>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", PRESIDENT BIDEN'S AMERICAN FAMILIES PLAN AND ITS PRICE.

THEN, THE NUMBER OF WOMEN WHO SAY THEIR RELIGIOUSLY UNAFFILIATED IS RISING.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, THE AMERICAN FAMILY PLAN.

PART TWO OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S AGENDA TO BUILD BACK BETTER WILL BE UNVEILED IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS.

DETAILS ARE NOT FINALIZED, BUT THE WASHINGTON POST REPORTS THE FOCUS IS ON CHILDCARE, PAID FAMILY LEAVE, AND OTHER DOMESTIC PRIORITIES.

AND IT COULD COST $1 TRILLION.

IT INCLUDES SOME $225 BILLION FOR CHILDCARE, 225 BILLION FOR PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE, 200 MILLION FOR UNIVERSAL PRE-K, BILLIONS OF EDUCATION FUNDING INCLUDING TUITION FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGES, CARING FOR THE ELDERLY, AND NUTRITIONAL ASSISTANCE.

NEW TAX INCREASES ON UPPER INCOME AMERICANS AND WEALTHY INVESTORS ARE EXPECTED TO PAY FOR THE PLAN.

PART ONE WAS BIDEN'S INFRASTRUCTURE AND JOBS PLAN WHICH WOULD BE FUNDED BY MORE THAN $2 TRILLION IN TAX INCREASES OF CORPORATIONS.

WITH US TODAY OR DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AISHA MILLS; CARRIE LUKAS, PRESIDENT OF THE INDEPENDENT WIND WOMEN'S FIRM; AARON MAXWELL, COFOUNDER OF REPROACTION SUMMARY: WASHINGTON EXAMINER COLUMNIST TIANA LOWE.

CARRIE LUKAS, DO YOU THINK AMERICA IS GOING TO BE ALL IN ON THE AMERICAN FAMILY PLAN OR NOT?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

THIS IS A SWEEPING AND AMAZING BILL IN THAT IT TOUCHES ON JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND IT'S ALL NICE TO SAY THAT CHILDCARE AND FAMILY LEAVE ARE A PART OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

IT CERTAINLY IS, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOVERNMENT IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD FUND ALL OF THIS OR BE IN CHARGE OF ALL OF THIS.

I FIND IT KIND OF IRONIC, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE IDEA OF CREATING GOVERNMENT-FUNDED PRE-K, BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF AMERICANS OUT THERE WHO SAY, KENNE JUST GET MY PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO OPEN AND ACTUALLY SERVE MY KIDS?

THE LAST THING IN THE WORLD THAT I WOULD WANT IS TO HAVE TO BE DEPENDING ON GOVERNMENT RUN SCHOOLS FOR PRE-K.

I HAVE FIVE CHILDREN, THEY JUST NOW FINALLY TIPTOED BACK TO SCHOOL AFTER A YEAR OF BEING FORCED TO STAY HOME DUE TO COVID.

>> Bonnie: WAIT A SECOND, WAIT A SECONDHAT YOU SAY YOU WOULD NOT WANT TO BE DEPENDENT ON GOVERNMENT FOR PRE-K?

I MEAN, THE GOVERNMENT, THE SCHOOLS ARE OPENING.

GOVERNMENT DOES ITS JOB EVERY TIME THEY HAVE OUTSOURCED THINGS TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

IT GETS WAY MORE EXPENSIVE IN LEGAL AID -- >> IF YOU TALK TO PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENTS SINCE SEPTEMBER, I KNOW HERE 11 VIRGINIA AND THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN OPEN AND SERVING CHILDREN AND FAMILIES IN PERSON SINCE THE START OF SEPTEMBER, AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE REFUSED TO OPEN THEIR DOORS LITERALLY TO STUDENTS UNTIL THIS MONTH.

IT'S BEEN A TOTAL DISASTER FOR FAMILIES WHO CANNOT AFFORD TO OPT OUT OF THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

>> LET'S LET SOMEONE ELSE GET IN THERE.

AISHA, YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE PLAN?

>> YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT WE ARE REALLY THINKING ABOUT AMERICAN INFRASTRUCTURE AS IT RELATES TO THE PEOPLE IS AND OF ITSELF WHERE WE NEED TO BE.

I'M EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

INFRASTRUCTURE IS NOT JUST SIMPLY BRIDGES AND ROADS, WHICH, BY THE WAY, THE REPUBLICANS HAVE DEFUNDED ANY TYPE OF REPAIR TO THOSE EITHER WHICH IS WHY BRIDGES ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY ARE FALLING APART.

ST. PAUL PROBABLY BEING ONE OF THE MAIN ONES IN RECENT YEARS THAT LITERALLY FELL INTO THE WATER.

BUT THIS IDEA OF THIS PLAN IS THAT IN ORDER TO BE A STRONG NATION INTO GET OURSELVES BACK GLOBALLY COMPETITIVE WHERE WE USED TO BE, WE ACTUALLY NEED TO THINK OF OUR HUMAN CATAPULT IS OUR GREATEST RESOURCE AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THIS NATION IS ABOUT SUPPORTING OUR PEOPLE WHO ARE OUR WORKFORCE, WHO ARE OUR CREATORS, WHO BUILD THINGS, TO IMAGINE, AND WHO ARE PRODUCTIVE AND PRODUCE AND EXPORT OF RESOURCES TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AND LEAD THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

SO LET'S INVEST IN ALL THAT.

AND THE IDEA THAT ONLY SOME RICH PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD PRIVATE SCHOOL ARE THE ONES WHO DESERVE TO HAVE PRE-K IS JUST ELITIST, RIGHT, AND MOST AMERICANS DON'T BELIEVE THAT FOOLISHNESS.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

BUT HOW IS THIS GOING TO AFFECT DEMOCRATIC CHANCES TO KEEP THE SENATE AND ENLARGE THE MAJORITY IN THE MIDTERMS IN 2022?

BECAUSE I REMEMBER YEARS AGO DURING THE DUKAKIS CAMPAIGN THAT A FRIEND OF MINE SAID I'M ALL FOR TAXING THE RICH, BUT THE DEMOCRATS THINK I'M RICH.

SHE WAS MAKING $75,000 A YEAR IN NEW YORK CITY.

NOW, THAT WAS A BUNCH OF YEARS AGO, BUT YOU CANNOT LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY ON 75 GRAND AT THAT TIME.

YOU KNOW, YOU CANNOT EVEN GET A STUDIO APARTMENT FOR UNDER $1500 A MONTH.

SO -- >> THANK YOU, BONNIE FOR THAT.

>> Bonnie: WHO'S GOT THE IDEA OF RICH AND WHO IS NOT RICH?

>> THANK YOU FOR RAISING THAT.

BOTH THE QUESTIONS, THE FIRST YOU ASK, ABOUT THE POLITICS OF IT.

WHY ON EARTH WE ARE POLITICIZING GROWTH AND PRODUCTIVITY AND SUPPORTING PEOPLE IS A PROBLEM.

TO YOUR SECOND POINT ABOUT WHO HAS AND WHO DOES NOT, AND WHAT YOU'RE GETTING IS REALLY ULTIMATELY WHAT IS A LIVING WAGE.

YOU ARE RIGHT.

I AM IN NEW YORK.

AT $75,000 A YEAR, YOU CERTAINLY CANNOT RAISE A FAMILY OF FOUR IN NEW YORK CITY.

HERE IS WHY WE ARE FIGHTING FOR A BASIC MINIMUM WAGE.

THAT'S JUST A BASIC LIVING WAGE, $15 AN HOUR FOR ALL WORKERS, BECAUSE IN NEW YORK CITY, BY THE WAY, YOU CAN STILL NOT RAISE YOUR FAMILY AND $15 AN HOUR.

BUT PLACES -- OF COURSE NOT, RIDICULOUS.

BUT SO MANY CONSERVATIVES ARE OPPOSED TO IT.

IF YOU ARE LIVING IN OKLAHOMA, MAYBE $15 AN HOUR MIGHT HELP YOU RAISE A FAMILY OF FOUR.

BUT THAT'S STILL LIVING IN POVERTY.

IT IS STILL LIVING IN POVERTY.

SO I APPRECIATE THAT QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, WHY DON'T WE CARE ABOUT PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO HAVE A LIVING WAGE?

>> CAN I -- >> GET IN THERE.

>> LET ME FACT-CHECKED THIS MATH REAL QUICKLY.

IF WE INCREASE THE FEDERAL MINIMUM WAGE FROM $15 AN HOUR, IN ONE-YEAR, A MINIMUM WAGE EARNER WOULD EARN MORE THAN THE MEDIAN INCOME TODAY IN WEST VIRGINIA.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S AN ISSUE.

CALIFORNIA ALREADY HAS A $14 MINIMUM WAGE IN PLACE, AND THAT HAS CREATED INFLATIONARY CRISIS.

IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, IT WOULD.

IT'S NOT FAIR TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAVINGS IN STATES WITH LOWER CPIs TO THE AND JUST DEPLETE ALL THEIR SAVINGS TO THE COST OF INFLATION.

$50 FEDERAL MINIMUM WAGE IS NOT BASED IN MATH OR ECONOMICS.

SOUNDS NICE ON A BUMPER STICKER.

>> SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

SHOULD THERE BE HIGHER MINIMUM WAGES AND MORE EXPENSIVE PLACES?

>> IT SHOULD BE HIGHER IF YOU BELIEVE IN MINIMUM WAGES, WHICH ECONOMICALLY ONLY 2 PERCENT OF PEOPLE MAKE A MINIMUM WAGE IN THEIR STATE, SO IT REALLY IS FOR ENTRY-LEVEL WORKERS, TEENAGERS WORKING AFTER SCHOOL.

MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT RAISING FAMILIES ANYWHERE EVEN CLOSE TO THE MINIMUM WAGE.

EVEN NOW, THE LAST JOBS REPORT THAT CAME OUT FOUND THAT THE MEDIAN -- FOUND THE AVERAGE HOURLY INCOME FOR RESTAURANT WORKERS, INCLUDING BUSBOYS, BACK OF THE BUILDING WORKERS, IS OVER $17 AN HOUR.

SO WE ARE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS IMPACTING ANY OF MOST OF THESE WORKERS, BUT RATHER CREATING INFLATIONARY CRISIS IN LESS WEALTHY STATES.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

BUT ONE MORE QUESTION TO YOU, WHICH IS, LET'S GET BACK TO THE THE POINT THAT IDEATION MADE ABOUT LOOKING, VIEWING OUR PEOPLE AND MOST ESPECIALLY OUR LOWER WAGE PEOPLE AND EVEN OUR LOWER MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE AS THE SAME WAY WE VIEW INFRASTRUCTURE: SHOULD WE BE INVESTING IN THOSE PEOPLE, OR SHOULD WE NOT?

WHAT DO LIBERTARIANS THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> SO, GIVEN THAT WE HAVE THREE POLITICAL REALITIES THAT BIDEN IT BUILDING ON MENTALLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND.

ONE, WE ARE LOOKING AT A DEBT CRISIS THAT, YES, DONALD TRUMP DID MAY WORK WORKS; LOOKING AT OUR DEATHS BEING GPE.

[INAUDIBLE] THEN 90 PERCENT OF OUR ANNUAL GDP IN TOTAL.

WE ALSO DO NOT HAVE THE POLITICAL WHEREWITHAL TO REFORM SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE IS DRIVING THAT OUT.

SO, YEAH, WHAT WE NEED IS POPULATION GROWTH.

RIGHT NOW WE ARE AT BELOW REPLACEMENT BIRTHRATE.

SO WE NEED TO CHANGE THE CLIMATE TO MAKE IT EASIER TO HAVE KIDS, BUT BIDEN'S BILL WILL NOT GET VOTES AND PASTOR RECONCILIATION.

YOU KNOW WHAT COULD THEORETICALLY?

MITT ROMNEY'S FAMILY SECURITY ACT, WHICH WOULD CONSOLIDATE A BUNCH OF WASTEFUL WELFARE PROGRAMS THAT ARE MEANS TESTED AND INSTEAD GIVE MEET LINE CHECKS OF $300 A MONTH TO EVERY -- PER CHILD TO EVERY PARENT IN AMERICA.HAT WOULD HELP THE POOR, IT WOULD NOT DISINCENTIVE AS WORK, AND THAT'S A REAL ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

[CROSS TALK] .

>> LESCAULT TO ERIN MATS ABOUT.

THANK YOU, TIANA.

WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU.

YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS?

>> THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT FAMILIES ARE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THIS COUNTRY.

FNA REALLY INTERESTING TO HEAR FROM COUNTERPARTS ON THE CONSERVATIVE END OF THE SPECTRUM NOT MAKING THAT ARGUMENT RIGHT NOW AND RATHER CHANGING THE TOPIC TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS AND THE MINIMUM WAGE, WHICH OF COURSE ARE IMPORTANT ISSUES BUT ARE NOT THE ISSUE AT HAND.

OF COURSE WE NEED TO EXTEND THE CHILD TAX CREDIT RIGHT NOW SO THAT PEOPLE HAVE -- ARE ABLE TO CAREFULLY FAMILIES.

OF COURSE WE NEED UNIVERSAL PRE-K.

THESE ARE PRECONDITIONS TO THRIVEE NEED FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE.

THIS IS A CRISIS IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND I WANT TO BE CLEAR: OF COURSE WE NEED TO RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE.

I'M THINKING ABOUT THOSE LINES OF CARS OUTSIDE STADIUMS WITH PEOPLE DRIVING UP FOR FOOD.

THIS IS A CRISIS.

PART OF THE GREAT SOCIETY IS INVESTING IN IT.

>> Bonnie: WHAT'S THE VALUE IN THIS AGENDA?

GOING BACK TO YOU, I ASSURE, BECAUSE YOU, BUT THE IDEA IS TREATING PEOPLE WHO DON'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES, LIKE THE SAME WAY WE TREAT BROKEN BRIDGES, I.E.

FIX THEM, GIVE THEM WHAT THEY NEED.

>> THE OVERALL VALUE OF THIS, I WILL START WITH POLITICS, BECAUSE I HATE TO POLITICIZE POLICY, BUT ALL POLICIES POLITICAL AT THIS POINT AND HAS BEEN FOR DECADES AND DECADES AND DECADES.

WE CANNOT SEPARATE THAT.

WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY, AND FRANKLY THE DEMOCRATS HAVE A MANDATE BECAUSE THEY CONTROL ALL, BOTH SIDES OF CONGRESS AS WELL AS THE WHITE HOUSE.HEY WERE ELECTED TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

AND WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THIS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL IS THAT IT IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

YES, IT DOES FEEL QUITE OMNIBUS FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO IGNORE FAMILIES AND JUST FOCUS ON FUZZY MATH, BY THE WAY, THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AND PRETEND THEIR DEFICIT CAUSE, NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE DEFICIT.

THEY THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT, THE PURPOSE OF GOVERNMENT IS TO CREATE CONDITIONS FOR US IN THE SOCIETY TO THRIVE.

WE ARE ONLY SOCIETY BY DEFINITION BECAUSE WE ARE MADE UP OF PEOPLE THAT PARTICIPATE IN IT.

SO YOU CANNOT HAVE ANY CONVERSATION THAT'S ABOUT POLICY THAT IGNORES PEOPLE, BECAUSE A FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT IS TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO THRIVE.

NOW, YOU CAN HAVE YOUR OWN CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW COMPETITION PLAYS IN THAT FROM A CAPITALIST AGENDA, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

BUT THAT'S THE THING THAT MATTERS AND THAT'S, FRANKLY, POLITICAL.

WE ARE IN TIMES RIGHT NOW WHERE THERE IS ONE FACTION OF AMERICA AND THEY ARE NOT THE MAJORITY.

THEY ARE THE LOUDMOUTHS WHO SAY, OKAY, THE ONLY WAY TO DEAL WITH THIS IS TO CREATE SOME KIND OF SOCIAL WORK, RIGHT?

WE ARE GOING TO YELL ABOUT PEOPLE BECAUSE WE ARE UPSET ABOUT OUR ECONOMIC CONDITION, SO WE WILL MAKE IT JUST BE ANGRY ABOUT PEOPLE.

WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY RIGHT NOW FOR ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO VOTED THESE FOLKS IN TO DO POLITICS IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND POLISENA DIFFERENT WAY THAT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT FAMILIES AND WORKERS AND PEOPLE CENTRIC.

THAT'S WHAT'S GREAT ABOUT ALL OF THIS.>> I WOULD LIKE TO TURN TO THE POLITICAL SIDE OF THINGS, BECAUSE AS HE SAID, EISHA, POLICY IS POLITICS.

>> BONNIE, I FEEL LIKE IT'S REALLY UNFAIR TO HAVE THIS JUST END THAT, THIS DISCUSSION END LIKE THAT BECAUSE THIS WHOLE THING IS ASSUMED THAT THE WAY YOU SET UP THIS QUESTION AND THE WAY IT'S BEEN FRAMED IS AS IF YOU DON'T LIKE FAMILIES IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE SPENDING $2 TRILLION ON THESE THINGS THAT, UNDER THIS GOVERNMENT IDEA OF, LIKE, FAMILIES, THE ONLY WAY TO SUPPORT FAMILIES IS TO THROW MONEY AT DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT ENTITIES.

I FEEL LIKE THAT'S JUST A REALLY FRUSTRATING STRONGMAN THAT I GOT -- THIS CONVERSATION, AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT.

TIANA AND I ARE NOT SITTING HERE, LIKE, OH, FORGET THOSE POOR FAMILIES, WHICH IS HOW YOU ARE TRYING TO DEMONIZE US.

WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT GETTING PAST THE POLITICS.

I KNOW I VERY MUCH BELIEVE THAT ASIA BELIEVES THAT WHAT HER ROLE IN WHICH HE BELIEVES AND HER POLICY AND THOUGHTS ARE WHAT'S BEST FOR THE COUNTRY AND BEST FOR PEOPLE, BUT I WISH THAT WE HAD A CONVERSATION THAT STARTED FROM THE PREMISE THAT ERIN AND ASIA WOULD GIVE US THE SAME KIND OF RESPECT TO THINK THAT WE ACTUALLY MAY THINK THAT WHAT'S BEST FOR FAMILIES IS NOT HAVING THE GOVERNMENT, IN AND CREATE A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL PROGRAM FOR PRESCHOOL AND STANDARDIZE HOW EVERY WORKER HAS TO BE AND HOW -- MAKE IT SO NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO ACCEPT A JOB THAT PAYS LESS THAN $15 AN HOUR OR HAS FEWER BENEFITS.

IT'S INCREDIBLY INSULTING, AND I GET FRUSTRATED WITH THAT.

I WOULD NEVER INSULT YOU LIKE THAT.

>> CARRIE MAKES A GREAT POINT.

SHE MAKES IT -- YOU MAKE A GREAT POINT AND I WOULD JUST RECENTLY SAY THAT ME, I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND MY YEARS OF BEING A PROGRESSIVE AND 20 YEARS AS A DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, THE DIFFERENCE THAT I FIND WITH DEMOCRATS AND CONSERVATIVES, NOT JUST CALLING THEM REPUBLICANS, BUT THIS IDEA IS THAT YOU CARE ABOUT ALL FAMILIES AND CONSERVATIVE POLICY CARES ABOUT CERTAIN PEOPLE'S FAMILIES AND GENERALLY JUST THEIR OWN.

SO YOU DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH YOUR CHILDREN IN YOUR PRIVATE PRE-K.

I CARE ABOUT EVERYONE WHO CAN'T AFFORD THAT.

>> YOU DID NOT CARE WHEN PUBLIC SCHOOLS DID NOT SERVE POOR PEOPLE.

AND ONLY ALLOWED THE RICH TO ESCAPE.

TO THE UNIONS, THIS WAS ABSOLUTELY -- I THINK THAT WHAT YOUR SYSTEM HAS DONE HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY TO HARM THE COURT.

SO I THINK -- [CROSS TALK]> KEEP IN MIND IS A BLACK WOMAN IN AMERICA, MY FAMILY ACTUALLY JUST GOT TO INTEGRATE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

SO THIS IS THIS ROLE.

IT'S HISTORIC.

IT'S DIRECTLY RELATED TO FAMILIES, IN FACT, AND PERSONAL BECAUSE IT'S DIRECTLY RELATED TO MY -- HISTORY OF OUR POLICY IN AMERICA.

>> YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE.

>> I ALWAYS DETEST, YOU KNOW, APPLYING MOTIVATIONS TO THINGS THAT I THINK A LOT OF US ON THE RIGHT ARE TWO BRAIN, THE VIEWING POLICIES THAT ARE NOT PROGROWTH.

AGAIN, I BROUGHT UP A POLICY THAT WOULD GIVE PARENTS THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF CASH DIRECTLY PER YEAR BASED ON THEIR CHILDREN.

I DON'T THINK THAT THAT MEANS -- AND I DON'T HAVE KIDS YET.

YEAH, I'M CARING ABOUT PARENTS EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT ONE YET.

AND ALL THINK THAT MEANS THAT JUST BECAUSE I AM OPPOSED TO SOMETHING LIKE PAID PARENTAL LEAVE, WHICH TENDS TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE.

IF YOU LOOK AT EVERY SINGLE STUDY OF WERE GOVERNMENT MANDATED AND PAID PARENTAL LEAVE HAS BEEN ENACTED, IT RESULTS IN WOMEN RECEIVING FEWER PROMOTIONS.

I MEAN, EVEN JONATHAN GROUPER, THE ARCHITECT OF OBAMACARE, SAID WE NEED TO LINED UP 100 PERCENT OF THE ECONOMIC BURDEN OF -- EVEN THOUGH WHEN IS THEORETICALLY.

[INAUDIBLE] AGAIN, NOT BECAUSE I DON'T WANT WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE, IT'S PRECISELY BECAUSE I DO CARE ABOUT WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE.

AND YET, BY THIS LOGIC, IT WOULD BE THAT I ACTUALLY SECRETLY AS WORKING WOMEN HATE WORKING WOMEN AND SOMEONE CARES ABOUT MY MOM AND WANTS TO ONE DAY BE A MOM, I JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT MOMS.

IS SUCH A BROKEN DISCOURSE AND IT'S THE WAY WE ELEVATE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY CRUEL, LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

>>.

[INAUDIBLE] >> BUT WE NEED TO WRAP THIS UP BECAUSE WE HAVE ANOTHER TOPIC TO GO TO, AND WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

>>> SO FROM FAMILIES TO RELIGION: FOR THE FIRST TIME, THEY ARE MORE RELIGIOUSLY UNAFFILIATED AMERICAN ADULTS THAN THOSE WHO BELONG TO A CHURCH, MOSQUE OR SYNAGOGUE.

UNAFFILIATED AMERICANS MEANS THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY ORGANIZED RELIGION.

DEPENDING ON THE SURVEY SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 20 TO 25 PERCENT OF AMERICANS CONSIDER THEMSELVES RELIGIOUS NONES, N-O-N-E-S, AND FOR WOMEN, THAT TREND IS ON THE RISE.

STUDY SHOW ELITE WHITE WOMEN ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE RELIGIOUS THAN THAN WOMEN WHO DO NOT HAVE HIGH-POWERED CAREERS.

BUT WEALTHY MAN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE AFFILIATEDTILL, THERE IS A GENDER GAP WITH MORE AMERICAN WOMEN THAN MEN REPORTING THEY ARE RELIGIOUS AND SPIRITUAL.

AISHA, WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

IS IT HAPPENING EQUALLY FOR AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN AND WHITE WOMEN?

>> I CANNOT ANSWER ALL OF THE POLES OF WHY PEOPLE ARE DETACHED, BUT I CAN ONLY SHARE MY COMMUNITY'S EXPERIENCE.

I WAS RAISED IN A SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH.

A LOT OF MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY ARE CLERGY, MY UNCLE WAS CHAIRMAN DEACON BOARD MY WHOLE LIFE.

PAST HER CHURCHES, VERY DEEP TRADITION IN SOUTH CAROLINA WERE MY PEOPLE ARE FROM.

WITH INTERESTING, AS WE GENERATIONALLY HAVE BECOME MORE EDUCATED TO THEN HAVE MORE ACCESS TO OTHER INSTITUTIONS THAT ALSO SUPPORT US, SOCIALLY, IS THAT WE ARE BRANCHING OUT THE WAYS THAT WE WORSHIP AND CONNECT.

IT'S NOT A DENIGRATION TO FAITH AND BELIEVE IN GOD, BUT THERE IS LESS NECESSITY FOR DOGMA, FRANKLY, THAT COMES FROM INSTITUTION.

AND AS THE BLACK CHAIR TO BEING THE EPICENTER OF ORGANIZING FOR CIVIL RIGHTS, NOW WE HAVE SO MANY OTHER PLACES WHERE WE ALSO COME TOGETHER IN THE ORGANIZATION FOR CIVIL RIGHTS.

I THINK THERE IS A DIFFUSION AND NOT NECESSARILY JUST A TURN YOUR BACK ON GOD, BUT IT DIFFUSION IN THE WAY WE BUILD AND CONNECT THE COMMUNITY.

>> TIANA, I WILL ASK YOU TO SPEAK FOR YOUR GENERATION ON THIS, BUT WHAT ARE MELANIA WOMEN THINKING?

ARE THEY FALLING AWAY MORE FROM RELIGION THAN THEIR MOTHERS AND GRANDMOTHERS ARE?

>>.

[INAUDIBLE] CLEARLY WE ARE NIHILISTIC GENERATION AND IN LARGE PART, YOU KNOW, POLITICS HAS A PLACE FOR RELIGION.

IS PROMINENT AND MORE PRONOUNCED ON THE LEFT FOR SURE, BUT IT'S TRUE THAT THAT'S HAPPENING TO AN EXTENT ON THE RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS THE NUMBER ONE THE FACTOR FOR REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS IN 2016, WHICH AFFORDED DONALD TRUMP, CANNOT MEASURE ALL TRUMP VOTERS, BUT THE PEOPLE, WHO WAS THE ORIGINAL BASE?

THE NUMBER ONE PREDICTOR -- WAS NOT, NOT HAVING RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION.

SO TO AN EXTENT, YOU KNOW-- [CROSS TALK] >> WAIT, YOU ARE SAYING TRUMP VOTERS DID NOT HAVE A RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION?

>> YES.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN WRIGHT?

I MEAN -- [CROSS TALK] >> HE WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL EVANGELICAL CANDIDATE.

TED CRUZ WAS GETTING THE EVANGELICAL VOTE.

YOU KNOW -- >> DOES NOT MATTER.

DONALD TRUMP GOT IT.

THEY WERE NOT GOING TO -- >> EVENTUALLY, YES, AS THEY STARTED CONSOLIDATING THE STATES AND BY THE TIME YOU GET TO CALIFORNIA AND YOU THE ONLY CANDIDATE THAT WAS NOT DONALD TRUMP, OF COURSE DONALD TRUMP LEAVES A LOT OF THE CHRISTIAN VOTE.

>> THIS IS GETTING TOO FAR STRAIGHT FROM THE MAIN POINT, WHICH IS WHY ARE WOMEN LEAVING THE CHURCH?

I WONDER IF, ESPECIALLY WITH THE EVANGELICAL CHURCHES, WHICH HAVE BECOME SO POLITICAL, THE PASTOR IS TELLING PEOPLE, THE PREACHERS ARE TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO VOTE, THEY ARE HANDING OUT BALLOTS, MARKED BALLOTS IN CHURCH TELLING PEOPLE TO VOTE STRAIGHT LINE REPUBLICAN TICKET AND THEY ARE STILL GETTING A TAX BREAKS WHICH IS AMAZING TO ME BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT, NOT NONPROFITS AS DEFINED BY THE IRS, ANYWAY.

THEY ARE BUSINESSES.

SO LET'S GO TO YOU, ERIN, FOR YOUR THOUGHTS, FINAL THOUGHTS ON THAT.

>> YEAH, I THINK THE FACT, I CAN SPEAK BECAUSE I WAS SOMEONE RAISED CATHOLIC AND REALLY GRAPPLES WITH ITT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT TIME FOR A LOT OF WOMEN RAISED IN FAITH TO SEE THEIR FAITH IS TURNING ITS BACK ON WOMEN AND TURNING ITS BACK ON PEOPLE OF COLOR.

YOU KNOW, PERSONALLY, I GRIEVED WHEN I SEE THIS CHURCH THAT I LOVE AND WAS CONFIRMED IN GO ON AND THERE IS BISHOPS SPEAKING AGAINST THE VACCINE.

PEOPLE ARE DYING RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR MAINLINE CHURCHES INCLUDING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO DIVEST FROM WHITE SUPREMACY AND TO DIVEST FROM CONNECTIONS WITH THOSE INDIVIDUALS AND ENTITIES THAT SUPPORT SOME HORRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN THE COUNTRY OVER THE LAST YEAR.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF WOMEN ARE STEPPING AWAY.

ONE THING I WANT TO BRING UP THAT'S A BIT DIFFERENT BUT INTERESTING IS I WOULD SAY LET'S LOOK AT RELIGIOSITY ON SOMETHING!

THERE WAS AN INTERESTING PIECE A WHILE BACK ABOUT RELIGION AND PELATON TURNING INTO A COLD FOR WOMEN.

I WANTED TO BRING THAT UP HERE, BECAUSE YOU DO SEE PEOPLE PUTTING RELIGIOUS FEELINGS AND FERVOR INTO THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRADITIONAL RELIGIONS.

>> IN YOUR FINAL THOUGHTS ON THIS, CARRIE?

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE WOMEN ARE FALLING AWAY FROM -- THEY MAY REMAIN SPIRITUAL, THEY MAY BELIEVE IN GOD ON THEIR OWN, BUT THEY ARE LEAVING ORGANIZED RELIGION IN GREAT NUMBERS.

WHY?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T THINK -- I THINK THE LARGER TREND THAT'S REALLY DISTURBING IS THE FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE PULLING AWAY FROM COMMUNITIES ENTIRELY.

I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE ONE OF THE BIGGEST QUESTIONS COMING OUT OF THE COVID PANDEMIC, IS DO WE BECOME A CIVIL SOCIETY CAN WE MEET IN PERSON AND HAVE RELATIONSHIPS?

ARE WE ABLE TO HAVE KIND OF SPACES WHERE WE CAN MEET TOGETHER AND WHETHER IT'S RELIGIOUSLY BUT ALSO FOR OTHER THINGS.

>> BUT WHY WOMEN?

WHY WOMEN?

AS MANY -- FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THIS COUNTRY, THERE ARE MORE RELIGIOUSLY UNAFFILIATED PEOPLE THAN AFFILIATED, AND THEY ARE JUST AS MANY, THIS IS AMAZING TO ME, UNAFFILIATED PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, 25 PERCENT, AS OUR CHRISTIAN EVANGELICALS.

THAT IS A REAL DIFFERENCE IN VOTING PATTERNS.

>> BEYOND THE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS OF THIS, I THINK THAT WOMEN HAD BEEN KIND OF THAT CORE THAT WHERE THE PEOPLE WHO STAFFED NOT ONLY CHURCHES BUT COMMUNITY CENTERS, AND ALL OF THOSE ARE USING PASSION.

I DO THINK THE FACT THAT POLITICS HAS SEEPED IN FROM BOTH THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT ON SCHOOL BOARDS, ON COMMUNITY CENTERS, CHURCHES, RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION OF ALL KINDS MAYBE PART OF IT.

PEOPLE ARE NO LONGER COMFORTABLE COMING TO SUCH PLACES.

BUT I ALSO THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY AFTER COVID, DECIDED THAT LIFELOCK ENDORSE WATCHING NETFLIX SEEMS SATISFYING TO THEM.

I THINK IT'S A REAL SHAME IN IT'S A LONG-TERM PUBLIC HEALTH, POTENTIAL PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.

I SURE HOPE MY KIDS ARE ABLE TO RECOVER FROM THIS YEAR OF A SOLUTION, BECAUSE I DO THINK IT HAS POTENTIAL LONG-LASTING CONSEQUENCES THAT ARE NOT GOOD.

>> OKAY.

INC. YOU, ALL.

THIS WAS A GREAT, GREAT DISCUSSION.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN, CARRIE AND AISHA.

WILL SEEING YOU AGAIN SOON.

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