REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE ARE HONORED TODAY TO HAVE AS OUR GUEST, BILL MCKIBBEN WHO IS AN ENVIRONMENTALIST AND ACTIVIST, HE IS THE CO-FOUNDER OF 350.ORG.

HE IS THE SCHUMAN DISTINGUISHED SCHOLAR AT MIDDLEBURY COLLEGE IN VERMONT, HE IS THE WINNER OF A GUGGENHEIM FELLOWSHIP AND THE LANNAN, WE IN NEW MEXICO LOVE LANNAN, THE LANNAN LITERARY AWARD FOR NON-FICTION.

ANOTHER THING BESIDES FOUNDING 350.ORG, HE IS THE FOUNDER OF A NEW MOVEMENT CALLED THIRD ACT, WHICH ORGANIZES PEOPLE OVER 60 FOR PROGRESSIVE CHANGE.

JUST A LITTLE MORE.

HE IS THE WINNER OF THE GANDHI PRIZE, THE THOMAS BURTON PRIZE, AND THE RIGHT LIVELIHOOD AWARD WHICH IS KIND OF THE ALTERNATIVE NOBEL.

SO NOW, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>>BILL: LORENE, WHAT A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU AS ALWAYS, FRIEND.

IT IS VERY, VERY GOOD TO BE BACK WITH YOU.

>>LORENE: YES, WELL YOU HAVE BEEN VERY BUSY SINCE WE LAST SAW EACH OTHER, SO TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT WHAT YOUR ENDEAVORS ARE NOW.

MAYBE, YOU JUST IN THE NEW YORKER , YOU WROTE AN ARTICLE IN DECEMBER 22, CALLED, "FROM CLIMATE EXHORTATIONS TO CLIMATE EXECUTION AND HOW THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT OFFERS A CHANCE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE."

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT?

>>BILL: SURE CAN.

IN MANY WAYS IT IS WHAT I GOT TO SPEAK ABOUT IN SANTA FE WITH THE WONDERFUL PEOPLE FROM HOME WISE AT THE ART INSTITUTE.

WE ARE IN A REALLY REMARKABLE MOMENT RIGHT NOW, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHETHER IT IS A GOOD OR A BAD MOMENT BECAUSE IT IS SOME OF BOTH.

2023 IS THE HOTTEST YEAR WE HAVE EVER RECORDED ON THIS PLANET.

THE RECORDS GO BACK WITH THERMOMETERS ABOUT 200 YEARS, BUT SCIENTISTS WERE GOOD AT USING GLACIAL CORES AND TREE RINGS AND THINGS TO RUN THEM BACK MUCH FURTHER.

THE SCIENTISTS ARE COMPLETELY CONVINCED THAT 2023 IS THE HOTTEST YEAR IN AT LEAST 125,000 YEARS, WHICH MEANS NO HUMAN SOCIETY THAT WE WOULD RECOGNIZE QUITE HAS EVER EXPERIENCED, WHETHER WE ARE EXPERIENCING OR THE CHAOS THAT COMES WITH IT, LIKE THOSE INSANE FIRES ACROSS CANADA OR THE HURRICANE THAT BLEW UP TO A CATEGORY 5 IN ACAPULCO IN 12 HOURS LAST WEEK OR ON AND ON AND ON - FILL IN THE BLANKS.

WE ARE IN A REALLY, REALLY HARD PLACE.

WHEN I WROTE THE FIRST BOOK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE BACK IN 1989, THE END OF NATURE.

REALLY 2023, WAS WHAT I WAS WARNING WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IF WE DIDN'T CHANGE OUR WAYS.

WE DIDN'T CHANGE OUR WAYS, IT HAS HAPPENED, BUT, IN AN EFFORT TO KEEP IT FROM GETTING ANY WORSE THAN IT HAS TO GET, WE HAVE ALSO GOTTEN GOOD NEWS IN 2023.

WE ARE FINALLY AROUND THE WORLD, BEGINNING TO BUILD OUT RENEWABLE TECHNOLOGY AT SOMETHING LIKE THE PACE THAT WE SHOULD BE.

BY MIDSUMMER OF THIS YEAR, THE EARTH WAS ADDING ABOUT A GIGAWATT OF SOLAR POWER EVERY DAY, THAT IS THE EQUIVALENT OF A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT'S WORTH OF SOLAR PANELS ALMOST EVERY DAY.

NOW HALF OF THAT WAS IN CHINA BUT THAT STILL A FAIR AMOUNT IN THE REST OF THE WORLD, TOO.

SO WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET OUT OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE CRISIS WITHOUT REAL, REAL DAMAGE, IT IS JUST POSSIBLE THAT IF WE DO EVERYTHING RIGHT FROM THIS POINT, IF WE KEEP RAMPING UP THE SPEED WITH WHICH WE BUILD RENEWABLE ENERGY, THEN WE MIGHT GET OUT OF IT WITH SOMETHING LIKE OUR CIVILIZATION STILL SOMEWHAT INTACT.

AND THE IRA IS ONE OF STEPS NECESSARY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

IT PUTS MONEY INTO BUILDING RENEWAL ENERGY AND FAST, FAST ENOUGH, PROBABLY NOT, BUT AT LEAST IT IS A JUMP START.

WE HAVE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO THANK FOR THAT AND SO NOW WE HAVE SOMETHING LIKE A FIGHTING CHANCE IF WE REALLY BUCKLE DOWN AND GET TO WORK.

>>LORENE: SO I AM CURIOUS AS TO WHY IT WAS INCLUDED IN SOMETHING CALLED "THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT."

WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN REDUCING INFLATION AND ACTIVELY MITIGATING THE DANGERS OF CLIMATE CHANGE?

>>BILL: VERY GOOD QUESTION.

AS YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED SOMETIMES THEY JUST NAME THESE THINGS FOR, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE NAMING YOUR DOG OR SOMETHING, THEY JUST PICK SOMETHING THAT SOUNDS NICE.

BUT IN THIS CASE, IT ACTUALLY MAKES AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF SENSE.

THE ENGINEERS HAVE DROPPED THE PRICE OF SOLAR POWER AND WIND POWER AND THE BATTERIES TO STORE THEM WHEN THE SUN GOES DOWN OR THE WIND DROPS, THEY HAVE DROPPED THOSE PRICES 90 PERCENT IN THE LAST DECADE.

SO NOW WE LIVE ON A PLANET WHERE THE CHEAPEST WAY TO PRODUCE ENERGY IS TO POINT A SHEET OF GLASS AT THE SUN.

SO IN THE LONG RUN, ALMOST ALL OF US, UNLESS YOU ARE A HUGE STOCKHOLDER IN EXXON OR CHEVRON OR SOMETHING, ARE BETTER OFF IN A WORLD THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE THE USE OF FOSSIL FUEL.

AND THAT IS WHAT IS NOW POSSIBLE.

WE ARE VERY, VERY NEAR THE POINT WHERE HUMANS COULD END LARGE SCALE COMBUSTION ON THIS PLANET.

YOU DON'T NEED A FIRE UNDER THE HOOD OF YOUR CAR ANY MORE FROM THOSE SPARK PLUGS BECAUSE WE HAVE EVS THAT DO A TERRIFIC JOB.

YOU DON'T NEED A FIRE IN YOUR BASEMENT TO HEAT YOUR HOME BECAUSE WE HAVE ELECTRIC HEAT PUMPS THAT DO A CHEAP AND POWERFUL AND WONDERFUL JOB.

YOU DON'T EVEN NEED A FLAME IN YOUR KITCHEN ANY MORE, WE HAVE MOVED FROM GAS COOK STOVES TO THESE INDUCTION COOKTOPS, DON'T ASK ME EXACTLY HOW THEY WORK, MAGNETS.

BUT I AM THE COOK IN MY FAMILY, AND THEY WORK GREAT.

SO IF WE CAN TURN OUT ALL THOSE FIRES AND RELY INSTEAD ON THE FACT THAT THE GOOD LORD WAS KIND ENOUGH TO HANG A LARGE BALL OF BURNING GAS 93 MILLION MILES UP IN THE SKY, THEN WE WILL MAKE REAL PROGRESS.

NOW, THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.

THE BAD NEWS IS THAT IT IS GOING TO BE VERY HARD TO GET THERE BECAUSE THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY CONTINUES TO TRY AND BLOCK THAT PROGRESS IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE, MOSTLY BY GAMING OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM AND BY SPENDING HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY ON DISINFORMATION AS THEY HAVE FOR MANY YEARS.

>>LORENE: DON'T THEY CALL THAT GREEN WASHING, LIKE CLEAN COAL?

>>BILL: EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PRETTY GOOD PROTECTOR TO AVOID SOME OF THAT.

THE BASIC BOTTOM LINE THOUGH IS THE ONE I HAVE OUTLINED.

ANYTHING THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE BURNING SOMETHING IS PROBABLY HELPFUL, SO SOLAR POWER, WIND POWER, GEOTHERMAL POWER, WHICH PEOPLE ARE NOW LOOKING AT HARDER IN NEW MEXICO, ON AND ON AND ON.

IF YOU HAVE TO SET IT ON FIRE, COAL, GAS, OIL, BIOMASS, THEN IT IS ADDING TO THE PROBLEM NOT SOLVING IT.

IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT SWITCH HAPPEN FAST, AND REMEMBER, THIS IS A TIMED TEST, THE WORLD'S CLIMATE SCIENTISTS IN THE GOVERNMENTAL PANEL ON CLIMATE CHANGE HAVE TOLD US THAT WE NEED TO CUT EMISSIONS IN HALF BY 2030 IN ORDER TO MEET THE TARGETS THAT WE SET IN PARIS JUST EIGHT YEARS AGO.

BY MY WATCH, 2030, IS SIX YEARS AND ONE MONTH AWAY, WHICH DOESN'T GIVE US TOO MUCH TIME.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO MOVE FAST AND MOVING FAST IS WHY WE HAVE TO HAVE MOVEMENTS LIKE THIRD ACT TO PUSH OUR GOVERNMENTS AND OUR CORPORATIONS TO GET OFF THE DIME AND TO DO THIS WHILE WE STILL HAVE SOME KIND OF FIGHTING CHANCE.

>>LORENE: WELL, I THOUGHT THIRD ACT WAS A KIND OF STROKE OF GENIUS BECAUSE BY TARGETING PEOPLE OVER 60, YOU HAVE A DEMOGRAPHIC THAT IS WELL ORGANIZED, AND THEY VOTE, THAT THEY HAVE ASSETS, THEY OWN, WHAT 70 PERCENT OF THE ASSETS, PERHAPS, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT THEY ALSO HAVE THE TIME TO DEDICATE TO SAVING THE EARTH IN EFFECT.

>>BILL: IT IS VERY TRUE.

WE STARTED THIRD ACT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AND PEOPLE WERE DUBIOUS AT FIRST BECAUSE THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM HAS ALWAYS BEEN PEOPLE BECOME MORE CONSERVATIVE AS THEY AGE.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS TRUE AT ONE POINT BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, LORENE, IF YOU ARE IN YOUR 60S OR 70S OR 80S NOW, IN YOUR FIRST ACT, YOU WERE AROUND FOR THAT MOMENT OF REALLY EPIC SOCIAL AND CULTURAL AND POLITICAL TRANSFORMATION IN THIS COUNTRY.

YOU WERE AROUND FOR THE ERA WHEN WE STARTED TO TAKE WOMEN SERIOUSLY IN PUBLIC LIFE, FOR THE APEX OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, FOR THE FIRST EARTH DAY IN 1970 WHEN TWENTY MILLION AMERICANS, 10 PERCENT OF THE THEN POPULATION, MARCHED IN THE STREET.

IF YOU HAD ANY DOUBT ABOUT HOW SIGNIFICANT THOSE YEARS WERE, GO LOOK AT WHAT THIS RIGHT-WING SUPREME COURT WENT AFTER IN THEIR RAMPAGE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

THEY WENT AFTER THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF 1965, GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968, CLEAN AIR ACT OF 1971, AND ROE V WADE IN 1973.

SO THOSE ACHIEVEMENTS WERE REALLY IMPORTANT.

NOW, IN OUR SECOND ACT, WITH PLENTY OF NOBLE EXCEPTIONS, IT IS POSSIBLE WE MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE INTERESTED IN CONSUMERISM THAN IN CITIZENSHIP.

BUT THAT IS NOW WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE AND AS YOU SAY, PEOPLE EMERGE INTO THIS THIRD ACT WITH LOTS OF SKILLS, MAYBE SOME RESOURCES AND ABOVE ALL, TIME AND A SENSE OF, I DON'T KNOW, LEGACY.

THAT SOUNDS LIKE A VERY ABSTRACT THING UNTIL YOU ARE NEARER THE EXIT THAN THE ENTRANCE, AT WHICH POINT YOU REALLY DO BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF WORLD YOU ARE PLANNING ON LEAVING BEHIND.

AT THE MOMENT, WE ARE SET TO LEAVE BEHIND A WORLD WORSE THAN THE ONE WE FOUND, WHICH IS NOT THE LEGACY THAT WE HAD HOPED FOR AND IT IS ONE THAT WE CAN STILL DO A LOT TO CORRECT WHICH IS WHY IT HAS BEEN SO MUCH FUN TO WATCH PEOPLE BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS POURING INTO THIRD ACT.

WE HAVE GOT CHAPTERS OVER MOST OF THE COUNTRY NOW AND PEOPLE DOING JUST REMARKABLE WORK, PETITIONING, YOU KNOW, WRITING LETTERS, REGISTERING VOTERS, KNOCKING ON DOORS AND ALSO SOMETIMES GOING TO JAIL.

>>LORENE: WELL, THERE IS A WONDERFUL DYNAMIC BETWEEN GRANDPARENTS AND GRANDKIDS AND, YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF MAYBE DISINGENUOUS FOR US TO BE SITTING BACK AND THINK THE YOUNGER GENERATION WILL DO IT.

BUT THIRD ACT ELEVATES THE SKILLS AND ASSETS AND ABILITIES OF THE PEOPLE OVER 60 AND THEY ALSO REALLY CARE, THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE LEGACY ISSUE AND WHAT THEY ARE LEAVING TO THEIR GRANDKIDS AND IF YOU LOOK AROUND AT PART OF WHAT IS GOING ON, IT IS A MESS.

AND YOU KNOW, WE CREATED IT, IT WOULD BE NICE TO THINK THAT THE THIRD ACT PEOPLE CAN WORK TO ALLEVIATE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING.

>>BILL: WE LOVE WORKING WITH KIDS, IT IS THE BEST PART.

I WILL TELL YOU THE VERY FIRST ACTION WE DID WAS AGAINST THESE BIG BANKS THAT ARE FUNDING THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY CHASE, CITIBANK, WELL FARGO, BANK OF AMERICA.

AND WE DID IT BECAUSE YOUNG PEOPLE FROM GRETA'S MOVEMENT IN THE US CALLED US UP AND SAID, "WE WANT TO TAKE ON THESE BANKS, BUT WE ARE TOO YOUNG TO HAVE CREDIT CARDS.

WE DON'T HAVE CHECKING ACCOUNTS, YOU KNOW, CAN YOU HELP?"

WE SAID, "SURE."

I WILL NEVER FORGET THE FIRST DEMONSTRATION WE DID TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW THERE WERE 200 OR 300 HIGH SCHOOL KIDS THERE BECAUSE HIGH SCHOOL KIDS COMPLETELY GET THAT THEY ARE STARING DOWN THE BARREL OF THIS.

AND THERE ARE SOMEWHAT SPRIER, SO THEY WERE AT THE FRONT OF THE MARCH BUT AT THE BACK THERE WAS A WHOLE CROWD OF US FROM THIRD ACT WITH A BANNER THAT SAID "FOSSILS AGAINST FOSSIL FUELS."

AND ALL THE KIDS WERE CRACKING UP WHEN THEY SAW IT AND THEY WERE REALLY HAPPY TO SEE PEOPLE THERE IN SUPPORT OF THEM.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH BILL MCKIBBEN ABOUT HIS ACTIVISM AND HIS ENVIRONMENTAL WORK.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT GRANDPARENT DEMONSTRATION WAS CALLED "THE ROCKING CHAIR REBELLION."

IT WAS KIND OF PERFORMANCE ART, TALK TO ME ABOUT THESE OLD PEOPLE, WHERE DID THEY PUT THE ROCKING CHAIRS, WHAT WAS THEIR MOTTO?

>>BILL: SURE, SURE.

THIS WAS GREAT.

LAST MARCH AT THIRD ACT, WE DID THIS NATIONWIDE SET OF DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST THESE BANKS, AND WE CHOSE A HUNDRED CITIES AND WE HAD A HUNDRED DEMONSTRATIONS.

I WAS AT THE ONE IN WASHINGTON, DC AND IT WAS REALLY SOMETHING, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THERE.

SO WENT TO CLOSE DOWN THESE BANKS FOR THE AFTERNOON BY DOING THIS SIT-IN, BUT, SOME OF US HAVE REACHED THE AGE WHERE THE THOUGHT OF SPRAWLING ON THE SIDEWALK FOR THREE OR FOUR HOURS IS LESS FUN THAN IT MIGHT ONCE HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, SO WE WENT TO THE GOODWILL IN THE WASHINGTON AREA AND GOT A COUPLE OF HUNDRED ROCKING CHAIRS AND THAT'S WHAT WE USED TO CLOSE DOWN THOSE BANKS FOR THE DAY.

IT WAS THE MOST COMFORTABLE SIT-IN I HAVE EVER BEEN A PART OF AND INDEED, THE NEXT DAY THE NEW YORK TIMES HAD A BIG STORY ABOUT THE ROCKING CHAIR REBELLION UNDERWAY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT WAS REALLY FUN AND IT REALLY DOES BRING YOUNG PEOPLE, I THINK THE HARDEST THING, YOU HEAR A LOT ABOUT CLIMATE ANXIETY AND CLIMATE TRAUMA FOR YOUNG PEOPLE NOW AND I THINK THE HARDEST PART OF THAT IS THEIR SENSE OF PERHAPS THEY HAVE BEEN ABANDONED TO THEIR FATE, YOU KNOW, LEFT TO DEAL WITH THESE THINGS ON THEIR OWN.

THEY ARE GREAT, THEY ARE FULL OF ENERGY AND INTELLIGENCE AND IDEALISM, BUT THEY LACK THE STRUCTURAL POWER TO MAKE CHANGE ON THE SCALE THAT WE NEED IN THE TIME THAT WE HAVE BY THEMSELVES.

THEY NEED BACKUP AND WE ARE COMMITTED TO PROVIDING THAT BACKUP AND WE'VE GOT NOW GOING ON 70,000 ACTIVE VOLUNTEERS ACROSS THE NATION WITH MORE ALL THE TIME.

IT'S REALLY BEEN FUN AND REALLY BEEN POWERFUL, WE'RE ALSO VERY ENGAGED, LORENE, IN THE FIGHT FOR A WORKING DEMOCRACY, BECAUSE WE THINK A WORKING CLIMATE AND A WORKING DEMOCRACY, GO HAND IN HAND AND WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE STATE OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE DO NOT THINK IT IS HEALTHY.

IT WAS A GREAT SHOCK TO MANY OF US, MAYBE TO EVERYBODY BUT CERTAINLY TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME TO WATCH OUR FELLOW CITIZENS INVADE THE UNITED STATES CAPITOL AND KILL POLICE OFFICERS IN AN EFFORT TO STOP THE COUNTING OF VOTES IN AN ELECTION.

I MEAN THAT WAS SOMETHING I NEVER SAW COMING.

>>LORENE: WELL, THAT WAS AN EXTREMELY DISTRESSING AND WE ARE STILL, YOU KNOW, THE WHEELS OF JUSTICE ARE GRINDING VERY SLOWLY FOR HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT, BUT IT IS COMING ALONG.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DID NOT VOTE TO CONDEMN THOSE PEOPLE ARE STILL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO WERE SUPPORTING THE INSURRECTION AND HAVE NOT BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

BUT I JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO ONE THING YOU WERE SAYING BEFORE ABOUT THE YOUNG PEOPLE.

ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD IN THIS IS ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

AND IT TURNS OUT THAT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO IN AMERICA WAS THE FIRST MULTI-FAMILY DWELLING ONLY ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

AND NOW IT IS LOOKING LIKE THAT IS THE ONLY WAY WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

PERHAPS YOU CAN TELL US MORE ABOUT THAT AND ABOUT THE GREEN BUILDING BOOM THAT IS HAPPENING NOW AND HOW IT ADDRESSES THESE VERY PROBLEMS.

>>BILL: ABSOLUTELY.

WELL THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I WAS SO HAPPY TO COME WORK WITH THE PEOPLE AT HOME WISE THERE AND SO EXCITED TO HEAR ABOUT THIS THING, A REFERENDUM ITEM THAT WOULD ACTUALLY PUT A TAX ON THE BUYERS OF MILLION DOLLAR HOMES HERE TO HELP FUND, IF PEOPLE HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY TO SPEND ON A HOUSE, THEN I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY REASON THEY SHOULD MIND HELPING OUT A LITTLE BIT WITH THE INEQUALITY OF THIS SOCIETY AND IN THE PROCESS, BUILDING A MORE VIBRANT COMMUNITY.

WE NEED AFFORDABLE HOUSING BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED AFFORDABLE PLACES TO LIVE IN, BUT WE NEED DENSER, MOREIN FIELD, MORE LIVELY COMMUNITIES BECAUSE, WELL IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THOSE OF US WHO HAVE REACHED A CERTAIN AGE REALIZE THAT IF WE WANT TO AGE IN PLACE, WE ACTUALLY NEED A COMMUNITY AROUND US, YOU KNOW?

SO THAT THE DAY COMES WHEN WE ARE NOT ABLE TO DRIVE SO EASILY OR WHATEVER IT IS, THAT WE HAVE NEIGHBORS, FRIENDS, PEOPLE OF ALL AGES, INSTEAD OF THE KIND OF AMERICAN IDEAL OF BEING AS ISOLATED AS POSSIBLE FOR MANY REASONS.

ONE OF THOSE, OF COURSE, IS ENVIRONMENTAL, THE AMERICAN PROJECT OF JUST BUILDING BIGGER HOUSES FARTHER APART FROM EACH OTHER, IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE USE SO MUCH ENERGY IN THIS SOCIETY.

AND IT IS REALLY WHAT I WAS WRITING ABOUT IN THIS LAST BOOK OF MINE WHICH IS A KIND OF MEMOIR OF AMERICAN SUBURBIA ESPECIALLY BACK IN THE PERIOD WHEN IT WAS GETTING GOING AND WHEN WE WERE BEGINNING TO JUST POUR CARBON INTO THE ATMOSPHERE BECAUSE WE HAD BECOME SUCH A DRIVING-BASED CULTURE.

WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING THEN, BUT WE CAN LOOK BACK NOW AND SAY, "THIS WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST DRIVERS THAT THERE EVER WAS."

>>LORENE: I WOULD JUST LIKE TO HIGHLIGHT THAT BOOK, YOUR LATEST BOOK WHICH WAS CALLED WHAT BY THE NEW YORKER ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS OF 2022, IT IS CALLED THE FLAG, THE CROSS, AND THE STATION WAGON, AND TELL ME THE WONDERFUL SUBTITLE.

>>BILL: A GRAYING AMERICAN LOOKS BACK AT HIS SUBURBAN BOYHOOD AND WONDERS WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED , BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF US WONDER WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED.

THIS WAS NOT THE WORLD QUITE THAT WE EXPECTED TO COME INTO AND SO I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE SOME OF THE ROOTS OF THAT LAY.

AND I THINK THAT THE ROOTS OF THAT LAY TO A LARGE DEGREE WITH THE DISINTEGRATION OF COMMUNITIES IN THE ELEVATION OF US AS INDIVIDUALS ABOVE ALL ELSE.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOTTEN AS A SOCIETY VERY WEALTHY, THAT WEALTHISM SHARED VERY WELL AND THAT WEALTH DOES NOT PRODUCED AS MUCH HAPPINESS AS WE MIGHT HAVE IMAGINED IT WOULD AND ONE REASON FOR THAT IS THAT WE ARE JUST BECAUSE WE LIVE SO FAR SPREAD APART, WE ARE MUCH LESS IN CONTACT WITH EACH OTHER THAN WE USED TO BE.

THE AVERAGE AMERICAN HAS HALF AS MANY CLOSE FRIENDS AS THEY AVERAGE AMERICAN OF THE 1950S.

THAT'S A VERY BIG CHANGE FOR A SOCIALLY EVOLVED PRIMATE TO BE DOING, YOU KNOW?

THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT GETTING BACK TOWARDS THE WORLD THAT WORKS BETTER FOR US IS ALSO A WORLD THAT WORKS BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

THINK ABOUT THAT DENSER HOUSING, FOR INSTANCE IN MULTI-TYPE FAMILY HOUSING, IT IS INHERENTLY MORE EFFICIENT, IT ALLOWS US TO LIVE WITHOUT SOME OF THE EXCESSES THAT WE HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND.

>>LORENE: WELL, THERE IS ANOTHER ELEMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE IN THAT MANY COMMUNITIES ENDED UP GROWING IN AREAS THAT WERE HIGHLY POLLUTED AND THE WHOLE, "NOT IN MY BACKYARD" THING AND SO THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF ECONOMIC AND RACIAL DISTRIBUTION, TOO, THAT HAS TO BE LOOKED AT.

>>BILL: ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP IN THIS COUNTRY HAS ACTUALLY GROWN SINCE YOU AND I WERE YOUNG.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THAT IS THAT THE BIGGEST WAY THAT AMERICANS GOT WEALTHY WAS WITH THE RAPID APPRECIATION OF HOUSING VALUES, ESPECIALLY IN THE SUBURBS.

WELL, IF IN 1960 OR 1970, YOU COULDN'T AFFORD TO GET IN ON THE GROUND FLOOR, THEN YOU MISSED THAT ESCALATOR RIDE UP THAT MOST OF WHITE AMERICA WAS TAKING AND AS A RESULT YOU ARE EVEN FURTHER BEHIND THE EIGHT BALL THAN YOU WERE BACK THEN.

AND IT IS REALLY ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE HAVE TO MOVE CRISPLY NOW TO PUT UP NOT ONLY SOLAR PANELS AND WIND TURBINES BUT ALSO HOUSING THAT PEOPLE NEED AND CAN AFFORD AND WHERE THEY CAN BEGIN TO GROW SOME EQUITY OF THEIR OWN.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I LIKE ABOUT THAT WORK THAT HOME WISE IS DOING THERE IN SANTA FE AND SURROUNDINGS.

THEY ARE VERY FOCUSED ON PEOPLE OWNING THOSE HOMES SO THAT THE APPRECIATION THAT COMES HELPS BUILD GENERATIONAL WEALTH THAT PEOPLE NEED.

>>LORENE: WHILE WE HAVE TIME, I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT ARE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO FROM SMALL THINGS TO MAJOR EFFORTS TO WORK TOWARD THE SOLUTION TO THESE PROBLEMS AND TO WORK TOWARD REPLACING FOSSIL FUELS WITH RENEWABLE.

SO PEOPLE, I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT ELECTRIC CARS AND TESLAS AND WHO HAVE SOLAR HEATING, SO CAN YOU GIVE US SORT OF FROM TINY CHANGES, TURN OFF THE LIGHT SWITCH WHEN YOU LEAVE THE ROOM, TO MAJOR THINGS THAT WE CAN DO.

>>BILL: THOSE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS YOU ARE MENTIONING ARE DEFINITELY USEFUL AND I AM PROUD OF THE FACT THAT MY ROOF IS COVERED WITH SOLAR PANELS, AND THEY CAN CONNECT TO AN EV IN THE GARAGE AND ON AND ON.

BUT I DO NOT TRY TO FOOL MYSELF THAT AT THIS LATE DATE WE CAN MAKE THE MAP OF CLIMATE CHANGE WORK ONE TESLA AT A TIME, ONE VEGAN DINNER AT A TIME.

THOSE THINGS ARE USEFUL BUT AT THIS POINT, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING AN INDIVIDUAL CAN DO IS BE LESS OF AN INDIVIDUAL, JOIN TOGETHER WITH OTHERS IN MOVEMENTS LARGE ENOUGH THAT THEY HAVE SOME CHANCE OF CHANGING THE ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL GROUND RULES AND ALLOWING US TO MAKE REALLY FAST PACED PROGRESS.

THAT IS WHY WE SET UP THINGS LIKE THIRD ACT TO MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE TO LEVERAGE THEIR JOINT COMBINED EFFORTS SO THAT WE CAN REALLY GET THINGS DONE ON A SCALE THAT MATTERS.

SO, YES, CHANGE YOUR LIGHTBULBS BUT YOU KNOW, JUST AS IMPORTANT TO FIGURE IN HOW TO SCREW IN A NEW SENATOR OR A NEW PIECE OF LEGISLATION OR WHATEVER IT IS TO ALLOW REAL CHANGE TO HAPPEN AT A REAL PACE.

>>LORENE: AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE SO MUCH ABOUT THIRD ACT BY INCORPORATING PEOPLE OVER 60 THEY VOTE.

>>BILL: THERE IS NO KNOWN WAY TO STOP OLD PEOPLE FROM VOTING, LORENE.

>>LORENE: I KNOW.

>>BILL: WE ARE INDEFATIGABLE AT IT, SO, WE MIGHT AS WELL MAKE IT COUNT FOR THE RIGHT WAY AND WE MIGHT AS WELL BE VOTING WITH AN EYE TOWARDS THE WORLD THAT OUR KIDS AND OUR GRANDKIDS ARE GOING TO HAVE.

THAT'S WHAT REALLY COUNTS.

>>LORENE: WELL, I JUST HATE TO BROOCH THIS THIS LATE BUT WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE HUNG UP ON WHETHER CLIMATE CHANGE IS HUMAN CAUSED OR NOT.

I JUST THINK THAT IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS HAPPENING AND WHAT WE CAN DO TO FIX IT INSTEAD OF FIGHTING OVER IS ITANTHROPOGENIC OR NOT.

>>BILL: I WROTE THE FIRST BOOK ABOUT THE SCIENCE ABOUT THIS.

THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THE SCIENCE, I MEAN WE KNOW THAT WHEN THE MOLECULAR STRUCTURE OF CO2 TRAPS HEAT THAT WOULD OTHERWISE RADIATE BACK OUT TO SPACE, WE FILL THE ATMOSPHERE WITH CO2 DOING PRECISELY WHAT THE SCIENTISTS TOLD US IT WOULD DO.

SO OUR JOB IS TO STOP PRODUCING CO2, THAT MEANS TO STOP BURNING COAL, GAS, OIL, BIOMASS.

HAPPILY AS I SAID, THE GOOD LORD MUST HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS IN ADVANCE BECAUSE NOW WE KNOW HOW TO MAKE FULL USE OF THAT SUN HANGING UP THERE IN THE SKY.

WE CAN CATCH ITS RAYS DIRECTLY ON THOSE CHEAP SOLAR PANELS, AND WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE FACT THAT IT DIFFERENTIALLY HEATS THE EARTH PRODUCING THE BREEZE THAT TURNS THOSE TURBINES, ALSO PROVIDING CHEAP POWER.

SO WE ARE READY TO GO WE JUST NEED TO NUDGE THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY OUT OF THE WAY SO THEY STOP STOPPING PROGRESS AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO PUSH SO HARD SOMETIMES.

>>LORENE: WELL, THAT SUMS IT UP IN A NUTSHELL AND PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN MORE, I WANT TO MENTION BILL'S BOOKS, THE END OF NATURE , THE FIRST GENERAL BOOK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, A WONDERFUL BOOK CALLED EAARTH MAKING A LIFE IN A TOUGH NEW PLANET , AND THE NEW ONE THE FLAG, THE CROSS AND THE STATION WAGON , I LOVE THAT.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS BILL MCKIBBEN, ENVIRONMENTALIST, ACTIVIST AND AUTHOR.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU ARE DOING AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>BILL: LORENE, THANK YOU AND I SO ENJOYED MY VISIT TO SANTA FE, AND I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT TIME I GET TO GO CLIMB UP SUN MOUNTAIN THERE AND STARE DOWN AT ALL THE BEAUTY AROUND.

I THANK YOU ALL FOR TAKING GOOD CARE OF IT.

>>LORENE: WE ARE DOING OUR BEST AND I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU WHEN YOU COME BACK.

>>BILL: YOU BET.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU, MR. MCKIBBEN.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM