>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Jeff: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, TRACKING DOLLARS IN THE RACE FOR D.A.

TWO JOURNALISTS TELL US HOW A FLIMSY STATE DISCLOSURE LAW MEANS WE KNOW MORE ABOUT ONE CANDIDATE THAN THE OTHER IN THE STATE'S MOST EXPENSIVE ELECTION CAMPAIGN.

>> Prokop: THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR DISTRICT ATTORNEY TO FILE THESE FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENTS, BUT DISTRICT ATTORNEY INCUMBENTS HAVE TO.

>> Jeff: AND COMMUNITY ORGANIZING IN LAS CRUCES.

A PUSH FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM AT THE STATE'S BORDER IS AS DIFFICULT TO NAVIGATE TODAY AS IT WAS NEARLY TWO DECADES AGO.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK, I'M EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR.

IT'S MAY, AND THAT MEANS COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY GRADUATION SEASON.

AT SAINT JOHN'S COLLEGE IN SANTA FE, OFFICIALS HAVE CREATED A DATABASE OF THE THOUSANDS OF PUBLISHED WORKS FROM THE SCHOOL'S FORMER STUDENTS.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY'S SHOW CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SPEAKS TO A FORMER HEAD OF SAINT JOHN'S AND TWO ALUMNI ABOUT THE WORK THEY HAVE DONE SINCE THEIR TIME AT THE COLLEGE.

AND ABOUT THE BENEFITS AND DRAWBACKS OF A FORMAL LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION.

AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO IN ALBUQUERQUE, MEANWHILE, DAYS AFTER STUDENTS DONNED THEIR CAPS AND GOWNS, RIOT COPS DESCENDED ON THE DUCK POND IN THE MIDDLE OF CAMPUS TO ORDER THE DISMANTLING OF THE PALESTINE SOLIDARITY ENCAMPMENT.

AND FOR THE SECOND TIME IN AS MANY WEEKS, POLICE MADE SEVERAL ARRESTS.

WE'LL HAVE MORE ON THAT AT THE END OF THE SHOW.

ALSO THIS WEEK, WE PICK UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF IN MY CONVERSATION WITH LAS CRUCES-BASED COMMUNITY ORGANIZER SARAH SILVA.

I WANTED TO KNOW HOW COMMUNITY ORGANIZING EFFORTS ARE RELEVANT TO LIVE HERE IN NEW MEXICO AND IN AMERICA MORE BROADLY IN 2024.

BUT FIRST, LET'S SHIFT OUR ATTENTION TO NEXT MONTH'S PRIMARY ELECTION AND A RACE THAT IS NOW THE MOST EXPENSIVE IN THE STATE THIS CYCLE.

ON JUNE 4th, BERNALILLO COUNTY VOTERS WILL DECIDE WHETHER TO KEEP APPOINTED INCUMBENT SAM BREGMAN AS THEIR DISTRICT ATTORNEY, OR ELECT CHALLENGER DAMON MARTINEZ FOR THE JOB.

BOTH CAMPAIGNS HAVE RAISED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IN DONATIONS, BUT THANKS TO A LOOPHOLE IN OUR STATE'S DISCLOSURE LAWS ONLY INCUMBENTS LIKE BREGMAN MUST DISCLOSE THEIR PERSONAL INCOME AND POTENTIAL CONFLICTS.

OF NOTE, WHOEVER WINS THE PRIMARY WILL BE THE D.A.

IN BERNALILLO COUNTY FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

THAT'S BECAUSE THERE IS NO REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE RUNNING IN THE NOVEMBER GENERAL ELECTION.

LAST WEEK, SOURCE NEW MEXICO REPORTERS DANIELLE PROKOP AND PATRICK LOHMANN SHINED A LIGHT ON THE FLAWS IN THIS ELECTION TRANSPARENCY LAW AND ASKED THE MARTINEZ CAMPAIGN WOULD FOLLOW IN BREGMAN'S FOOTSTEPS.

THEIR RESPONSE, QUOTE, "WE'RE NOT SAYING THAT WE'RE NOT DOING IT."

END QUOTE.

TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS RACE AND OTHER DISTRICT ATTORNEY CONTESTS AROUND THE STATE, I SAT DOWN WITH DANIELLE AND PATRICK.

PAT, DANI, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> Prokop: THANK YOU.

>> Lohmann: THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Jeff: LAST WEEK, SOURCE NEW MEXICO PUBLISHED YOUR STORY UNDER THE HEADLINE, THE BLIND SPOT AND THE STATE'S MOST EXPENSIVE ELECTION SO FAR THIS YEAR.

DANI, HOW DID Y'ALL GET STARTED ON THE REPORTING FOR THIS STORY, AND WHERE DID IT TAKE YOU THAT YOU DIDN'T EXPECT?

>> Prokop: THANKS, JEFF.

YEAH, WE STARTED BECAUSE WE WANTED TO LOOK AT THE MOST EXPENSIVE RACE WITHIN THE STATE RIGHT NOW.

AND THAT IS THE SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT FOR BETWEEN INCUMBENT SAM BREGMAN AND CHALLENGER DAMON MARTINEZ.

AND IT TOOK US IN PLACES WE DIDN'T EXPECT BECAUSE WE STARTED JUST ASKING BASIC QUESTIONS.

JUST TRYING TO WRITE ONE LINE IN THE STORY ON FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES AND IT TOOK US ON A WHOLE JOURNEY.

>> Jeff: TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE FIRST COUPLE STEPS IN THAT JOURNEY, AND THEN I WANT TO GET INTO SORT OF WHAT'S REQUIRED AND WHAT'S NOT.

>> Prokop: CERTAINLY, IT STARTS WITH WHAT'S PUBLIC.

AND THAT'S ALL FOUND ON THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE INFORMATION SYSTEM OR CFIS, WHICH IS A DEPOSITORY OF ALL OF THESE PUBLIC DOCUMENTS WHEN IT'S CAMPAIGN FINANCE SPENDING OR THESE THINGS CALLED FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENTS.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE ENTERED INTO A BIT OF A THORNY QUESTION ON WHETHER OR NOT CANDIDATES FOR DISTRICT ATTORNEY MUST FILE -- THEY ALL HAVE TO FILE CAMPAIGN FINANCE DOCUMENTS, BUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY FILE FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENTS.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE RAN INTO A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

SO, PAT, WHAT WAS THE QUESTION?

WHAT'S REQUIRED OF WHO WHEN IT COMES TO THESE DISTRICT ATTORNEY RACES?

AND MAYBE LET'S START WITH WHAT IS A FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE FORM.

WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO GO IN THERE?

>> Lohmann: RIGHT, YEAH.

WELL, THEY CONTAIN A VARIETY OF FIELDS ON INFORMATION THAT COULD BE RELEVANT TO VOTERS.

ONE OF THEM IS, YOU KNOW, WHERE DOES YOUR INCOME COME FROM.

IF YOU'RE CURRENTLY IN OFFICE, THERE'S ALSO A FIELD FOR WHERE DID YOU GENERATE ANY INCOME OVER $5,000 OUTSIDE OF YOUR MAIN JOB.

YOU LIST YOUR SPOUSE'S NAME AND THEIR INFORMATION.

YOU LIST REAL ESTATE YOU OWN OUTSIDE OF YOUR HOME.

ANY APPOINTMENTS TO BOARDS OR COMMITTEES.

ANYTHING ELSE THAT, LIKE, MIGHT NOT JUST BE PUBLIC AS WE LEARN ABOUT CANDIDATES IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE.

IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR CANDIDATES TO LIST MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THEMSELVES AND HELP VOTERS MAKE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN SOME OF THEIR POLICY PRIORITIES, SOME OF THEIR CONNECTIONS AND SOME OF THEIR DONORS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE LOOK AT SAM BREGMAN'S FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENT, HE MENTIONS THE FACT THAT HE WAS ON THE RACING COMMISSION BOARD.

AND THEN WE LOOK AT HIS FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES AND DISCOVER THAT HE'S RECEIVED UPWARDS OF $25,000 FROM CORPORATIONS INVOLVED IN RACING AND INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE ASSOCIATED -- >> Jeff: MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION, RIGHT?

>> Lohmann: RIGHT, EXACTLY.

EXACTLY.

SO, WE -- DANI, WAS CURIOUS WHY CAN'T WE FIND DAMON MARTINEZ'S PERSONAL INCOME DISCLOSURE.

WE ALSO NOTED AS WE'RE GOING THROUGH RECORDS THAT HE LOANED HIMSELF MORE THAN HALF OF THE AMOUNT OF MONEY HE IS USING FOR HIS CAMPAIGN.

WHICH MAKES HIM THE SECOND HIGHEST FUNDRAISER IN THE STATE, BEHIND SAM BREGMAN.

HE'S GOT A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN $330,000 AT THIS POINT.

>> Jeff: AND OVER HALF OF THAT COMES FROM PERSONAL LOANS FROM HIMSELF?

>> Lohmann: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Prokop: $177,000 OF THAT.

AND WHAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM NOT FILING A FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENT.

WHAT WE FOUND FROM DISCUSSIONS WITH THE STATE ETHICS COMMISSION, OR THE INFORMATION FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE, WE FOUND THAT THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR DISTRICT ATTORNEY TO FILE THESE FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENTS, BUT DISTRICT ATTORNEY INCUMBENTS HAVE TO.

BECAUSE THEY'RE CONSIDERED STATE AGENCY HEADS.

WHICH IS THIS REALLY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION.

BUT BECAUSE THIS ISN'T CONSIDERED A STATEWIDE POSITION, THE CANDIDATES THEMSELVES DON'T HAVE TO.

SO, WE KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT HALF OF THE CANDIDATES RUNNING IN THESE RACES THAN THE CHALLENGERS.

>> Jeff: AND I WANT TO GET TO THAT IN JUST A SECOND.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THIS REALLY REMINDS ME OF IS THE CAPITAL OUTLAY SITUATION WITH THE LEGISLATURE, RIGHT?

WHERE THEY'RE NOT REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THE INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS THEY USE CAPITAL OUTLAY MONEY FOR, BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT NEW MEXICO IN DEPTH FOR YEARS HAS TRIED TO GET THEM TO DISCLOSE THOSE, AND OVER TIME THEY HAVE GOTTEN SOME OF THEM TO DO IT AND SOME OF THEM NOT TO DO IT.

SO THE QUESTION SORT OF BECOMES DO YOU WANT TO JUST EKE OVER THE LOW BAR OF STATUTORY REQUIREMENT, OR DO YOU WANT TO TAKE AN ADDITIONAL STEP TOWARD VOTER TRANSPARENCY.

SO TO THAT END, PAT, I WANT TO TALK SOME ABOUT THE BACK AND FORTH YOU HAD WITH DAMON MARTINEZ'S CAMPAIGN AS YOU GOT DEEPER INTO THE REPORTING.

YOU ASKED THEM IF THEY WERE INTERESTED IN DISCLOSING, RIGHT?

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> Lohmann: RIGHT, YEAH.

WE JUST THOUGHT ONCE YOU CLEAR ALL THIS UP -- YOU DON'T HAVE TO, YOU'RE NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED TO SUBMIT A FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE, BUT WHY CAN'T YOU JUST TELL US THIS INFORMATION THAT GIVE US A BIT OF A SENSE OF WHERE THESE LOANS MIGHT BE COMING FROM, ANY OTHER POTENTIAL CONFLICTS AS WE'RE GOING THROUGH OUR CAMPAIGN FILINGS.

SO WE DID SEND AN EMAIL ASKING FOR MARTINEZ TO -- AND HIS CAMPAIGN, TO EITHER PROVIDE US THE INFORMATION OF THE FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE WITHIN A 24-HOUR PERIOD OR AT LEAST COMMIT TO PROVIDING THAT BY THE END OF THE WEEK, KNOWING THAT IT MIGHT BE DIFFICULT TO DRAW ALL THIS INFORMATION TOGETHER BY DEADLINE.

WE EXCHANGED A COUPLE OF EMAILS.

AND THEN ULTIMATELY HIS CAMPAIGN MANAGER REACHED OUT TO OUR BOSS, SHAUN GRISWOLD, WHO HAD A TESTY ON-THE-RECORD CONVERSATION ABOUT US ASKING.

AND THEY JUST KIND OF FELT LIKE WE WERE HOLDING MARTINEZ TO A HIGHER STANDARD THAN THE LAW REQUIRED.

WHICH IS TRUE.

AND MAYBE, LIKE ZEROING ON THAT RACE, RATHER THAN HOLDING ALL OF THE OTHER CANDIDATES ACROSS THE STATE TO THAT STANDARD.

IN FACT, WE DID REACH OUT TO EVERY DISTRICT ATTORNEY CANDIDATE AND ASKED THEM TO PROVIDE A DISCLOSURE.

WE WOULD LIKE TO RE-UP THAT REQUEST NOW AND SEE IF THEY WOULD BE WILLING, YOU KNOW, SEND THEM OUR WAY OR YOU CAN FILE THEM ON CFIS.

AS OF YET, WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN ANY FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES FROM ANY CANDIDATE INCLUDING DAMON MARTINEZ.

>> Jeff: AND I WANT TO GET TO WHAT YOU FOUND AROUND THE REST OF THE STATE IN A MOMENT AS WELL.

AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT SOMEBODY AT THE TABLE SAYS NO ONE IS ACCUSING DAMON MARTINEZ OF BREAKING THE LAW, OR NECESSARILY EVEN SOME SORT OF AN ETHICAL BREACH.

SO, THAT'S OUT THERE AT THIS POINT.

I WANT TO GET TO A QUESTION ABOUT WHY THIS SHOULD MATTER TO VOTERS, RIGHT?

SO, DANI, WHAT ARE THE STAKES OF THIS KIND OF SECRECY?

>> Prokop: THIS MATTERS TO VOTERS BECAUSE KNOWING WHO IS IN THE ROOM WITH THE CANDIDATES IS ONE OF THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS WE'RE TRYING TO ANSWER, RIGHT?

WHO IS DONATING TO THEM AND WHY ARE THEY DOING SO.

THIS WAS ABLE FOR US TO HAVE A BETTER CONVERSATION WITH CANDIDATES ABOUT THE MONEY THAT THEY'RE RECEIVING.

WE ASKED SAM BREGMAN, THESE WERE FELLOW MEMBERS OF THE RACING COMMISSION WHO DONATED SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF MONEY.

THERE WAS SEVERAL RACING CORPORATIONS WHO ALSO DONATED MONEY.

WHY, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

HE TOLD US THESE ARE LAW-ABIDING FOLKS WHO KNOW ME PERSONALLY, WHO WOULD KNOW THAT I'M DOING A GOOD JOB AND I WILL DO A GOOD JOB AS YOUR DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

AND SO THAT ALLOWS US TO ACTUALLY START TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHO IS TRYING TO GIVE MONEY AND POTENTIALLY GIVE INFLUENCE, OR TO DIRECT THE CONVERSATION ON WHO IS GOING TO BECOME THE NEXT DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN THE STATE'S LARGEST CITY.

>> Jeff: AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE DON'T GET TO DO WITH DAMON MARTINEZ, RIGHT?

WE DON'T GET TO ASK THAT QUESTION BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THE MONEY IS COMING FROM.

SO I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ROLE OF DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.

AND I'LL GO WITH YOU A LITTLE BIT ON THIS ONE, PAT.

SO, THEY PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE, OBVIOUSLY, IN EVERY COMMUNITY IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

THEY SEEK JUSTICE FOR CRIME VICTIMS.

THEY MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHETHER PEOPLE'S FREEDOMS SHOULD BE TAKEN AWAY.

AND IN THIS STATE RIGHT NOW AND IN THIS CITY RIGHT NOW, THEY HAVE A HUGE OUTSIZED VOICE IN SORT OF SHAPING THE NARRATIVE AROUND CRIME AND SAFETY.

SO, I'M CURIOUS, DOES THIS LOOPHOLE IN THE LAW THAT YOU FOUND AND THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY FOR THE VOTERS, DOES IT CARRY BIT OF AN EXTRA TARIFF IN THESE KINDS OF RACES BECAUSE OF THE ROLE D.A.S PLAY?

>> Lohmann: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

SO FAR, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S BEEN AN INCREASE OF DONATIONS TO D.A.

'S RACES ACROSS THE STATE.

>> Prokop: THIS IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE THIS RACE HAS BEEN.

WHEN TORREZ WAS RUNNING IN 2020, THAT TOTAL RACE -- HE WAS UNOPPOSED IN BOTH THE PRIMARY AND GENERAL, BUT THAT TOTAL RACE WAS $63,000.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT -- >> Lohmann: $800,000.

>> Jeff: LITERALLY MORE THAN TEN TIMES THAT AMOUNT.

WE'RE SEEING A HUGE INCREASE AMOUNT OF SPENDING IN THESE KINDS OF RACES.

IT'S NOT HISTORICALLY THE MOST EXPENSIVE RACE IN THE STATE, RIGHT?

>> Prokop: NO.

>> Lohmann: RIGHT.

YEAH, AND SO ALSO AS YOU KNOW WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A SPECIAL SESSION IN JULY DEALING WITH A LOT OF ISSUES AROUND CRIME AND PUBLIC SAFETY.

POTENTIALLY, A SLATE OF NEW LAWS THAT THESE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE TO IMPLEMENT IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF ATTENTION, AND THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF HEAT ON THESE RACES.

AND SO ANYTHING WE CAN DO, AND ANY INFORMATION WE CAN PROVIDE VOTERS ABOUT MAKING THIS REALLY IMPORTANT DECISION IN THIS MOMENT IN HISTORY IS GOING TO BE USEFUL FOR EVERYBODY.

>> Jeff: AND IN THIS RACE, ANOTHER THING THAT'S IMPORTANT TO MENTION HERE IS WHOEVER WINS THE PRIMARY NEXT MONTH, THAT PERSON IS GOING TO BE THE D.A.

THE REPUBLICANS DID NOT FIELD A CANDIDATE IN THIS RACE, RIGHT?

>> Prokop: THAT'S CORRECT.

>> Jeff: OKAY.

SO, INCUMBENTS ARE REQUIRED TO FILL OUT THESE DISCLOSURE FORMS.

AND I KNOW YOU ALL LOOKED AT A BUNCH OF THEM FROM AROUND THE STATE IN DISTRICT ATTORNEY RACES.

DANI, WHAT DID YOU FIND IN THOSE?

HOW COMPLETE WERE THEY?

>> Prokop: THEY WERE NOT AS COMPLETE AS WE WOULD LIKE THEM.

AND PATRICK TALKED TO A FEW MORE PEOPLE WHO CALLED HIM BACK.

AND SO WE DID LEARN, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE DISTRICT ATTORNEY DID REPORT MORE THAN $5,000 IN GAMBLING EARNINGS AND THAT OTHER -- THAT ANOTHER ATTORNEY LEFT OFF A PROPERTY THAT HE OWNED AND SORT OF NOTED THAT IN A CONVERSATION WITH PATRICK.

SO, THERE ISN'T NECESSARILY A STANDARD FOR THESE FORMS BEING ENTIRELY COMPLETE.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW IS KIND OF THE PROBLEM WITH THESE.

>> Jeff: WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ENFORCING THAT?

DO WE KNOW WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE MINDING THE STORE IN TERMS OF HOW COMPLETE THOSE FORMS ARE?

>> Lohmann: I THINK THERE'S A BIT OF A TENSION AT THE MOMENT.

I'M STILL SEEKING SOME CLARITY AND WANT TO DO SOME MORE REPORTING ON THAT.

BUT THE SECRETARY OF STATE DOES KEEP AN EYE ON IT.

THE ETHICS COMMISSION I THINK HAS BEEN ASKING THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE FOR PERMISSION, AT LEAST IN ACCORDING TO SOME OF THE RECORDS I'VE SEEN, TO GO AFTER SOME OF THE PEOPLE.

BUT I THINK IT DOES KIND OF FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS.

THE CONVERSATIONS I HAD WITH CANDIDATES -- ONE CANDIDATE FILED BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE WAS REQUIRED TO WHEN HE WASN'T UNDER THE LAW.

HE'S ALSO A TRANSPARENT GUY, IS WHAT HE SAID.

AND JACK FORTNER, A REGENT, FILED ONE BECAUSE HE IS A REGENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

>> Jeff: HE'S RUNNING UP IN FARMINGTON, RIGHT?

>> Lohmann: THAT'S RIGHT.

AND I ASKED HIM -- HE BASICALLY SUBMITTED A FORM THAT HAD A SIGNATURE AT THE BOTTOM AND NOTHING ELSE.

AND YOU KNOW, I ASKED HIM ON THE PHONE, DID YOU FILL THIS OUT.

AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, IT ONLY TOOK A FEW MINUTES OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I ASKED HIM HOW MUCH BRAIN SPACE THESE THINGS TEND TO TAKE, AND HE SAID, NOT MUCH.

I SAID, AND YOU SAY YOU DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER PROPERTIES.

HE SAID OH, I GUESS THAT'S TRUE.

I HAVE A HOME IN ALBUQUERQUE THAT I TRAVEL TO.

WHICH WASN'T ON THE FORM.

YOU KNOW, HE TRAVELS BACK AND FORTH TO ALBUQUERQUE A LOT.

SO, YOU CAN SEE MAYBE WHY THAT WAS AN OVERSIGHT.

BUT ULTIMATELY, HE JUST SUGGESTED THESE WERE THINGS HE DIDN'T REALLY TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.

AND THAT WAS THE SENSE I GOT FROM LOT OF OTHER DISTRICT ATTORNEYS, TOO.

SO, THERE HAS BEEN A GAP IN ENFORCEMENT, HISTORICALLY.

GOING BACK TO, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST TEN YEARS.

AND FIGURING OUT -- DETERMINING WHO SHOULD FILL THESE OUT, AND HOW COMPLETELY THEY FILLED THEM OUT, AND WHETHER THEY'RE ACCURATE OR NOT.

>> Jeff: GO AHEAD, DANI, PLEASE.

>> Prokop: I ALSO THINK THAT IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS IS PART OF THIS ISSUE.

WHAT IS A DISTRICT ATTORNEY?

IT'S TECHNICALLY A SATEWIDE OFFICE.

IT'S OFTEN CHARACTERIZED AS A STATEWIDE OFFICE.

IT'S NOT PART OF THE JUDICIAL BRANCH EVEN THOUGH THEY RECEIVE THEIR APPROPRIATIONS UNDER THE JUDICIAL BRANCH.

SO IT DOES KIND OF RAISE THESE QUESTIONS OF THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE HELD TO STANDARDS THAT, SAY, THE BERNALILLO COUNTY DOES WHEN IT ASKS ITS GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES TO DISCLOSE GIFTS, OR OTHER DONATIONS.

IT'S NOT HELD TO THE STANDARDS WITHIN, LIKE, ASKING OF JUDGES, RIGHT, FOR JUDGES TO DISCLOSE GIFTS UNDER THE JUDICIAL BRANCH.

I THINK THERE'S ALSO THAT PIECE, TOO.

WHERE IT'S BOTH A STATEWIDE OFFICE AND NOT A STATEWIDE OFFICE.

IT FALLS THROUGH A LOT OF CRACKS.

>> Jeff: WITHOUT ANY QUESTION THOUGH, THIS IS A STATEWIDE ISSUE.

YOU ALL DISCOVERED THAT THIS LOOPHOLE OR GAP IN THE LAW APPLIED TO RACES ALL OVER THE STATE.

AND AGAIN, THESE ARE RACES THAT ARE DRAWING INCREASING ATTENTION AND INCREASING SPENDING, RIGHT?

THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T JUST MATTER TO PEOPLE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

>> Prokop: EXACTLY.

I MEAN THERE'S FIVE CANDIDATES TOTAL IN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY RACE IN DONA ANA.

SO, I MEAN, IT'S GETTING BIGGER, I THINK.

>> Lohmann: AND THEY AREN'T JUST -- LIKE IN BERNALILLO COUNTY, THAT'S WHAT THE SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT IS, BUT THERE'S MULTIPLE JUDICIAL DISTRICTS THAT COVER HUGE AREAS IN NEW MEXICO.

MULTIPLE COUNTIES.

SO, YOU'RE RIGHT, THEY ARE JUST IN BETWEEN STATEWIDE AND LOCAL ISSUE.

AND AS A RESULT THEY HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN PAID ATTENTION TO AS SOMEONE WHO SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO ISSUE -- LIKE DISCLOSE THIS INFORMATION.

>> Jeff: YEAH.

WE'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT AND I'LL LET YOU BOTH TAKE A RIP AT THIS.

WHAT ELSE ARE YOU ALL INTERESTED IN LEARNING SORT OF ABOUT THIS PROCESS AND HOW THESE RACES GET FUNDED?

>> Prokop: WELL, I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS MORE TO DIVE INTO RIGHT NOW ON FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE STATEMENTS THEMSELVES.

SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT NEED TO FILE THEM ARE STATEWIDE AND LEGISLATIVE CANDIDATES.

AND WE HAVE SOME PRETTY COMPETITIVE PRIMARIES RIGHT NOW IN THE LEGISLATIVE SIDE.

AND WE WANT TO TAKE A LITTLE BIT DEEPER DIVE ON MAKING SURE THAT ALSO STATE AGENCY HEADS, WHICH ARE REQUIRED, AND ALSO MEMBERS OF THESE BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HELPING GOVERN OUR POLICY ARE ACTUALLY MAKING THE EFFORT TO MAKE THESE FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES TO THE FULL EXTENT.

>> Lohmann: YEAH, I CERTAINLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT ENFORCEMENT AND WHO ULTIMATELY IS REQUIRED TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THESE ARE ACCURATE AND WHETHER THEY'RE FULLY COMPLETE.

AND YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S A LOT OF GRAY AREA THERE THAT I'M EXCITED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT.

>> Jeff: I'M EXCITED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT IT THROUGH BOTH OF YOUR STORIES, TOO.

AND I REALLY APPRECIATE THE WORK AND FOR BOTH OF YOU COMING TO CHOP THIS UP WITH ME TODAY.

THANKS A LOT.

>> Lohmann: THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Dr. Agresto: BUT WHAT IT DOES BEST IS IT TEACHES YOU HOW TO THINK, HOW TO SPEAK, HOW TO WRITE WITH CLARITY, WITH PRECISION, WITH GRACE.

YOU READ SOME OF THE FINEST THINGS EVER WRITTEN.

>> Jeff: THAT INTERVIEW WITH THE SAINT JOHN'S AUTHORS WILL AIR IN LESS THAN 20 MINUTES.

LAST WEEK ON THE SHOW, SARAH SILVA BROKE DOWN HER WORK AS A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER.

SHE DEMYSTIFIED A LINE OF WORK THAT HAS HAD A BAD RAP SINCE MOST AMERICANS FIRST HEARD THAT JOB TITLE DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN OF BARACK OBAMA IN 2008.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF OUR CONVERSATION, SARAH AND I DISCUSS HER WORK RALLYING PEOPLE FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM.

SARAH CUT HER TEETH AS AN ORGANIZER ON THIS ISSUE AND SHE REMAINS FOCUSED ON IT AS BOTH MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES TREAT MIGRANTS AS TOOLS FOR THIS FALL'S ELECTION.

LET'S GET IN THE WEEDS A LITTLE BIT AND TALK ABOUT WHAT THE WORK ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE.

HOW YOU DEFINE SUCCESS, WHAT HAPPENS AFTER A LOSS.

I'D LIKE TO DO THAT THROUGH A SERIES OF ISSUES OR STORIES, AND LET'S START WITH ONE THAT IS ALWAYS AT THE FORE IN YOUR PART OF THE STATE, IMMIGRATION.

HOW DOES COMMUNITY ORGANIZING FUNCTION WHEN IT COMES TO THAT ISSUE?

>> Silva: OH, MY GOSH.

I'VE BEEN WORKING ON AND WORKING WITH IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES ON IMMIGRATION SINCE I STARTED ORGANIZING.

A GROUP OF NUNS IN EL SALVADOR TAUGHT ME HOW TO DO COMMUNITY ORGANIZING.

WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE.

AND I CAME BACK, AND I WAS LIKE WHERE DO I DO THIS FULL TIME.

AND IT WAS BECAUSE WE'RE ORGANIZING COMMUNITIES IN EL SALVADOR, THE COMMUNITIES WERE MOSTLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN BECAUSE MANY OF THE MEN HAD LEFT TO FIND WORK ELSEWHERE.

AND IT WAS SEEING THAT END OF THE STORY AND COMING BACK HOME AND SEEING THE OTHER HALF OF THE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE NOW IN SAN FRANCISCO OR IN NEW MEXICO THAT WERE TELLING THE OTHER HALF AND THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY OF PEOPLE WHO IMMIGRATED TO THE U.S. AND THAT IS ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS TO DO THESE DAYS, TO ORGANIZE AROUND IMMIGRATION, BECAUSE IT'S BECOME A POLITICAL FOOTBALL.

BOTH PARTIES ARE NOW USING THIS ISSUE TO GAIN TRACTION FOR THEIR BASE, RATHER THAN SEEING AND ACKNOWLEDGING THE SUFFERING THAT HAS HAPPENED.

AND THAT CONTINUES TO HAPPEN ON THE BORDER.

RIGHT NOW, WE'RE SEEING A PRESIDENT THAT IS TREATING IMMIGRATION LIKE THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENT.

SO BIDEN AND TRUMP'S POLICIES ARE REALLY NOT THAT DISSIMILAR.

AND YET, WE CAN'T COMPEL SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO HAPPEN.

AND HE PROMISED SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

AND SO, WHEN WE WERE ORGANIZING HERE ON THE BORDER IN DONA ANA COUNTY, THE THING THAT WE WERE HOPING TO SHIFT AROUND THAT TIME WAS AROUND DREAMERS.

BECAUSE WE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO PASS THE DREAM ACT.

WHICH IS HELPING CHILDREN WHO ARE BROUGHT AT AN EARLY AGE, AT A YOUNG AGE, TO THE U.S. AND WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED TO GET THEM CITIZENSHIP, OR GET THEM ON A PATHWAY TO LEGALIZATION.

AND OBVIOUSLY IT HASN'T GONE ANYWHERE.

THERE ARE DREAMERS THAT ARE MY AGE IN THEIR 40s WHO HAVE CHILDREN AND JOBS.

AND IN SOME CASES GRANDCHILDREN, AND STILL DO NOT HAVE SOME SORT OF PERMANENT PROTECTION.

SO, WE'VE BEEN ORGANIZING AROUND THAT.

WE WERE ONE OF THE FIRST COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS COMPEL THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CREATE SANCTUARY COMMUNITIES AND TO PROTECT THE IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE BEING SOUGHT AFTER BY BORDER PATROL AND ICE.

WE'RE THE FIRST ONES IN THE COUNTRY TO HAVE A CATHOLIC INSTITUTION CREATE A SANCTUARY CITY OR SANCTUARY COMMUNITY AND PROTECT FAMILIES.

WE ALSO HELPED PEOPLE WHO WERE CAUGHT IN RAIDS AND HELPED WITH FAMILY REUNIFICATION.

AND GETTING PEOPLE TO BE THEIR OWN ATTORNEYS.

SO WE WERE TEACHING DREAMERS TO FILE THEIR OWN PAPERWORK AND NOT HAVE TO PAY THE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS FOR THEIR PERMANENT PROTECTION.

AND SO IT WAS LIKE A LITTLE BIT OF MUTUAL AID.

HOW DO WE HELP PEOPLE DIRECTLY, BUT ALSO HOW DO WE BRING THOSE PEOPLE INTO MOVEMENT SO THEY CAN TELL THEIR STORIES AND LATER, LIKE MARTIN HEINRICH, SENATOR MARTIN HEINRICH BECAME ONE OF THE CHAMPIONS AROUND THE DREAM ACT.

WHERE BEFORE HE WAS PRETTY, LIKE HE WOULD CHAMPION IT IN SMALLER ROOMS, OR IN PRIVATE, BUT NEVER REALLY HAVE THESE BIG PRONOUNCEMENTS.

AND WE HAD AN ACTION IN 2014 AND 500 PEOPLE SHOWED UP IN DONA ANA COUNTY AND HE'S LIKE OH, THIS IS HOW YOU ORGANIZE.

AND FROM THEN ON HAS BECOME A CHAMPION FOR THE ISSUE.

SO, IT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT REALLY BREAKS MY HEART BECAUSE IT'S A HARD ISSUE, WHEN I LOOK AROUND AND THERE'S VERY LITTLE POLITICAL WILL TO DO ANYTHING OF SUBSTANCE.

>> Jeff: LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT HOW YOU DO THE THING.

AND LET'S DO THAT BY CRACKING OPEN THE TOOLBOX A BIT.

WHAT ARE THE TOOLS OF THE TRADE, IF YOU'LL PARDON THE CLICHÉ, OF THE COMMUNITY ORGANIZER, AND HOW DO YOU USE THEM?

>> Silva: YEAH, SO ONE OF MY FAVORITE THINGS IS I THINK WHAT KEEPS ME IN ORGANIZING IS THAT I LOVE PEOPLE.

I THINK HUMANS ARE WEIRD AND FUNKY AND LOVELY.

LIKE, WE'RE JUST LIKE, SO CURIOUS ABOUT PEOPLE.

ONE OF THE INITIAL CHARACTERISTICS IS ARE YOU CURIOUS AND DO YOU HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS THAT YOU SEE.

AND TAKE RISKS WITH PEOPLE.

THOSE ARE THE TWO MAIN TOOLS.

IF YOU HAVE CURIOSITY AND COURAGE YOU CAN GO LOTS OF PLACES WITH LOTS OF PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY IN ORGANIZING.

SO THAT'S ONE.

BUT THEN TWO, THE ABILITY TO JUST SEE YOUR LANDSCAPE AND SAY, OKAY, THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE MINIMUM WAGE IN LAS CRUCES.

THE ISSUE WAS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WASN'T RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE.

IT WAS $7.50 HERE IN LAS CRUCES.

AND PEOPLE WERE NOT MAKING ENDS MEET.

SO WE DID SOME RESEARCH, AND WE SAID, WELL, WHO IS -- THE NARRATIVE WAS LIKE OH, IT'S TEENAGERS.

TEENAGERS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT MAKE MINIMUM WAGE.

WELL, WE MET WITH ECONOMISTS AT NMSU, AND WE MET WITH THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO AND LAS CRUCES AND WE SAID WHO IS MAKING MINIMUM WAGE.

WELL, PEOPLE COLLECT DATA ON THAT.

THE AVERAGE PERSON MAKING MINIMUM WAGE IN LAS CRUCES WAS A 30-SOMETHING-YEAR-OLD WOMAN WHO WAS THE HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD.

AND HAD TWO KIDS, APPROXIMATELY.

SO WE SAID, OH, THEY SAID 30-SOMETHING AND AT THE TIME I WAS 30-SOMETHING.

AND I WAS LIKE OH, THAT WAGE WORKER LOOKS LIKE ME IN LAS CRUCES.

AND THEN WE TOOK THE ISSUE TO THE CITY OF LAS CRUCES.

AND THEY HEMMED AND HAWED ABOUT IT AT THE CITY COUNCIL.

AND SO -- AND THERE WERE LOTS OF BUSINESSES AND CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE THAT DID NOT WANT MINIMUM WAGE TO HAPPEN.

AND WE THOUGHT LIKE WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH POWER TO KEEP TRACK OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OPPOSING THIS.

BUT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT'S HAPPENING IS FAIR.

AND SO, WE IPRA'D ALL THE CITY COUNCILORS.

IPRA IS THE PUBLIC RECORDS ACT.

INFORMATION AND PUBLIC RECORDS ACT IN NEW MEXICO.

WHICH MEANS THAT, LIKE, YOU HAVE ACCESS TO ALL THE PUBLIC DOCUMENTS.

YOU CAN REQUEST, LIKE, CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS, TEXT MESSAGES, EMAILS OF PUBLIC OFFICIALS.

WE IPRA'D ALL THE CITY COUNCILORS TO SEE WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATIONS THEY WERE HAVING AND IF THERE WAS ROLLING QUORUMS, IF THERE WERE VIOLATIONS OF THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.

BECAUSE IF IT WERE TRUE, THEN OUR ABILITY TO RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE WOULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH HARDER.

AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ILLEGAL PRACTICES BY OUR PUBLIC OFFICIALS.

SO THE FACT THAT WE IPRA'D OUR CITY COUNCIL, THEY WERE LIKE OH, THEY'RE WATCHING US.

AND SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE TOOLS WE HAD AT OUR DISPOSAL.

THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT IS ONE OF AN ORGANIZER'S BEST FRIENDS BECAUSE THAT MEANS EVERYTHING THEY'RE DOING HAS TO HAPPEN IN PUBLIC AND OUT IN THE LIGHT OF EVERYONE.

SO, THAT'S WHY THOSE SORTS OF ISSUES ARE REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME.

THINGS LIKE FINANCE RECORDS OR CAMPAIGN REPORTS.

WHO IS RAISING MONEY AND WHO IS DONATING MONEY TO CERTAIN CANDIDATES.

THAT'S HOW WE FOUND OUT THAT A LOCAL JAIL, OUR COUNTY JAIL, WAS BEING TARGETED FROM THESE BUSINESSMEN WHO WANTED TO PRIVATIZE OUR COUNTY JAIL.

THEY WERE GIVING MONEY TO SPECIFIC CANDIDATES WHO WERE RUNNING FOR SHERIFF.

AND WE KNOW THAT THEY HAD PRIVATIZED OTHER COUNTY JAILS IN LOUISIANA.

AND WE BLEW IT UP, AND WE'RE LIKE HEY, WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

DO YOU SUPPORT PRIVATIZING OUR JAILS PAUSE WE KNOW PRIVATIZING OUR JAIL MEANS MORE ABUSE, HIGHER DEATH COUNTS IN COUNTY JAILS WHEN IT'S PRIVATE.

AND AS SOON AS WE ASKED THAT QUESTION, THE ISSUE DIED.

BECAUSE SECRECY WAS ONE OF THEIR TOOLS.

AND SO I THINK BEING ABLE TO GET AS MUCH INFORMATION AND THEN MAKING IT PUBLIC AND THEN HAVING PEOPLE BEHIND IT IS ONE OF THE BEST TOOLS IN ORGANIZING.

SO ORGANIZED MONEY, ORGANIZED IDEAS, ORGANIZED PEOPLE.

IF WE'RE DOING THAT, THEN WE'RE DOING ORGANIZING REALLY WELL.

>> Jeff: I DO LOVE TO HEAR A GOOD VICTORY STORY RELATED TO THE INSPECTION OF PUBLIC RECORDS ACT.

AND I'VE ALWAYS SAID ABOUT THAT, TOO, THAT POWERFUL ACTORS ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO TELL A VERSION OF EVENTS THAT'S CLOSER TO THE TRUTH WHEN THEY DON'T THINK ANYONE'S LOOKING.

AND SO THEY DO THAT BY EMAIL AND TEXT MESSAGE WHEN THERE AREN'T A BUNCH OF ORGANIZERS OR REPORTERS SITTING IN THE ROOM.

IT'S SO GREAT TO HAVE ACCESS TO SORT OF THE PRIVATE DELIBERATIONS THAT GO INTO SOME OF THESE DECISIONS THAT IMPACT COMMUNITIES.

SO WE TALKED SOME, SARAH, ABOUT THE WAY THE WORK HAS CHANGED OVER TIME.

I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THE CHALLENGES HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME.

AND HOW STRATEGIES LOOK DIFFERENT FOR FOLKS IN YOUR LINE OF WORK THESE DAYS, THAN THEY USED TO.

>> Silva: YEAH, OH, MAN.

I DID NOT REALIZE HOW QUICKLY MUCH OF OUR PUBLIC ENTITIES WOULD FALL INTO FASCISM AND FASCISM-LITE.

THOSE WERE NOT ISSUES OR THINGS THAT I HAD TO WORRY ABOUT AS A YOUNG ORGANIZER.

OR LIKE THE EXPLICIT RACISM AND OTHER 'ISMS THAT ARE SHOWING THEMSELVES IN PUBLIC LIFE.

IT WAS MUCH MORE SUBTLE, HIDDEN OR SHOWED UP IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

AND SO, THAT FEELS LIKE WE HAVE TO BE, AS ORGANIZERS, MUCH MORE VIGILANT ABOUT THE TOOLS THAT WE USE AND HOW THEY'RE EITHER GETTING STRIPPED AWAY OR MADE MORE DIFFICULT.

SO OUR ABILITY TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF JAIL -- SO BAIL REFORM IS GETTING ATTACKED.

FOR ALL SORTS OF REASONS.

EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NON-VIOLENT OFFENDERS.

BAIL REFORM, AND GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF JAIL BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD BAIL, LIKE THAT'S THE ONLY REASON THEY'RE IN JAIL IS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO GET OUT.

BAIL FUNDS ARE NOW BEING ATTACKED.

PLACES LIKE ATLANTA WHERE IT'S COP CITY, AND IF YOU CREATE A BAIL FUND YOU COULD BE CHARGED WITH RACKETEERING OR RICO CHARGES.

BUT THAT'S SIMPLY COMMUNITY CARE.

LIKE, IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN CREATING A SOUP KITCHEN FOR PEOPLE.

IT IS A NEED THAT PEOPLE HAVE, AND SO THERE'S COMMUNITY ADDRESSING THAT NEED.

THAT IS GETTING CHIPPED AWAY.

WE SEE, EVEN IN NEW MEXICO, CITIES AND COUNTIES VIOLATING THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.

WHETHER IT'S INTENTIONAL OR NOT, JUST KNOWING THERE ARE GOVERNMENT BODIES THAT ARE NOT PRACTICING THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT TELLS ME THAT OH, THIS IS AT RISK.

AND IF WE LET THAT HAPPEN, IT'S GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING.

AND IT MIGHT KEEP HAPPENING FOR REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT COME UP, LIKE NOT JUST THE NERDY OR LESS SEXY ISSUES, BUT WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS THESE THINGS MIGHT BE VIOLATED AND IT MIGHT BE HARD TO ORGANIZE AROUND.

THOSE SORTS OF TACTICS, WE'RE SEEING MORE AND MORE.

OUR ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER IN PRIVATE WAYS.

SO OUR PRIVACY, OUR DATA, THOSE SORTS OF THINGS ARE GETTING COMPROMISED MORE AND MORE.

AND SO OUR ABILITY TO DO THAT, AND THEN ELECTIONS.

THE INTEGRITY OF THOSE SYSTEMS ITSELF ARE BEING ATTACKED.

ANYONE CAN CALL FRAUD NOW ON AN ELECTION.

AND CALL THOSE SORTS OF SYSTEMS INTO QUESTION, WHETHER THEY HAVE THE MOST INTEGRITY OR NOT.

AND SO LIKE HOW DO WE ORGANIZE AROUND THAT, AND THE MISINFORMATION THAT THEN SURROUNDS AND SWIRLS THOSE ISSUES.

THAT HAS BECOME REALLY HARD TO NAVIGATE.

AND SO WHAT'S THE ANTIDOTE TO THAT?

I WOULD SAY THE ANTIDOTE IS, AGAIN, LIKE RELATIONSHIPS.

HAVING DEEP RELATIONSHIPS WITH ACTUAL PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

I KNOW WHAT IS TRUE AND I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND THESE ARE OUR VALUES AND THIS IS WHAT WE NEED.

AND SHOWING UP CONSISTENTLY TO THOSE PUBLIC SPACES ARE THE THINGS THAT GOING TO BE THE ANTIDOTES.

AND FIGHTING THOSE FIGHTS LOCALLY.

AND NOT JUST WAITING ON SOMEONE LIKE NATIONALLY OR AT THE STATE TO COME DOWN AND FIX OUR PROBLEMS.

>> Jeff: SARAH, LAST QUESTION BEFORE I LET YOU GET OUT OF HERE.

I AM SURE THAT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN A MASSIVE HOST OF ISSUES.

BUT WHAT ARE, MAYBE, THE TOP TWO OR THREE THAT YOU'VE GOT YOUR EYE ON AS YOU CONTINUE YOUR WORK IN 2024?

>> Silva: I AM REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE, AND HOW THAT ISSUE IS BECOMING LIKE IMMIGRATION.

IT'S JUST AN ISSUE THAT GETS VOTES OR POPULARITY OR GETS PEOPLE ANGRY, BUT ULTIMATELY DOESN'T GET ADDRESSED OR RESOLVED FOR PEOPLE THAT REALLY NEED IT.

I HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS.

I HAVE TEENAGE DAUGHTERS.

AND SO REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE AND ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH AND BODILY AUTONOMY IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME, FOR THEM.

SO I'M HELPING PEOPLE ON THAT FRONT AND HELPING THEM ORGANIZE.

AND LIKE HELPING MAKE OUR SPACES MORE ACCESSIBLE IN GENERAL.

SO, I'M HELPING PEOPLE, NOW, I'M TRAINING PEOPLE ON HOW TO ORGANIZE ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN DIFFERENT MOVEMENT SPACES.

AND SO WE'RE WORKING ON REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE.

I THINK ABOLITION AND THE INCREASING NEED TO CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE TRYING TO GET THEIR NEEDS MET IS ANOTHER REALLY IMPORTANT THING.

SO RENTS ARE ON THE RISE EVERYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY.

PEOPLE ARE NOT ABLE TO AFFORD A PLACE TO LIVE, AND THE SUPREME COURT RIGHT NOW IS DEBATING WHETHER THEY -- WE AS A COUNTRY CAN CRIMINALIZE HOMELESSNESS.

RATHER THAN SAYING, WHAT ARE THE ROOT CAUSES.

ONE BEING THAT CORPORATIONS ARE BUYING UP SINGLE FAMILY HOMES FASTER THAN SINGLE FAMILIES CAN.

SO, I'M REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT HOW WE CONTINUE TO POLICE AND CRIMINALIZE OUR COMMUNITIES FOR TRYING TO GET THEIR NEEDS MET.

BECAUSE POLICE WILL NOT MAKE US MORE SAFE.

MORE POLICE WON'T MAKE US MORE SAFE.

MORE GUNS WILL NOT MAKE US MORE SAFE.

AND SO BEING ABLE TO ADDRESS AND HELP ORGANIZERS TRAIN THEMSELVES AROUND, WELL, WHAT'S AN ALTERNATIVE TO THAT AND HOW CAN WE SHIFT PEOPLE'S HEARTS AND MINDS AROUND THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME.

AND FINALLY, LIKE TRYING TO MAKE SPACES OR ACCESSIBLE DURING A PANDEMIC.

TALKING TO PEOPLE ABOUT CLEAN AIR AND MASKING AND RISK MANAGEMENT SO IMMUNOCOMPROMISED PEOPLE CAN BE ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS AND LEADERS IN THESE MOVEMENTS BECAUSE WE NEED EVERYONE.

AND YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SYSTEMS AND COMMUNITIES THAT NEED TO BE HEALTHY IN ORDER TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES.

A DISABLED COMMUNITY IS A COMMUNITY THAT'S EASIER TO PUSH AROUND.

THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME, AS WELL.

>> Jeff: SARAH SILVA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE CHAT AND FOR OPENING A LITTLE BIT OF A WINDOW TO THE WORK YOU DO.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> Silva: THANKS, JEFF.

THANKS FOR THE CONVERSATION.

>> Jeff: LAST MONTH, SAINT JOHN'S COLLEGE CREATED A SEARCHABLE DATABASE OF BOOKS AND WORKS PUBLISHED BY THEIR ALUMNI.

ONE OF THE LATEST BOOKS ADDED TO THE GROWING LIST IS "THE DEATH OF LEARNING."

A CRITIQUE AND A DEFENSE OF A LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION BY DR. JOHN AGRESTO, A FORMER PRESIDENT OF SAINT JOHN'S.

HIS WORK IS THE FOUNDATION FOR A DISCUSSION CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND RECENTLY HOSTED WITH DR. AGRESTO AND TWO OTHER ALUMNI, DR. PATRICIA SAUTHOFF, AND SALVATORE SCIBONA.

HERE'S GWYNETH.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU TO OUR GUESTS WHO ARE JOINING FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

MY FIRST GUEST IS DR. JOHN AGRESTO, THE FORMER HEAD OF SAINT JOHN'S COLLEGE IN SANTA FE.

A LONG-TIME COLLEGE PROFESSOR AND NOW AN EDUCATIONAL CONSULTANT.

HIS BOOK IS "THE DEATH OF LEARNING."

IT IS BOTH A CRITIQUE AND A DEFENSE OF THE LIBERAL ARTS.

SO, DR. AGRESTO, HERE IN THE UNITED STATES TOP UNIVERSITIES ARE IN TURMOIL WITH STUDENTS AND OTHERS CAMPING OUT ON CAMPUS, PROTESTING THE WAR IN GAZA, AT THE SAME TIME SCHOOLS ARE UNDER FIRE FOR ALLOWING FREEDOM OF SPEECH EVEN WHEN IT'S UGLY, HURTFUL, HATEFUL.

HOW DOES THIS TENSION OF THIS MOMENT REFLECT YOUR IDEAS ABOUT HOW EDUCATION HAS GONE WRONG?

>> Dr. Agresto: WE CAN SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON THAT QUESTION, I MUST SAY, GWYNETH.

I THINK THE SIMPLEST ANSWER IS WE'VE SORT OF FORGOTTEN WHAT AN EXPANSIVE LIBERAL EDUCATION SHOULD LOOK LIKE.

WHAT IT ENTAILS.

PART OF IT IS THE FAULT OF STUDENTS, PARENTS, THE CULTURE.

WE THINK THAT YOU GO TO COLLEGE, EVEN HIGH SCHOOL, TO GET A JOB.

TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU WANT TO BE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

WHAT A SCARY THOUGHT THAT AT 17 YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO BE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW NOW AT 78 WHAT I WANT TO BE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

I'M STILL WORKING ON IT.

SO WE HAVE THIS WHOLE CONNECTION TO UTILITY THAT DEFINES SCHOOL THESE DAYS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE WERE THOSE PURISTS IN THE LIBERAL ARTS WHO DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT UTILITY AT ALL.

THAT THE LIBERAL ARTS IS SIMPLY RAREFIED, PURELY ACADEMIC, AND I TRY TO WALK THE MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN THAT.

AND I KNOW THAT'S A TOUGH THING TO DO, ALWAYS TO WALK THE MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN THINGS.

I THINK THAT A DECENT, SOLID, LET'S EVEN CALL IT TRADITIONAL LIBERAL EDUCATION IS A GREAT -- IT'S A GREAT HELP TO YOU TO FIGURE OUT WHO YOU ARE AND WHY YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU WANT TO BE, IF POSSIBLE.

AND IT'S A GREAT HELP, A TRADITIONAL EDUCATION, TO THE COUNTRY.

LOOK AROUND.

DO WE HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND HISTORY, ECONOMICS, HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY, MOTIVATION OF HUMAN ACTIONS, THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL PRINCIPLES?

THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH BETTER WE WOULD BE IF WE UNDERSTOOD THOSE THINGS AS A PEOPLE.

INSTEAD, WE DON'T HAVE THAT.

>> Gwyneth: AS A JOURNALIST, I OFTEN WISH THAT CONSTITUTIONAL LAW WERE REQUIRED IN COLLEGE.

>> Dr. Agresto: AND THAT'S ANOTHER THING THAT HAPPENED SINCE THE MID TO LATE '80s WAS ALL THE SET COURSES, WESTERN CIVILIZATION, AMERICAN HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY, THE CLASSICS, HAVE ALL FIRST BECAME ELECTIVES RATHER THAN REQUIRED.

AND THEY WERE SIMPLY THEMSELVES SPURNED AS SOMEHOW AGAINST THE MODERN COMING AGE.

AND STUDENTS HAVE REACTED AGAINST THAT BY SAYING, IF YOU DON'T WANT ME TO STUDY, IF YOU DON'T THINK IT'S WORTH MY WHILE TO STUDY HISTORY, OR PHILOSOPHY, OR CLASSICAL LITERATURE, I'LL TAKE ACCOUNTING, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Gwyneth: WE NEED ACCOUNTANTS.

IT'S STILL APRIL.

DR. SAUTHOFF, I WANT TO COME TO YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FROM HONG KONG WHERE IT'S MIDNIGHT.

>> Dr. Sauthoff: IT SURE IS.

>> Gwyneth: WE APPRECIATE THIS SACRIFICE ON YOUR PART.

YOUR BOOK FROM OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS IS "ILLNESS AND IMMORTALITY."

IN IT YOU WRITE ABOUT A MEDIEVAL SANSKRIT TEXT, THE NETRA TANTRA.

PLEASE TELL US WHAT DOES THIS 1200-YEAR-OLD TEXT HAVE TO GIVE US ABOUT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN NOW?

I MEAN, WHAT CONNECTS WHAT YOU'RE STUDYING, LATE AT NIGHT WITH YOUR OIL LAMP, WHAT CONNECTS THAT TO THINGS THAT ARE RELEVANT TO US HERE IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Dr. Sauthoff: WELL, A LOT, ACTUALLY.

YOU KNOW, THIS BOOK CAME OUT OF MY PH.D. WORK.

SO IT IS VERY NARROW.

THAT'S JUST THE NATURE OF PH.D. WORK.

BUT THIS IS A BOOK ABOUT THE RITUALS THAT PEOPLE DID TO PREVENT ILLNESS IN THEIR RELATIVES.

THEIR FEAR OF DEATH.

THEIR HOPE OF LIVING LONG LIVES.

AND IT TIES INTO MEDICINE.

WHAT I'M STUDYING NOW SOUNDS JUST AS ARCANE, IT'S INDIAN ALCHEMY.

BUT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, EARLY PHARMACOLOGY.

I WAS JUST READING SOMETHING TODAY, A RECIPE FOR RITUAL INGREDIENT THAT IS BASICALLY A PERFUME.

IT'S THE INGREDIENTS IN THE PERFUMES AT SEPHORA.

SO WE HAVE THIS WHOLE HISTORY OF BOTANY AND RELIGION.

ASTRONOMY COMES INTO IT.

YOU HAVE TO DO RITUALS AT A CERTAIN TIME OF YEAR.

SO WE CAN SEE THESE PEOPLE WERE JUST LIKE US.

THEY WERE AFRAID OF DEATH.

THEY WERE AFRAID OF ILLNESS.

THEY'RE PRAYING WHEN PEOPLE ARE ILL.

THEY'RE TURNING TO THE GODS.

THEY'RE TURNING TO MEDICINE.

I MEAN, THEY'RE NO DIFFERENT THAN WE ARE.

THEY'RE JUST WRITING IN A LANGUAGE THAT MOST OF US CAN'T READ.

>> Gwyneth: I LOVE THAT.

I LOVE THAT.

I WANT TO MOVE TO YOU.

SALVATORE SCIBONA IS A NATIONAL BOOK AWARD FINALIST.

THE RECIPIENT OF A GUGGENHEIM FELLOWSHIP, AND HE WAS AWARDED THE $200,000 MILDRED AND HAROLD STRAUSS LIVINGS AWARD FOR HIS MOST RECENT BOOK "THE VOLUNTEERS."

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> Dr. Scibona: GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Gwyneth: YOU WERE TERRIBLE IN HIGH SCHOOL, YOU WROTE IN THE "NEW YORKER."

YOU ALMOST FAILED OUT OF SCHOOL.

AT SAINT JOHN'S, THOUGH, YOU LEARNED TO READ, YOU SAID.

AND YOU WENT ON, OF COURSE, TO THE IOWA WRITERS WORKSHOP WHICH HAS PRODUCED HALF THE NOVELS ON OUR SHELVES RIGHT NOW, AND A DOZEN PULITZER PRIZE WINNERS.

SO IT TURNED OUT OKAY.

BUT I WANT YOU TO TALK TO US ABOUT FALLING IN LOVE WITH READING.

AND HOW THAT IMPACTED YOUR TRAJECTORY.

HOW THAT GOT YOU WHERE YOU ARE TODAY.

>> Dr. Scibona: YEAH, I THINK I WENT TO SAINT JOHN'S BECAUSE -- ONE OF THE REASONS I SUCH A TERRIBLE STUDENT WAS THAT I WAS LEARNING A LOT IN FORMS THAT WERE DISJOINTED.

I WAS BEING TAUGHT LITTLE SKILLS AND LITTLE WIDGETS OF UNDERSTANDING THAT BORED ME.

AND THEN IN CERTAIN CLASSES I WAS JUST GIVEN A BOOK TO READ.

JUST THE WHOLE BOOK.

JUST READ THE WHOLE BOOK.

NOVELS, OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S MY BAILIWICK.

BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE FOR WHOM THE BOOK IS KIND OF A SACRED OBJECT.

AND I HAD NO BOOKS IN THE HOUSE GROWING UP.

WE HAD A PUBLIC LIBRARY.

BUT THERE WAS A BETTY CROCKER COOKBOOK, AND THE BIBLE.

NEITHER OF THEM WERE EVER OPENED.

BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE FOR WHOM THAT ATTACHMENT AT A CERTAIN POINT IN YOUR GROWING UP, IS A WAY TOWARD POSSIBILITIES OF EVERY KIND.

AND THE PEOPLE I WENT TO SAINT JOHN'S WITH, YOU KNOW, AS EVERYBODY -- MOST PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO PROBABLY KNOW.

THERE'S NO CLASS CHOICE THERE.

AND THE LIBERAL ARTS CURRICULUM IS REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BROAD.

YOU WOULD BE AMAZED WITH THE WORK THAT PEOPLE DO COMING OUT OF IT.

I MEAN, I'M THE FICTION WRITER.

OF MY CLOSE FRIENDS FROM THERE, ONE OF THEM, THREE OF THEM ACTUALLY BECAME ARABIC SPECIALISTS FOR THE NAVY.

ONE IS THE HEAD OF THE PHYSICS DEPARTMENT AT BARD COLLEGE.

ONE IS A Ph.D.

RESEARCHER OF THE EYEBALL.

THEY COME OUT WITH PREPARATION TO FOLLOW AN IMMENSE DIVERSITY OF STUDY.

AND ALSO WITH THE HEALTHY CURIOSITY THAT -- AND A WAY OF SORT OF -- PRACTICE OF USING THEIR CURIOSITY TO FOLLOW NEW THINGS THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT WE WERE KIND OF TOLD TO HOPE FOR, TO EXPECT.

AND I MEAN IT'S TOTALLY TRUE.

A COUPLE YEARS AGO I WENT TO ICELAND FOR THREE WEEKS TO DO A CLASS ON ICELANDIC BECAUSE I HAD FALLEN IN LOVE WITH THIS NOVELIST HALLDÓR LAXNESS WHO DIED ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO.

AND I JUST WANTED TO GET CLOSER TO THOSE BOOKS.

AND SAINT JOHN -- BECAUSE I LEARNED ANCIENT GREEK AND ANCIENT FRENCH AT SAINT JOHN'S, PART OF WHAT WE'RE LEARNING IS HOW TO LEARN A LANGUAGE.

HOW TO BREAK DOWN A LANGUAGE.

HOW TO UNDERSTAND THE STRUCTURE OF A LANGUAGE.

THAT FORM THAT'S FOREIGN TO YOU, AND ASSEMBLE IT IN YOUR MIND.

SO SINCE SAINT JOHN'S I'VE GONE AND STUDIED THREE OTHER LANGUAGES, FORMALLY.

YOU KNOW, NONE OF THOSE THINGS WERE SPECIFICALLY -- I'VE GOT NO SPECIFIC TRAINING FROM SAINT JOHN'S IN ANY OF THOSE THINGS, BUT I GOT A PERFECT TRAINING ON HOW TO LEARN THOSE.

>> Gwyneth: THAT'S A GOOD POINT.

I LIKE IT.

I WANT TO COME BACK TO DR. AGRESTO.

YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT -- I MEAN, SALVATORE, YOU JUST SAID YOU GREW UP IN A HOUSE THAT DIDN'T HAVE ANY BOOKS.

THIS WAS A TRANSFORMATIVE EXPERIENCE FOR YOU, LEARNING TO READ AND LEARNING TO LEARN, RIGHT?

AND DR. AGRESTO, YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT GROWING UP POOR IN BROOKLYN.

WHERE AS A KID YOUR BEST OPPORTUNITY WAS TO GET A TRADE AND JOIN A UNION, RIGHT?

BUT A LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION GAVE YOU EVERYTHING.

A CAREER, RECOGNITION, LEADING SAINT JOHN'S, AND THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY IN IRAQ.

BUT THE "DEATH OF LEARNING" IS ALSO A CRITIQUE OF LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION.

SO, TALK TO US FOR A MINUTE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK -- I'M HERE SITTING IN A UNIVERSITY RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?

WHAT DO WE NEED TO CHANGE TO MAKE IT WORK?

>> Dr. Agresto: PART OF IT HAS TO DO WITH BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PROMISE OF A LIBERAL EDUCATION IS.

AND AS SALVATORE WAS JUST SAYING, IT DOESN'T TELL YOU WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE, BUT GIVES YOU THE TOOLS OF BEING ALL KINDS OF WONDERFUL THINGS.

AND ALL KINDS OF EVEN PRACTICAL THINGS.

BUT WHAT IT DOES BEST IS IT TEACHES YOU HOW TO THINK, HOW TO SPEAK, HOW TO WRITE WITH CLARITY, WITH PRECISION, WITH GRACE.

YOU READ SOME OF THE FINEST THINGS EVER WRITTEN, AND YOU TAKE THEM TO HEART.

WE DON'T ALL TAKE THE SAME THINGS TO HEART.

I STILL CAN'T READ IMMANUEL KANT AND ENJOY IT VERY MUCH.

BUT I CAN READ SIMPLER THINGS.

I CAN READ JEFFERSON AND MADISON.

I CAN READ DE TOCQUEVILLE .

I CAN READ ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

I CAN'T TELL YOU -- YOU MIGHT SAY ABRAHAM LINCOLN, I HAVE LEARNED MORE ABOUT THINKING OF AMERICA AND ITS PROMISE AND ITS PROBLEMS FROM READING THE POETRY OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

THINK ABOUT THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS.

IT'S ACTUALLY A PRAYER.

FULL OF METAPHORS, FULL OF ALLUSIONS TO THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS.

AND IT HAS A KIND OF CADENCE TO IT.

I LEARNED AS MUCH FROM READING LINCOLN AS I LEARNED FROM SHAKESPEARE, WHO I THINK IS HIS 460th BIRTHDAY TODAY.

I REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST UNDERSTOOD WHAT IT MEANT THAT SHAKESPEARE WRITES HIS PLAYS IN POETRY.

THAT WAS AMAZING TO ME.

>> Gwyneth: NOW, LET ME JUST SAY, WE ARE THE FOUR OF US SITTING HERE RIGHT NOW, SORT OF SLIGHTLY OLDER WHITE PEOPLE, RIGHT?

AND IS THERE AN ELEMENT OF PRIVILEGE IN A LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION?

I WANT TO PUT THIS TO ALL OF YOU AS A QUESTION.

IS THIS AS ACCESSIBLE TODAY TO EVERYONE AS IT SHOULD BE?

I MEAN, HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO SAY TO A KID WHO IS TRYING TO CLIMB OUT OF POVERTY NOW YOU SHOULDN'T BE AN ACCOUNTANT, RIGHT?

YOU SHOULDN'T GO TO A COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

>> Dr. Agresto: WE DON'T SAY THAT TO THEM.

WE SAY LEARN ABOUT THE WORLD AND LEARN ABOUT YOURSELF.

AND LEARN ABOUT YOUR POSSIBILITIES.

AND THEN YOU WANT TO BE AN ACCOUNTANT, YOU'LL BE THE BEST ACCOUNTANT IN THE FIRM.

DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

BUT HEY, SALVATORE AND I GREW UP POOR.

I HAD NO BOOKS IN MY HOUSE EITHER.

NONE.

AND IT WAS AN AMAZING THING TO DISCOVER READING, IDEAS.

YOU HAVE TWO POOR ITALIAN GUYS HERE THAT FELL IN LOVE WITH WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE.

YOU COULDN'T BE DEADER AND WHITER THAN WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE.

>> Dr. Scibona: I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

IT IS TOTALLY A PRIVILEGE AND IT'S A PRIVILEGE THAT OUGHT TO BE AVAILABLE TO ANYBODY WHO WANTS IT.

>> Dr. Agresto: ABSOLUTELY.

>> Dr. Sauthoff: I THINK I HAVE A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON IT BECAUSE I HAVEN'T TAUGHT IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE, WELL, IT'S BEEN ABOUT 20 YEARS.

I'VE BEEN TEACHING IN INDIA, CANADA, AND NOW HONG KONG.

IN CANADA, I THINK, IS MORE LIKE THE U.S.

IT'S STILL NOT AS ACCEPTED.

BUT IN INDIA AND IN HONG KONG THERE'S A PUSH TOWARD LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION.

THEY'RE KIND OF PUSHING TOWARD THAT IDEALIZED WESTERN LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION THAT WE HAD.

SO AT MY UNIVERSITY THERE ARE GENERAL STUDIES COURSES THAT EVERY STUDENT HAS TO TAKE.

AND THEY'RE ALL LIBERAL ARTS.

SO THERE IS, GLOBALLY, I THINK IT'S STILL VERY RESPECTED IN A WAY THAT IT'S NOT BACK HOME.

AND OF COURSE, IT IS A PRIVILEGE HERE, IT WAS A PRIVILEGE FOR MY INDIAN STUDENTS, IT WAS A PRIVILEGE FOR ME.

YES, THERE IS THAT ELEMENT OF PRIVILEGE.

ESPECIALLY SOMEWHERE LIKE INDIA, OR HONG KONG, WHERE MOST OF MY STUDENTS ARE FIRST-GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENTS.

THEIR PARENTS GREW UP POOR AND THEY'RE JUST STARTING TO DO THIS.

BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES IS REALLY BEING PUSHED AS A GOOD THING WHILE IT IS IN DECLINE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> Gwyneth: SALVATORE, WE HAVE ONE MINUTE LEFT.

DID YOU WANT TO SHARE SOMETHING?

>> Dr. Scibona: WELL, YEAH.

I JUST DON'T -- I THINK THE RAP AGAINST THE LIBERAL ARTS -- THE TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE RAP RIGHT NOW HAS TO DO WITH RETURN ON INVESTMENT.

AND I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT.

IT IS A HUGE UNDERTAKING TO GO INTO DEBT, TO WORK.

LOTS OF PLACES HAVE LOOKED AT THIS PROBLEM AND NOT FIGURED OUT -- AND HAVE NOT FIGURED OUT HOW TO CRACK IT.

SAINT JOHN'S DID A REMARKABLE THING A NUMBER YEARS AGO WHERE THEY KNOCKED DOWN THE TUITION.

PARTLY BECAUSE THERE WAS A STICKER PRICE PROBLEM THAT MADE A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE IT WAS INACCESSIBLE TO THEM BEFORE THEY EVEN GOT INTO THE FINANCIAL AID PROCESS.

BUT AT A DEEPER LEVEL, THE ISSUE IS THAT WHOLE ARGUMENT THAT AN EDUCATION NEEDS TO BE ABOUT RETURN ON INVESTMENT TREATS A PERSON'S MIND AS THOUGH IT'S AN INSTRUMENT OF CAPITAL AND NOTHING ELSE.

YOU KNOW, AS THOUGH YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND MONEY ON YOUR MIND AND YOU'RE GOING TO EXTRACT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY OUT OF IT.

OF COURSE WE WANT -- A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF THAT IS NECESSARY IN LIFE.

BUT IT'S THE CORE OF WHAT THE HUMANIST EDUCATION IS FOR.

AND YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT WHAT MOST OF US ARE LIVING FOR.

WE'RE NOT REALLY LIVING FOR THAT.

A LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION IS REALLY ABOUT YOUR LIFE, MORE THAN IT'S ABOUT YOUR OCCUPATION.

YOUR OCCUPATION IS PART OF YOUR LIFE.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

>> Gwyneth: DR. PATRICIA SAUTHOFF, ONE LAST THOUGHT FROM YOU.

>> Dr. Sauthoff: ONE OF THE GREATEST THINGS I'VE GOTTEN FROM MY LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION IS THE CONTEXT.

SO WHEN I TRAVEL THE WORLD, I DON'T STUDY CHINA, BUT NOW THAT I LIVE IN HONG KONG, I'VE READ THE CLASSICS.

AND SO I HAVE THIS CONTEXT THAT SO MANY EXPATS DON'T HAVE.

I WENT TO JAPAN RECENTLY.

I'VE READ THEIR BOOKS.

SO I KNOW SOME OF THE HISTORY.

I GOT INTO THIS SO THAT I COULD TRAVEL THE WORLD WITHOUT HAVING ANY MONEY TO DO SO.

AND I'VE BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO NOW TRAVEL THE WORLD AND TAKE THAT KNOWLEDGE THAT I GOT WITH ME ON MY ADVENTURES.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU FOR THAT.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR TIME.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO GWYNETH AND THOSE THREE AUTHORS FOR A LIVELY CONVERSATION.

WE END THIS WEEK'S SHOW WITH A RETURN TO THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO CAMPUS WHERE, FOR THE SECOND TIME IN AS MANY WEEKS, POLICE ARRESTED SEVERAL PEOPLE IN CONNECTION WITH THE PALESTINE SOLIDARITY MOVEMENT IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS ON WEDNESDAY.

DEMONSTRATORS SET UP AN ENCAMPMENT AT THE UNM DUCK POND WHICH IS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF CAMPUS LAST MONTH AS A PROTEST AGAINST ISRAEL'S ONGOING WAR IN GAZA, AND UNM'S INVESTMENT IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL, ISRAELI COMPANIES, AND U.S.

WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS.

WHEN THEIR DEMANDS WERE NOT MET AFTER A WEEK AND A HALF, SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THE GROUP MARCHED TO THE STUDENT UNION ON APRIL 29th AND OCCUPIED THE BUILDING.

UNM POLICE AND NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE ARRESTED 16 PEOPLE EARLY THE FOLLOWING MORNING.

SOME WERE PEPPER SPRAYED, OTHERS WERE SLAMMED TO THE GROUND.

PROTESTERS RETURNED TO THE DUCK POND AFTER THAT, AND REMAINED THERE FOR SEVERAL DAYS.

ON TUESDAY, UNM PRESIDENT GARNETT STOKES ISSUED A STATEMENT SAYING IN PART THAT THE UNIVERSITY, QUOTE, "IS COMMITTED TO PUBLIC DISCLOSURE OF THE RESULTS OF ITS RESEARCH INTO ITS INVESTMENT PORTFOLIO BY AUGUST 2024, WHICH WAS IDENTIFIED AS A TARGET DATE BY STUDENT ADVOCATES."

END QUOTE.

THIS MARKS THE FIRST CONCESSION FROM THE UNIVERSITY SINCE THE DEMONSTRATIONS BEGAN LAST MONTH.

IN THE STATEMENT STOKES WENT ON TO ORDER THAT THE ENCAMPMENT AT THE DUCK POND ME DISMANTLED BY 5 P.M. AND THAT THE PROTESTERS LEAVE.

SHE ACCUSED THEM OF VIOLATING SEVERAL UNM POLICIES.

INCLUDING A PROHIBITION AGAINST CAMPING ON CAMPUS AND SEVERAL OTHER ALLEGED OFFENSES, LARGE AND SMALL.

THE DEADLINE CAME AND WENT, BUT AROUND 5 O'CLOCK WEDNESDAY MORNING, UNIFORMED OFFICERS AND COPS IN RIOT GEAR BEGAN TO MOVE IN.

WHAT YOU'RE SEEING HERE IS VIDEO FROM DAILY LOBO STUDENT JOURNALISTS PALOMA AND LEILA CHAPA WHO HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON THE ENCAMPMENT AND THE PROTESTS SINCE THEY BEGAN.

POLICE ARRESTED SEVEN PEOPLE THIS TIME AROUND, INCLUDING UNM STUDENTS AND ALUMNI.

LIKE THOSE ARRESTED AT THE STUDENT UNION TWO WEEKS AGO, THE SEVEN ARE CHARGED WITH CRIMINAL TRESPASS, A MISDEMEANOR.

AND MISUSE OF PUBLIC PROPERTY, A PETTY MISDEMEANOR.

ONE PERSON WAS ALSO CHARGED WITH CONCEALING THEIR IDENTITY.

THAT'S ALSO A PETTY MISDEMEANOR.

AMONG THOSE ARRESTED WERE A WELL-KNOWN LOCAL FREELANCE JOURNALIST AND HIS WIFE WHO WORKS PART-TIME AS A PHOTO JOURNALIST.

BOTH IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES TO POLICE AS REPORTERS THROUGHOUT THE MORNING, THOUGH NEITHER OF THEM WAS WEARING CREDENTIALS BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ON ASSIGNMENT FOR ANY PARTICULAR NEWS ORGANIZATION.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS STORY AS IT MOVES FORWARD.

THANKS TO ALL THE JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE HELPED US UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS PROTEST MOVEMENT ON CAMPUS.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.