- [Announcer] The following program is available with audio description and closed captions.

- [Narrator] Art can be controversial.

It can be a reflection of the time in which it was produced.

At ALL ARTS, we believe you should be able to view any work of art as it was originally conceived and performed.

The following program contains nudity.

Viewer discretion is advised.

(etheric tone) (clapper taps) - Live from the darkroom.

My name is Beuford Smith.

I appreciate being the first one.

This way I don't have to follow the heavy hitters.

(group laughs) Appreciate it.

- We good to go then.

Let's do this.

- All right.

- [Russ] Yo, what's up people?

This is Russell Frederick.

- [Anderson] Yo, and I'm Anderson Zaca.

- [Russ] Yo, we are here live from the darkroom in Brooklyn.

- [Anderson] We have some guests for you.

- [Russ] Every episode, we really take it back and show y'all some culture.

- Good photographers, masters, legendary printmakers who are gonna come into the darkroom with us.

- Tune in to Zaca and Russ live from the darkroom.

(chill hip hop music) - [Anderson] So, Russell, who do we have here today?

- [Russ] Yo, we got the Honorable Beuford Smith, dawg.

- Woohoo!

- Let me tell you something.

Little bio on the general.

Beuford Smith was born in Cincinnati, Ohio.

He moved to New York in the early '60s as a young man, and it was really seeing Roy DeCarava's "Sweet Flypaper of Life" book that convinced him to really start pursuing photography.

And he's a self-taught photographer.

He met Mr. DeCarava in 1965.

After they became friends, Mr. DeCarava introduced him to the Kamoinge Collective in Harlem.

And this is where it gets really good.

After that, Mr. Smith became a member of Kamoinge in 1965, started, you know, with freelancing as a photographer and teaching in the 1970s.

- [Anderson] And also like I think in there, what, 1997, he was elected as president?

- [Russ] That's right, big ups, y'all.

- [Anderson] Of the Kamoinge group, right?

And then some of his accomplishments ranged from founding the Black photographers (indistinct).

- That's right, that's right.

- [Anderson] And he was also a recipient of the Cultural Legacy Award from the Griffin Museum.

- [Russ] That's right, that's right.

Tell 'em, tell 'em.

- Not to mention, to be in the permanent collection at the MoMA.

- [Russ] Of the MoMA and many other places.

- So you don't have to travel to Timbuktu or Peru or any place to take photographs.

They're right in front of you.

You just have to be able to see them and take them.

My name is Beuford Smith, and I'm basically a street photographer from Brooklyn.

One of my pet peeves is that when I'm interviewed, it's usually about, you know, what happened in the '60s in the Civil Rights Movement or whatever.

And they like my photographs or they don't like 'em, and they talk about my prints.

"Oh, why do you print dark?"

And they leave it at that.

But they never go into the technical aspect of my printing and why I print like I do.

So this gives me the opportunity, thanks to you guys, that I have an open mic here to do that.

- Absolutely.

- So I cannot complain about that anymore.

Now it's on me, and I appreciate that.

One thing I've been working on in the past year, I've been taking notes on, how do you distinguish a person's style?

Is it because of way they print?

Is it because of the content?

How do you say, well, I know this is a Russell Fredericks photograph?

I know your Anderson photographs 'cause I know your block party thing.

Is that the reason, or is it part of being the print quality or the lens they use or whatever?

So I would like to sort of get into that on my end.

This is my show.

I'm just showing my photographs.

- Absolutely.

- That's you.

(all laugh) - [Beuford] You getting ready to pull me in.

- No, no, I'm just diving in into this blacks and blacks.

- Yeah, that's what you do.

- Because these are the very specific things about each photographer that make you unique.

- Right.

- And you know how you like your blacks.

- Right.

- [Anderson] You know how you like your midtones, and this is why we here, - This photograph was taken up in Syracuse, and I like the rich blacks and the whole tone.

The lights hanging here is that over the shoulder and out of focus.

- You made this print?

- Oh, hey, I make all these prints.

- Wonderful.

- Here we go.

- Just to make it clear.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I make it clear.

All these, I made.

These are from these hands.

- That's what I'm talking about.

- Without gloves.

- That's right.

(laughs) - Now the other thing is this is one of my favorite prints.

And when I print, 99% of my prints, I do not spot.

(calm hip hop music) I have a totally self-taught background.

Nobody taught me how to print.

- Wow.

- Nobody taught me how to print.

It was by experience and just going back and forth.

And I just liked blacks.

And that was it, dark photographs.

That's the only thing that can come from my own printing dark was that nobody else.

And later on Eugene Smith had already started doing my printing.

(calm hip hop music continues) I'm digressing in a certain sense, but it's all hooked up.

There was a gallery back in when you guys were born in the '60s called the Witkin Gallery.

It was on the East Side, East 63rd Street.

I used to go to hang out and go through, look at the photographs up there.

I came across an Ansel Adams photograph, and it was only $125, and Lee- - An Ansel Adams photograph, you said 125?

Yeah, but this was- - But back then- - This was in the '60s, '60s.

After I tell this story, you guys may put me out.

(Russ laughs) But anyway.

I was going through some prints, and I saw Eugene Smith's print, and I saw Ansel Adams and saw Lee Witkin, and he kind of knew me 'cause I was always going there.

You know, then I was, what, 30 years younger or whatever.

So he said, "Well, you know, Beuford, that print is only $125."

And I looked at it, I said, "You know, I don't like the print quality."

- Woo!

(laughs) - He bust out laughing.

(Russ yells) That was his comment.

He just bust out.

I said, "Why's he laughing?"

(Russ laughs) He said, "Who's this young guy saying he is not-" - I'm not gonna pay $125.

I know that.

- Ansel Adams?

- It's going in quotes.

- Ansel Adams.

Right, right.

- He even came back and said, "You know what, Beuford, you can make partial payments."

I said, "Nah."

(Russ laughs) I regret that now.

(calm hip hop music continues) - A lot of people probably ask you too, how do you interact?

How do you break through somebody?

How do you get that photo?

What did you do to make that connection to get his trust to be able to take that shot?

- I'm the kind of guy that I know how to hopefully interact with a lot of people.

I know how to stroke male egos.

I know men into a thing.

And you know, like I would say, "Hey, I like your hat."

And this little guy, I'd say, okay, let me leave him alone.

I'd come up there and buy ice cream and spoke to his parents and his other brother.

I said, "Well, what's happening here?"

I can't pay more attention to his brother than him.

- Mhm.

- Right.

- And I think that was probably the breakthrough 'cause his brother was more talkative.

This guy was a quiet guy.

- He was quiet.

- So I left him alone, and he finally said, "Okay, you can photograph me."

Well, he didn't say that, but he said, "Hey, my name is Jimmy."

I was stunned.

So that's how that came about.

Now this one, the print quality is different if you notice.

(calm hip hop music continues) - Beuford, what kind of film... Is this Tri-X?

Is this Ilford?

Is this T-Max?

Which is- - No, I would never use T-Max.

- Okay, got you.

- Okay.

- It has a lot of blacks.

So just- - Now you tell me.

- No, no.

- Oh!

(laughs) Yo, I gotta hold him back.

We don't want no problems.

We don't want no problems.

We don't want no problems.

- Now you tell me.

- We don't want no problems.

We don't want no problems, okay?

(Russ laughs) - T-Max, huh?

Now you tell me.

(Anderson and Russ laugh) I hope you got a roll here you're gonna give up before I leave.

(Anderson and Russ laugh) T-Max?

- From what I'm gathering, - To be discussed.

- You're a Tri-X guy.

(all laugh) - I'm a Tri-X guy, but then I got an order twice.

For the past 10 or 15, 20 years I've been using Ilford.

- Ilford, okay.

- Mm.

- HP5.

- Tri-X, you can't even give me a roll of Tri-X.

- Gotcha.

- Yeah, you can't give me a roll of Tri-X.

(chill music) Now this is one of the hardest prints I've had to make in my whole life.

- Wow.

- It's this one.

- Okay, go into why.

- Why, why?

- Go into the details.

Right, right.

- I'm glad you asked.

This photograph, I had to deal with the kid's sneakers.

- Right.

- I had to deal with her sneakers.

- White pants.

- [Beuford] Had to deal with this guy in that corner.

- Shadows, right.

- [Beuford] This woman, this guy on the phone.

- Right.

- I had to keep all the stuff.

- Details (indistinct).

- I had to get this down.

Now another thing, 99% of my work is printed on grade two paper.

- [Anderson] Okay, and why is it the grade two papers?

- [Beuford] Because I get the blacks that I want.

- And, Beuford, which was your favorite paper to print on?

- [Beuford] Oriental was the first paper I used.

Then there was another paper called supreme (indistinct) that was made in Australia someplace.

I started using that, but then they went out of business like Oriental.

- Right.

- So then, I found out that Ilford started making a cold tone paper if you wanna call it that.

So I've used Ilford for the past, I'd say, 20 years.

- Wow.

- And that's all I use.

- Okay.

- Everything here is on Ilford.

- Everything here is on Ilford.

- [Anderson] You always print on fiber, why?

- I do use RC to make test prints.

- Right.

- I do test printing, then it looks good.

Then I go to fiber base.

- Right, right, right.

- That's it.

- Malcolm X right over here.

We got Malcolm right here.

- We gotta zip through this thing.

- Okay.

- Okay, this was a rally after Malcolm X was assassinated.

And this is Jim Hardin.

I think he's deceased now.

He held a rally for Malcolm X.

So that was 1965, '66.

- Right.

(chill music continues) This was Malcolm X and Max Roach and Michaux's Bookstore.

This was across the street from Hotel Theresa.

- Okay.

- And Malcolm X's office was on the second floor of the Hotel Theresa, and I went in there once and talked to him.

He said, "Well, you know, young brother, we need people like you to join."

And, you know, this is one of my worst prints.

- What?

- Yeah, this is- - Is it one of your worst?

- Worst prints?

- [Beuford] Yeah.

This was on a negative 'cause, as I mentioned to you earlier, I don't spot.

99% of the time, I do not spot.

- Did you know about his speech?

Like what was happening on the day of the event?

Like what was he talking about?

I mean, and obviously you were close up.

So I mean, just really wanna...

I mean for myself- - Was it an assignment also?

- No, no, no - Right, okay, okay.

- This a self-assignment.

- Here we go.

(laughs) - Did you turn that self-assignment into a paid assignment?

- In fact, I'm glad you mentioned that.

Last year, the Whitney paid $6,500 for a print of this.

And this has been one of my best sellers.

- Oh, God, oof.

- And this, I was trying to trace Roy DeCarava 'cause he had a photograph of Elvin Jones.

And I said, "Man, that's a beautiful photograph of Elvin.

I gotta do that."

And this is my homage to Roy DeCarava.

And this is Barry Harris.

- This is mastery.

This is mastery.

Can you talk about printing this, Beuford?

This cigarette.

- Yeah, this, I made by- - I mean, the lighting, the back light.

- I love the grain.

I love the grain though.

- Like old, its own... - I made about- - Was that at 3200?

- Only a 400.

That's why I do my manipulating in the darkroom.

That's why my friend Cameron said, "Well, you do the same thing with the Photoshop.

You dodge and burn it."

- But then you know what your friend didn't speak on about, Beuford.

It is the education.

But you got to learn all of these tools in Photoshop as opposed to you've been in the darkroom printing for how long, 50, 60 years?

- That long.

(Russ claps) (chill music) This is one of my bestsellers also.

A friend of mine worked for Magnum.

She said, "A friend of mine would like for you to take a photograph of her in a bathing suit so she can send a picture to her husband who's in the Navy.

I'll bring her by the house."

But I thought she was gonna bring the bathing suit that day.

Somehow she forgot it.

So the day I went by to photograph her, it started raining.

So I figured that's it.

So she started undressing.

So I said, "Well I'm gonna leave now.

She said, "No, don't leave.

I'm gonna go up on the roof and bathe.

Do you want to come?"

So I said, "No, you know, I'll pass."

I said, "Do you mind me photographing it?"

She said no.

So she went up on the roof, and I stayed in the doorway there and I photographed her.

I got the contact sheet.

You'll see photographs of her up on the roof.

But I only took two.

- Only took two shots.

- Two shots, that and the other one.

It's usually two shot, one, sometimes two.

And this was a two shooter.

With her, I told her, I said, "Well you know what, I can possibly sell this to the Museum of Modern Art, put it into MoMA's collection."

You know what she said?

She said, "Beuford, the only way a Black woman will get in MoMA, it's gotta be nude."

- Mm.

Woo!

- I never forgot that.

That was in 1965.

I have a problem with this now.

- Now?

- Yeah.

It's been in a lot of shows.

It was in the Tate Gallery.

Then it went to the Brooklyn Museum.

And I said, "Okay, let me bring up the price on this."

I took it out.

So that created excitement about this.

I said, "I knew that was gonna work."

(Russ laughs) So everybody, "Hey, what happened to the woman?"

I call her Madonna on the Roof.

"What happened to that?"

Now I have a problem.

My method worked, pulling it out of the- - Circulation.

- circulation, thank you.

But how do I bid this now?

'Cause that was the whole idea.

But then if I start that, that's like getting back to the slave market.

Bid her in, bidder.

Are you gonna bid on that woman?

'Cause I want this to go to Christie's or Swann Gallery, start bidding.

But then, you know, as I say, I feel funny about this.

I'm bidding her now.

So I'm playing the same game.

- Yeah.

That's a great line that you... See, but you realized, and it made you say, hey, am I gonna join the group that's doing what I don't want it to do?

- [Beuford] There it is.

- This image has so much, you know, integrity, and it has a sensitivity about it.

- About that rain part.

- You know, it's the rain.

It's everything.

- The drips all here.

- Everything.

- The white and- - Everything, and you know what, and this image- - And that was myself.

- For me, this isn't... (Anderson laughs) - This doesn't have no sexual undertone to it.

You know what?

- Zero.

- It has zero sexual undertone to it.

But perception and, again, objectification.

- And that's why I've kept this outta a lot of publications because I couldn't control how they were going to use it.

- That's right, that's right.

- How they were gonna use it.

- And you're not gonna misrepresent the system.

- No.

- Right, exactly.

- Wonderful, that's- - Integrity, integrity.

(chill music continues) Transmitting from darkroom over here in Gowanus.

(laughs) And we want to give a special, you know what, thank you and gratitude to Beuford Smith.

Much love, Brooklyn, County of Kings.

We out.

(clapper taps) (Boop) (Russ laughs) (chill hip hop music) (chill hip hop music continues) (chill hip hop music continues)