away.

I think our audience for this will agree.

It told us so much about the Ladd Center, but also people who live there, people living today with disabilities, and much more.

But Bob, do you want to just sort of give an overview of the film and your role in it?

- Well, Wayne, actually, I pretty much been part of the film as the co-director of the film, along with Jim Wolpaw.

Jim and I have been working together as a dynamic dual team of co-directors to make sure this film is actually more of a historical complex.

- Jim, your take on the film?

You have a long history here, the origins of this film go back quite a while.

- Yeah- - Go ahead.

- Yeah, it's been a long journey, but it really started, we're dating it back to when I was teaching a film course at URI on documentary pre-production, and used Ladd as the subject for the film.

And it's been going since then.

- So when did it all come together for the version that folks just saw?

- Well, it was slowly coming together for a long time, but it really started when Advocates in Action, which is a local organization for people that are dealing with various forms of disabilities, got involved in the project.

That was after we had had the course at URI.

And their main focus was on making it a film that tells a story of the people that lived at Ladd.

And so that became sort of the true north of what we were doing.

And we just took it from there, and it took us in a lot of different directions, and it took a lot of time, but we finally did get it done.

- So, it's a nuanced film.

I think that's the term that you folks use.

A lot of horrible things happened at Ladd, but there were also some good things that happened at Ladd, which has been closed now for many, many years.

Do you wanna talk about that, you know, both the good and the bad?

Bob, maybe you can speak to that?

- Probably, I think the best part of the Ladd Center, if you will, and I'm quoting the word "the best," is how people's lives can actually drastically change, if you will.

Like, from going through a tough time to a more happier time, so to speak.

It's kinda like a period of growth, so to speak, from going through the challenges of the past to like growing up to where you are now.

So that's why I like to call it "the good times," if you will.

The bad times is going through the torture of living there.

- Yeah, and there was a lot of mistreatment, certainly in the later years, in terms of care of people there.

Jim, just quickly, it opened in 1908 as the School for the Feeble-Minded- - Rhode Island School for the Feeble-Minded - Rhode Island School for the Feeble-Mined.

And Dr. Joseph Ladd opened it.

Just very quickly about how that all came to be?

A lot of this is in the film, but let's just hear it from you too.

- Well, the state legislature decided that they needed a place to send people, basically.

And in 1907, or I think in 1906, they authorized the founding of Ladd, and it was open for 94 years.

And the name changed a couple of times, ultimately being named after Joseph Ladd, who was the superintendent for the longest period of time.

To me, what really intrigued me was the fact that there were a lot of good people that worked at Ladd.

- And I met a lot of good people that worked at Ladd, and at the same time it is considered like a snake pit, you know?

So who were the villains, you know?

Why did it end up that way?

And that was a lot of what we were trying to do with the film is trying to figure out, you know, how the place ended up being what it was?

And we never got a really good answer for that except that people generally are good and try to do a good job.

And if you're put in a situation where you don't have the resources to do it, you can't do it.

And of course, there were people that would be considered villains, but it was really an effort by most of the people that worked there to make it a livable situation.

- It closed 1994, and I had written for many years for "The Providence Journal" about Ladd.

I happened to be there on the last day, when the last resident was discharged.

And Bob Carl, who was one of the key people in getting it closed, said, quote, "Nazi Germany killed these people.

Rhode Island made a commitment to treat them with dignity and respect."

Powerful quote.

Talk about Bob Carl.

He is in the film too, of course.

- Yeah, I mean, he really turned things around.

There was a big scandal in the late '70s, and he was hired to come in and really turn things around at Ladd, and he did.

You know, he says that when he came in there, he wanted to close the place, and he ended up closing it.

And it was not an easy thing to do.

- Unfortunately, we're out of time.

But Bob, Jim, thank you so much for joining us.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Up next, I'll speak to a former resident of the Ladd School who played a prominent role in the film and a friend who worked at the school.

Stay with us.

(no audio) We are back.

Right now I'm joined by two new guests associated with the film we're discussing today, "Best Judgment: Ladd School Lessons".

Maggie Sebastian is a former Ladd School resident with a long history of supporting people with intellectual and developmental disabilities.

She is joined by her friend and supporter, Joanne Malise, who once worked at the Ladd School.

Welcome, everyone.

- Thank you.

- So, do you wanna just start, Maggie?

I mean, how long did you live at Ladd?

- 25 years.

Since I was 15.

- Since you were 15?

Wow, how did you wind up there?

Do you remember?

- Well, first I went to, let's see, court, no, they took me to court.

- [Wayne] They took you to court, yeah.

- And then the judge says that I had to go to Ladd.

- But just like that.

- Just like that.

- You were shipped off?

- I didn't have no choice.

- No choice at all?

- No.

- Where were you living when this happened?

- Let me see, children's center, I was there.

- [Wayne] Okay.

- And then when I turned 15, then I went to Ladd.

- Wow.

So Joanne, you worked at Ladd, just give us sort of a brief overview of your employment there?

- Ladd was my first job out of college.

And I graduated with a bachelor's degree in family development, human studies.

It really didn't qualify you for much.

I had friends that worked there.

So in January of '77, I took a position working direct care, second shift, male dorm.

And I worked there for about a year and a half.

Took a promotional position as a program aide, and within a year took another promotional position as a state social caseworker.

So I was involved with helping people, at that point, leave Ladd.

So I started my career at Ladd after Maggie had already left.

- Okay.

- And if I can add a little to Maggie's story?

- Yeah, sure.

- And Maggie, if she lets me tell her story?

- Go ahead.

- Was taken away at birth from her mom and was in and out of foster cares and children's homes before, at 15 they put her there.

And I think it was because she had a couple family members that were there, no other valid reason.

- Wow.

So what did you witness when you were there at Ladd?

Just, again, sort of briefly?

- I mean, you wanna talk...

I mean, you know well- - Yeah, I do.

- Man's inhumanity to man.

- Yeah.

- That you dehumanized people.

You know, it was a locked ward that I worked in with 35 adult men in different stages of dress and undress and ability to speak or do things for themselves.

And on a good day, there were five of us, and most days there were three staff to do total care for people.

It was quite shocking.

And people were pretty much incarcerated.

On a rare occasion you could take folks out of the building, but that was their life.

- Before I wrote about Ladd for The Providence Journal, The Providence Journal did a number of investigations, and the photographs that were shown were horrifying and the conditions there were horrifying.

Maggie, back to you, what do you remember about living there?

What are some of the things that stick in your mind today, these many, many years later?

- Well, I mean, going to the buildings to feed people.

Like, one ward was with people with no clothes on, eating out of the tin bowls.

- Almost like animals, or dogs, or something, yeah?

- You know, it was sad.

- So Maggie, while she was a resident there and confined there, she would go out and help other people in different buildings, in different wards.

- So, Maggie, couple more questions.

When you got out of Ladd, you did teaching, tell us about that?

- Oh, I worked, let's see, first place was Wakefield School.

- [Wayne] Okay.

- I worked there with a woman, well, a young kid.

And then from there I worked with a young person.

- Okay.

- No, I liked it, 'cause it helped Tim to develop or helped her develop more about, you know, doing things and being a little independent.

- What was it like working on this film?

And you have a tremendous role in the film, producing it, appearing, and whatnot.

What was it like working on it for you as somebody who had been at Ladd and then outta Ladd for many, many years?

- Well, I think it's great that, you know, what you call it, did it, 'cause it teaches other people that don't know about what's going on or what happened to other people, you know, like, they could go to work and then leave.

You know, you had to stay there and stuff, you know?

- Final question.

During the making of the film, you got to go back to Ladd.

What was that like?

- A little depressing, but I was happy that it closed.

I don't wish that on anybody.

- And after you went back and visited, it's been completely demolished.

There's absolutely nothing left of it.

There's a memorial and there are gravestones not too far from the area, but there is absolutely nothing left of Ladd.

- Except the memories and the telling of the story in the film.

- And the film.

Another reason why this film is so incredible and so important to everyone.

Thanks again.

- Thank you.

- No, thank you.

- Alright, that is all the time we have.

I'm G. Wayne Miller and I thank you for joining us for "Conversations with New England Filmmakers."