♪ TANISHA: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I'M TANISHA SULLIVAN, YOUR HOST.

TONIGHT, "BEYOND CLAUDINE GAY: WOMEN, POWER AND POLITICS."

MANY BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE SAYING, "YOU HAVE TO BE TWICE AS GOOD" IN ORDER TO GET A JOB.

PERHAPS YOUR PARENTS OR A FAMILY ELDER DRILLED THIS INTO YOUR HEAD BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD THE UPHILL CLIMB TO NOT JUST SURVIVE BUT TO THRIVE AS A BLACK PERSON EVEN WHEN YOU POSSESS THE TALENT, CREDENTIALS AND EXPERIENCE TO BE THERE.

DR. CLAUDINE GAY'S RESIGNATION AS THE PRESIDENT OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY SET OFF A FIRESTORM, WITH FIERCE DEBATE ON THE REASONS FOR HER DECISION TO STEP DOWN.

INDEED, IN THIS MATRIXED MAELSTROM THERE ARE PLENTY OF PATHS FOR US TO EXPLORE: LEADERSHIP IN RESPONSE TO ANTISEMITISM, A LESS THAN STELLAR CONGRESSIONAL APPEARANCE, ALLEGATIONS OF PLAGIARISM, DOGGED CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS, WEALTHY DONORS, RACISM, SEXISM AND DEATH THREATS, THERE ARE SO MANY PATHS FOR US TO EXPLORE, BUT WE HAVE LIMITED TIME SO OUR FOCUS TONIGHT WILL BE ON: WHAT IS THE COST FOR BLACK WOMEN TO ASPIRE AND EXCEL IN EXECUTIVE LEADERSHIP POSITIONS AND WHAT ROLE DO POWER, INFLUENCE AND POLITICS PLAY IN ACHIEVING THEIR GOALS?

JOINING US TONIGHT TO DISCUSS -- SUSAN X JANE, PRINCIPAL AT NAVIGATORS CONSULTING.

KIM MCLARIN, PROFESSOR AND INTERIM DEAN OF GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL STUDIES AT EMERSON COLLEGE.

TRACI GRIFFITH, RACIAL JUSTICE PROGRAM DIRECTOR FOR THE ACLU OF MASSACHUSETTS AND JOINING US VIA ZOOM, PHILLIP MARTIN -- INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, GBH NEWS CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING.

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

>> THANK YOU.

TANISHA: LOOKING FORWARD TO A WONDERFUL CONVERSATION BUT BEFORE WE START, I WANT TO TAKE A MOMENT FOR EACH OF US JUST TO REFLECT ON WHAT THIS MOMENT RELATED TO THE RESIGNATION OF DR.

GAY REALLY SAYS ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF OUR SOCIETY, SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO BLACK WOMEN, TRACI?

TRACI: SURE.

THIS IS ONE MORE EXAMPLE OF THE ATTACK OF ACADEMIA, THE ATTACK OF HIGHER ED AND THE ATTACK ON BLACK PEOPLE, RIGHT?

SHE IS JUST THE LATEST IN A LONG LINE OF WELL-POSITIONED, SMART, CAPABLE, HARD-WORKING PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACHIEVED A LOT AND COME UNDER FIRE FOR ACHIEVING THAT SUCCESS.

TANISHA: KIM?

KIM: I AGREE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IT IN CONTEXT THAT THIS IS BIGGER THAN DR.

GAY, BIGGER THAN HARVARD.

BIGGER THAN HIGHER EDUCATION, ALTHOUGH THE ATTACK IS AGAINST HIGHER EDUCATION.

-- EDUCATION.

IT'S AN EFFORT TO REINSTATE SOCIAL CONTROL AND THE FACT THAT BLACK WOMEN ARE SO OFTEN THE TOOL.

AND IT'S NOT JUST DR.

GAY.

BLACK WOMEN ARE OFTEN THE FULCRUM THAT'S USED BUT WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR THAT THIS IS BIGGER THAN HER, BIGGER THAN HIGHER EDUCATION.

THIS IS A BATTLE FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA THAT'S GOING ON AND THAT THE OTHER SIDE IS DETERMINED TO WIN.

TANISHA: SUSAN?

SEWELLSEN: EVERY SYSTEM, THERE WHEN'S ACADEMIA OR OTHERS, THAT BLACK WOMEN FAILS ATTACKS AT ALL LEVELS, THAT THESE ATTACKS ARE INTENTIONAL AND COORDINATED AMONG PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS AND BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE MONEY, POWER, AND INFLUENCE SO WE HAVE TOO STRATEGIZE AGAINST THIS YEAR AND IN THE YEARS AHEAD.

TANISHA: PHILLIP?

PHILLIP: FELLOW PANELISTS, I AGREE WITH EVERY WORD THAT WAS SAID.

THIS IS AN ATTACK ON MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

AN ATTEMPT TO PUSH BACK GAINS NOT JUST FROM FIVE OR 10 YEARS AGO, SINCE THE CIVIL RIGHT MOVEMENT.

THE ASSAULT ON D.E.I.

IN THIS INSTANCE AND THE PERSON OF CLAUDINE GAY BY CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS AND THOSE WHO DON'T CONSIDER THEMSELVES CONSERVATIVE BUT ARE IN LEAGUE WITH RIGHT WING INDIVIDUALS, THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO PUSH BACK GAINS PHILADELPHIA OVER MANY YEARS, SINCE THE 1960'S AND 1970'S.

TANISHA: SO, THIS IS ALL VERY POIGNANT.

I WANT TO GO, KIM, BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT KIND OF WHERE WE ARE, SPECIFICALLY AROUND THIS BEING A FIGHT FOR THE SOUL OF OUR COUNTRY.

REFLECTIONS AMONG ALL RELATIVE TO ITSELF IMPACT ON OUR DEMOCRACY.

A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

PHILLIP, IN A BATTLE LIKE THIS, A RESILIENCE, DETERMINATION, TO THE CAUSE AND TO THE FIGHT ARE ALL CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, DID SHE RESIGN TOO SOON?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I CAN'T ANSWER THAT BECAUSE I KNOW -- BECAUSE I'VE GONE THROUGH IT AT A MUCH LOWER LEVEL, THAT THE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST HER WERE VICIOUS.

WHEN SHE SAID SHE WAS GETTING DEATH THREATS AND HATE MAIL AND HAD BEEN CALLED THE N-WORD MORE TIMES THAN SHE CARED TO SAY, I KNOW THAT IS TRUE.

WHY ARE WE ALWAYS EXPECTED TO SACRIFICE, AGAIN, TO SAVE THE SOUL OF THIS COUNTRY?

BLACK PEOPLE IN GENERAL ARE ALWAYS EXPECTED TO SACRIFICE OUR HEALTH AND OUR SAFETY IN ORDER TO STAFF OF SATISFY THE SOUL.

THE REASON WE HAVE SO OFTEN IS THE ONLY REASON AMERICA IS STILL STANDING BUT I WOULD NEVER SAY ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL HAD THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

BLACK WOMEN ARE OFTEN THE ONES ATTACKED THE MOST BECAUSE WE ARE PERCEIVED AS BEING WHATEVER SO -- YEAH.

TANISHA: ANY OTHER THOUGHTS AMONG THE PANELLESTS ON, THAT TRACI?

TRACI: NO ONE SHOULD RECEIVE DEATH THREATS FOR DOING THEIR JOB BUT WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

OFTENTIMES THERE'S THIS IDEA OF BLACK WOMEN AS THE STRONG BLACK WOMAN AND THERE'S A COST TO THAT.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WE WERE PEOPLE AND WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES AND IF CLAUDINE GAY FELT LIKE SHE NEED TODAY STEP BACK TO BE ABLE TO PRESERVE.

HE'S, I HAVE NO MATT WITH THAT.

>> RIGHT, IT ALSO WASN'T HER DECISION, LET'S BE HONEST.

THE BOARD FORCED HER TO STEP BACK.

TANISHA: SO ALONG THOSE LINES, SUSAN, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE SUPPORTS THAT ARE NECESSARY FOR ANYONE BUT CERTAINLY BLACK WOMEN IN THESE ENVIRONMENTS, THAT BE IS NEEDED TO SUPPORT SUCCESS, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CONSIDERATIONS THAT INSTITUTIONS SHOULD BEAR IN MIND?

BECAUSE IT IS TRUE, THE HARVARD UNIVERSITY, THE CORPORATION BOARD WERE ALL SUPPORTIVE UNTIL THEY WERE NOT.

AND SO, AS MORE WOMEN, AS MORE WOMEN OF COLOR, MORE BLACK WOMEN WOMEN, ASPIRE TO THESE ROLES AND ARE SITTING IN THESE SEATS, WHAT ARE THE 40'S INSTITUTIONS AND ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT?

SUSAN: THEY SHOULD BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT THEIR COMMITMENTS MEAN TO THE LONG TERM.

OFTEN WE SEE PEOPLE PUT OUT A STATEMENT WITHOUT REALLY THINKING WHAT WILL IT MEAN FOR THEM INSTITUTIONALLY TO SUPPORT THAT STATEMENT OVER THE LONG TERM.

THAT MEANS RESOURCES, STANDING UP WHEN PEOPLE ARE ATTACKED AND NOT JUST NOW OR A FEW MONTHS BUT OVER THE DURATION OF THEIR COMMITMENT TO FIGHTING RACISM.

I THINK INSTITUTIONS REALLY FOCUS ON THE WORDS THEY PUT OUT AND NOT THINK ABOUT THE COMMITMENT AND RESOURCES THEY NEED TO PUT OUT OVER TIME.

THEY NEED TO BE PREPARED TO STAND BEHIND THOSE COMMITMENTS FOR THE MANY YEARS IT WILL TAKE FOR US TO CORRECT SOME OF THESE WRONGS.

>> YES, WHILE INDIVIDUALS ARE MAKING PERSONAL DECISIONS ABOUT WHERE THEY WANT TO BE AND HOW LONG THEY MAY WANT TO BE IN THESE SEATS THAT THEIR DECISIONS ARE TRULY THEIRS BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SUPPORT SYSTEMS IN PLACE THAT ALLOW FOR THEM TO MAKE HEALTHY DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THEIR FAMILIES.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS ALSO IMPORTANT FOR US TO KEEP IN MIND IN THIS CONVERSATION ARE THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS THAT WERE ON THE FIELD.

AND SO WE HAD HARVARD UNIVERSITY, WE HAD THE CORPORATION.

BUT PHILLIP, WHAT I'D LOVE FOR US TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ARE SOME OF THESE INTERNAL PLAYERS.

CHRISTOPHER RUFFO.

BILL ACKMAN.

SO MEDIA.

AS WELL AS DONORS.

CERTAINLY CONGRESSWOMAN INSTEAD OF NICK.

SO CONGRESS.

CAN YOU FIRST SHARE WITH US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHO IS CHRISTOPHER RUFFO, WHO IS BILL ACKMAN AND HOW DO THEY PLAY INTO THIS WHOLE?

PHILLIP: SURE.

IT WOULD SEEM ON THE SURFACE THAT THERE'S IRONY IN THE CONVERGENS AND OCONCLUSION, IF YOU WILL, AMONG THOSE INDIVIDUALS.

OSTENSIBLY YOU WOULD SAY THEY HAVE NOT A LOT IN COMMON BUT IT'S NOT TRUE.

THEY HAVE LONG BEEN AGAINST ANY FORMS OF SOCIAL POLICY THAT ADVANCES PEOPLE OF COLOR, BUT PARTICULARLY D.E.I.

BILL ACKMAN IS A BILLIONAIRE INVESTOR.

A BILLIONAIRE WHO BASICALLY WENT TO HARVARD.

HE HAD THE ADVANTAGE OF HAVING VERY WEALTHILY PARENTS.

HE HAS GIVEN A LOT OF MONEY TO HARVARD.

HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT HIS MONEY HAS BEEN USED THE RIGHT WAY, HE SAYS AND HE JOINED -- HE IS ALSO A MAJOR CAMPAIGNER AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM BUT HE'S ALSO IN LEAGUE WITH A FELLOW NAMED CRIMP RUFFO AND CHRISTOPHER RUFFO IS THE PERSON WHO DESIGNED A CAMPAIGN AGAINST CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND USED IT AS A CATCH-ALL PHRASE TO MEAN ANYTHING RELATING TO THE HISTORY AND THE STUDY OF INSURANCE INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM AND THOSE STRUCTURES.

E IS TEFANIK IS THE THIRD IN LINE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, A REPUBLICAN, UPSTATE NEW YORK AND SHE WAS, OF COURSE, THE PERSON WHO QUESTIONED GAY AND THE OTHER TWO COLLEGE PRESIDENTS AND WHAT IS SEEMINGLY IRONIC ABOUT THAT IS THAT SHE ALSO IS THE PERSON WHO ENDORSED SOMEONE WHO PRAISED ADOLF HITLER EXPLICITLY LAST YEAR AND IN THE 202 CAMPAIGN FOR SEAT FOR CONGRESS IN NEW YORK.

CHRISTOPHER RUFFO HAS LONG MILL AT A TIMED AGAINST ANYTHING THAT ADVANCES, AGAIN, BLACK PEOPLE AND LED THE CAMPAIGN, DESIGNED IT TO BRING DOWN CLAUDINE GAY.

BIG ACKMAN ENDORSED ALL OF THESE CAMPAIGNS.

SO HERE YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO ASK CAMPAIGNING VO SIS FEARS -- SO SIS FORCELY AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM YET HE'S IN LEAGUE WITH ANTI-CY MITTS.

SO THESE ARE THE THREE MAIN CHARACTERS INVOLVED IN THIS SUCCESSFUL CAMPAIGN TO RID HARVARD UNIVERSITY OF ITS FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT, CLAUDINE GAY.

WHO, BY THE WAY, I DO NOT BELIEVE RESIGNED VOLUNTARILY.

I THINK SHE WAS OBVIOUSLY PRESSURED.

THE CORPORATION HAD ESSENTIALLY CRUMBLED AT THAT POINT AND SHE NO LONGER HAD THE INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT THAT HAD BEEN PROMISED BY THE CAMPAIGN OF FAUX PLAGIARISM.

THE REASON I THEY FAUX PLAGIARISM IS BECAUSE THOSE WHO WERE ASSIGNED TO INVESTIGATE IT FOUND THAT SHE HAD USED INCORRECT CITATIONS AND QUOTATIONS WERE IN THE WRONG PLACES AND SO ON AND SO FORTH BUT NO ONE CONSIDERED THIS TO BE A FULL-FLEDGED PLAGIARISM.

OF COURSE, WITHIN THE ACADEMY, ALL OF THIS IS VERIED PROBLEMATIC AND NOW BILL ACKMAN'S WIFE HAS BEEN ACCUSED AND SHOWN TO HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN THE SAME TYPE OF BEHAVIOR IN TERMS OF ACADEMIC WRITING.

TANISHA: SO LET'S PAUSE RIGHT THERE, PHILLIP, AND KIND OF BROADEN THIS CONVERSATION.

I THINK THAT BACKDROP IS CRIMINALLY IMPORTANT FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT ACTIVELY FOLLOWING THIS LIKE MANY OF US ARE BECAUSE THOSE EXTERNAL INFLUENCES ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A COORDINATED CAMPAIGN, NOT JUST ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL IN THE FORM OF DR.

GAY BUT REALLY A COORDINATED CAMPAIGN TO CHALLENGE OUR PROGRESS FORWARD TOWARD A MORE MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY, ONE THAT IS RACED ON CERTAINLY DIVERSITY BUT INCLUSION, THEY SCORED BULL'S-EYE HERE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND CHRISTOPHER RUFFO CROWED ABOUT IT.

THERE'S NO ARGUMENT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

HE WENT ON POLITICO AND LAID OUT EXPLICITLY WHAT THIS IS.

ALL THIS ARGUMENT, IT'S ALL DISCONTRACTION ABOUT HER PLAGIARISM AND ALL THIS STUFF.

IT'S CLEAR THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO REESTABLISH OR MAIN WHAT ABOUT WAS CALLED PATRIARCHY.

HETERO WHITE.

INCLUDING POOR WHITE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALSO USED AS A LEVER HERE.

AND YES, THEY SCORED A BULL'S-EYE, BECAUSE OF ALL THE DISTRACTION AND BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN SAY SHE WAS A DIVERSITY HIRE AND SHE FAILED.

BY THE WAY, WHAT IS A DIVERSITY HIRE?

THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN PRESUMABLY.

HIGHER EDUCATIONS NEED TO STEP UP BUT FOR ALL OF AMERICAN SOCIETY AND PEOPLE OF COLOR AND PARTICULARLY WOMEN.

BLACK WOMEN AND WOMEN OF PARTICULAR ARE PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE BUT THIS IS BIGGER THAN US.

TANISHA: AND SUSAN, WE'RE ALREADY SEEING THE RIPPLE EFFECT OF THIS WITHIN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WITHIN CORPORATE AMERICA.

CERTAINLY WE HAVE CERTAIN EXAMPLES EVEN BEFORE THIS OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT SEEMS TO BE SEEM TO BE ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS IN THE RACIAL AWAKENING OF 2020 KIND OF BACKING DOWN ON D.E.I.

NOT JUST THEIR EFFORTS BUT ALSO THEIR OFFICES AND WITHDRAWING FUNDS OF SUPPORT.

HOW DO YOU SEE GOING INTO 2024 THIS PLAYING OUT IN CORPORATE AMERICA?

SUSAN: I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, WE'VE SEEN A MAINLY PULLBACK FROM THE COMMITMENTS OF 2020 AND PEOPLE WHO SAID THEY WERE COMMITTED TO THIS LONG TERM UNDER THE GUISE OF THE CHANGING ECONOMY.

WE SAW WHOLE VERTICALS OF DIVERSITY OFFICES REMOVED FROM PLACES LIKE NETFLIX AND WARNER BROTHERS, WHETHER IT'S IN MEDIA OR IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR BUT THE NEED FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE FUNCTIONING WORKPLACE CULTURE STILL EXISTS.

YOU CAN SAY YOU'RE GOING TO GET RID OF D.E.I.

OFFICES BUT DIVERSITY IS PART OF AMERICA AND AMERICAN WORK PLACES SO THE CHALLENGE IS TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT WILL BE A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN COME TOGETHER, CONNECT AND DO PROBLEM SOLVING AND BE PROFITABLE.

SO BUSINESSES ARE STILL GOING TO WANT THAT TOO LAP SO THEY NEED TO THINK CAREFULFULLY BEFORE THEY JETTISON THEIR COMMITMENT TO DIVERSITY BECAUSE THAT IS ALSO A JETTISON OF COMMITMENT IN THEIR CULTURE.

TANISHA: CIVIL RIGHTS INSTITUTIONS AND CIVIL LIBERTY ORGANIZATIONS COULDN'T BE MORE IMPORTANT AT THIS MOMENT, ESPECIALLY LOOKING AT THE LEGAL LANDSCAPE.

SO MANY OF THESE BATTLES, THESE COORDINATED ATTACKS ARE BEING WAGED IN THE JUSTIFIABLE SPACE, WITHIN THE LEGAL SPACE SO WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IDEOLOGY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES OR TALKING ABOUT PROGRAMS DESIGNED TO INCLUDE MORE INCLUSIVE WORKPLACES.

WHAT'S INTERESTING SUSPECT STRATEGY BEING USED BY MANY OPPONENTS OF DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ARE WHAT CIVIL RIGHTS ADVOCATES USED FOR SO MANY YEARS TO ENSURE INCLUSION.

SO WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT IN THIS MOMENT TO ENSURE THAT WE CONTINUE TO MOVE FORWARD AND THAT OUR OWN TOOLS OF ADVANCEMENT ARE NOT SUCCESSFUL IN ROLLING BACK THE HANDS OF TIME?

>> ABSOLUTELY, THE TACTICS THAT WERE USED BY SO MANY CIVIL RIGHT ORGANIZATIONS IN THE PAST, GETTING THESE ISSUES BEFORE THE COURTS ARE NOW BEING USED AGAINST US SO WE HAVE TO DEVELOP NEW TOOLS AND STRATEGIES FOR BEING EFFECTIVE AND IF WE DON'T PUT THOSE STRATEGIES INTO PLACE WE'RE GOING TO FIND OURSELVES, AGAIN, REVERTING BACK, AS SO MANY OF THE OTHER PANELISTS HAVE SAID, REVERTING BACK TO SITUATIONS WE THOUGHT WE HAD ALREADY WON.

FIGHT DON'T STAY WON.

THE FIGHT HAS TO CONTINUE.

EVERY SINGLE DAY, EVERY SINGLE YEAR, WE ARE FACING MORE AND MORE SITUATIONS WHERE WE THOUGHT, OH, WAIT.

VOTING RIGHTS?

WE THOUGHT -- BUT WE'RE LOOKING AT JOHN LEWIS' VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

WE'RE STILL WAITING ON THAT.

WE'RE LOOKING AT SEGREGATION IN SCHOOLS?

OH, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE RATION INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT HIGHER ED.

WE'RE LOOKING AT SITUATIONS THAT WE THOUGHT WE HAD WON AND NOW WE'RE FACING THEM ALL OVER AGAIN.

THE FIGHT HAS TO CONTINUE EVERY SINGLE DALE AND WE NEED TO DEVELOP NEW STRATEGIES AND TACTICS FOR WINNING THOSE FIGHTS.

TANISHA: SO WHEN WE -- AND PHILLIP, I'M GOING TO COME TO YOU ON THIS QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, REFLECTING BACK ON WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE LAST NOW, WHAT, THREE AND A HALF MONTHS SINCE THE HAMAS ATTACK IN ISRAEL AND KIND OF THE -- HASH IT HAS IMPACTED OUR SOCIETY HERE IN THE U.S. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS INTERESTING FOR US TO EXPLORE AS BLACK PEOPLE IS OUR SUPPORTS WITHIN COMMUNITY.

URGE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STANDS OUT IS -- YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STANDS OUT IS CLAUDINE GAY, AS SHE WAS REALLY SEEKING TO NAVIGATE THIS VERY DIFFICULT TERRAIN, SEEMED TO RELY VERY HEAVILY ON THE INSTITUTION OF HARVARD FOR SUPPORT.

AND MANY QUESTIONS CAME UP ABOUT WHERE IS HER SUPPORT IN COMMUNITY.

AND IT WASN'T UNTIL I THINK LATE IN DECEMBER THAT THE BLACK ALUMNI OF HARVARD CAME OUT WITH A LETTER BUT IT WAS REALLY LATE IN THIS WHOLE DEBATE.

SO, PHILLIP, I WONDER JUST FROM A CULTURAL CONTEXT IF YOU COULD JUST TALK ABOUT COMMUNITY SUPPORTS, WHERE PEOPLE OF EXPLORE, WHERE BLACK PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY CAN AND SHOULD BE BUILDING AND FINDING OUR SUPPORT AS WE ARE MOVING INTO THESE ROLES AND ELEVATING INTO WHAT SOME CALL RAREFIED AIR.

PHILLIP: THAT WAS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK WHAT YOU SAW WITH CLAUDINE GAY IS AN EXAMPLE OF DISPARATE COMMUNITIES OR SEEMING SEEMINGLY DISPARATE COMMUNITIES THAT MIGHT NOT THINK THEY HAVE MUCH IN COMMON EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT THEIR LEADERSHIP BEING ATTACKED IS BLACK.

IN THIS CASE, CLAUDINE GAY, A SOURCE OF PRIDE FOR MANY IN MANY COMMUNITIES.

BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, THE RESPONSE FROM BLACK COMMUNITIES WAS SLOW.

YOU DID HAVE INDIVIDUAL SUPPORTERS, I MUST SAY.

PEOPLE LIKE KHALIL MUHAMMAD AT HARVARD, WHO TEACHES THERE.

WHO STARTED THE RALLY OF FACULTY AND OTHERS EARLY ON AND YOU ALSO HAD SUPPORT AMONG -- OF FOLKS WHO ARE HER COLLEAGUES IN HER FIELD OF STUDY BUT YOU DID NOT SEE WHAT YOU SAW FOR EXAMPLE THIS WEEK IN NEW YORK WITH AL CHARLOTTEN AND OTHERS DEMONSTRATING IN SUPPORT OF CLAUDINE GAY BUT IT'S A SUPPORT THAT COMES, OF COURSE, LATE.

AND PART OF THAT DEMONSTRATION, OF COURSE, WAS ALSO TO DEMONSTRATE AGAINST THE BROAD EVERY AND LARGER ISSUES THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HERE, THE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT CLAUDINE GAY REPRESENTS.

THOSE COMMUNITIES ARE PRETTY MUCH IN SYNC.

THE NAACP.

REVEREND AL SHARPEN ICE ORGANIZATIONS.

MEDIA HAVE STARTED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS IN FACT, THAT SHE DOES, IN FACT, REPRESENT SOMETHING MUCH GREATER THAN CLAUDINE GAY.

THAT SHE REPRESENTS A MAJOR ASSAULT AMONG THIS THING WE CALL DIVERSITY EQUITY INCLUSION AND ACCESS AND BELONGING FOR OTHERS.

IN THAT IN LOSING THAT YOU ALSO LOSE -- YOU LOSE PART OF WHAT MANY PEOPLE FOUGHT FOR AND DIED FOR THIS THE 1960'S.

LIVES WERE LOST.

TANISHA: RIGHT.

PHILLIP: SO I THINK IF ANYTHING -- YOU CAN TURN POISON INTO MEDICINE BY RECOGNIZING THIS IS BRINGING COMMUNITIES TOGETHER AROUND CLAUDINE GAY.

SIMILAR BLOCKICALLY AND AROUND WHAT SHE REPRESENTED AND AROUND WHAT COULD BE LOST IF PEOPLE DO NOT COALESCE NOW.

TANISHA: SO KIM?

KIM: I JUST WANTED TO RAISE THE POINTS ABOUT POWER.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT COALESCING COMMUNITY.

IT'S ABOUT POWER.

I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE LEFT AND US OFTEN GET UNTRACKED.

AL CHARLOTTEN, GREAT, HE CAN SPEAK ALL HE WANTS.

IT'S ABOUT ECONOMIC POWER, WHICH BILL ACKMAN HAS, THE POWER OF THE PURSE AND ABOUT POLITICAL POWER AND WHEN THOSE THINGS ARE ALIGNED AGAINST YOU THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH YOU STAND UP.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NEW STRATEGIES.

SOME OF IT IS GOING BACK TO OLD STRATEGIES.

FOCUSING ON THE CORE ISSUES SO CLAUDINE GAY DIDN'T LOSE -- AND BY THE WAY, LET'S SAY DON'T CRY FOR CLAUDINE GAY, SHE'S GOING TO BE FINE AND DON'T CRY FOR HARVARD BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO BE FINE TOO.

THIS IS BIGGER THAN THEM AND WE NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND.

THE FACT THAT HARVARD WITH ALL THEIRHEATISM AND POWER WOULDN'T STAND UP AGAINST THESE FORCES IS THE PROBLEM.

WE NEED TO STAND UP AGAINST WORKING AGAINST DECEMBER ENFRANCHISEMENT, JERRY MANNEDDERING.

IT'S ABOUT POWER, POWER, POWER.

>> AND WE NEED TO BE SURE WE'RE SHORING UP POWER IN COMMUNITIES AND ACROSS THE COMMUNITIES AS WELL.

IN THE ATTACK OF HAMAS WE SAW FRACKS BETWEEN COMMUNITIES THAT USUALLY WERE WORKING TOGETHER SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT HOPING FOR ALLIES BUT DEPENDING ON SOLIDARITY.

TANISHA: CLOSING THOUGHT, TRACI?

TRACI: ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE ALCU, WE ARE FIGHTING THESE FIGHTS EVERY DAY.

WHETHER IT'S NEW STRATEGIES OR OLD TACTICS, WE HAVE TO REMAIN IN THE FIGHT BECAUSE IF WE DON'T STAND UP, WE KNOW, WE ALL UNDERSTAND WHATLE HAPPEN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

TANISHA: EXCELLENT.

WE COULD CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION AND WE WILL.

BUT WE COULD CERTAINLY CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION FOR MUCH MORE TIME.

SO MUCH MORE TO UNPACK BUT THAT IS THE ENDS OF OUR BROADCAST AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

NOW, STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

YOUTUBE AND FACEBOOK.

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