>>ANNOUNCER: REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

I AM SO HAPPY OUR GUEST TODAY IS FORMER GOVERNOR, BILL RICHARDSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>BILL: OF COURSE, REENIE, OF COURSE, YOU HAVE A GREAT SHOW, GREAT AUDIENCE.

>>LORENE: WELL AND GREAT GUESTS.

WE GO BACK A VERY, VERY LONG WAY, BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW YOU, I MEAN, YOU HAVE QUITE THE RESUME, BUT YOU ARE A POLITICIAN, OF COURSE, A DIPLOMAT, WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN A WHILE, BUT YOU ARE ALSO AN AUTHOR AND THIS IS THE BOOK YOU WROTE, BETWEEN WORLDS: THE MAKING OF AN AMERICAN LIFE ABOUT BILL RICHARDSON'S LIFE, HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY AND THIS BOOK THAT I JUST LOVE, IT IS CALLED, HOW TO SWEET TALK A SHARK, I MEAN REALLY AND IT SAYS STRATEGIES AND STORIES FROM A MASTER NEGOTIATOR.

YOU KNOW, WE THINK WE DON'T HAVE TO BE DIPLOMATS IN OUR EVERYDAY LIFE.

THIS TAUGHT ME A LOT ABOUT EVERYDAY LIFE NEGOTIATIONS SKILLS, IT IS A REALLY VALUABLE BOOK.

BUT WHY THE NAME, HOW TO SWEET TALK A SHARK .

>>BILL: WELL, YOU KNOW, REENIE, WHEN I WAS STARTING TO DO NEGOTIATING WITH BAD PEOPLE.

BAD COUNTRIES, PRESIDENT CLINTON ONCE WAS ASKED, "WELL WHY DO YOU SEND RICHARDSON TO TRY GET HOSTAGES OUT AND DO DIPLOMACY," YOU KNOW WHAT CLINTON SAID... >>LORENE: I ACTUALLY DO.

"BAD PEOPLE LIKE BILL RICHARDSON."

I KNOW.

>>BILL: ANYWAY, SO I GOT STARTED THIS NEGOTIATING AND I WROTE THIS BOOK WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM A GHOSTWRITER TO BE HONEST.

>>LORENE: GOOD, GOOD, GOOD.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO STEP ON THAT LINE, "BAD PEOPLE LIKE BILL RICHARDSON," CLINTON SAID THAT ABOUT YOU.

BUT I REMEMBER, YOU HAVE HAD SUCH AMAZING EXPERIENCES, WE WILL TALK ABOUT THE RECENT ONES, BUT YOU HAD SOME THAT WERE SO SCARY, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU WENT INTO SOMALIA WITH THE WARLORDS AND YOU FLEW IN ON A BUSH PLANE WITH NO WINDSHIELD AT ALL AND I THINK THE WARLORD WANTED GUNS AND JEEPS AND SHOULDER-FIRED ROCKETS AND ALL THAT AND HE HAD CAPTURED A BUNCH OF NURSES ON THIS PLANE AND YOUR JOB WAS TO LIBERATE THEM AND YOU SAID, THAT YOU HAD HEARD, BECAUSE YOU ARE A REALLY GOOD LISTENER, THAT HIS TWO-YEAR OLD CHILD HAD DIED FROM MEASLES AND HE IS GIVING YOU THIS LAUNDRY LIST OF WEAPONS AND STUFF AND YOU TOLD HIM, WELL YOU TELL OUR AUDIENCE WHAT YOU TOLD HIM, HOW YOU BROUGHT REALITY TO HIM.

>>BILL: WELL YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, REENIE, HE WAS A WARLORD, HE WAS FIGHTING THE GOVERNMENT.

HE HAD ALL THESE WEAPONS, ALL THESE KIDS WITH AK47S, LIKE 10-YEAR-OLD KIDS.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOSH.

>>BILL: AND HE WANTED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN JEEPS AND I HAD FOUND OUT FROM ONE OF THE PILOTS OF THAT BUSH PLANE WHICH ALMOST DIDN'T MAKE IT, THAT HIS CHILD HAD DIED IN THE CAMP, IN THE WARLORD CAMP, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO HEALTHCARE, THEY HAD NO MEDICINE, THEY HAD NO DOCTORS, THIS WAS OUT IN THE BUSH.

SO I REMEMBER SAYING TO HIM,LOOK YOU WANT ALL THESE DEMANDS, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THEM, BUT WHAT I WILL DO, IS, WE WILL BRING SOME DOCTORS, SOME MEDICINE HERE.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS HIS DAUGHTER WHO HAD DIED, YOU DON'T WANT LITTLE KIDS DYING.

SO, WHAT DO YOU SAY AND HE LOOKED AT ME AND HE SAID, "WILL YOU THROW IN A JEEP?"

AND I SAID, "ALRIGHT, AN OLD JEEP AND THAT'S IT, BUT I GET THE THREE HOSTAGES."

THERE WAS AN AMERICAN, IN FACT ONE FROM ALBUQUERQUE, AN AUSTRALIAN AND A KENYAN AND WE MADE THE DEAL, BECAUSE I THINK HE FELT THAT HE COULD NO LONGER HOLD OFF BEING EXPLOITED, EVERYTHING HE WANTED, HE HAD GOTTEN PUBLICITY BUT THAT WAS WHAT DID IT.

IT WAS A HUMAN INTERACTION, A HUMANITARIAN EFFORT AND I TOOK OFF AND I REMEMBER GOING INTO GENEVA BECAUSE THE RED CROSS HAD TRIED TO NEGOTIATE, INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS, AND I REMEMBER TELLING THE HEAD OF THE RED CROSS, "WELL YOU KNOW, I THREW IN A LITTLE OLD JEEP" AND HE WASN'T TOO HAPPY BUT THERE WAS SO MUCH PRESS THERE THAT WE WENT AHEAD AND IT GOT DONE, SO WE GOT IT DONE.

>>LORENE: SO, THIS IS WHAT IS SO EXTRAORDINARY ABOUT YOU AS A NEGOTIATOR, SO THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHER STORIES I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TELL, TOO.

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WERE SITTING DOWN WITH SADDAM HUSSEIN AND ALTHOUGH YOU ARE A STUDENT OF CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL AREAS, INADVERTENTLY, YOU CROSSED YOUR LEGS AND YOU REVEALED THE BOTTOM OF YOUR SHOE, WHICH IS FORBIDDEN AND SO HE WALKED OUT, RIGHT?

>>BILL: YEAH.

>>LORENE: HE WAS INSULTED, HE WALKED OUT IN A HUFF.

>>BILL: HE WAS INSULTED.

I MADE A MISTAKE, AND I HAD THE BRIEFING BOOK SAYING, DO NOT CROSS YOUR LEGS AND SHOW THE SOLE OF YOUR SHOE.

AND I WAS SO TIRED BECAUSE I REMEMBER MY ASSISTANT AND I HAD ARRIVED THAT NIGHT AND A LOT OF THESE DICTATORS, FIDEL CASTRO, WAS LIKE...THEY WOULD MEET YOU AT NIGHT, LATE AT NIGHT THEY WERE NIGHT OWLS, BUT THEY ALSO WANTED TO GET YOU WHEN YOU WERE TIRED.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>BILL: OR WANTED TO DISARM YOU.

AND I REMEMBER BEING SO TIRED BUT BEING AT THE MEETING HE HAD ALL OF HIS REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS THERE, VERY INTIMIDATING, HAD THESE LITTLE BEADY EYES LOOKING AT ME AND I MADE THAT MISTAKE, AND HE WALKED OUT AND I REMEMBER TALKING TO TARIK ASSIS, HIS FOREIGN MINISTER, WHO WAS THERE ALONG WITH MY ASSISTANT.

I SAID, "WELL, WHAT DID I DO, IS HE COMING BACK, AM I IN TROUBLE?"

HE SAID, "YOU NEED TO APOLOGIZE, THIS WAS A MAJOR MISCUE ON YOUR PART."

AND HE CAME BACK, AND I DECIDED NOT TO APOLOGIZE BUT TO BE VERY RESPECTFUL AND I THINK HE RESPECTED THAT I DIDN'T GROVEL AND SHORTLY, THEREAFTER, HE SAYS, "ALRIGHT BY THE VIRTUE OF MY AUTHORITY," AND I GRABBED HIS ARM JUST SORT OF TO SAY THANK YOU, LIKE WE WERE VERY CLOSE AND ALL OF THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS THOUGHT, BUT ANYWAY, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A GAMBLE, A RISK.

YOU SOMETIMES HAVE TO RISK A LITTLE BIT OR BE HUMOROUS.

>>LORENE: THERE WAS ANOTHER ELEMENT ABOUT THAT, THE POT FROM ACOMA.

>>BILL: YEAH.

>>LORENE: SO YOU WERE ABLE, BECAUSE YOU HAD BROUGHT HIM THIS GIFT, A BEAUTIFUL POT AND YOU WERE ABLE TO BUILD A FURTHER BRIDGE WITH HIM DESPITE YOUR RUDE BEHAVIOR THAT WE ARE BOTH DESERT PEOPLE.

>>BILL: I TRIED TO CONNECT WITH THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE IN IRAQ, YOU KNOW, IT IS A TRIBAL COUNTRY.

A LOT OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, A LOT OF ETHNIC GROUPS AND I REMEMBER HIM STARING AT THIS POT LIKE, IT WAS FAIRLY BIG AND I DIDN'T KNOW HOW HE WAS GOING TO REACT, BECAUSE USUALLY GIFTS FROM HEADS OF STATE WHICH I WASN'T, THEY GIVE THEM SOMETHING VERY PLUSH OR SWANK.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: AND I THINK HE APPRECIATED THAT BECAUSE THERE IS A BIG CULTURAL COMMUNITY IN IRAQ, IRAN, THAT WHOLE PART OF.

>>LORENE: ONE OF THE OLDEST CIVILIZATIONS ON EARTH.

>>BILL: SO MANY CIVILIZATIONS.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: I SAW HIM NODDING, SO I SAID, OKAY, I AM ALRIGHT ON THIS ACOMA POT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: LET'S KEEP GOING.

>>LORENE: ANOTHER ONE AND WE HAVE STORIES THAT WE COULD GO ON AND ON, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM YOUR BOOK AND FROM KNOWING YOU IS THAT ONE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS SECRETS THAT YOU HAVE IS, THAT YOU CAN USE SILENCE AS A WEAPON, WE WILL COME BACK TO THAT, BUT BUILDING TRUST AND PATIENCE.

SO, WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WENT TO SEE KIM JONG IL, THE FATHER, YOU WERE SEATED IN A HUGE AUDIENCE HALL, FOR HOW LONG DID YOU HAVE TO SIT THERE?

>>BILL: WELL WHEN I FIRST WENT THERE, THERE WERE TWO AMERICAN PILOTS FROM THE AIR FORCE THAT HAD BEEN SHOT DOWN OVER NORTH KOREA AND I WAS ASKED BY THEN SECRETARY OF STATE, CHRISTOPHER TO BRING THEM HOME, STAY IN NORTH KOREA UNTIL I GET THEM BACK.

AND I WAITED AND WAITED AND I THINK ONE OF MY SELLING POINTS WITH THE NORTH KOREANS IS, I AM NOT GOING TO LEAVE, I AM GOING TO STAY HERE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: AND THEY GOT SICK OF ME.

BUT WE WERE ABLE TO CONNECT, I SHOWED RESPECT, I LISTENED TO ALL OF THEIR ANTI-US STATEMENTS AND WE SORT OF CONNECTED AS PEOPLE.

I DIDN'T DO THE USUAL DENUNCIATIONS.

I SAID, "THESE TWO PILOTS THEY HAVE FAMILIES."

ONE OF THEM HAD BEEN SHOT DOWN AND KILLED AND THEN I REMEMBER ANOTHER STORY OF THE NORTH KOREAN NEGOTIATIONS IS WHEN I WAS LEAVING ONE OF THE NORTH KOREAN HANDLERS SAID, WELL HERE IS A BILL THAT WE WANT YOU TO PAY.

IT WAS ABOUT $10,000.

I SAID, WHAT IS THIS FOR?

FOR THE AMMUNITION THAT WE USED OR THAT WAS USED TO SHOT DOWN YOUR PLANE.

I SAID THAT I AM NOT GOING TO PAY YOU FOR THAT, BUT I SAID THAT THERE WERE SOME PHONE CALLS I DID MAKE TO WASHINGTON, YOU KNOW, AND I PAID THEM SOME AMOUNT THAT SATISFIED THEM.

SO, EVERYTHING HAS THEIR OWN STORY, BUT EACH NEGOTIATION IS DIFFERENT.

ONE THING THAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO SHOW RESPECT, DON'T GET INTO DIATRIBES, LET THEM TAKE SOME OF THE CREDIT.

BE LOW KEY AND TRY TO CONNECT PERSONALLY, SOMETIMES WITH HUMOR.

SOMETIMES I WOULD SAY, "WELL, I HEAR IN NORTH KOREA YOU DON'T TREAT YOUR HOSTAGES VERY GOOD, MY FINGERNAILS, AM I GOING TO BE OKAY?"

THEY WOULD LOOK AT ME, BUT YOU HAVE GOT TO USE A LITTLE HUMOR SOMETIMES, EVERYBODY HAS A HUMAN DIMENSION, A HUMAN CONNECTION.

>>LORENE: WELL I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE SUPREME GIFTS YOU HAVE USED IN YOUR DIPLOMATIC CAREER BECAUSE YOU KNOW WE HAVE JUST TALKED ABOUT A FEW OF THE STORIES.

>>BILL: YEAH.

>>LORENE: BUT I WOULD LIKE, WE HAVE JUMPED RIGHT INTO IT, BUT I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW A LITTLE OF YOUR BACKGROUND.

YOU ARE THE THIRTIETH GOVERNOR IN NEW MEXICO, YOU SERVED TWO TERMS FROM 2003 TO 2011.

CLINTON APPOINTED YOU THE US AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, YOU ARE OUR TWENTY-FIRST UN AMBASSADOR AFTER MADELINE ALBRIGHT.

>>BILL: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: YOU ARE OUR NINETH ENERGY SECRETARY ALSO APPOINTED BY CLINTON, YOU WERE A US CONGRESSMAN FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT FOR FOURTEEN YEARS.

YOU CHAIRED THE DEMOCRAT NATIONAL CONVENTION, YOU CHAIRED THE DEMOCRAT GOVERNOR'S ASSOCIATION, BACHELORS FROM TUFTS IN FRENCH AND POLY SCIENCE, I LOVE THIS.

>>BILL: WELL YOU ARE BEING VERY GENEROUS ON ALL THIS.

>>LORENE: WELL THESE ARE ALL FACTS.

YOU HAVE GOT A MASTERS FROM TUFTS, THEIR SCHOOL OF DIPLOMACY AND LAW IN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS.

AND THEN AFTER COLLEGE, I JUST LOVE, YOUR PATH HAS BEEN JUST SO TAILOR MADE FOR WHERE YOU ARE NOW, AFTER COLLEGE YOU WERE IN THE HOUSE, BUT YOU WERE A STAFF MEMBER ON THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATION COMMITTEES, AND YOU WORKED IN THE KISSINGER WHITE HOUSE UNDER THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION.

I MEAN FROM MADELINE ALBRIGHT AND HENRY KISSINGER, I MEAN THESE ARE EXTRAORDINARY DIPLOMATS.

>>BILL: WELL AND THEY WERE, I WON'T SAY MENTORS, BUT YOU WATCH AND YOU LEARN FROM PEOPLE THAT ARE IN GOVERNMENT, YOU WATCH THEIR STYLES.

MADALINE ALBRIGHT WAS A PIONEER WITH WOMEN.

I REMEMBER ONE TIME SHE HAD THIS MEETING WITH A BUNCH OF ARAB FOREIGN MINISTERS, THEY WERE ALL MEN AND SHE SAID, "YOU KNOW, I WANT TO COME BACK SOMEDAY AND MEET WITH ALL OF YOU ARAB FOREIGN MINISTERS WHEN YOU HAVE ONE WOMAN AS FOREIGN MINISTER."

AND THEY SAT INTO SILENCE, I SAID, "OH MY GOD THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE A GOOD MEETING."

BUT THEY ACCEPTED IT AND KISSINGER, YOU KNOW, HAD A VISION RUSSIA, CHINA HE WAS NOT VERY POPULAR I KNOW WITH SOME DEMOCRATS, BUT HE HAD A VISION OF AMERICA'S STRATEGIC ROLE IN THE WORLD AND WE PLAYED OFF RUSSIA AND CHINA BY NIXON'S VISIT TO CHINA AND THEN THE ARMS AGREEMENT WITH THE RUSSIANS, SO WE GOT THEM BOTH AND KISSINGER IS STILL GOING - HE IS 98.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>BILL: HIS HEAD IS VERY GOOD.

>>LORENE: BUT HE WAS A MASTER OF REAL POLITICS.

>>BILL: YEAH, HE WAS.

>>LORENE: HE WAS ABLE TO LOOK AT HOW THINGS WERE AND HE WAS ONE OF THE FINEST MENTORS YOU COULD CHOOSE.

WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH FORMER GOVERNOR, BILL RICHARDSON, ABOUT HIS LIFE AND TIMES.

I WOULD LIKE TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT NORTH KOREA BECAUSE I THINK YOU WERE NOMINATED FOR THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE FOR YOUR WORK WITH NORTH KOREA AND SO IF YOU COULD GIVE US THE SHORT VERSION BECAUSE YOU WORKED WITH THEM FOR SO LONG AND YOU HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER AND I GET THE NAMES MIXED UP.

>>BILL: YEAH.

VERY DISTANT WITH BOTH BUT STILL MY MAIN INTERACTIONS WERE WITH THE FOREIGN MINISTRY, BUT I HAD BEEN THERE EIGHT TIMES NEGOTIATING ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN HOSTAGES, AMERICAN SERVICEMEN, BUT ALSO TRYING TO GET THEM BACK TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE WITH THE UNITED STATES ON NUCLEAR ISSUES, HUMANITARIAN AIDS ONES, SO I WON'T SAY I KNOW THEM PRETTY WELL, BUT WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF INTERACTIONS.

AND YOU FIND THAT ONE, THE NORTH KOREANS LIKE ATTENTION, TWO, THEY LIKE TO PROVOKE THE WORLD AND US, OH, WE HAVE THESE MISSILES WE HAVE TO SHOOT THEM TO JAPAN AND SOUTH KOREA.

I KNOW THAT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE ALL OF THE ATTENTION IS ON UKRAINE AND RUSSIA THEY WANT TO BE IN THE MIX, THEY WANT ATTENTION AND THEY WANT THINGS.

THE PROBLEM WITH NORTH KOREA, REENIE, IS THE WAY YOU GET TO THEM IS VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE THEY THINK DIFFERENTLY.

THEY FEEL THEY HAVE BEEN UNDER SIEGE, I THINK THE WAY TO APPROACH THEM IS THROUGH HUMANITARIAN ISSUES, THROUGH FOOD, THROUGH COVID ASSISTANCE, THROUGH WAYS THAT YOU CAN WORK TO IMPROVE THEIR ECONOMY.

THEIR ECONOMY IS THE POOREST ON EARTH YET THEY HAVE A LEADER WHO IS AUTOCRATIC AND UNPREDICTABLE AND HE IS YOUNG AND HE WANTS TO SWAGER.

>>LORENE: CAN YOU TELL WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU INVITED THE NORTH KOREAN DELEGATION TO THE GOVERNOR'S MANSION.

>>BILL: WELL I HAD BEEN GOVERNOR MAYBE SEVEN DAYS AND WE WERE ABOUT TO START THE SESSION AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, I GET THIS MESSAGE FROM THE NORTH KOREANS IN NEW YORK.

"WE WOULD LIKE TO MEET WITH YOU," AND I REMEMBER RESPONDING, "I AM OUT OF FOREIGN POLICY, I AM GOVERNOR OF NEW MEXICO."

"NO, NO, NO, WE WANT TO TALK TO YOU, WE WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE TO THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WHICH DOESN'T WANT TO TALK TO US."

SO I REMEMBER TALKING AND CALLING COLIN POWELL AND I SAID, "WELL WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO, I DON'T WANT TO MESS..." HE SAID, "NO, NO, NO, MEET WITH THEM, MEET WITH THEM AND SEE WHAT THEY WANT."

SO THEY CAME HERE AND I BROUGHT THEM TO THE LEGISLATURE AND BROUGHT THEM TO TYPICAL FOOD IN NEW MEXICO, GREEN CHILE, THEY LOVED FISH AND WE BONDED A LITTLE BIT AND I REMEMBER TALKING TO COLIN POWELL AND ALL THE PRESS WAS OUTSIDE THE GOVERNOR'S MANSION AND MY DEAR FRIEND, STU INGLE.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>BILL: WHO WAS MINORITY LEADER OF THE SENATE.

>>LORENE: HE STILL IS.

>>BILL: I REMEMBER SAYING SOMETHING, I REMEMBER SAYING, "WELL, THIS IS A STRANGE WAY TO START A GOVERNORSHIP TALKING TO THE NORTH KOREANS, I HOPE HE TALKS TO US, THE REPUBLICANS."

>>LORENE: YEAH, RIGHT.

>>BILL: DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

>>LORENE: I DO, I DO.

I ALSO REMEMBER THAT THIS WAS REALLY A PRIME MOVIE MAKING TIME AND WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL MOVIES THAT HAVE BEEN MADE HERE AND I THINK YOU GAVE THEM COPIES OF THESE MOVIES.

>>BILL: OH YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND FED THEM FULL OF GREEN CHILE, THEY WERE VERY HAPPY.

>>BILL: THEY WERE VERY HAPPY.

I REMEMBER WE WENT HERE IN SANTA FE TO CASA SENA RESTAURANT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: AND THE OWNER AT THE TIME, JERRY PETERS, PREPARED THIS HUGE ELABORATE, BECAUSE THEY'RE FISH MAINLY, THEY LOVE FISH, THEY LOVE SALMON, THEY LOVE ANYTHING CEVICHE.

WE DID THAT AND THAT HELPED A LOT, IN OTHER WORDS, THE PERSONAL CONNECTION IS SO IMPORTANT IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YOU MENTIONED RUSSIA AND THE UKRAINE.

SO FROM YOUR BACKGROUND IN INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, WHAT CAN WE DO, JUST THE TOLL ON THE CIVILIANS IN UKRAINE IS SO BRUTAL.

IT IS HEARTBREAKING.

>>BILL: I HAVE EXPERIENCED MAINLY WHEN I WAS SECRETARY OF ENERGY DEALING WITH BOTH RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, UKRAINE WITH THE NUCLEAR POWER PLANT THAT HAD TO BE CLOSED DOWN WITH ASSISTANCE TO THE NEW DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE.

AND WITH RUSSIA ON THE NATIONAL LABS, WE HAD EXCHANGE OF SCIENTISTS, WE HAD A URANIUM AGREEMENT WITH RUSSIA, WE HAD INTELLECTUAL, SOME OF OUR NUCLEAR EXPERTS WE INTERCHANGED THEM.

SO I USED THAT TO MAINLY DEAL RIGHT NOW, REENIE, WITH OUR PRISONER ISSUES, OUR HOSTAGES ISSUES WITH RUSSIA, WITH A MARINE NAMED TREVER REED.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>BILL: THEN BRITTNEY GRINER.

I ASSISTED ON BOTH OF THOSE BUT YOU GOT, THE MAIN CREDIT GOES TO THE PRESIDENT WHO DID THE EXCHANGE, THE PRISONER, AUTHORIZED THAT.

I PUSHED BOTH SIDES TO TRY TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT.

WE JUST GOT SOMEBODY OUT FROM THE RUSSIA/POLAND BORDER, A YOUNG MAN NAMED TAYLOR WHO HAD SOME, WHO IS A MARINE.

>>LORENE: TAYLOR DUDLEY.

>>BILL: TAYLOR DUDLEY, WHICH WAS NOT A PRISONER EXCHANGE, IT WAS YOU KNOW NEGOTIATING AT A VERY LOCAL LEVEL AND RUSSIAN KALININGRAD, RIGHT NEXT TO THE POLISH BORDER.

>>LORENE: DIDN'T HE GO TO A MUSIC FESTIVAL?

>>BILL: YEAH, YEAH.

A LOT OF THESE HOSTAGES THEY TAKE THE WRONG TURN.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>BILL: THERE WAS A MARINE WE GOT OUT OF MEXICO.

HE WAS IN TIJUANA, AND HE TOOK THE WRONG TURN AND ENDED UP IN TIJUANA WITH A WEAPON, WHICH IS ILLEGAL, BUT WE GOT HIM OUT.

YOU KNOW HE WAS AN AFGHAN VETERAN AND HE HAD PTSD, WE USED THAT TO GET HIM OUT.

SO NOTHING IS EVER PERFECT.

>>LORENE: NO.

>>BILL: SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL, EVERY CASE IS DIFFERENT.

EVERY CASE YOU HAVE TO USE DIFFERENT KIND OF METHODOLOGY, POLITICAL PUSH.

SOMETIMES I AM WITH A GOVERNMENT WHEN I AM NEGOTIATING, OTHER TIMES, LIKE NOW, WE DO IT OUT OF OUR FOUNDATION WHERE WE WORK FOR THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES.

WE DON'T TAKE ANY MONEY FROM THEM, I DON'T TAKE ANY SALARY, WE HAVE A SMALL STAFF OF THREE AND WE TRY TO DO THE BEST WE CAN, BUT WE DON'T TAKE ORDERS FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU FOUNDED IN 2011, THE RICHARDSON CENTER FOR GLOBAL.... >>BILL: YEAH, GLOBAL ENGAGEMENT.

>>LORENE: ENGAGEMENT.

>>BILL: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: AND YOU HAVE DONE SO MUCH TO LIBERATE PEOPLE THAT ARE ILLEGALLY OR INAPPROPRIATELY DETAINED AND AS YOU DECIDE, YOU WERE DECIDING SOME OF THE TECHNIQUES THAT YOU USED IN THESE MANY CASES, WHAT I REALLY ADMIRE IS YOUR INTUITIVE RESPONSE AND YOUR FLEXIBILITY, YOU KNOW, YOU WILL TRY ANYTHING THAT COMES TO MIND AND YOU DON'T HAVE A STRUCTURE, IT HAS GOT TO BE BY THE BOOK.

YOU JUST DO WHAT WORKS AND IT WORKS.

>>BILL: WELL, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE GOT NOTHING TO OFFER THE OTHER SIDE, RIGHT?

AND THE OTHER SIDE YOU ARE TRYING TO GET, SAY SOMEBODY OUT OR HELP SOME REFUGEE OR DO SOME HUMANITARIAN COVID ASSISTANCE, AND SO YOU HAVE TO PERSUADE THE OTHER SIDE WITHOUT ANYTHING IN RETURN.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: SOMETIMES.

I MEAN USUALLY IF YOU MEET WITH SOMEBODY, THEY AGREE TO MEET WITH YOU, A BAD COUNTRY OR A GOVERNMENT THAT WE HAVE PROBLEMS, YOU KNOW THAT MAYBE YOU HAVE PASSED THE FIRST BARRIER AND MAYBE THEY WANT TO DO A HUMANITARIAN GESTURE TO SEND A MESSAGE.

BECAUSE WE TRY TO GIVE THEM THE PRESS, THE PUBLIC RELATIONS, ALRIGHT YOU ARE DOING THIS, YOU GO AHEAD AND ANNOUNCE IT.

AND SO THEY WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE TO THE US, WELL, WE WANT TO START DEALING WITH YOU.

IT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK BUT YOU HAVE GOT TO HAVE SOMETHING IN YOUR POCKET BESIDES, YOU KNOW, BESIDES THE FACT THAT I AM NO LONGER IN GOVERNMENT.

>>LORENE: WELL WE WILL GO INTO SOME OF THESE CASES IN THE NEXT PART OF THE SHOW, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT BRITTNEY GRINER.

>>BILL: YEAH.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE SHE WAS A BASKETBALL PLAYER, SHE MADE THE MISTAKE, I DON'T KNOW WHY PEOPLE THINK THAT IF YOU HAVE A DRUG THAT IS LEGAL IN YOUR HOME COUNTRY IT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS LEGAL ANYWHERE ELSE, BUT IT WAS PROBABLY AN OVERSIGHT.

BUT SHE WAS THE RUSSIANS DIDN'T WANT TO LET HER GO, I MEAN YOU REALLY HAD TO WORK HARD ON THAT, CAN YOU TELL US?

>>BILL: YES, YES.

AND AGAIN, I PLAYED A ROLE IN THIS BUT SO DID, EVENTUALLY IT WAS THE PRESIDENT THAT AUTHORIZED AN EXCHANGE WITH A BAD PERSON, A GUY NAMED VIKTOR BOUT.

>>LORENE: THE MERCHANT OF DEATH IS HIS NICKNAME.

>>BILL: YEAH, YEAH.

BUT IT WAS A ONE-TO-ONE TRADE, IT WAS NOT PLEASANT.

THE GUY IS A TERRIBLE GUY, BUT WE NEEDED TO GET BRITTNEY BACK.

I REGRET THAT WE DIDN'T GET THE MARINE OUT, PAUL WHELAN TOO, IN A TWO FOR TWO THAT I THOUGHT WOULD WORK.

BUT BRITTNEY GRINER PLAYED THIS VERY WELL, HER TEAM, HER FAMILY, HER FATHER, HER WIFE, THEY ADMITTED THE MISTAKE.

THEY DIDN'T PUSH VERY HARD AND CALL THE RUSSIANS BAD NAMES.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: THEY PUT PRESSURE ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYING WE NEED TO GET HER OUT.

THE WNBA, THE BASKETBALL WOMEN'S GROUP, DID A VERY EFFECTIVE JOB AS DID A LOT OF NBA PLAYERS.

THIS WAS AN AMERICAN ICON.

BUT I DO REGRET, WE'RE WORKING ON IT RIGHT NOW, PAUL WHALEN, A MARINE, A NAVY GUY, WRONGFULLY DETAINED HAS BEEN THERE FOUR YEARS.

WE HAVE GOT TO HIM OUT.

>>LORENE: BUT DON'T THEY HAVE THIS WEIRD CRITERION THAT IF THEY THINK HE IS A SPY YOU HAVE TO GIVE THEM A SPY AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY SPIES.

>>BILL: RIGHT.

WELL, YOU KNOW, THE RUSSIANS, PUTIN IS AN EX-SPY, KGB SO, YEAH.

THE ONES THAT THEY REALLY PUSH HARD ON TO KEEP, THEY ACCUSE THEM OF ESPIONAGE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>BILL: AND WHALEN WAS NOT A SPY, I MEAN HE MAY HAVE HAD SOME COMPUTERS AND HE GOT SET UP, BUT HE IS A PRIZE BECAUSE HE IS AN AMERICAN MILITARY GUY.

AND HE HAS BEEN THERE FOUR YEARS AND YOU KNOW THE RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA IS TERRIBLE RIGHT NOW.

WE HAVE OUR DIFFERENCES ON UKRAINE, ON ARMS CONTROL, ON HUMAN RIGHTS, ON DEMOCRACY.

SO THE RELATIONSHIP IS NOT GOOD.

WE HAVE CALLED THEM WAR CRIMINALS, THEY HAVE CALLED US WORSE.

SO THAT DOESN'T HELP WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO GET A HOSTAGE OUT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>BILL: SOMEBODY LIKE, OURSELVES, THAT IS OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT.

BUT WE HAVE HELPED WITH THREE, THE LAST ONE TAYLOR IN THE POLISH BORDER WITH RUSSIA.

HE IS HOME, I JUST GOT A BEAUTIFUL LETTER FROM HIS FAMILY, A GRATEFUL LETTER AND IT MAKES IT ALL WORTH IT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

I CAN'T IMAGINE ANYTHING MORE SATISFYING THAN TO BRING SOMEBODY HOME.

>>BILL: WE BROUGHT HIS MOTHER TO THE BORDER.

>>LORENE: OH, REALLY.

>>BILL: YEAH, HER NAME WAS SHELLY AND YOU COULD SEE HER LOOKING AT THE BORDER ENTRANCE THERE AND HE CAME IN A LITTLE LATE LIKE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO COME IN AROUND 10 AM, HE CAME IN AT 4 PM.

I KNOW THE RUSSIANS WERE MAKING US WAIT, BUT WHEN SHE SAW HIM IT WAS WORTH IT.

>>LORENE: OH.

>>BILL: TO SEE HER GLEE AND WE FLEW THEM BACK AND THEY ARE BACK HOME IN MICHIGAN.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

WOW.

WELL, WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE FOR NEXT WEEK'S SHOW, TELL MORE OF THESE STORIES.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO TELL OUR AUDIENCE WHO HAS HEARD THESE STORIES SO FAR, WHAT AND WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE TO DO THIS IN, WHAT DO THEY NEED TO TAKE AWAY FROM THESE EXPERIENCES IN YOUR ACCOUNT THAT THEY CAN USE IN THEIR OWN LIFE?

>>BILL: ONE, ALWAYS TRY TO RESOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS BY HUMAN INTERACTION, BY TALKING TO PEOPLE, BY NOT NECESSARILY NEGOTIATING, THAT'S WHAT I WANT, BUT PERSONAL CONTACT.

DON'T JUST DO EVERYTHING THROUGH MEDIA THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, THROUGH TWITTER, THROUGH THAT'S IMPORTANT TECHNOLOGY, BUT THAT ONE TO ONE, LIKE I HOPE HERE IN THE LEGISLATURE, REPUBLICANS ARE JUST TALKING TO EACH OTHER, "HEY, CAN WE RESOLVE THIS" INSTEAD OF LIKE BLASTING EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION THAT HAPPENED HERE IN NEW MEXICO WITH MAGA AND THAT CANDIDATE THAT WENT AFTER SEVERAL PEOPLE.

>>LORENE: SOLOMON PENA.

>>BILL: TERRIBLE, IT HAS NEVER BEEN THAT BAD.

>>LORENE: WELL WE ARE GOING TO START OUR NEXT SHOW WITH THAT ISSUE OF HOW TO TAMP DOWN THE VIOLENT RHETORIC, BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE CRAZY.

WHO ARE GOING TO GO OUT AND DO IT, BUT THAT'S FOR NEXT SHOW.

>>BILL: OKAY.

>>LORENE: BUT THIS SHOW HAS BEEN SO RICH AND WONDERFUL.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS GOVERNOR BILL RICHARDSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>BILL: IT HAS BEEN NICE TO BE WITH YOU, REENIE, AS ALWAYS.

>>LORENE: ALWAYS.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH >>ANNOUNCER: REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM