>> Bonnie Erbe: COMING UP ON "TO THE CONTRARY", WHY ARE AMERICAN CATHOLIC BISHOPS THREATENING TO DENY COMMUNION TO POLITICIANS WHO ARE PRO-CHOICE?

RELIGION, POLITICS, SEXISM?

THEN DESPITE EFFORTS TO ATTRACT WOMEN TO STEM JOBS, IN SOME SECTORS, THEY CAN'T SEEM TO RETAIN THEM.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY," A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, RELIGION AND ABORTION RIGHTS: THE U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS IS MEETING TO DECIDE WHETHER TO DENY COMMUNION TO PRO-CHOICE CATHOLICS.

THIS IS THE FIRST OF A COUPLE OF STEPS THE BISHOPS ARE EXPECTED TO TAKE TO SHAME CATHOLICS WHO SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS.

ONE OF THOSE CATHOLICS IS PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, WHO IS A DEVOUT CATHOLIC AND ATTENDS CHURCH ON SUNDAYS.

BUT MANY CATHOLICS, INCLUDING JAMIE MANSON, HEAD OF CATHOLICS FOR CHOICE, SAYS THE SECTION WILL LIKELY BACKFIRE.

>> Jamie Manson: THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE MOST RADICAL PATRIARCHY IN THE WORLD AND IS TO THE BECAUSE IT'S AN OLD MALE LEADERSHIP THAT IS COMPLETELY DEVOID OF THE INFLUENCE OF WOMEN, BECAUSE THIS MALE LEADERSHIP IS NOT MARRIED, SO THEY DON'T HAVE WIVES, THEY DON'T HAVE CHILDREN.

IF THEY DO, THEY HAVE THEM IS ILLICITLY, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE DAUGHTERS.

SO THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIVORCED FROM THE LIVED EXPERIENCE OF WOMEN.

SEEK IS VERY RADICAL PATRIARCHY THAT IS DESPERATE TO HANG ONTO POWER.

AND IF THEY MAKE ANY CHANGES, ANY ALTERATIONS IN THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF GENDER OR SEXUALITY, IT MEANS THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO START LETTING GO OF POWER, PARTICULARLY TO WOMEN.

AND IT SEEMS LIKE THAT IS A HEALTHY WILL DIE ON EVEN IF IT MEANS DESTROYING THEIR OWN CHURCH, UNFORTUNATELY, AND BREAKING THE HEARTS OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND JAMIE MANSON SAYS THE CHURCH'S DECISION TO ELIMINATE COMMUNION FOR PRO-CHOICE CATHOLICS WHEN IT DOES COME WILL CAUSE MORE CATHOLICS TO LEAVE THE FAITH.

>> Jamie Manson: I THINK THE IMPACT IT WILL HAVE, BONNIE, IS THAT IT WILL CONTINUE TO DETERIORATE THE ALREADY DETERIORATING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CHURCH LEADERS AND THE LAITY.

THE CHURCH WAS STRUCK VERY, VERY HARD AND IT'S MORE REAL CREDIBILITY 20 YEARS AGO AND THE SEX ABUSE CRISIS BROKE OUT.

THE REALITY IS WITH THIS ISSUE IN PARTICULAR OF DENYING IT COMMUNION ACROSS PARTY LINES.

CATHOLICS DO NOT AGREE WITH IT.

THEY SEE IT IS PUNITIVE, THE SEAT IS OVERREACH.

AND SO, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A TOUGH SELL, EVEN TO SOME CONSERVATIVE CATHOLICS.

SO I THINK IT WILL ONLY DO MORE HARM AND CERTAINLY NOT ANY GOOD.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND JOINING US NOW TO DISCUSS THIS TOPIC OUR D.C.

DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST HILARY ROSEN, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT ANNE STONE, AND REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST RINA SHAH AURORA.

SURPRISED TO YOU, CONGRESSWOMAN NORTON, IS THIS -- DO YOU AGREE WITH JAMIE MANSON THAT THIS IS GOING TO PUSH MORE CATHOLICS AWAY FROM THE FAITH?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: APPARENTLY SO.

WE ALREADY HAVE MORE CATHOLICS NOT ONLY GOING TO CHURCH, BUT DISAGREEING WITH THIS DECISION ABOUT ABORTION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND, HILARY ROSEN, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN AS A RESULT?

>> Hilary Rosen: I THINK THAT THIS IS HAPPENING BECAUSE JOE BIDEN HAS BECOME AN EXTREMELY VISIBLE CATHOLIC.

SO I LOOK --, LOOK, I AM NOT CATHOLIC, BUT I THINK THAT HAVING PRESIDENT BIDEN GO TO MASS EVERY SUNDAY SHOULD BE THE DREAM OF EVERY CATHOLIC BISHOP.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVEN'T HAD A CATHOLIC PRESIDENT SINCE THE '60s.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SINCE KENNEDY.

>> Hilary Rosen: HE CARRIES A ROSARY EVERY DAY.

HE SUPPORTS THE CHURCH THAT HAS HAD LIKE A SCANDALOUS INSENSITIVITY FOR YEARS.ND HE IS, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY AS A HUMAN, EVERYTHING THAT THEY ASKED FOR.

YOU KNOW, JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED.

>> Bonnie Erbe: RINAH, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Rina Shah: WELL, I'M NOT CATHOLIC, BUT THEY WENT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOL FROM K-6 ON VERY FAMILIAR WITH THIS RELIGION AND I AGREE WITH HILLARY COMPLETELY.

THEY SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT'S EMBRACED AND SEEN A GOOD THING THAT WE HAVE OUR SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TAUGHT BY THE WHITE HOUSE AS A CATHOLIC.

AND SO, REALLY ENCOURAGED BY BIDEN'S REMARKS, ESPECIALLY THOSE OF HIS IN 2015 WHERE HE SAID WHAT I'M NOT PREPARED TO DO IS IMPOSE A PRECISE VIEW THAT IS BORN OUT OF MY FACE ON OTHER PEOPLE.

AND THAT TO ME IS REALLY STRONG.

SO WHATEVER THE RESULT OF THE U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS, WHATEVER IS DECIDED OUT OF THAT, THE DECISION ON WHETHER AN INDIVIDUAL PERSON OR, EVEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, SHOULD BE DENIED COMMUNION REALLY LIES WITH THE LOCAL BISHOP.

AND SO I BELIEVE IT WAS HIS, BISHOP IN DELAWARE, WILMINGTON, DELAWARE, AND WASHINGTON AS WELL, THEY BOTH OF SAID THAT BIDEN WAS WELCOME TO RECEIVE COMMUNION AT CHURCH AND THAT IS WHAT I THINK THE FINAL DECISION SHOULD BE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOUR THOUGHTS, ANN.

>> Ann Stone: WELL, I HAVE KNOWN THE PREVIOUS LEADERS OF CATHOLICS FOR CHOICE, FRANCIS KEESLING WAS A DEAR FRIEND AND JOHN O'BRIEN, I HAVE NOT MET JAMIE YET.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT SHE IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

IT'S WAY OFF BASE IN TERMS OF AMERICAN CATHOLICS , ABOUT 60 PERCENT ARE PRO-CHOICE.

BUT BEYOND THAT, SHE CAN GO BACK AND REMIND THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HISTORY ON ABORTION, AND THAT IS THEY WERE -- THEY ALLOWED ABORTION UP TO THE POINT OF QUICKENING UNTIL ALMOST THE 20TH CENTURY.

SO, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IS IT POLITICS?

IS IT SCRIPTURE?

THE CHURCH HAS CHANGED BEFORE ON IT, AND NOW IT'S IN A LITTLE BIT MORE POLITICAL THAN THE SCRIPTURE.

BUT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK IT OUT AND IT'S GOING TO BE VERY INTERESTING.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT THEY HAVE THREATENED TO EXCOMMUNICATE OR DISALLOWED COMMUNION OF POLITICIANS IN AMERICA.

SO WE'LL SEE HOW IT TURNS OUT THIS TIME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DO WE AGREE?

AND ANYBODY JUMP IN.. WE AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH JAMIE THAT THIS IS THE ULTIMATE PATRIARCHY, THAT THESE ARE MAINLY WHITE MEN, VERY FEW BISHOPS OF COLOR, THAT THESE ARE GUYS WHO NEVER MARRY, SUPPOSEDLY NEVER HAVE SEX, OR AT LEAST NOT ONCE THEY BECOME PRIESTS AND THEN BISHOPS AND DON'T HAVE DAUGHTERS, WIVES, CHILDREN AND CANNOT REALLY RELATE TO WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A WOMAN IN AMERICA TODAY?

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU, OR IS THAT SEXIST?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE A WOMAN IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THIS ISSUE.

'S YES, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE ULTIMATE PATRIARCHY.

THAT'S THE WAY THEY WANT IT.

BUT THEY MUST RESPOND TO MEN AND WOMEN.

AND THIS DECISION, THAT AT LEAST CONSERVATIVE CATHOLICS OR CONSERVATIVE BISHOPS ARE RESPONDING TO IS NOT EVEN HANDED.

BUT REMEMBER, NO, NO THING, NO INSTITUTION IS MORE POLITICAL THAN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

AND THE PAPC WITH A LEAKED LETTER HAS INDICATED THAT THAT THIS DECISION SHOULD BE PUT OFF .

THAT TOO A POLITICAL DECISION AND IT'S PROBABLY THE RIGHT DECISION RATHER THAN TO SPLIT THE AMERICANS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THERE ARE 280 AMERICAN BISHOPS, 60 OF THEM HAVE ASKED THEIR BRETHREN, LIKE THE POPE, TO PLEASE PUT THIS OFF, NOT DEAL WITH IT NOW.

OF COURSE, WHAT MOTIVATES THEM IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A CATHOLIC PRESIDENT.

DOES THE POPE OR -- HAVE A CHANCE TO STEP IN OR WHAT?

AND IT'S EXPECTED THAT THEY WILL FIND -- GIVE THIS FINAL APPROVAL IN NOVEMBER.

WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT, PRESIDENT BIDEN GOES TO MASS WITHOUT TAKING COMMUNION?

>> Ann Stone: YEAH, THAT'S WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

BUT TO SAY THE CHURCH IS THE ULTIMATE PATRIARCHY, YES.

BUT LET'S LOOK AROUND.

THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY ORGANIZED RELIGION THAT IS, YOU KNOW, THIS WAY TOWARDS WOMEN AND AT LEAST THE CATHOLICS ARE ALLOWED TO DRIVE.

SO I MEAN, THE POINT IS IT A PROBLEM, AND IT'S SOMETHING WE'VE GOT TO COME INTO THE 21ST CENTURY DEAL WITH AND LOOK AT MOST OTHER MAINSTREAM WESTERN RELIGIONS WHO HAVE GOTTEN OVER THIS LONG TIME AGO.

>> Hilary Rosen: I THINK THE OTHER PROBLEM HERE IS HOW ARBITRARY THIS DECISION FEELS, AND THAT IS STATISTICALLY RELEVANT.

BECAUSE AS WE KNOW, THAT MEN WITH DAUGHTERS ARE ACTUALLY MORE PRO-CHOICE THAN MEN WITHOUT DAUGHTERS.

THAT'S JUST A FACT OF DATA.

BUT I THINK THAT THE SENSE THAT THE CHURCH IS MAKING THESE DECISIONS AROUND ABORTION BUT NOT, FOR INSTANCE, OTHER TEACHINGS OF CHRIST LIKE POVERTY AND TAKING CARE OF THE EARTH AND OTHER ISSUES THAT COME UP THAT ARE IMPORTANT TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND IMPORTANT TENANTS, TO SIMPLY TAKE THIS ONE INSTANCE AND MAKE THAT BE THE CONDITION UNDER WHICH YOU CAN HAVE YOUR PRIVATE CONVERSATION WITH GOD DURING COMMUNION SEEMS ARBITRARY AND ACTUALLY ANTI-WOMAN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND LET ME THROW THIS OUT THERE TOO: I MEAN, THE CHURCH HAS BEEN LOSING, OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES, IT'S LOST ABOUT 20 PERCENT OF ITS AMERICAN FOLLOWERS.

NOW GLOBALLY, THE CHURCH IS SHRINKING IN THE WEST, THE CHURCHES ARE EMPTY IN EUROPE.

IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GOING TO LOSE MORE WOMEN IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH WITH THIS DECISION?

>> Rina Shah: I'M NOT ENTIRELY SURE ABOUT THAT, BONNIE, BECAUSE OF OUR RATES HERE OF EDUCATION.

INDEED, IT'S TRUE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU GET WOMEN IN QUESTIONING WHAT'S HAPPENING.

IN MY FAITH, FOR EXAMPLE, I COME FROM A HYBRID OF THE HINDU JEAN FAMILY AND I REMEMBER YEARS AGO THINKING, GOING TO THE TEMPLE AND NOT BEING ALLOWED TO GO DURING THE TIME OF MONTH DURING WHICH I WAS MENSTRUATING.

IT MADE COMPLETE -- IT WAS SO WRONG TO ME, AND I THINK HE'S HARD AND FAST RULES AND RELIGION -- AND I AGREE WITH THE BISHOP OF SAN DIEGO, FOR EXAMPLE.

I READ THAT HE CAME OUT SAYING SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY STRONG TO ME.

HE SAID THE EUCHARIST IS BEING WEAPON ICED AND DEPLOYED A TOOL IN POLITICAL WARFARE.

AND THAT IS -- THAT JUST CANNOT HAPPEN, BECAUSE THE MINUTE YOU START WITH THAT, ANYTHING ELSE CAN HAPPEN IN RELIGION.

THEN YOU GET WOMEN, AND FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY FROM IT WHEN THEY DON'T SEE THEIR ROLE, THEY DON'T SEE A PLACE AND HE SEE OTHERS INVITING HAPPENING.

WE DON'T WANT THAT.

WE WANT PLACES WHERE WE ARE WELCOME AND WE SEE REFLECTIONS OF US.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND OF COURSE, THIS IS THE CHURCH THAT STARTED LOSING PARISHIONERS 20 YEARS AGO BECAUSE OF THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS SEX SCANDAL.

BUT TO ME, IT LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE STILL OPERATING AS IF THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TECHNOLOGY, NO SUCH THING AS CAMERAS AND CELL PHONES.

THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

HOWEVER, THEY ARE EXPERT AT TECHNOLOGY.

THEY ARE ALREADY TWEETING HOW THIS IS GOING TO BECOME THE LAW OF THE CHURCH, THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH, AND HOW AMERICANS SHOULD SIDE WITH THEM ON THIS ISSUE.O ANNE, YOUR THOUGHTS, IS TECHNOLOGY AN ENEMY OR A FRIEND OF THE MEN IN THE CHURCH TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, MAKE EVERYBODY BE ANTIABORTION?

>> Ann Stone: WELL, IT'S BEEN BOTH.

BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THE TECHNOLOGY NOT ONLY IN ELECTRONIC TECHNOLOGY, TECHNOLOGY THAT ALLOWS US TO NEW YORK MORE ABOUT PREGNANCY.

THEY ALWAYS PREDICTED WOULD MAKE MORE PEOPLE IN THE CHOICE AND PRO-CHOICE.

AND WHAT'S INTERESTING IS EVEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NOW IS HAVING TO REEVALUATE WHEN LIFE BEGINS, BECAUSE IT WAS POINTED OUT TO THEM THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION, IT DOES NOT KNOW WHAT SEX IT IS AND IT DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW MANY WILL COME FROM THAT EGG AT CONCEPTION.

SOME UNLESS THEY THINK TWINS AND TRIPLETS AND QUINTUPLETS SHERRY SOUL, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD TO RETHINK THAT.

AND I UNDERSTAND FROM MY SOURCES THAT WORK WITH THE VATICAN, THEY ARE REEVALUATING THAT.

WHETHER OR NOT THE REST OF THE WORLD WILL EVER HEAR WHAT THEY DECIDED, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT TECHNOLOGY IS CUT BOTH WAYS FOR THEM.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, IN THE HOUSE, WE ARE ALREADY HAVING OME-- WE ALREADY HAVING BILLS FROM REPUBLICANS WHICH WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NO ABORTION BEFORE SIX WEEKS.

TO THAT, OF COURSE, IS SO EARLY WHEN YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IF YOU ARE PREGNANT.

>> Ann Stone: THAT WILL BE A NONSTARTER.

WILL BE UP TO WHERE THAT IS THE MISSISSIPPI BILL WHICH THE COURT IS CONSIDERING RIGHT NOW, IS THAT AT 15 WEEKS.

UNFORTUNATELY, THERE ARE POLLS THAT SHOW THERE'S A LOT OF PUBLIC SUPPORT TO PHYSICALLY DOING AWAY WITH ABORTION AFTER 15 WEEKS, BECAUSE I FEEL THAT'S ENOUGH TIME, WHICH YOU AND I BOTH KNOW IS NOT THE CASE.

SO THAT A CASE OF IT COULD BLOW ALL TEXT WIDE OPEN AT THE END OF THIS YEAR THEY DECIDED BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

COULD HAVE THE SAME KIND OF SEISMIC SHIFT FOR THE PARTY THAT THE WEBSTER DECISION IN 1989 DID.

SO REPUBLICANS NEED TO BE CAREFUL OF GETTING WHAT THEY WISH FOR.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

ND THAT DECISION IS EXPECTED SOMETIME IN NOVEMBER, UNLESS OF COURSE THEY PULLED BACK, LISTEN TO THE POPE AND DEFER IT TO DOWN THE ROAD.

>>> BEHIND THE HEADLINES: STEM, STEM FIELDS: SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND MATH.

WOMEN HAVE MADE GREAT STRIDES, BUT MEN STILL DOMINATE.

AND LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHY AND HOW TO CHANGE THAT.

WOMEN COMPRISE NEARLY HALF OF THE U.S.

WORKFORCE, BUT ONLY 28 PERCENT OF WORKERS IN SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND MATH OR STEM FIELDS.

THAT PERCENTAGE VARIES BY PROFESSION.

WITH WOMEN FARING BETTER IN SOCIAL AND BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES, LESS WELL IN COMPUTER SCIENCE, AND EVEN WORSE IN ARCHITECTURE AND ENGINEERING.

AND FOR WOMEN OF COLOR, THE NUMBERS ARE EVEN MORE DISMAL.

THERE ARE PROGRAMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY FORMED TO INCREASE WOMEN'S PARTICIPATION IN STEM JOBS AND TO ATTRACT MORE GIRLS AND WOMEN INTO STEM FIELDS, PARTICULARLY AS TEACHERS AND PROFESSORS IN ACADEMIA.

>> Shauna Morimoto: WE ARE LOOKING PRIMARILY AT WOMEN FACULTY, AND IN STEM FIELDS AS THEY ENTER STEM FIELDS, AND GRADUATE AND ACHIEVE A PHD OR A HIGHER DEGREE.

THEY TEND TO DROP OUT OF THE WORKFORCE OR DROPOUT OF THE ACADEMIC WORKFORCE IN PARTICULAR.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SHAUNA MORIMOTO IS AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AND DEPARTMENT CHAIR AT A TOP RESEARCH INSTITUTION, THE UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS AT FAYETTEVILLE.

THE NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION AWARDED THE SCHOOL A $1 MILLION GRANT TO RESEARCH AND PUTTING TO PRACTICE BETTER RECRUITMENT AND RETAINING OF WOMEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR FACULTY IN THE STEM FIELDS.

>> Shauna Morimoto: ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE VERY INTERESTED IN IS HOW WOMEN CAN BECOME -- TAKE ON MORE LEADERSHIP ROLES AND BECOME LEADERS IN THEIR FIELDS, BECAUSE THAT PROVIDES AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO GIVE MENTORSHIP TO YOUNGER STUDENTS, FOR STUDENTS TO SEE WOMEN IN THESE ROLES AND THINK OF IT AS NATURAL.

>> Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson: WE HAVE TRIED TO FOCUS ON TRYING TO GET TEACHERS WHO ARE LEARNING A SKILL AND WHAT IT TAKES TO ENCOURAGE OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO BEGIN TO LOOK AT THE STEM FIELDS REPRESENTATIVE EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON OF TEXAS CHAIRS THE CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY.

>> Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson: WE HAVE HAD SO FEW WOMEN GOING INTO ENGINEERING, AND WOMEN OF COLOR HAVE BEEN THE SMALLEST PERCENTAGE GOING INTO ENGINEERING.

AND YET WE FIND THAT THEY ARE SKILLS UNIQUE TO WOMEN THAT ARE NEEDED, THAT CAN BE OF VALUE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: GOVERNMENT EFFORTS TO REACH THESE GOALS INCLUDE MORE FUNDING FOR HBCUS AND MINORITY SERVING INSTITUTIONS, INCLUDING HISPANIC AND TRIBAL INSTITUTIONS, AND SUPPORTING EARLY STEM EDUCATION AND RESEARCH.

THERE IS ALSO A NEED FOR TEACHER REPARATION AND ADDRESSING SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN THE FIELD.

THIS CONTINUES TO BE A CHALLENGE.

>> Shauna Morimoto: IN A LOT OF THESE TECH STARTUPS AND INDUSTRIES, THEY SORT OF HAVE A LOT OF MASCULINE KIND OF CULTURE.

BUT IT BECOMES EMBEDDED IN THE CULTURE OF THE PROFESSION, AND THE WOMEN MIGHT NOT FEEL THAT THEY HAVE A PLACE THERE WERE PEOPLE OF COLOR MIGHT FEEL LIKE THAT, THAT'S NOT A SITUATION THAT FEELS NATURAL TO THEM.

>> Bonnie Erbe: RINA SHAH BRA ROLL, WHY IS IT 20 YEARS AGO, IT WOMEN WERE NOT EVEN GETTING INTO GRADUATE SCHOOL IN STEM FIELDS?

NOW THEY ARE GETTING IN, BUT THEY DROPOUT EITHER IN COLLEGE OR GRAD SCHOOL OR ONCE THEY GET INTO THE FIELD.

LIVE, >> Rina Shah: WELL, THERE'S CERTAINLY NOT ENOUGH SUPPORT, BONNIE.

HAVING GONE THROUGH IT MYSELF AND KNOCK ON TO A CAREER IN STEM, I CAN TELL YOU AND FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE, AND IT WAS IN THE EARLY 2000'S, IS THAT THERE WAS A BROAD CULTURE AND THAT CONTINUED.

AND IT NEVER SUPPORTED ME IN A WAY THAT I FELT LIKE I COULD SUCCEED.

WHEN I MET TERRIBLE GRADES.

I FELT LIKE NOBODY COULD UNDERSTAND.

AND WITH THE LACK OF ROLE MODELS AT THAT TIME, IN PARTICULAR, AND LACK OF PUBLIC PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS WHERE I COULD SEEK SOME ADDITIONAL HELP OUTSIDE OF MY ACADEMIC STRUCTURE, I THINK THESE THINGS HAVE IMPROVED.

FOR ME AT THAT TIME, IT WAS FAR DIFFERENT.

BUT RIGHT NOW, WE KNOW, ESPECIALLY POST PANDEMIC, AS WE REOPEN, WE SEE WITH THE REALITY IS FOR YOUNGER GIRLS WHO ARE -- THAT ARE IN HIGH SCHOOL OR EARLY COLLEGE, WHAT IS THEIR REALITY GOING TO BE IN THE POST PANDEMIC WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO THE STEM FIELD?

SO TO ME, THERE ARE TWO ANSWERS: IT HAS TO COME FROM FEDERAL AND STATE, AND THEN THERE HAS TO BE PUBLIC PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS THAT RECOGNIZE THE UNIQUE NEEDS OF GIRLS IN RURAL AREAS AS WELL AS IN URBAN AREAS.

>> Ann Stone: IT GOES BACK TO IF YOU CAN SEE IT, YOU CAN BE IT.

AND WE STILL OF A PROBLEM IN OUR COUNTRY WHERE GIRLS REALLY DON'T KNOW FROM AN EARLY AGE KIND OF WOMEN THAT HAVE COME BEFORE THEM.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PUBLICITY NOW ABOUT THE HIDDEN FIGURES WOMEN, WHICH AS YOU KNOW, A COFOUNDER OF THE WOMEN'S HISTORY MUSEUM AND WE HONORED CATHERINE JOHNSON WELL BEFORE THAT MOVIE WHERE THE BOOK WAS EVEN WRITTEN.

YOU KNOW, WE ARE A LONE VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS, HENNIE LAMARR, YES.

BUT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT ROSLYN FRANKLIN, THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT LEE'S NIGHTMARE, DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT, YOU KNOW, EVEN HYPATIA OF ALEXANDRIA BACK IN ANCIENT TIMES AND THE TREMENDOUS STRIDES WOMEN HAVE MADE SYMPTOMS IN PARTNERSHIP WITH MEN BUT VERY OFTEN ON THEIR OWN IN SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, MATHEMATICS, ETC.

RIGHT.O A CULTURE, WE STILL DID NOT SUPPORT OR ENCOURAGE GIRLS TO DEVELOP THE SKILLS.

THE IRONY IS MY SATS, I WAS WAY -- I WAS A MOST PERFECT AND MATH.

I ALWAYS EXCELLED IN MATH AND SCIENCE.

NEW GUIDANCE COUNSELOR, NO ONE EVER ENCOURAGED ME TO GO INTO THAT FIELD.

MARILYN VOS SAVANT, GOOD FRIEND OF MINE, PERSON WITH THE HIGHEST IQ EVER RECORDED TO 40, AT AGE 10.

SHE SAID, IF SHE HAD KNOWN HER WOMEN'S HISTORY, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE ILLUMINATED HER WITH SOME OF THE HISTORY SHE'D NEVER BEEN TAUGHT, SHE SAID, MY GOD, SHE SAID, EVEN WHEN THEY KNEW I HAD THIS IQ, GUIDANCE COUNSELORS TOLD ME I SHOULD BE A SECRETARY, A NURSE, OR MAYBE A TEACHER.

YOU KNOW, WE COULD HAVE HAD A CURE FOR CANCER, PERHAPS IF SHE'D BEEN ENCOURAGED IN MEDICAL RESEARCH, YOU KNOW, DECADES AGO, AND NOW SHE IS IN MEDICAL RESEARCH, BUT IT'S, YOU KNOW, FOUR OR FIVE DECADES AFTER SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN >> Bonnie Erbe: HILARY, YOUR THOUGHTS.

I KNOW YOU HAVE WORKED FOR, YOU KNOW, SUPPORTING WOMEN'S ADVANCEMENT MAYBE IN DIFFERENT FIELDS, CERTAINLY.

BUT WHAT YOU THINK WOMEN NEED TO SUCCEED IN STEM?

>> Hilary Rosen: WELL, REALLY LIKE WHAT ANN SAID BECAUSE I THINK IF YOU DON'T SEE IT, YOU CAN'T BE IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY TALK TO MY DAUGHTER ABOUT THIS.

SUBJECT WHOSE 22 AND JUST GRADUATED WITH AN UNDERGRAD DEGREE IN SCIENCE, SHE'S PRE MED.

AND I SAID, WHY WERE SO MANY, YOU KNOW, WHY ARE THERE SO FEW WOMEN IN YOUR CLASSES, AND, YOU KNOW, SHE SAID, WELL, ALMOST ALL OF HER PROFESSORS WERE MEN.

AND, YOU KNOW, EVEN THE SORT OF THE SIMPLE TASK OF UNIVERSITIES AND IN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES LOOKING FOR ADDITIONAL WOMEN, STUDENTS NEED TO LOOK AT THEIR OWN FACULTIES NEED TO SEE WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING FORTH, SO THAT, YOU KNOW, YOUNG WOMEN ARE COMFORTABLE IN A CLASS SPEAKING UP, OR IF THEY NEED EXTRA HELP, OR IF THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, FEELING SMARTER THAN THE GUYS AND AND INTIMIDATED BY THAT.

SO I THINK THAT THERE'S THIS CONSTANT NEED FOR FOR PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE BETTER ROLE MODELS, LIKE WE CAN'T BLAME THESE YOUNG WOMEN FOR NOT WANTING TO GO INTO THESE FIELDS, WE CAN'T BLAME YOUNG MOMS WHO ARE CHOOSING BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, DAYCARE AND SCHOOL, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS, IS PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY ON ON THE PEOPLE IN THE POSITIONS OF POWER TO CREATE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: WHAT SHOULD ALARM US MOST IS THAT WOMEN GOING AND GETTING STEM BACHELOR'S DEGREES HAS BEEN GOING DOWN.

NOW, WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT THESE FIELDS USUALLY REQUIRE SOMEWHAT MORE THAN THAT, THAT'S WHERE WE SHOULD START.

SOMETHING IS HAPPENING.

FAR BELOW THE LEVEL THAT WE'VE BEEN LOOKING.

LOOK, STEM IS NO DIFFERENT FROM MOST FIELDS.

MOST FIELDS WHICH PAY WILL CONTINUE TO BE MEN DOMINATED FIELDS.

I DON'T KNOW WHY WE WOULD EXPECT STEM TO BE IN A DIFFERENT, UNLESS WE MADE A MUCH GREATER EFFORT BEGINNING I THINK AT THE HIGH SCHOOL AND ELEMENTARY LEVEL, BECAUSE WE ARE SEEING AT THE BACHELOR'S LEVEL SOMETHING IS ALREADY HAPPENING THAT MAKES WOMEN BELIEVE THEY SHOULD DO SOMETHING ELSE AT A TIME WHEN SCIENCE SHOULD BE, SHOULD BE INTERESTING THEM MORE THAN ANY OTHER TIME IN OUR HISTORY.

>> Ann Stone: I WAS GOING TO SAY WHEN QUICK ANECDOTE TO DOVETAIL WHAT ELEANOR JUST SAID: IN THE AREA OF SOFTWARE AND IN PROGRAMMING, IT WAS A FEMALE DOMINATED FIELD WHEN IT FIRST STARTED BECAUSE IT WAS CONSIDERED TEDIOUS AND SECRETARIAL UNTIL THE MEN FOUND OUT THEY COULD MAKE MONEY AT IT.

AND THEN HE BLEW THE WOMEN OUT AND AM MEN ARE ALL BUSY VERY HEAVILY INTO THAT FIELD.

BUT IT'S EXACTLY THAT.

AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT WOULD NOT PAY OFF, SO THEY LET THE WOMEN DO IT.

WHEN IT DID, THE MEN JUMPED IN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: QUICKLY,, AND ANYBODY JUMP IN WITH THE ANSWER, BUT WHY IS IT THAT BIOLOGY, I.E., YOU KNOW, MEDICAL FIELDS IN SORT OF THE SOFTER SCIENCES, WOMEN DO DO BETTER IN THAT.

IN FACT, EVERY COUPLE YEARS AGO THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL WERE WOMEN.

NOW IT'S GOING TO TAKE MANY YEARS OF GRADUATES TO MAKE THEM EQUAL NUMBERS IN THE FIELD BUT STILL, WHY IS IT THAT COMPUTERS AND ENGINEERING ARE MUCH HARDER FOR WOMEN TO BREAK INTO THAN MEDICINE AND BIOLOGY?

>> Rina Shah: I THINK IT'S A RELATIONSHIP WITH NUMBERS.

WITH YOUNG BOYS AND NUMBERS.

THEY ARE GEARED AND CULTURE TOWARDS WORKING WITH MORE TACTICAL SKILLS LIKE THAT, THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE SHAPE, THERE RIGHT TOYS IN MY KIDS, MAGNA TILES.

AND THEY'RE THESE MAGNETIC TILES WHICH THEY BUILD LITTLE HOUSES AND BRIDGES AND, BUT THAT KIND OF STUFF IS NOT GEARED TOWARDS MY DAUGHTER IT TRADITIONALLY YOU SEE LITTLE BOYS MAKING BRIDGES AND USING TRUCKS, I FIND THAT FOR MY LITTLE GIRLS.

AND SO I THINK A LITTLE PART OF IT IS THAT WHAT'S AT HOME TO THE GIRLS ARE THOUGHT TO BE MORE NURTURERS TO BE IN FIELDS THAT ARE SERVICE ORIENTED VERSUS HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH NUMBERS.

AND I THINK IF WE INSTILL, YOU KNOW, IT TAKES A VILLAGE.

SO IT'S NOT JUST SOMETHING HAPPENING AT HOME.

IT'S OUR CARETAKERS, OUTSIDE OUR HOMES AS WELL, TEACHERS AND OTHERS, SHOWING YOUNG GIRLS THAT THEY CAN HAVE POSITIVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH NUMBERS AS WELL AND GET INTERESTED IN ANYTHING RELATED TO GEOMETRY AS WELL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW US ON FACEBOOK, TWITTER, AND INSTAGRAM, AND VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE, WWW.TO THE CONTRARY.ORG.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.

UNDER