>>> THE HBO ORIGINAL DOCUMENTARY FILM "WILD, WILD SPACE" IS AVAILABLE TO STREAM ON MAX.

RETURNING TO OUR TOP STORY.

JOE BIDEN'S FAREWELL TO THE OVAL OFFICE.

THIS DECISION IS AN ACT OF SELFLESSNESS.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE PRESIDENT'S ADDRESS TO THE NATION, HIS LEGACY AND THE DYNAMICS WITH JUST OVER 100 DAYS TO GO UNTIL THE ELECTION.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME BACK.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> WHAT DID YOU THINK OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SPEECH EARLIER THIS WEEK EXPLAINING WHY HE WAS DROPPING OUT OF THE RACE?

>> JUST ON A PURELY HISTORICAL LEVEL, IT WAS A LANDMARK MOMENT.

WE HAVEN'T HAD ONE MUCH THESE, AS YOU KNOW, IN MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY.

A PRESIDENT WHO GETS UP AND SAYS, I'M ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.

SO ON ITS -- JUST ON THAT BASIS IT WAS A REMARKABLE THING TO WATCH.

ON A HUMAN LEVEL IT WAS ALSO PERSONAL TO SEE THIS HUMAN, THIS MAN WRESTLING IN CLEAR WAYS.

I DON'T THINK, WALTER, THAT HE IS AT PEACE WITH THIS DECISION.

HE MAY NEVER BE AT PEACE WITH THIS CHOICE BUT I THINK HE IS CLEAR THAT THE POLITICAL REQUIREMENTS, THE POLITICAL JUDGMENT LEFT HIM NO OPTION BUT TO MAKE THIS CHANGE.

AND IN THAT WAY WE'RE WATCHING SOMETHING PLAY OUT ON THE PUBLIC STAGE THAT IS IN ITS OWN WAY INTIMATE AND I WAS QUITE STRUCK BY THAT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE POLITICAL JUDGMENT FORCED HIM INTO THIS, BUT YOU SAW THAT SPEECH.

IT WAS CLEAR HE'S A LION IN WINTER, VERY MUCH IN WINTER, AND HE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT THE REAL ISSUE HERE.

HE DIDN'T -- COULD HE HAVE SAID SOMETHING LIKE, AND, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS, PAST YEAR, RECENTLY I'VE SLOWED DOWN A BIT.

WE'RE ALL GETTING OLDER.

IT'S TIME FOR A YOUNGER GENERATION TO COME ALONG?

>> YEAH, THAT WAS A -- IT WAS IN ITS WAY A CONSPICUOUS OMISSION.

HE COULDN'T BRING HIMSELF TO TALK ABOUT THE REALITY OF HIS PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS.

THIS IS A BLIND SPOT.

IT'S BEEN A PIECE OF HIM OVER TWO YEARS.

IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY.

I REMEMBER ASKING HIM PROBABLY A DECADE AGO HOW HE WOULD EVENTUALLY KNOW WHEN TO RETIRE.

BACK THEN HE WAS 71.

HE ANSWERED THE QUESTION BY SAYING I ONCE ENCOURAGED MY FATHER TO RETIRE AND I THINK NOW IT WAS A MISTAKE.

HE SAID, I THINK HE COULD HAVE KEPT WORKING.

IT WAS AN INTERESTING -- THAT WAS WHERE HIS MIND WENT TO THAT QUESTION.

HE'S ALWAYS BEEN ALERT TO THE SENSE THAT HE CAN SOMEHOW DEFY THE EXPECTATIONS, BUT I THINK WHEN HE GAVE THIS SPEECH HE WASN'T YET READY.

YOU COULD SEE IT ON HIS FACE.

EVEN THOUGH IN HIS VOICE IT WAS SOFT, DIMINISHED, RASPY, HE COULDN'T QUITE ADDRESS IT HEAD ON.

SO HE FRAMED IT IN THE LANGUAGE OF PROTECTING DEMOCRACY, PASSING THE BATON TO A NEW GENERATION.

THE ONLY MOMENT OF RECOGNITION TO THIS MOMENT OF AGE IS WHEN HE SAID IT'S TIME FOR NEW VOICES, FRESHER VOICES AND, YES, YOUNGER VOICES.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THERE'S BEEN A COVERUP IN WAYS FROM HIS AGE AND EVEN PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF IN WASHINGTON WHO SEE HIM EVERY NOW AND THEN?

I MEAN, WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS?

>> I THINK SOMETIMES IT'S LESS ABOUT A COVERUP THAN IT WAS AN ACCUMULATION OF EVENTS AND ANXIETIES IN THE SENSE THAT YOU HAD THIS PERIOD IN WHICH HE WAS CLEARLY GETTING CRITICIZED FROM THE RIGHT ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE WAS DECLINING.

SO THE WHITE HOUSE WENT INTO A DEFENSIVE CROUCH ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF CRITICISMS.

THEY SAID, WELL, THESE ARE BAD THINGS.

AND THEY DIDN'T TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY.

IT WAS KIND OF EASY TO DISMISS THEM WHEN THEY WERE COMING FROM THE FRINGES OF THE INTERNET.

THE REALITY WAS THAT THEY WERE BEGINNING TO LIMIT THE KINDS OF WAYS IN WHICH HE WOULD EXPOSE HIMSELF TO CRITICISM.

TAKING, FOR INSTANCE, THE SHORTER STAIRCASE DOWN AIR FORCE ONE.

THE AVOIDING EVENTS THAT MIGHT MAKE HIM LOOK WEAK.

BUT IT WASN'T AS IF THERE WERE PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHO THOUGHT, WELL, WE HAVE TO KEEP THIS GUY COVERED UP AS FAR AS WE KNOW NOW AND I THINK THIS IS A CREDIBLE QUESTION THAT IS WORTHY OF MORE JOURNALISM, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ODD FOR THEM TO PUSH FOR A DEBATE AS EARLY AS THEY DID.

TO PURSUE THAT KIND OF ENCOUNTER IF THEY THOUGHT HE WASN'T CAPABLE OF IT.

ON THE CONTRARY, THEY THOUGHT PUTTING HIM ON THAT STAGE OPPOSITE OF DONALD TRUMP WAS GOING TO RENOWNED TO BIDEN'S BENEFIT.

THEY WERE WRONG AND I THINK A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE WERE SHOCKED BY WHAT THEY SAW ON THAT DEBATE STAGE.

>> I WAS READING YOUR BOOK THAT CAME OUT RIGHT WHEN HE WAS TAKING OFFICE AS A PRESIDENT, AND YOU MENTION HIS SPEECH AT THE 2008 DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION AND HE SAYS, FAILURE AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE IS INEVITABLE, BUT GIVING UP IS UNFORGIVABLE.

THAT'S A PRETTY STRONG THING.

DOES THAT HELP EXPLAIN WHY HE TOOK SO MUCH TIME TO FIGURE OUT THAT HE HAD TO GIVE UP THE REINS OF POWER?

>> YEAH, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN THINKING OF THAT LINE A LOT RECENTLY.

THAT, FOR HIM, IS A KIND OF CENTRAL MANTRA OF HIS LIFE.

IT HAD BECOME THIS -- YOU KNOW, IT COULD SOUND LIKE IT'S JUST A POLITICAL MOTTO, BUT FOR HIM IT HAD ALL OF THIS VERY DEEP PERSONAL RESONANCE BECAUSE OF COURSE HE HAD BEEN THROUGH THESE TRAGEDIES IN HIS PERSONAL LIFE, IN HIS POLITICAL LIFE, AND HIS SOLUTION TO THEM IN A WAY, ALMOST A PHILOSOPHICAL SOLUTION, TO SAY SURRENDER IS A MORAL SIN.

YOU SIMPLY CANNOT GIVE IN.

WHEN YOU ARE PRESSED, WHEN YOU ARE PUT ON THE DEFENSIVE, THAT'S A SIGNAL THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DRIVE HARDER.

AND SO IN SOME WAYS WHEN THIS MOMENT ARRIVED, PARTICULARLY AFTER THE DEBATE WHEN HE WAS SO KNOCKED BACK FURTHER THAN HE PROBABLY HAD BEEN SINCE ANY MOMENT THAT HE ENTERED POLITICS IN HALF A CENTURY, HIS INSTINCT WAS TO DIG IN.

IT WAS TO SAY, NO, THE VERY SUGGESTION OF SURRENDER IS WRONG.

I THINK THAT IN SOME WAYS DELAYED AND SLOWED HIS CAPACITY TO RECOGNIZE THE POLITICAL FACT THAT HIS PATH WAS CLOSING.

AND THAT EXPLAINS, I THINK, PART OF THE REASON WHY IT TOOK SO LONG.

>> THE SPEECH SHOWED HIM REALLY AS A LION IN WINTER.

OLDER, RASPY VOICE.

WHEN DO YOU THINK THAT DECLINE STARTED TO HAPPEN?

WAS IT IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS?

WAS IT IN THE PAST YEAR?

>> THE REPORTING ON THIS IS BEGINNING TO CLARIFY SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED.

I THINK IT'S CLEAR THAT YOU BEGIN TO GET A GREATER DRUM BEAT OF CONCERN FROM PEOPLE WHO WOULD ENCOUNTER THE PRESIDENT OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS, MEANING LET'S CALL IT 5, 6 MONTHS.

I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT HISTORY WILL WANT TO DIG INTO.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE WERE WAYS IN WHICH HE WAS UP AND DOWN.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN INTERESTING COINCIDENTAL FACT.

I SAW HIM LAST ON JANUARY 17th OF THIS YEAR.

IT JUST TURNS OUT THAT WAS THE DAY WHEN HE ALSO SAW HIS NEUROLOGIST FOR THE LAST TIME ACCORDING TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO ON THAT DAY THE PERSON WE SAW WAS KIND OF MORE OR LESS CONSISTENT WITH THE ONE WE SAW ON THE STATE OF THE UNION DAY, MEANING HE WAS CLEARLY PHYSICALLY SLOWER.

HIS VOICE WAS WEAKER, CLOTTED AS I DESCRIBED IT IN THE NEW YORKER.

HIS ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS WERE THE SAME KINDS OF ANSWERS I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN FROM HIM A FEW YEARS EARLIER.

SO I THINK THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH THIS VARIABILITY IN HIS PERFORMANCE BECAME MORE PRONOUNCED OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST FEW MONTHS I'M GUESSING.

I THINK THAT'S HOW YOU GET TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

>> HE SAID THE IDEAL OF AMERICA LIES IN OUR HANDS, YOUR HANDS, HE WAS SAYING.

WHAT DOES HE MEAN BY THAT OR IS THAT JUST SOME TROPE THAT HIS SPEECH WRITERS GAVE HIM?

>> WELL, IN SOME WAYS I FEEL AS IF THIS MOMENT, THIS PERIOD IN WHICH HE IS ACCEPTING, ACCOMMODATING THE REALITY THAT HIS ELECTORAL FUTURE IS CLOSING, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT HAS RELIEVED SOME OF THE PRESSURE AROUND THIS QUESTION OF WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO SAVE DEMOCRACY?

BECAUSE IT'S NO LONGER CONSUMED BY THE VERY REAL AND CREDIBLE ISSUE OF IS HIS AGE PREVENTING DEMOCRATS FROM STOPPING DONALD TRUMP FROM COMING BACK TO OFFICE.

IT'S NOW A QUESTION OF WHETHER VOTERS WILL CHOOSE TO PUT DONALD TRUMP BACK IN OFFICE OR WHETHER THEY WILL CHOOSE ANOTHER PATH.

IT STRUCK ME AS HE WAS GIVING THAT SPEECH, IT WAS ALMOST A MOMENT OF DELIVERY.

HE'S DELIVERING IN A SENSE THE BATON TO HIS SUCCESSOR, TO KAMALA HARRIS, BUT HE'S ALSO SAYING TO THE VOTERS DELIVERING THE VERY REALITY, THAT IT IS NOW ON OUR SHOULDERS.

IT IS NO LONGER A QUESTION OF WHETHER JOE BIDEN IS GOING TO STEP ASIDE, WHETHER HE'S BLOCKING THE PATH OF NEW TALENT.

THAT MATTER IS CLOSED.

IT REALLY IS NOW A QUESTION OF AS HE SOMETIMES SAYS, WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY DO WE WANT TO BE?

DO WE WANT TO BE DONALD TRUMP'S CUP COUNTRY OR DO WE WANT TO BE ANOTHER THING?

I THINK THAT FEELS RIGHT TO ME AS A MATTER OF DECISION MAKING.

>> WHY DIDN'T HE SPEND MORE TIME EXTOLLING VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

HE DESCRIBED HER AS SHE'S STRONG, SHE'S CAPABLE.

THE WHAT I HEARD IN HIM, WALTER, WAS THE FACT THAT I THINK HE'S STILL CONSUMED A BIT BY THE SHEER DRAMA OF HIS OWN -- OF HIS OWN DECISION TO STEP BACK.

IT IS JUST SO CONSUMING AS A FACT.

I'M NOT SURE THAT HE'S QUITE PREPARED YET TO BE A MUSCULAR VOICE ON THE NATIONAL STAGE ON HER BEHALF.

I'M NOT SURE IF THAT'S ABOUT MISGIVING ABOUT HER CAPACITY.

I'M NOT SURE IT IS.

I DON'T THINK HE WOULD HAVE STEPPED ASIDE AND ENDORSED HER IF HE THOUGHT THAT WAS A PATH TO FAILURE FOR DEMOCRATS, BUT I SPOKE TO SOMEBODY WHO WAS ON THAT VERY FIRST CALL THAT HE MADE WITH SENIOR STAFF IN THE WHITE HOUSE JUST A FEW MINUTES BEFORE IT WENT PUBLIC AND I SAID, WHAT WAS HIS MOOD LIKE?

WHAT WAS HE -- WHAT DID HE DO?

WHAT DID HE SAY?

THIS PERSON TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, HE REALLY JUST READ HIS LETTER WORD FOR WORD.

HE WAS NOT IN A POSITION TO GIVE A PEP RALLY TO BUCK US UP.

IT WAS VERY SOMBER.

I THINK HE IS A MAN REALLY GRAPPLING WITH THAT MOST OF ALL NOW.

>> DID HE HELP GET DELEGATES TO SUPPORT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS?

DID HE RALLY THEM?

AND DID HE EVEN THINK ON THE OTHER HAND MAYBE NOT MAKING AN ENDORSEMENT AND LETTING THE PROCESS BE MORE OPEN?

>> I THINK THE TRUTH IS THAT THE DELEGATES HAVE SURGED AROUND KAMALA HARRIS MOSTLY BECAUSE OF THE EFFORTS ON HER PART AND ON PEOPLE AROUND HER WHO HAVE WANTED HER TO SUCCEED.

IT HAS NOT BEEN LARGELY A JOE BIDEN PROJECT.

BUT THERE HAS BEEN THIS SURGE OF ENTH ENTHUSIASM, ALMOST AS IF THIS PROCESS HAS BEEN UNCORKED, ALL OF THE YEARS OF PENT UP DEMORALIZATION AND FRUSTRATION, PARTICULARLY YOUNG VOTERS, HAS COME TO THE SURFACE.

SO, NO, HE HAS NOT BEEN THE PRIME MOVER BEHIND THIS.

THE THIS HAS REALLY BEEN A REFLECTION OF SOMETHING, A PIECE OF DARK MATTER IN POLL THAKS HASN'T BEEN DESCRIBED.

THEY WANTED TO BE ENTHUSIASTIC AND HAVEN'T HAD AN OPPORTUNITY AND NOW YOU'RE SEEING THAT IN DRAMATIC FASHION.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK HIS LEGACY WILL BE IN POLICY TERMS IN PARTICULAR?

>> I THINK THERE IS AN INDELIBLE CONCRETE LEGACY THAT YOU CANNOT DISPUTE.

THE FACT THAT HE HAS DONE THINGS LIKE PASS LEGISLATION THAT WILL HAVE GENERATIONS OF BENEFIT WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE OR PRESCRIPTION DRUG COSTS OR IN A SENSE ARTICULATING THE ARGUMENT AGAINST AUTHORITARIANISM A THE HOME AND ABROAD.

THOSE ARE REAL THINGS.

THEY WON'T ULTIMATELY MATTER WHAT HAPPENS OVER THE LAST 105 WAYS.

BILL CLINTON SOMETIMES SAYS YOU ONLY GET ONE SENTENCE FOR YOUR PRESIDENCY IN HISTORY.

HAVING A DEMOCRAT PREVENTING DONALD TRUMP FROM COMING BACK.

HE HAS DESCRIBED THE PROJECT OF PROTECTING DEMOCRACY.

WE DON'T KNOW IF HE WAITED SO LONG THAT BECAME IMPOSSIBLE.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHETHER KAMALA HARRIS AND WHO SHE CHOOSES AS A RUNNING MATE ARE CAPABLE OF PICKING UP THE BATON AND SUCCEEDING ON THE PROJECT THAT HE STARTED.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT HOW BIDEN HAD A SOBERING CASE OF MORAL DECENCY FOR REASONABLENESS.

THESE ARE WORDS YOU'VE USED BEFORE.

AND THAT HE MIGHT OFFER US SOME SOLACE, SOME LANGUAGE OF HEALING.

I THOUGHT A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN BIDEN BECAME PRESIDENT THAT MAYBE THE POISON AND THE PARTISAN SHIP WOULD LEACH A BIT OUT OF THE PARTY.

HE'S AN UNTHREATENING, UNINTIMIDATING PERSON.

WHY ISN'T THAT MORE OF HIS LEGACY?

WHY WASN'T HE ABLE TO CALM DOWN SOME OF THESE -- THE DIVISIVENESS IN OUR SOCIETY?

>> IN SOME WAYS HE'S A HARD MAN TO HATE, YOU WOULD THINK.

HE IS A PERSON WHO IS A MODERATE BY NATURE, BY TEMPERAMENT.

AS HE SAID HIMSELF AFTER ABOUT A YEAR IN OFFICE.

HE SAID, I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU.

I WAS SURPRISED.

I WAS WRONG.

I THOUGHT REPUBLICANS ONCE DONALD TRUMP LEFT THE STAGE WOULD COME TO THEIR SENSES, HE SAID.

IN SOME WAYS THE FEVER WOULD BREAK.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IN FACT, HE BECAME A KIND OF UNLIKE LITTLE TARGET OF THIS VERY INTENSE SCORN.

I THINK THERE'S AN INTERESTING WAY IN WHICH HE NEVER RECIPROCATED.

YOU NEVER SAW HIM BECOME AN ASSERTIVE SNEERG, BITTER, TAUNTING POLITICIAN.

THAT'S NOT HIS TONE.

HE WOULD GET SEVERE AND TALK ABOUT THE GREAT THREAT TO DEMOCRACY AND HE HAS A PERSONAL DISLIKE FOR TRUMP, BUT YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM TAKE ON SOME OF THE BODY LANGUAGE OF MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN OR THE LANGUAGE OF MATT GAETZ, GOD KNOWS.

IN THE END, THE FORCES THAT DRIVE OUR POLITICS INTO THIS DESICCATED TOXIC FORM THAT HE IS CONTENDING WITH ARE LARGER THAN ANY ONE PERSON.

THEY'RE LARGER THAN HIM.

IT WAS NEVER A REALITY.

IT WAS NEVER A POSSIBILITY THAT HE COULD SOMEHOW INDIVIDUALLY REPAIR THAT.

I THINK THAT HIS -- IN A WAY HIS FLUENCY IN THE LANGUAGE OF SUFFERING AND HEALING WAS HELPFUL IN A PARTICULAR CASE, WHICH WAS THE PANDEMIC.

THIS WAS A COUNTRY THAT WAS LITERALLY GRIEVING, JUST GRIEVING THE SHEER NUMBER OF LIVES LOST AND THE FACT THAT HE KNEW THAT IN A WAY THAT A LOT OF PRESIDENTS IN THE MODERN AGE DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH FAMILIARITY WITH PERSONAL SUFFERING IS AND WAS USEFUL.

BUT IT WAS BY NO MEANS THE END OF THE STORY.

>> WILL HE OR SHOULD HE SPEAK AT THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION AND OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL?

>> I THINK HE WILL TO SOME DEGREE.

I THINK YOU'LL SEE HIM OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, PARTICULARLY IN PLACES WHERE HE CAN BE POLITICALLY HELPFUL.

LET'S REMEMBER ONE OF THE KEY QUESTIONS HERE IS GOING TO BE WHETHER KAMALA HARRIS CAN MAINTAIN THE CRUCIAL STATES, WHETHER SHE CAN HOLD ONTO THE SO CALLED BLUE WALL OF PENNSYLVANIA, MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN.

HE IS AT HOME IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA.

YOU MAY SEE HIM OUT THERE TRYING TO DO SOME OF THAT WORK.

IT IS AN INESCAPABLE FACT THAT WE ARE SEEING A MAN IN THE FINAL CHAPTERS OF HIS CAREER.

ONE OF THE THEORIES IS HE COULD SERVE AS A NONEXECUTIVE CHAIRMAN.

THERE MIGHT BE A MOMENT OF COALESCENCE OF GRATITUDE TO HIM FOR STEPPING ASIDE, BUT THERE'S NO QUESTION NOW, WALTER.

WE ARE INTO A DIFFERENT PHASE.

POLITICS IS AN UNSENTIMENTAL BUSINESS.

PEOPLE MOVE ON EXTREMELY FAST.

HE IS ALREADY NOW SHIFTING INTO THE REAR-VIEW MIRROR.

AND I'LL TELL YOU ONE PERSON WHO KNOWS THAT IS JOE BIDEN.

IT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY I THINK HE'S HELD ON SO AFTER INDIVIDUALLY FOR SO LONG.

>> EVAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.