>>> NEXT, BOTH PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN AND FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAVE MANAGED TO SEAL THEIR PARTY NOMINATIONS, BUT AMERICANS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE PART IN THE PRIMARY PROCESS UNTIL THE FINAL CONTESTS IN JUNE.

AS THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE HEATS UP, FORMER LONGTIME REPUBLICAN BILL KRISTOL WARNS OF THE DANGER OF A TRUMP SECOND TERM.

AND HE JOINS WALTER ICE ACTSON TO DISCUSS WHAT'S EXACTLY ON THE LINE.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

BILL KRISTOL, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

>> LET ME QUOTE SOMETHING YOU WROTE IN A COLUMN, IN WHICH YOU SAID, "THE UNITED STATES IS CLOSER TO CONSTITUTIONAL FAILURE TODAY THAN IT WAS ON JANUARY 6th."

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> WELL, I THINK THE GUARDRAILS HELD ON JANUARY 6th.

THE -- THE INDIVIDUALS HELD, TOO, MIKE PENCE, LET'S GIVE HIM SOME CREDIT.

AND, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST A GOOD CHUNK OF REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS IN THE HOUSE.

AND, OF COURSE, THE DEMOCRATS HELD AND, SO, THE SYSTEM WORKED, SORT OF, ON JANUARY 6th.

THE TROUBLE IS, ONCE TRUMP IS RENOMINATED AFTER JANUARY 6th, THERE ARE FEWER GUARDRAILS, CERTAINLY WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND IN A WAY, THE PUBLIC HAS NOW BEEN USED TO THE IDEA THAT -- WHAT DOES IT SAY WHEN THEY'RE WILLING TO RENOMINATE TRUMP AFTER JANUARY 6th?

IT SAYS THAT THEY DON'T CARE.

AND SO, IT SAYS TO EVERY REPUBLICAN OUT THERE THAT, HEY, NOT JUST REPUBLICANS, PERHAPS, YOU KNOW, GO AHEAD, TAKE A SHOT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DON'T WIN, TRY TO OVERTURN IT ANYWAY, INVENT CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AND I THINK, IN THAT RESPECT, AS I SAY, WE'RE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD, AWAY FROM THE RULE OF LAW, AWAY FROM A BASIC RESPECT FOR TRUTH, THAN WE WERE EVEN ON JANUARY 6th.

>> YOU ARE AMONG REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE LED THE RESISTANCE TO DONALD TRUMP.

NOW THAT HE'S APPARENTLY THE NOMINEE, THERE'S NO STOPPING HIM, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

>> I MEAN, I HAVE BEEN AN EX-REPUBLICAN FOR AWHILE, AND I WILL REMAIN IT FOR 2024 AND DO MY BEST TO HELP STOP DONALD TRUMP FROM GETTING A SECOND TERM AT PRESIDENT, WHICH I THINK WOULD BE MUCH MORE DANGEROUS, ACTUALLY, THAN HIS FIRST TERM, SO, I'M STILL NEVER TRUMP.

>> AND BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU SAY YOU'LL DO EVERYTHING TO STOP HIM, DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE GOING TO BE CAMPAIGNING FOR JOE BIDEN?

>> YEAH, UNLESS -- AND -- OR IF JOE BIDEN STEPS ASIDE, MAYBE A YOUNGER DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, SOMETHING I'VE BEEN PUSHING FOR A YEAR.

>> THAT'S STILL A POSSIBILITY?

>> I THINK IT'S A VERY OUTSIDE POSSIBILITY, BUT NO, BUT I'M ACTUALLY INVOLVED WITH THE REPUBLICANS VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP, WE DID THIS IN 2020, WE'LL DO IT AGAIN IN 2024 IN SWING STATES, GETTING PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN REPUBLICANS, AND IN THIS CASE, GETTING PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY VOTED FOR TRUMP BEFORE TO SAY, LOOK, I VOTED FOR HIM, MAYBE HE DID SOME GOOD THINGS, BUT WE CAN'T -- GIVEN WHAT WE KNOW AFTER JANUARY 6th, GIVEN WHAT WE KNOW WHAT HE'S SAID ABOUT WHAT HE WOULD TRY TO DO AS PRESIDENT IF HE'S IN THERE AGAIN, WE CAN'T RUN THAT RISK.

SO, HOPEFULLY WE'LL MOVE SOME SWING VOTERS IN KEY STATES WHO, YOU KNOW, ARE NOT DIE HARD DEMOCRATS, ARE NOT DIE HARD BIDEN FANS, SO, A LOT OF THEM SAY, I'M NOT CRAZY ABOUT BIDEN FOR THIS REASON OR THAT, BUT THEY HOPEFULLY WILL NOT -- WILL UNDERSTAND THE REAL DANGER OF A TRUMP SECOND TERM.

>> THE REAL DANGER OF A TRUMP SECOND TERM.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE FIRST TERM?

>> BECAUSE WHEN HE TOOK OVER IN 2017, HE WAS SORT OF DISORGANIZED, DIDN'T KNOW WASHINGTON THAT WELL.

AND THEN BROUGHT IN PEOPLE, AS HE HIMSELF HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT LATER, WHO WERE MORE ESTABLISHED REPUBLICANS WHO CONSTRAINED HIM IN SOME VERY IMPORTANT WAYS.

I'D SAY ESPECIALLY IN FOREIGN POLICY.

THE McMASTERS AND THE JOHN BOLTONS AND MARK ESPER, I MEAN, ALL OF THEM DIDN'T QUITE LET HIM DO WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

I MEAN, YOU THINK OF THE UKRAINE IMPEACHMENT, THAT YOU SEE ONE AFTER ANOTHER, FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER AND PEOPLE UP TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JOHN BOLTON SAYING, WAIT A SECOND, SIR, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

AND IT ACTUALLY DID STOP HIM FROM DOING WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

WHEN IT CAME OUT, HE GOT IMPEACHED.

NOT CONVICTED.

AND THEN IN MANY OTHER AREAS.

ONE CAN CERTAINLY NOT APPROVE OF BILL BARR'S PERFORMANCE, BUT HE WASN'T WILLING TO DO WHAT TRUMP WANTED AFTER NOVEMBER 3rd.

AND THE SAME IN OTHER PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT.

ALL OF THAT, I THINK, YOU CAN'T COUNT ON AT ALL IN THE SECOND TERM.

SOME OF THE GUARDRAILS WON'T BE THERE, THE INTERNAL ONES, SO TO SPEAK, WON'T BE THERE, OR MUCH WEAKER.

AND HE'S GOT PEOPLE AROUND HIM WHO HAVE REALLY THOUGHT THROUGH HOW TO ACHIEVE WHAT I WOULD CALL, YOU KNOW, AUTHORITARIAN VISION OF TRANSFORMING THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

MAJOR THINK TANKS AND A LOT OF MONEY, A LOT OF WORK BEING DONE, AND THEY'RE NOT BEING DONE BY -- THESE ARE NOT FOOLISH PEOPLE.

THEY MAY BE FOOLISH IN THEIR VOTES, BUT THEY'RE NOT -- >> GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF THE THINGS THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO.

>> A LOT OF THEM GOT THIS WARTED IN THE FIRST TERM, NOW THEY'RE GOING TO COME BACK WITH REAL PLANS OF HOW NOT TO BE THWARTED.

>> WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO?

>> THE THINGS TRUMP TRIED TO DO AFTER HE LOST THE ELECTION ON NOVEMBER 3rd TO JANUARY 6th, WHAT HE TRIED TO DO IN THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, WHAT HE TRIED TO DO IN THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES, I THINK THOSE ARE THINGS HE WILL TRY TO DO FROM DAY ONE.

WILL HE TRANSFORM AMERICA ON JANUARY 21st, 2025, INTO AN ORBAN-LIKE HUNGARY STATE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

NO, OF COURSE NOT.

AND WE HAVE MANY, MANY MORE STRUCTURES AND INSTITUTIONS THAT WILL SLOW HIM DOWN, SO TO SPEAK, BUT OVER A YEAR, TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS, WITH THE KINDS OF APPOINTEES HE MIGHT PUT INTO JUSTICE AND DEFENSE?

ALL THESE BARRIERS WE KIND OF TAKE FOR GRANTED.

THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS NOT GOING TO BE USED TO GO AFTER YOUR CRITICS, OR THAT CONTRACTS ARE NOT GOING TO BE GIVEN OUT IN OTHER DEPARTMENTS SIMPLY TO FRIENDS.

ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED ON THE MARGINS OF AMERICAN POLITICS FOR DECADES AND FOR CENTURIES, AND THAT WE MOSTLY PUSHED BACK SUCCESSFULLY AGAINST.

THOSE ARE THE ABUSES WE THINK OF.

THE SCANDALS, NIXON AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, NIXON TRYING TO USE THE CIA.

THOSE SCANDALS HAVE BECOME KIND OF THE ROUTINE FOR TRUMP, AND I THINK ESPECIALLY IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCIES, A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE, AS YOU KNOW, WALTER, THE CUSTOMS, SOME OF THEM ARE IN THEIR PROCEDURES AND PRACTICES, SOME OF THEM ARE EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

NOT THAT MANY OF THEM ARE REALLY LAW.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE WAYS IN WHICH GENERALS GET PROMOTED OR MADE GENERALS IN THE FIRST PLACE, GENERAL OFFICERS IN THE FIRST PLACE IN THE U.S. MILITARY, THE DEGREE TO WHICH YOU COULD CERTAINLY START PICKING TRUMP-FRIENDLY GENERALS FOR KEY POSITIONS, AND OBVIOUSLY SAME WITH THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES WITH CIVILIANS.

SO, I THINK IT'S -- IT WOULD BE A DANGEROUS SERIES OF STEPS DOWN THE ROAD AWAY FROM THE RULE OF LAW, AND AWAY FROM THE KINDS OF BARRIERS THAT WE PUT IN PLACE OVER DECADES, CENTURIES, REALLY.

CIVIL SERVICE IS SOMETHING THEY ARE TARGETING.

>> YEAH, I WOULD THINK A LOT OF TRUMP PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU.

SAY, THERE'S A DEEP STATE, THERE'S A WHOLE CIVIL SERVICE, THERE'S A WHOLE WAY THAT THE MILITARY, AND PEOPLE IN THIS DEEP STATE, HAVE THWARTED PEOPLE WHO WANT REAL CHANGE IN THIS GOVERNMENT, AND WE'VE GOT TO SWEEP THAT AWAY, THAT SEEMS TO BE THE, EITHER THREAT OR THE PROMISE OF WHAT A SECOND TRUMP TERM WOULD BE.

>> TO ME, THAT'S A DANGEROUS IDEOLOGY.

DO THINGS NEED TO BE REFORMED?

CIVIL SERVICE RULES PERFECT?

I'VE ACTUALLY SERVED IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND I'M IN FAVOR OF A LITTLE MORE FLEXIBILITY FOR MANAGERS, ABILITY TO REMOVE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T DOING A GOOD JOB, APPROPRIATE LEGAL PROCEDURES.

BUT NOT FOR THE PRESIDENT TO ARBITRARILY DECIDE, AS HE TRIED TO IN THE FIRST TERM, THINK OF THE THINGS HE TRIED TO DO, ANYONE WHO -- CERTAIN PEOPLE ARE JUST GOING TO BE SEPARATED FROM THE MILITARY BECAUSE HE DOESN'T LIKE THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

THEIR SEXUAL IDENTIFICATION.

AND THEN THEIR GENDER IDENTIFICATION.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF BARRIERS IN PLACE, JUST HAVING A PRESIDENT SNAP HIS FINGERS AND FIRE PEOPLE FROM CIVIL SERVICE OR FROM MILITARY SERVICE.

BUT AGAIN, IF THEY GET TO WORK ON THAT ON JANUARY 21st, 2025, YOU KNOW, A FEW MONTHS LATER, THEY CAN REMOVE A LOT OF THOSE BARRIERS.

>> THAT'S WHAT TRUMP SORT OF SAID WHEN YOU MENTIONED VIKTOR ORBAN, THE AUTHORITARIAN LEADER IN HUNGARY, COMES DOWN TO MAR-A-LAGO LAST WEEK AND TRUMP SAID, I WANT TO BE THAT WAY.

I WANT TO JUST ORDER.

HE ORDERS AND HE GETS THINGS DONE.

ISN'T THERE A DESIRE IN THIS DAY AND AGE AROUND THE WORLD FOR SOME STRONGER LEADERS, GIVEN THE DYSFUNCTION OF THIS DEMOCRACY?

>> THERE ABSOLUTELY IS, AND THERE ARE ELECTIONS AFTER ELECTIONS, AND SOME AUTHORITARIANS DO WELL, SOMETIMES, FORTUNATELY, THEY DO LOSE, AS HERE, 2020, BUT THE DYSFUNCTION IS NOT SOLVED BY DICTATORSHIP OR BY ARBITRARY RULE.

THAT MAKES THINGS EVEN WORSE.

THERE ARE -- ONE OF THE WORST THINGS ABOUT THE WHOLE -- ABOUT TRUMP, TRUMP MAKES IT HARDER TO PURSUE SENSIBLE REFORMS, BECAUSE HONESTLY, ONE HAS TO DEFEND THE STATUS QUO AGAINST THESE KINDS OF ATTEMPTS AT ARBITRARY POWER, BUT THE STATUS QUO DOES NEED TO BE REFORMED.

TO BE FAIR, JOE BIDEN HAS DONE A FAIR AMOUNT OF REFORMING, HE'S PURSUED A PRETTY ACTIVIST AGENDA, HE'S GOTTEN A LOT OF STUFF THROUGH CONGRESS, SO, IT'S NOT AS IF WE'VE ENTIRELY SEEN DYSFUNCTION IN THE BIDEN ERA, AND HE'S GOT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, LET'S SAY, FOR AID IN UKRAINE AND FOREIGN POLICY, AND THERE IT'S TRUMP HIMSELF, AND MIKE JOHNSON, HIS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, WHO IS STOPPING A POLICY THAT HAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT OF HELPING UKRAINE AGAINST PUTIN GET THROUGH.

SO, YOU KNOW, THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT THE DYSFUNCTION, BUT WHEN THEY ADD TO THE DYSFUNCTION.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT UKRAINE QUITE A BIT, AND I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN VERY STRONG IN OUR NEED TO STAND -- TO STAND AS STALWARTS WITH UKRAINE.

YOU THINK THAT CAN BE AN ELECTION ISSUE?

>> THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM, AS YOU KNOW, IS AMERICAN VOTERS DON'T VOTE ON FOREIGN POLICY, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE COLD WAR, THEY DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT AND SO FORTH.

I WOULD SAY, I DON'T QUITE AGREE WITH THAT IN GENERAL, BUT I REALLY THINK THAT MIGHT NOT BE THE CASE THIS TIME.

I DO THINK PEOPLE HAVE A SENSE THAT WHAT FEBRUARY 24th, 2022, WAS THE BEGINNING, PERHAPS, OF A NEW INTERNATIONAL ERA, OR, AT LEAST A CHALLENGE, TO ANY HOPE FOR A SORT OF STABLE AND, YOU KNOW, FREEDOM-FRIENDLY INTERNATIONAL ORDER.

I WAS TALKING WITH SOMEONE VERY CLOSE TO NIKKI HALEY THE OTHER DAY, THIS PERSON SAID THAT SHE, GOVERNOR HALEY, WAS SURPRISED HOW MUCH VOTERS RESPONDED TO HER ON UKRAINE, AND ON FOREIGN POLICY.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE MANY DIFFERENCES SHE HAD WITH TRUMP, AND HAS WITH TRUMP.

AND SHE WOULD SORT OF MENTION IT IN THE LIST OF DIFFERENCES THAT SHE HAS, YOU KNOW, TRUMP'S CHARACTER IS A PROBLEM, HE SPENT TOO MUCH MONEY AND THE DEFICIT.

THE THING PEOPLE HAD THE SENSE OF, IS WHAT TRUMP SAID ABOUT NATO, WHAT HE'S DONE IN TERMS OF HIS COURTSHIP OF PUTIN AND APPROVAL OF DICTATORS.

THAT THAT REALLY, FOR, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENTS CAN MAKE A LOT OF OTHER MISTAKES, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING, ONCE THAT UNRAVELS, YOU CAN'T PUT IT BACK TOGETHER.

AND THAT'S AN AREA THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SO MUCH POWER, IT'S A LITTLE HARDER FOR CONGRESS TO STOP HIM.

IT'S NOT LIKE OPPOSING A SPENDING BILL THAT DOESN'T GO THROUGH.

SO, ANYWAY, I THINK FOREIGN POLICY COULD BE MORE OF AN ISSUE IN THIS CAMPAIGN THAN PEOPLE HAVE EXPECTED, AND JOE BIDEN BEGAN HIS STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH LAST WEEK WITH UKRAINE, RIGHT?

>> YOU WERE A LEADER IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF RONALD REAGAN AND GEORGE H.W.

BUSH AND DAN QUAYLE.

HOW DID THAT REPUBLICAN PARTY, A LARGE PART OF IT, BECOME THE PRO-RUSSIA, PRO-PUTIN PARTY?

>> I MEAN, I THINK TRUMP IS THE MAIN ANSWER.

HE WON THE NOMINATION.

THAT, AND I THINK MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN ABERRATION, WHAT COULD HAVE GOTTEN BEYOND THAT, THAT HE WON THE ELECTION.

THEN HE WAS PRESIDENT FOR FOUR YEARS.

WON RENOMINATION.

THEN HE LOST, THEN HE LIED ABOUT THE ELECTION, OR TRIED TO OVERTURN IT, JANUARY 6th HAPPENED, AND NOW HE'S THE NOMINEE AGAIN.

IT'S REALLY ASTOUNDING, HONESTLY, IF YOU STEP BACK AND THINK ABOUT THAT, BUT IT MEANS IT'S HIS PARTY.

I MEAN, NO ONE CAN SAY AFTER THREE STRAIGHT NOMINATIONS THAT, OH, MY GOD, WHERE IS THE OLD REPUBLICAN PARTY?

>> LET ME ASK DEEPER -- WHY?

WHY HAS THE PARTY DONE THAT?

IT'S NOT JUST HIM, IT'S THE VOTES IN ALMOST EVERY PRIMARY.

>> I THINK WHAT ELECTED TRUMP, HE DID HAVE THIS SET OF AMERICA FIRST VIEWS.

AND I THINK THE FACT THAT NEITHER PARTY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA REALLY AFTER ROMNEY'S DEFEAT, I GUESS, IN 2012, DID MUCH TO MAKE THE CASE FOR AMERICAN WORLD LEADERSHIP.

WE WERE TIRED AFTER AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ AND ALL THAT, PRESIDENT OBAMA DIDN'T DO WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO IN SYRIA.

WE GOT KIND OF USED TO, AS A COUNTRY, SAYING, WELL, THESE PROBLEMS ARE TOO HARD FOR US TO DEAL WITH.

I THINK THAT MADE IT A LITTLE EASIER FOR TRUMP TO MAKE HIS AMERICA FIRST CASE, OR TO SELL THAT TO PEOPLE.

AND HERE WE ARE.

NOW, TO HIS CREDIT, I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS REALLY FORCEFULLY RESISTED THAT, AND HAS DONE SO PRETTY EFFECTIVELY.

>> HE GAVE A VERY FIERY STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH.

DO YOU THINK THAT WAS EFFECTIVE, OR DO YOU THINK THAT A SORT OF CALMER MESSAGE SHOULD BE THE MESSAGE FOR THE CAMPAIGN?

>> I THINK IT WAS PRETTY EFFECTIVE.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WILL CHANGE THINGS FUNDAMENTALLY.

ONE SPEECH CAN KIND OF GO PRETTY FAST.

BUT NO, I THINK HE'S RIGHT TO REALLY PUT THE STAKES OUT THERE, AND THAT'S WHAT HE DID AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SPEECH WITH UKRAINE AND WITH JANUARY 6th.

THEN HE GOT INTO HIS MORE STANDARD, YOU KNOW, STATE OF THE UNION LAUNDRY LIST.

BUT I THINK HE NEEDS TO MAKE PEOPLE -- LOOK, HE NEEDS THE VOTES OF SOME PEOPLE WHO AREN'T LOYAL DEMOCRATS, WHO HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT HIS AGE.

YOU CAN'T JUST -- SOME OF MY DEMOCRATS FRIENS THINK HE CAN OVERCOME DOUBTS BY YELLING AT THEM YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DOUBTS.

HE OBVIOUSLY ISN'T GOING TO SAY WHAT I CAN SAY, WHICH IS, GEE, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THERE WAS A YOUNGER DEMOCRAT, HE CAN SAY, LOOK, I AM WHAT I AM.

HE HAS BEEN SAYING THIS, I AM A LITTLE OLD, BUT I THINK MY EXPERIENCE STANDS ME -- PUTS ME IN GOOD STEAD, AND HERE ARE MY CORE POLICIES AND HERE'S WHY THEY'RE SO DIFFERENT FROM THOSE OF DONALD TRUMP.

HE NEEDS THE VOTES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE A LITTLE BIT HESITANT AND RELUCTANT TO VOTE FOR HIM.

>> A LOT OF THE REPUBLICANS AGAINST TRUMP, WHETHER IT BE NIKKI HALEY OR FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR, THEY SAY, YEAH, BUT BIDEN'S SO MUCH WORSE.

WHAT'S YOUR OPINION OF BIDEN, YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK THAT IT'S HARD FOR REPUBLICAN TO VOTE FOR BIDEN?

>> IT SHOULDN'T BE, REALLY.

HE'S BEEN A PRETTY GOOD PRESIDENT, AND HE'S BEEN A PRETTY MODERATE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, AOC IS NOT RUNNING THE COUNTRY, JOE BIDEN IS, AND IN FACT, THE DEMOCRATIC LEFT IS KIND OF UPSET ABOUT VARIOUS THINGS THAT BIDEN IS DOING.

HE'S MUCH MORE A HUBERT HUMPHREY DEMOCRAT THAN A LEFT WING DEMOCRAT, I THINK.

MY DOUBTS ABOUT HIM HAVE MORE TO DO WITH HOW STRONG A CANDIDATE HE'LL BE FOR RE-ELECTION.

AND THAT'S MOSTLY AGE.

BUT I THINK AS PRESIDENT, HE'S BEEN VERY MUCH IN THE TRADITION OF MAINSTREAM DEMOCRATS, AND I THINK REPUBLICANS, EVERYTHING IS SO POLARIZED AND, I GUESS THERE'S SUCH A SENSE IF YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIAL, EVEN NOT SUCH A TRUMPY ONE, TO GO ON AND ON ABOUT HOW HORRIBLE BIDEN IS, AND THE LET'S RUNNING EVERYTHING.

AND HERE'S SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE THAT'S HAPPENED ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS, AND I DON'T LIKE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, AND JOE BIDEN IS TO BLAME FOR THAT, AS IF HE RUNS THE FACULTY AT AMHERSELF OR SOMETHING.

THERE IS A KIND OF DERANGEMENT SYNDROME, I THINK, ON THE RIGHT, WHICH HAS SPILLED OVER EVEN TO SOME IN THE CENTER, I'VE GOT TO SAY, ABOUT JOE BIDEN.

>> BILL KRISTOL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS, WALTER.