POLITICS AND RELIGION PLUS THAT TEXAS ABORTION LAW.

STAY TUNED.

"IVORY TOWER" IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M BARBARA FOUGHT FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

JOINING ME IN FOR THIS WEEK'S SHOW ARE: LUKE PERRY, FROM UTICA COLLEGE, KRISTI ANDERSEN, FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, CHAD SPARBER, FROM COLGATE UNIVERSITY, AND BOB SPITZER, FROM SUNY-CORTLAND.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF CRITICISM THIS PAST WEEK FOR THE WAY THE PULLOUT IN AFGHANISTAN WAS HANDLED.

AND HIS LATEST BUMPY ROAD LEADS ME TO THINK IT'S TIME WE TOOK A LOOK AT THE FIRST SEVEN MONTHS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

SO LUKE, HOW HAS BIDEN BEEN AS A LEADER?

>> IT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

IT'S STILL EARLY IN THE ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK HE HAS BROUGHT A LEVEL OF STABILITY AND EMPATHY TO THE OFFICE THAT HAD BEEN LACKING IN RECENT YEARS.

FOREIGN POLICY HAS BEEN A CHALLENGE IN RECENT WEEKS AS WE'LL DISCUSS MORE.

BUT I GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR DOING SOMETHING THAT OBAMA AND THRUSM DID NOT HAVE TRUMP DID NOT HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO WHICH IS TO END THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN WHICH BOTH PRESIDENTS WANTED TO BUT ULTIMATELY DECIDED NOT TO.

ON DOMESTIC POLICY I'M SURPRISED HE IS PRESIDING OVER SUCH AN EXPANSION OF SOCIAL POLICY.

I DID NOT EXPECT THAT FROM THE CAMPAIGN BUT ULTIMATELY, I THINK HE IS GOING TO BE JUDGED ON COVID AND WHERE THE COUNTRY IS AND OBVIOUSLY WITH THE DELTA VARIANT THOSE THINGS ARE BETTER AND OUR PREPAREDNESS, THERE IS A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY THERE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT HITTING YOURSELF IN THE HEAD WITH A HAMMER IS THAT IT FEELS REALLY GOOD WHEN YOU STOP DOING IT AND AFTER FOUR YEARS OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY, THE TACT THAT JOE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT, NO DRAMA, NO HISTRIONICS, YOU MAY ARGUE ABOUT HIS POLICY CHOICES AND SOME OF THE THINGS HE SAYS, SO PART OF WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, I THINK, IS THAT THE TOAP IS SO MUCH LOWER THAT HE HAS NOT BECOME THIS MEDIA MAGNET SO HE DOESN'T QUITE HAVE THE PUBLIC PRESENCE THAT DONALD TRUMP DID AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT ALONG WITH THAT.

AND IN A WAY, THAT DOESN'T HELP IN IN TERMS OF HIS STANDING BECAUSE HE IS NOT QUITE THE FOCUS OF MEDIA ATTENTION THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU LOOK AT BIDEN'S POLL NUMBERS, DESPITE , YOU KNOW, ALL OF THE ADVERSE PUBLICITY SURROUNDING THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN AND IT DIDN'T GO THE WAY HE HIMSELF SAID IT WOULD GO, AND THAT DIDN'T HELP HIM POLITICALLY, LEAVING ASIDE THE HUMANITARIAN TERRIBLE SITUATION, HIS POLL NUMBERS HAVE CHANGED FAIRLY LITTLE.

HE BEGAN AROUND 56-57%.

HE IS AROUND 49%.

AND FINAL POINT, FOREIGN POLICY NOT PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT TO MOST AMERICANS.

MOST AMERICANS AGREED WITH THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN SO IN TERMS OF LONG-TERM EFFECTS ON HIS PRESIDENCY, IN TERMS OF AFGHANISTAN, I THINK IT WON'T REALLY BE MUCH OF ANYTHING.

>> I THINK IT IS INTERESTING THAT THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA HAVE REALLY LAID INTO BIDEN.

IT'S AS IF THEY DON'T WANT TO BE ACCUSED BY THE RIGHT WING OF GIVING HIM TOO MUCH PRAISE AND SO ON SO THIS ALLOWED THEM TO REALLY PUSH BACK BUT I WANTED TO QUOTE SOMETHING WRITTEN BY A CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST WITH THE NEW YORK TIMES WITH WHOM I OFTEN DISAGREE BUT I THOUGHT HE DID A GOOD JOB OF TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC OPINION AND CRITICISM OF BIDEN FOR THE PULLOUT.

HE SAID OUR BOTCHED WITHDRAWAL IS THE PUNCTUATION MARK ON A JENNICA TASS FEE.

IF THE ONLY ASPECT OF THIS CATASTROPHE THAT OUR LEADERS REMEMBER IS WHAT WENT WRONG IN AUGUST 2021, WE WILL HAVE LEARNED NOTHING EXCEPT TO ALWAYS DOUBLE DOWN ON FAILURE AND THE NEXT DISASTER WILL BE WORSE.

I THINK THAT IS A VERY, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT THE WHOLE THING, NOT JUST.

>> I LIKE BIDEN.

FOR ME AFGHANISTAN CHANGED EVERYTHING.

I THINK I CAN SAY THAT THIS IS THE BIGGEST U.S. FOREIGN POLICY DISASTER IN MY LIFETIME AND THAT MATTERS.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE RAMIFICATIONS NOT JUST THE OBVIOUS, IS AFGHANISTAN GOING TO BECOME A CENTER FOR TERRORIST TRAINING BUT ALSO THE ISSUES LIKE THE WAY THAT YOU CAN THINK ABOUT THE CONFLICT AS SORT OF BEING A SMALL PROXY WAR BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND INDIA AND THE WAY THAT THEY CONTRIBUTED TO THE CONFLICT OR HOW AMERICA HAS NOW BEEN SHOWN TO BE AN UNRELIABLE ALLY AND PLAYED UP IN CHINESE MEDIA LIKE THIS IS AN OMEN FOR WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN TAIWAN.

NOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LIKE ESCALATING KIND OF RHETORIC AMONG NUCLEAR POWERS AND IT'S SCARY AND IT'S ON BIDEN AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE EXCUSING THAT.

>> LUKE, FOREIGN POLICY DISASTER?

>> I THINK IT'S CERTAINLY A CHALLENGING SITUATION.

I THINK IT'S A LITTLE MORE THAN WHAT KRISTI WAS SAYING THAT PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT PERCEPTION OVER MEDIA COVERAGE.

PEOPLE DIED AND SOME OF THOSE WERE SERVICE PEOPLE.

I'M NOT TRYING TO SIMPLIFY YOUR POINT BUT PEOPLE DIED, HUNDREDS OF CIVILIANS DIED AT THE AIRPORT, AFGHANIS.

THAT'S NOT GOOD.

AND TO CHAD'S POINT, I THINK THERE ARE CERTAINLY FOREIGN POLICY CHALLENGES, BUT I THINK THIS IS A WAR THAT WAS LOST LONG AGO AND SOME PRESIDENT HAD TO MAKE A DECISION TO MOVE FORWARD AND THERE ARE GOING TO BE CONSEQUENCES AND IMPLICATIONS AND SOME OF THOSE ARE GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT, BUT AGAIN, I THINK IT'S THE RIGHT CHOICE GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> THE OTHER THING IS THAT THERE IS A FAIR ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THAT THIS HELPS AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY BECAUSE IT'S NO LONGER FUNNELING RESOURCES DOWN THE SINK HOLE OF AFGHANISTAN.

IT PLOPS THE PROBLEM INTO THE LAPS OF THE NOW GOVERNING TALIBAN.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GOVERN A COUNTRY.

HOW THE HECK ARE THEY GOING TO DO THAT?

THEY DON'T HAVE THE BACKGROUND.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE WREAD READY MADE STRUCTURE.

THEY HAVE FACTIONAL DISPUTES WITHIN THE NATION.

CHINA WANTS TO PLAY A GREATER ROLE, RUSSIA MAYBE.

BUT IT MAY WELL BE THE CIRCUMSTANCE THAT ALLOWS AMERICA TO CHANNEL ITS FOREIGN POLICY RESOURCES IN OTHER MORE HELPFUL DIRECTIONS WITH RESPECT TO AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY PRIORITIES.

AND CERTAINLY AFGHANISTAN, AS A POSSIBLE PLACE FOR RENEWED TERRORIST ACTIVITIES, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT PROBLEM AND SIGNIFICANT CONCERN.

BUT AMERICA RESERVES THE RIGHT TO STRIKE AT THOSE PLACES SHOULD THEY ARISE AND SHOULD THEY OCCUR.

AND IT'S GOING TO BE ONE THING THAT BIDEN AND HIS SUCCESSORS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO KEEP AN EYE ON, NO DOUBT.

>> I THINK YOU ARE MISSING SOME OF THE POINT THERE THOUGH.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF RHETORIC ABOUT McCAIN AND HE SAID THIS COULD BE A 100-YEAR WAR AND PEOPLE WERE UPSET ABOUT THAT.

WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT IN CONTEXT IS HAVING A MILITARY BASE PRESENCE IN THE COUNTRY LIKE WE HAVE HAD WITH JAPAN AND GERMANY AND, YOU KNOW, SINCE 1903 WOVE' HAD GUANTANAMO BAY AND THAT GIVES US ACCESS TO INFORMATION TO ON THE GROUND TERRORISTS ACTIVITIES AND WE'VE LOST ALL OF THAT.

AND IF WE WERE TO HAPPEN TO LEARN ABOUT A TERRORIST ACTIVITY THAT WOULD JUSTIFY AN AIR STRIKE, NOW WE HAVE TO FLY THROUGH PAKISTANI OR IRANIAN AIR SPACE TO DO IT.

THAT MAKES IT QUITE DIFFICULT.

SO YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF GLOBAL SECURITY, I THINK WE ARE IN A MUCH WORSE SITUATION.

>> SO WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE US DONE?

DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD HAVE LEFT A MILITARY FORCE THERE?

>> I DO.

>> WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT POLITICS AND OVER LAY THE TOPIC OF RELIGION.

JUST FEWER THAN HALF OF AMERICANS SAY THEY BELONG TO A SYNAGOGUE, MOSQUE OR CHURCH.

AND WHILE THERE IS A REALLY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE, MAYBE ABOUT 4% WHO CALL THEMSELVES ATHEIST, ANOTHER SURVEY OF THE COOPERATIVE CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION STUDY FOUND THAT ATHEIST ARE THE MOST POLITICALLY ACTIVE.

THEY CONTACT PUBLIC OFFICIALS, THEY DONATE MONEY, THEY GO TO PROTESTS.

SO I'M WONDERING, KRISTI, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE POLITICAL PARTIES?

>> WELL, I WOULD FIRST SAY THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE PRESS TABULATIONS BETWEEN PEOPLE, THE WILLINGNESS TO SAY YOU ARE AN ATHEIST ON AN EDUCATIONAL LEVEL.

PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY'RE ATHIEST ARE TYPICALLY MORE EDUCATED PEOPLE AND EDUCATED PEOPLE TEND TO PARTICIPATE MORE IN POLITICS.

THAT MAY BE WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE.

YOU KNOW, THE IMPLICATIONS FOR POLITICS IS THAT THE COALITIONS WHICH SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC PARTIES ARE CHANGING.

BUT THEY CHANGE FAIRLY OFTEN.

AND THAT'S-- WE, UNLIKE SOME COUNTRIES, WHICH HAVE PARTIES THAT ARE FORMALLY CONNECTED TO RELIGION, SAY, THE NETHERLANDS HAS A CATHOLIC PEOPLES PARTY, FOR EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE MANY POLITICAL PARTIES IN VARIOUS COUNTRIES WHICH ARE HOOKED UP TO LABOR UNIONS OR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS AND WHATEVER, ETHNIC ORGANIZATIONS.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE HERE.

SO WE SEE SWITCHING AROUND.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO VERY FAR BACK TO LOOK AT HOW DIFFERENT THE COALITIONS WERE IN TERMS OF RELIGION, GEOGRAPHY AND SO ON.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" SAYS VOTERS, RELIGIOUS VOTERS, ESPECIALLY WHITEY VAN GEL CA PROTESTANTS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS ARE PART OF THE BEDROCK OF THE MODERN REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THAT TOOK ME ABACK AS SOMEONE WHO HAS WRITTEN ABOUT THE NEW DEAL IN THE MID 20th CENTURY.

NO, CATHOLICS WERE NOT THE BEDROCK OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THEY WERE ALL ASSUMED TO BE DEMOCRATS.

AND UP UNTIL FAIRLY RECENTLY.

OUR PARTY COALITIONS SWITCH AROUND.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE 1950s OR 60S AT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EDUCATION LEVELS AND PARTY, YOU SAW THAT AS PEOPLE HAD MORE EDUCATION, THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO VOTE REPUBLICAN.

NOW THAT'S SWITCHED COMPLETELY.

THAT AS PEOPLE HAVE MORE EDUCATION, THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO VOTE DEMOCRATIC.

>> I THINK THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU KNOW, ON THE QUESTION OF WHY HAS AMERICA HISTORICALLY BEEN MORE RELIGIOUS THAN SAY EUROPE, ONE OF THE INTERESTING EXPLANATIONS OF THAT IS THAT WE HAVE HAD A VIBRANT COMPETITIVE MARKETPLACE FOR RELIGION, RIGHT?

THE CHURCHES COMPETE WITH EACH OTHER FOR BUTTS IN THE PEWS, SOULS IN HEAVEN OR WHATEVER.

SO WHAT HAS CHANGED, I THINK, IS A G.O.P.

MONOPOLY PARTICULARLY ON, SO YOU GET YOUNG PEOPLE WHO REJECT THE I HAD POCK HYPOCRISY OF GEORGE W. BUSH BOMBING IRAQ UNDER THE FALSE PRETENSE THAT THEY HAD CHEMICAL WEAPONS OR ANYTHING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

SO YOU HAVE THESE LEADERS MOST CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH THE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT PUSHING YOUNG FOLKS AWAY FROM RELIGION AND THAT'S TRAGIC, SAD AND IF THE EVANGELICALS WANT TO KEEP THEIR FAITH, THEY HAVE TO BREAK UP THE MONOPOLY.

>> YOU ARE IMPLICITLY TALKING ABOUT AND WHITE EVANGELICALS GAIN THAT PEAKED IN 2004 WITH PRESIDENT BUSH'S REELECTION AND WITH THE CULTURE BATTLES UNFOLDING AS THEY ARE, THEY'RE ACCEPTING AS COUNTERCULTURE, THEY'RE NOT MAINSTREAM THINKING WHEN IT COMES TO SEXUALITY AND SOCIETY.

THAT'S A STRUGGLE ON THE RIGHT.

ON THE LEFT, RACE IS A CHALLENGE BECAUSE YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT UTICA, FOR INSTANCE, HOW DO YOU UNIFY BLACK UTICAN ACTIVISTS WHO ARE CHURCH GOERS ALSO EVANGELICAL WITH WHITE SUBURBAN MOMS AND GRANDMAS FROM NEW HARTFORD AND CLINTON.

THEY HAVE MANY SIMILAR VIEWS BUT THEIR DAILY LIVES ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

DHOANT LIVE IN THE SAME COMMUNITIES EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE JUST MILES APART.

THAT'S A CHALLENGE ON THE LEFT THAT RELIGION AND RACE PLAYS A ROLE IN.

>> I'M NOT SURE HOW THIS TRANSLATES INTO SIGNIFICANT POLITICAL CHANGE IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE.

KRISTI SUGGESTS A KEY POINT WHICH IS THAT THERE ARE MULTIPLE FACTORS THAT EXPLAIN THE BEHAVIOR OF INDIVIDUALS AND GROUPS AND IT COULD WELL BE THAT PEOPLE THAT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS ATHEISTS WHEN AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE IS 40%, I THINK, IT MAY ALSO BE AN ARTIFACT OF HIGHER LEVELS OF EDUCATION BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE CONTINUE TO GET EDUCATION IN YOUNGER AGE COHORTS.

BUT IF THAT, INDEED, LEADS TO GREATER POLITICAL ACTIVISM, IT COULD BECOME A GREATER FORCE BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST THE TRAITS IN SOCIETY, IT'S THE EXTENT TO WHICH PEOPLE IN VARIOUS CATEGORIES DECIDE TO PARTICIPATE IN POLITICS.

REMEMBER THE VOTING PERCENTAGE RATE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN RECENT ELECTION YEARS HAS HOVERED AROUND 60% IN PRESIDENTIAL YEARS.

ALTHOUGH I THINK IT WAS HIGHER IN 2020.

I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THE NUMBER WAS.

IT WAS OVER MAYBE 65%, SOME NUMBER LIKE THAT WHICH IS AN EXTREMELY HIGH NUMBER BUT IT STILL MEANS THAT A THIRD OF THE POPULATION THAT'S ELIGIBLE TO PARTICIPATE DOESN'T.

SO IT'S A TWO-STEP PROCESS.

WHAT ARE THE CHANGES IN THE DEMOGRAPHY OF THE COUNTRY AND DOES THAT HAVE CONCRETE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE POLITICAL SYSTEM?

>> LUKE'S POINT IS A GOOD ONE ABOUT HOW DO YOU GET GROUPS THAT ARE DIVERSE IN VARIOUS WAYS OR DON'T HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCES TO WORK TOGETHER?

AND I SEE HOPE FOR THAT AMONG YOUNGER PEOPLE.

I MEAN I THINK WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR, YOU KNOW, THE BLACK FOLKS IN THE UTICA NEIGHBORHOODS AND THE MOMS IN NEW HARTFORD OR WHATEVER, I THINK YOUNG PEOPLE ARE OVERCOMING THOSE DIFFERENCES TO SOME EXTENT, SEEING SOME OF-- I THINK ABOUT STACY ABRAMS AND PEOPLE LIKE THAT WHO ARE ORGANIZING, PEOPLE WHO ARE BOTH BLACK AND WHITE, YOUNG AND OLD, TO GO ABOUT AND SUPPORT VOTING RIGHTS, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> I THINK THE DECREASE IN RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION, I'M INTERESTING TO SEE IF THAT IS A LONG-TERM TREND OR SHORT-TERM TREND.

WE SAW SOMETHING SIMILAR IN THE 60s.

TIME MAGAZINE ASKED IS GOD DEAD?

WE ARE GOING THROUGH ANOTHER PERIOD.

THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY ATHEIST.

THEY JUST DON'T HAVE AN AFFILIATION.

THEY ARE STILL SPIRITUAL AND COULD COME BACK TO THE RELIGIOUS CONTEXT AS WELL.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICS AND RELIGION, THERE IS NO ISSUE MORE CONTENTIOUS THAN ABORTION.

AS OF THIS WEEK, WOMEN IN TEXAS CANNOT GET AN ABORTION IF THEY'RE MORE THAN SIX WEEKS PREGNANT.

THIS LAW HAS BEEN CRAFTED DIFFERENTLY.

THIS ALLOWS CITIZENS TO SUE MEDICAL STAFF WHO PERFORM OR EVEN THOSE WHO AID IN ABORTIONS AFTER SIX WEEKS.

THE SUPREME COURT REFUSED TO PUT AN EMERGENCY STOP ON THIS LAW, BUT THE FULL LEGAL APPEALS WILL CONTINUE.

AND I'M WONDERING, BOB, HOW SIGNIFICANT THIS IS?

>> WELL, THIS IS THE FIRST VERY CLEAR INDICATION OF WHERE THE SUPREME COURT WANTS TO GO.

I JUST THINK IT'S A MATTER OF TIME NOW, THE CLOCK IS TICKING, UNTIL TOUCH SUCH TIME THAT THE SUPREME COURT VOTES IN SOME MANNER TO DISMANTLE THE PRINCIPLE OF ROE V. WADE AND ALSO A SUBSEQUENT CASE FROM THE EARLY 19 90S CALLED PLANNED PARENTHOOD VS. CASEY WHICH IS THE OPERATIVE ABORTION CASE FROM ABOUT 30 YEARS AGO.

THE SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO DISMANTLE ABORTION RIGHTS IN SOME MANNER.

AND MY SORT OF GUT FEELING ABOUT IT IS THAT THEY WON'T SIMPLY RULE TO OVERTURN ROE V. WADE FLAT OUT.

I THINK THEY WILL CHIP AWAY AT IT IN WAYS THAT WILL TAKE THE PINS OUT FROM UNDER THAT.

AND OF COURSE IF ROE DISAPPEARED TOMORROW, STATES WOULD STILL BE FREE TO HAVE THEIR OWN KINDS OF ABORTION LAWS MEANING SOME STATES WOULD CONTINUE TO HAVE LIBERALIZED ABORTION LAWS AND OTHERS NOT.

THE THING ABOUT THE TEXAS LAW, THERE ARE A COUPLE THUNKS THAT ARE DISTURBING ABOUT IT ASIDE AND APART FROM HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT ABORTION.

ONE IS THAT IT'S AN OBVIOUS CONFLICT WITH EXISTING CASE LAW AND SUPREME COURT SAID YESTERDAY IN OPINION WHICH IS INCREASINGLY HOW THEY DEAL WITH IMPORTANT DECISIONS THAT ITSELF I THINK IS A BIG PROBLEM, TO ALLOW IT TO GO AHEAD FOR NOW EVEN THOUGH IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THE LAW HALTS ABORTIONS IN THE STATE.

AND THE SUPREME COURT, I THINK, HAS A FUNDAMENTAL OBLIGATION TO CONFRONT THAT DIRECTLY.

AND I DON'T THINK-- I THINK THEY'RE DODGING IT IN ORDER TO LET IT PROCEED.

THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

AND THE OTHER THING ABOUT THE TEXAS-- TWO OTHER THINGS ABOUT THE TEXAS LAW, ONE IS AS YOU SAID, IT ESSENTIALLY STOPS ABORTIONS AT SIX WEEKS.

MANY PERHAPS MOST WOMEN DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS THEY'RE PREGNANT AFTER SIX WEEKS.

SO-- AND THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE OR INCEST.

BUT THE OTHER IS THE ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM.

THIS TEXAS LAW ACTUALLY BARS THE TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL FROM ENFORCING THE LAW.

IT'S ACTUALLY IN THAT THAT THE TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL IS BARRED FROM ENFORCING THE LAW THAT THE TEXAS LEGISLATURE PASSED.

SO HOW IS IT ENFORCED?

IT'S ENFORCED BY INVITING PRIVATE CITIZENS TO FILE CIVIL SUITS TO SUE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE PROVIDING ABORTION SERVICES OR COUNSELING OR EVEN BY IMPLICATION IF THEY ARE WHICH MEANS IF YOU HAVE ORGANIZATIONS WITH BIG MONEY BEHIND THEM AND THAT MONEY IS OUT THERE, THEY WILL SUE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE PLANNED PARENTHOOD BACK TO THE STONE AGE.

>> BUT THIS VIGILANTE PART OF IT REALLY JUST SEEMS HORRIBLE TO ME, THAT APPARENTLY ANTIABORTION GROUPS ARE ALREADY SETTING UP ANONYMOUS TIP LINES THAT PEOPLE CAN CALL IN AND SAY I THINK THIS PERSON TALKED TO THIS OTHER PERSON ABOUT WHATEVER AND I DON'T GET HOW THE STATE LEGISLATURE CAN SAY WE HAVE A NEW LAW BUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL CAN'T ENFORCE IT?

I MEAN THAT SEEMS COMPLETELY WRONG TO ME AND THIS IS-- WELL, I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAY BECAUSE I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS COULD EVEN HAPPEN AND IT JUST SEEMS LIKE SO EVIL.

WHO THOUGHT THIS UP?

>> IT IS ODD.

MAKE THIS ABOUT ANY OTHER TOPIC OTHER THAN ABORTION, LIKE YOU SAY, THIS THIRD PARTY LAWSUITS ELEMENT, IS THERE ANY OTHER CONTEXT...

BUT, OKAY.

SO ON THE TOPIC IN GENERAL, I OBVIOUSLY WANT TO TREAD LIGHTLY BECAUSE IT'S SUPER SENSITIVE WHENEVER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ABORTION AND I WANT TO START FROM THE PREMISE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE SHARE COMMON GROUND IN WANTING FEWER ABORTIONS.

THE QUESTION IS, IS THIS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE.

AND I'M REMINDED OF RESEARCH BY ANDREA KELLY WHO IS AN ECONOMIST.

SHE STUDIED AN ABORTION RESTRICTION THAT PENNSYLVANIA PASSED ABOUT A DECADE AGO AND SHE FOUND THAT YEAH, MAYBE THOSE RESTRICTIONS REDUCED ABORTIONS IN PENNSYLVANIA BY ABOUT 14%.

BUT SHE ALSO FOUND THESE REALLY HUGE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, MOST IMPORTANTLY THAT IT SHIFTED THE TIMING OF ABORTION FROM EARLY DURING THE PREGNANCY TO MUCH LATER IN THE GESTATIONAL PERIOD WHICH I THINK MOST OF US WOULD AGREE IS A BAD THING.

AND I CAN ABSOLUTELY IMAGINE SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENING HERE WITH WOMEN, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO GO ACROSS STATE BORDERS TO ACCESS AN ABORTION IF THEY WANT ONE.

SO EVEN IF YOU ARE PRO-LIFE, ANTIABORTION, THERE ARE CONCERNING ELEMENTS.

>> AND THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES THAT FIND THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MOST REDUCE ABORTIONS IN A STATE IS PROVIDING GOOD BIRTH CONTROL FOR EVERYBODY, COLORADO THERE IS A GOOD IN THAT REGARD.

WELL THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER ARGUMENT.

BUT THE LEGALITY OF THIS, I MEAN DO WE THINK THE STRUCTURE OF THE LAW CAN BE CHALLENGED?

JUST THIS WHOLE, YOU KNOW, PRIVATE CITIZENS ENFORCING A LAW, PEOPLE WHO ARE ELECTED TO ENFORCE THE LAW CAN'T DO IT?

THAT SEEMS WRONG.

LUKE?

>> I THINK THE STRATEGY HERE IS TO MAKE THAT DIFFICULT SO THERE NEEDS TO BE HARM DEMONSTRATED.

SO I THINK THE INTENT IS TO FORCE PEOPLE TO BE IN A POSITION TO VIOLATE THE LAW AND THEN BRING A SUIT AND SO THERE IS GOING TO BE MOST PEOPLE ARE UNLIKELY TO DO IT.

PROVIDERS DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE RISK.

PEOPLE WHO WANT OR NEED AN ABORTION PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO GO THAT ROAD AND BECOME THE FACE OF THIS NATIONAL LEGAL FIGHT SO I THINK THAT WAS THE INTENT OF THE LAW AND WE'VE SEEN THAT.

ABORTION CRITICS HAVE AROUND THE COUNTRY THROUGHOUT THE CENTURY, THROWN THROUGH STRAIGHT LEGISLATURES A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT LAWS THAT THEY KNOW OF QUESTIONABLE CONSTITUTIONAL MERIT TO SEE HOW FAR THEY COULD MOVE POLICY IN THIS AREA.

TO ME IT'S A CULMINATION OF YEARS OF STRATEGIC WORK.

>> I WOULD MENTION ALSO THAT THIS MECHANISM ABOUT WRITING A LAW THAT ALLOWS PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS TO SUE TO ADVANCE SOME PUBLIC POLICY PURPOSE HAS APPEARED IN ANOTHER REALM WHICH IS GUN CONTROL.

LOCALITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY HAVE ENACTED SECOND AMENDMENT SANCTUARY LAWS WHICH MOST PEOPLE MAYBE HAVEN'T HEARD OF BUT SOME OF THE PROVISIONS AND THIS IS GOING BACK MONTHS OR EVEN TO LAST YEAR, SAY THAT PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS CAN FILE SUIT IF LOCAL PEOPLE TRY AND ABIDE BY STATE OR FEDERAL GUN LAWS, USING THE SAME REGULATORY MECHANISM.

IT'S VERY BIZARRE.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WE HAVE TO MOVE TO THE GRADEBOOK.

AND LET'S START WITH OUR Fs, LUKE, YOU'RE UP.

>> MY F RECOGNIZES OVERDOSE AWARENESS DAY WHICH HAPPENED EARLIER THIS WEEK.

70,000 AMERICANS DIE EACH YEAR FROM DRUG OVERDOSES INCLUDING 40 PER DAY FROM PRECIPITATION DRUGS.

>> AND KRISTI.

>> MY F GOES TO CLAUDIA TENNEY AS IT OFTEN DOES.

SHE SEEMS TO BE SPENDING MUCH OF HER TIME RIGHT NOW CALLING FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN'S IMPEACHMENT, THE CONSTITUTION, YOU WILL REMEMBER, SAYS THAT A PRESIDENT CAN BE IMPEACHED FOR TREASON, BRIBERY OR OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.

TENNEY BELIEVES THAT MAKING FORTUNE DECISIONS SHE DISAGREES WITH ARE GROUNDS FOR IMPEACHMENT.

>> CHAD.

>> MY F GOES TO THE PUNDITS AND MEDIA OUTLETS WHO TRIED TO SUGAR COAT OR LOOK ON THE BRIGHT SIDE OF BIDEN'S WITHDRAWAL OF AFGHANISTAN AND/OR SHIFT THE BLAME TO TRUMP.

BIDEN HAD A CHOICE AND HE MADE THE WRONG ONE.

>> BOB.

>> MY F IS GOING TO MY UNIONS, THE NEW YORK CITY UNITED-- NEW YORK STATE UNITED TEACHERS AND UNITED PROFESSIONAL PROFESSIONS FOR THEIR FAILURE TO EMBRACE MANDATORY VACCINATIONS.

THE UNION SAYS THE HIGHEST PRIORITY IS THE WELL-BEING OF THEIR MEMBERS YET THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT AND EMBRACE THE ONE REMEDY WHICH IS ESSENTIAL, WHICH IS VACCINATION FOR ALL OF ITS MEMBERS.

AND UUP NEEDS TO ESPECIALLY UP.

IN FACT IT EVEN SUPPORTS MANDATORY VACCINATION FOR ALL COLLEGE STUDENTS, WHY NOT FOR THE MEMBERS, TOO?

>> AND LUKE, I BET SOMEBODY HAS DONE SOMETHING THAT YOU LIKE THIS WEEK.

WHO ARE YOU GIVING AN A TO?

>> MY A GOES TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FOR A NEW PROGRAM THIS WEEK THAT EQUIPS FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT WITH BODY CAMERAS.

I THINK THIS WILL ENHANCE EFFECTIVENESS, ACCOUNTABILITY AND PUBLIC TRUST.

>> AND CHAD.

>> IF YOU ARE A FAN OF 90s ROCK AND I'M SURE OUR ENTIRE VIEWING AUDIENCE IS, YOU WILL KNOW DAVE GROEL.

CURRENT FRONT MAN OF THE FOO FIGHTERS.

AT A RECENT CONCERT IN A BIG ARENA, HE INVITED 11-YEAR-OLD MANDIE BUSHEL TO DRUM WITH THE BAND.

IF YOU WATCH IT, IT'S PURE JOY.

GIRL IS A GOOD MAN, MANDIE IS AN IMPRESSIVE MUSICIAN, THEY EARN MY A.

>> HOW DID HE FIND THIS... >> SUMMER LONG BACK AND FORTH YOUTUBE BATTLE AND CHALLENGE AND AGAIN, YEAH, IF YOU JUST WATCH ALL THOSE CLIPS, IT'S FUN.

>> HOW ABOUT YOU, KRISTI?

>> THIS IS A HOPEFUL A.

IN RECENT INTERVIEW WITH NEW YORK TIMES JUSTICE STEVEN BREYER SEEMS TO BE THINK HOG WILL NAME HIS SUCCESSOR AND PLANNING HIS RETIREMENT ACCORDINGLY.

WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED WHEN RUTH BADER GINSBURG FAILED TO RETIRE WHEN SHE SHOULD HAVE.

BREYER SAYS I DON'T THINK I'M GOING TO STAY HERE UNTIL I DIE.

I WOULD LIKE THIS TO BE TRUE.

>> SO THAT'S YOUR HOPEFUL A AND BOB, WHO YOU ABOUT YOUR A?

>> SYRACUSE MAYOR BEN WALSH AND ONONDAGA COUNTY RYAN McMAHON FOR THEIR LETTER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN INVITING AND WELCOMING AFGHANY REFUGEES TO CENTRAL NEW YORK.

THE UNITED STATES IS A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS.

EVERYBODY WHO IS HERE CAME FROM IMMIGRANTS EXCEPT FOR NATIVE AMERICANS.

AND IT'S WHO WE ARE, IT'S WHAT WE DO.

IT'S THE RIGHT THUNK TO DO AND BRAVO TO LOCAL LEADERS INVITING REFUGEES TO COME HERE.

>> I UNDERSTAND BOTH CATHOLIC CHARITIES AND INTERFAITH WORKS ARE IN THE MAKING FOR HOSTING AS MANY AS 200 REFUGEES.

WE HAVE THAT GREAT TRADITION THAT CONTINUES.

WELL, THAT'S AS MUCH TIME AS WE HAVE TONIGHT IF YOU AGREE OR DISAGREED WITH OUR DISCUSSION, WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

AT DRESSES ARE ON THE YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU MISS A SHOW ANY FRIDAY NIGHT, IT REPEATS SATURDAY AFTERNOONS AT 5:30 OR YOU CAN FIND THE SHOW ONLINE ANY TIME AT WCNY.ORG.

GOOD NIGHT.

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