- Just ahead on "American Black Journal," our "Black Church in Detroit" series, examines the intersection between politics and religion.

We're gonna talk about the impact of the current political conditions on the black church, and its responsibility to the community.

Plus, we'll look at how religious leaders, are addressing politics in the pulpit and answering questions from congregants.

You don't want to miss today's show.

"American Black Journal" starts now.

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Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm your host, Stephen Henderson.

Today, we're continuing a conversation we started last month about the relationship between politics and the church.

It is part of our "Black Church in Detroit" series, which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

The black church has always been a participant in the fight for civil rights, social justice, and racial equality.

Recent political and social changes in the United States are raising questions for the black church.

How does it navigate the current political climate?

Should it prepare congregants for possible attacks on their faith?

Here to address these questions and more are Pastor Barry Randolph of Church of the Messiah, Reverend Dr.

Constance Simon from Fellowship Chapel, and Reverend Dr.

Georgia Hill of Lifechurch Riverside.

Welcome all three of you back to "American Black Journal."

- Thank you for having us.

- Thank you.

- You know, it's really unfortunate.

Just sitting here, reading that, I'm thinking, "Why do I have to say these things?

Why am I talking about possible attacks on people's faith?

Why am I talking about the difficulty that politics in our country and in our culture is injecting into our churches, into our faith?"

But the reality is these things are happening, and they are happening with increasing frequency, and I think increasing in intensity.

And so I really want to get the three of you to talk about just what it looks like to be at the center of all of that and try to manage it.

Pastor Barry, why don't you start by telling us what the current climate is like in terms of politics creeping into the sanctuary in a way that they hadn't before.

- Yeah, well, I believe in order to look at what's happening now, you look a little bit at what happened in the past.

And I always think about the Civil Rights Movement, and I think about how the church had to be proactive back then, and how we had to stand up for racial equality and social justice.

And we haven't moved much from that in the sense of the black church has always stood up for what it is that we need to do.

The difference is, now, you have Christian nationalism, and you have some people who are now turning political ideology and adding it to religion.

And I think that's what a biggest mistake has taken place.

- So what does that look like at Church of the Messiah right now?

- Well, Church of the Messiah, is always gonna follow the words of Jesus Christ.

We're always gonna feed the hungry.

We're always gonna take care of the marginalized.

We're always gonna look out for the orphan and widows, and anything else that teach you something different than that is spiritual malpractice.

- Hmm, hmm.

Dr.

Simon, Fellowship is, I think, an even more interesting example of this because of its leadership and- - Yes.

- And the kinds of things that leadership has been involved in.

But talk about what's different about this moment for Fellowship too.

- You know, and thank you, Pastor Barry.

I liked how you started this off.

One thing about Fellowship is we're Christ-rooted and African-centered.

And if you go back to us being enslaved and coming here, we've always had to have our own political focus, black community.

What we're seeing now in the world with the nationalism is other people who are having to deal with an agenda that we've never been able to really get away from.

We've never been able to just let it go.

I find that it's very important right now to continue that conversation about the politics, because I've had people say, "Well, your church is political."

And I'd say, "Then you didn't read the Bible, because everything Jesus did was political."

- Was political, yeah.

- He dealt with the disinherited.

He dealt with those that were oppressed.

He dealt with those that were not of his kind.

And if you read a lot of the stories, even the story of, what is it, Jonah and the whale.

Jonah was sent to talk to people in Nineveh.

Ninevites were not the people that Jesus was talking about that God wanted.

He sent him to another group and they were received.

So to me, the voice today is to stay focused, stay focused on one that God, that's brought us through slavery, through civil rights to now, and not let that go.

And to be encouraged, because we're in a world where the media, not you, but the media- - I'm part of the media too.

- Yeah, I know, but in a lot of ways, it's playing up the Christian nationalism.

- Yeah.

- There are people who are infiltrating churches, Christian nationalists, and taking over pulpits so they can move their agenda.

- Yeah.

- But then what I think really is coming to light is what happened in Holly, what was that, no Grand Blanc.

- [Stephen] Grand Blanc, sure.

- I think it opened up the door for people to say, "Wait a minute, what are they talking about?

How is this impacting us?"

- Yeah.

- But the black church that has been the restorer, the communicator, the church that took care of everything for the community when no one else would pay attention, that church is still there.

- It's still there, it's still there, yeah.

- Yeah.

- Reverend Hill.

- I think that the thing that concerns me quite a bit, is just the misinterpretation, I don't know if malinterpretation is a word, but I'll use it, of the scriptures, by those who claim to be promoting a so-called Christian agenda, where they're actually teaching that Christians don't have to be that compassionate.

- Right.

- And that there are other things that we know are part of the ministry of Jesus Christ, and that's not really part of Christianity.

And so what I think that the church has to do in this hour too, is really to stand up for the truth.

What is it that Jesus Christ actually said?

And he actually said that we are to take care of the disenfranchised, the dispossessed.

That's the group that we're called to.

And so the idea of saying that diversity, equity, and inclusion is somehow something that we should be against as a political community, the politics of our nation, is ridiculous because diversity is exactly what Jesus Christ is talking about.

He's exactly talking about a table where everyone is welcome.

And so I think that one of the things that church has to do in this hour is to be truth tellers.

- Yes.

- Yes.

- And to make sure that people do not fall for this, really, I'm not even sure what the word is, but this turning inside out of the gospel, and trying to say that Jesus was not political, and there's "No such thing" as social gospel.

It's just a lie.

- [Barry] Yeah.

- [Stephen] Mm-hmm.

- And so I think that, you know, I'm really happy to be here with this brother and this sister here, because there're among those, and there are many, there are many in our city and in our nation who are about truth telling.

One of my favorites just happens to be Reverend William Barber.

But there's some people who are out there telling the truth.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- [Constance] Yes.

- But what's strange to me, I think, is that the people who are saying these things about Christ's message not being welcoming, not being about helping people are so earnest about it.

I mean, it's as if they believe- - Yeah.

- What they're saying.

I can't say what's in somebody's heart.

So I don't know if they believe it or not.

I think it's hard to counter that even with truth, because it is coming across so powerfully, and it is a message that a lot of people, I think, want to hear, which is, I can be about me and I can be about mine, and it's okay.

I don't have to question that.

And I'm not gonna be questioned about that in my church.

And so I think that's really difficult to counter.

- And did you read the book?

- Well, right, the words are on the page, right?

- "When I was hungry, you fed me, when I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink.

When I was sick and in prison, you visited me.

When I was naked, you closed me."

Where in Jesus did we see you in this way?

And he said, "Insomuch as you have done this unto the least of these, my brothers and sisters, you've done this unto me."

So you can't change the words.

- Right, right.

- So if you read the book, it will tell you what it is you're supposed to do.

- But your point is so powerful, that really why people do those things is because they are self-centered.

- Yes.

- And they're self-motivated.

- And it's easy.

- And it's self-aggrandizement.

- Yeah.

- But that is not what Jesus Christ preaches.

In fact, he says that, "If you don't feed the hungry-" - [Barry] Right.

- "And if you don't go the naked, and you don't visit the sick in prison, there is weeping and gnashing of teeth for you."

- [Constance] Right.

- And he said, "He would separate the sheep from the goats."

- Yes.

- Which one are you, the sheep who will follow, or the goat who's stubborn wants to have it some way?

- But your point is, I agree is well taken.

Because some of the things I have read, they're telling people that they are getting this information that God has ordained them to say this, the Christian nationalists, that God wants this, that what they're doing is happening, and it's growing because God is having this happen.

And people, I guess, they're in a P.T.

Barnum spirit.

You full people, you know, you find somebody every five minutes that's gonna believe.

But also, when you look at the of Jesus and you look at what they're speaking about, how much of it is like you both have said, self-aggrandizement.

- Yes.

- What's going to protect you?

- Yes.

- How about the people?

I preached about people sitting the fence, and I said, "Jesus is not on the fence."

- [Stephen] Right.

- And we have too many people who are not on the, well, let's take the election.

After the election, everybody was rah, rah, rah.

Then they did the DEI and everybody was like, "Oh."

And to me it was like, "Oh, well, we won't be affected.

Just people of color."

And what happened?

More women left out of there and we found out we were at the bottom of the totem pole on this.

So they're starting to be affected.

Watch some those shorts, and hear the people who said, "Well, I didn't believe in a woman, but I wish I had voted for, because they're picking up people left and right."

As a black female, I have had, and something happened with me and ICE.

So I'm saying, "Uh-uh."

- You mean that they- - Yes, they were invasive.

They can, I don't wanna tell the story.

- Okay.

- And I'm here, I'm fine.

You know, me and God got this, but it was just so unreal.

- Yeah.

- And I think there are a lot of people who are sitting back thinking, "Oh, this is going to happen to them."

That them theory, no.

- Right.

- No, and if we don't take care of them, it's going to be us.

- Yeah.

- Well, also too, would they be able to recognize Jesus if he came today?

He would not be white, he would not be American.

- [Both] Right.

- So what does that mean?

- Oh good.

- What would they do with him if he came today?

What happens- - And started saying some of the things- - Things that he was saying.

- That he actually said, and doing some of the things he actually did.

- Yes, he does not have the right background.

He does not have the right pedigree.

- Right.

- He comes from a marginalized community.

He was born of a teenage mother.

He would not fit the bill.

- Right.

- Right.

- So it would be a thing if Jesus came today, he would probably be deported.

- In fact, his community today is being turned into rubble.

- Yes, yes.

- Yes, right.

- I wanna talk about what happened in Grand Blanc at the church there, but also, the broader environment of violence with regard to churches and people of faith.

And that's also something that the black church is not unfamiliar with.

I mean, some of the most prominent inflection points, in fact, in black church history, are about violence practiced against black churches.

And not just a long time ago, Dylann Roof in South Carolina- - Yes, yeah.

- That's not that long ago, walks in and just starts shooting black people.

But I wonder what each of you are thinking about and doing in your churches now to prepare your congregations for this climate or to respond to this climate.

Does it look different?

Does it feel different now because of this?

- We had a refresher training on security.

However, there has been no ease in Zion.

Black people in black church, have never just let down our guard.

- Right, right.

- We've never said, "Oh, we can just sit here."

- We're good.

- Yeah, someone unusual comes in, and I told a story about a friend and I told a friend, there's a minister friend who is on sabbatical, and he wanted to come to fellowship, and he's white.

So he comes and he sits down.

I usually make sure the kids are fine before I come in.

So I was in a room where I could see the whole congregation, and I said, "Oh, security, security, security."

I said, "Oh, they don't know who he is."

So they're on guard.

I walk out intentionally and give him a hug.

And then it was like, "Everybody's like, oh, okay."

Because I believe it was right after what happened in Grand Blanc.

But we have never been to the point where we could just relax.

We have always been, well, expecting- - Some sort of.

- Yeah.

That doesn't mean we don't worship.

That doesn't mean that it interrupts anything.

But even going downtown, even when you people send their kids to the store driving, it's that backstory that we know that we just gave.

- And is always honest with it, right?

- Yeah, it's always there.

- Yeah.

- And churches are a target because we open our doors to everybody.

- Yeah.

- And because especially, when you work on issues of social justice, a lot of times, some people don't like the work that's being done by church.

- Right.

- [Stephen] Sure.

- But we're called to it.

They didn't kill Jesus 'cause he was nice.

They killed him 'cause he was effective- - Yes.

- And disruptive.

- Yep, and he stood up for the marginalized.

And what would we do today?

How can we call ourselves people of God?

We don't stand up to the occasion of today.

- Right.

- And we don't do that.

- Does it ever occur to you to think about not welcoming everybody the way you do, because you have to be more mindful of security?

I mean, does does it change the way that you think about that?

- Well, how does the Bible say, "You have to be as smart as a serpent, but as general as a dove."

You have to have some common sense.

You have to be able to understand that things are here in this world that are not right.

You have to, of course, protect yourself, look out for the congregation, this, that, and the other.

But at the same time, we are still the people of God, our ultimate trust and faith is in him.

- What about security and concerns?

- I think we all have to be concerned.

- Yep.

- And I think we have to use wisdom.

I think the scripture that Pastor Randolph brings forward is perfect, is you have to be wise like a serpent.

And so, you know, if somebody comes in with a big old bag, looking like they're carrying some weapons, I mean, they have to be, you know- - [Constance] Yeah.

- They get to have a chat at the door before they come in because we've got children in there.

- [Barry] Yep.

- We've got elders in there.

- [Barry] Yep.

- We've got people on wheelchairs and canes.

So we have to exercise wisdom.

But in the final analysis, you know, we are to have open doors.

So that's why churches, you know, we try to keep down the gating at a minimum.

I know there's some churches that have to have gates around, you know?

But we try to keep that thing down to a minimum, because the precinct of the church ought to be a place where people feel welcome, and they see it and they say, "You know what?

I'm having a bad day.

I need to go over there."

And that's what we want.

- This is gonna be a kind of difficult question, I think.

Is there an opportunity for black churches to connect with some of these other believers?

They say they are believers, they say they are people of Christ or God or whatever.

And you know, is that an opportunity to say, "Okay, well, let's have a conversation about what you believe and what we believe, and the inherent danger that comes from the gap between those things?"

Or is the approach just to wall that off to say, "That's not our responsibility or our problem.

We need to protect ourselves from it.

But we can't connect with people like that."

Which is against the message in the Bible too, right?

- Right, I think we would be open if people wanted to sit down and have a civil discourse.

I mean, that's it.

I don't think they would come to the table.

- You don't think they would do it.

- Well, think about it this way.

Jesus always had to deal with the scribes and Pharisees.

- Yeah, yeah.

- So there was always conversations where people had different beliefs, this, that and the other.

But truth is truth.

- Yeah.

- You cannot tell that.

So do you want to know the truth or do you want to be right?

So it is more so the fact of we should be shooting for the truth.

And I think there is a big difference, between religion and righteousness.

And I think, some people, they're so busy trying to be religiously correct.

That they forgot what the righteousness of God is.

- Yeah.

- And they will stand strong in something that is totally against scripture based on the fact of they just wanna be religiously correct without being righteously correct.

- Right, but then being religiously correct in a lot of avenues gives them power and control.

- Yes.

- To sit down at a table and get the righteousness and the truth, negates a lot of things, causes a lot of uproar.

- [Barry] It does.

- That's why Jesus was crucified.

- [Barry] Yes.

- He said, "No, we don't want Barabbas.

Let's crucify him."

- And it was mostly religious people- - Yes.

- That started chanting with the rest of the crowd- - Yes.

- Knowing he was an innocent man.

- Yes.

- As far as some people just going with the crowd, because this is what the crowd is saying.

- Yeah.

- But if you are listening to God and the word of God and the righteousness of God, it's not correct.

- Yeah.

- So we have to stand up for what's right.

- Mm-hmm.

- Well, you know, we were talking about this earlier, actually before we came out here, and we were acknowledging that we are all members, different ones, of denominations- - Yep.

- That have lots of white people in there.

- Yeah.

- Sure.

- And be because of that, there are gonna be people in there who are Christian nationalists and who are very progressive.

We have the gamut in the denominations that we are in.

And so actually, black folks are always talking to white people.

- Talking to white.

- Yeah.

- We're always dealing with our brothers and sisters of different hues.

- Mm-hmm.

- We are on the boards and the meetings, we're discussing with them, and we're struggling with them on issues.

And so we are always in that situation.

And so I think that must we do this?

Yes, we must, and yes we have.

But it's gonna be time for some of folk to stand up and to say that I'm not just going to try to get benefits out of the situation, based on my skin color.

- Right, right.

- But what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna follow what thus sayeth the Lord, and I'm gonna work together with people.

And so you find point that amazing organizations, civil rights, Dr.

Barber's movement, now, they always consist of people of many different ethnics.

- All kinds of people, yeah.

- And all of us, we are always working with people of different ethnic groups.

So yes, we are interested, we like diversity, 'cause see, I believe that God created a diverse world.

- Yes, yes.

- He did.

- It's beautiful, so let us enjoy it, amen.

- I must admit, the Episcopal Church, which I'm a part of, is totally having a conversation about racial reconciliation.

And we're having conversations about reparations and all type of things that a lot of denominations would run away from.

The Episcopal Church is embracing them, and I love that.

- And our denomination, Evangelical Covenant Church.

And we have evangelical in our name, which makes it seem like, you know, we're the enemy from the very beginning.

But I'm telling you, there are some sincere men and women of all different nations coming together.

And not, we don't always agree, but we continue to press because we do believe in the beloved community.

- [Barry] Yes.

- We do.

- Is there, and I come back to this, so are these opportunities for us?

Are these opportunities for the black church to bridge that gap, to lead and bridge that?

'Cause to be honest, I mean, I think a lot of people are in a space where they're like, "There isn't an opportunity that it can't be done."

- I don't think that there is.

I think there is an opportunity.

I think crisis is an opportunity.

- Yes.

- Yes.

And I believe that there are many today, in this moment, as we're sitting at this table, there are people who are doing it, who are actively engaged.

And there are lots of white people who are looking at themselves and they're saying, "Wow, what must I do to be safe?"

- Yes, yeah.

- What must I do- - How do I make that?

- To help and to contribute?

- Right.

- And the same thing goes for people who are black or Latino or Asian.

We're all in this moment called to put our money where our mouth is, right?

To put our money where our faith is, to put our bodies, where our faith is.

And so I definitely think that there's opportunity.

The people that say there is no opportunity, I believe for the people who don't really believe in Jesus Christ, it comes out of their mouths that way.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- But if you believe in Jesus Christ, you gotta believe that the leper, the one with the issue of blood, all these different people are welcome to the table.

- Yes, yes.

- They're touchable.

- You know, they come, we believe, and that's part of who we are as people of faith.

- Yeah.

- And when did Christianity become a thing where now, the marginalized, and those who need almost become the enemy?

- Yeah, yeah.

- When did that happen?

- That's, yeah.

- That was not part of what- - It's a long, that's a long journey.

- Right, and that's true.

- And now, we're literally people stopping and saying, "No, we don't need to have empathy and these type things."

And it's like, "Okay, this is new."

- Right.

- And where is it coming from?

- Yeah, well, I would love to have you guys here, all day keep talking about this, but we're out time.

This is a wonderful conversation, and a little bit of hope.

Sure, go ahead.

- Tell them to read the book by Howard Thurman, "Jesus and the Disinherited."

- Okay.

- Yeah.

It's a little bitty book, but a lot of power in it.

- Yeah.

- And Matthew 25, just read all of Matthew 25.

- Oh yeah, yes.

- Just read Matthew 25.

- And Isaiah 58.

- Yes, yes.

- I'm very partial to the book of Luke.

- It's in there too.

- Yeah.

I always think that's the best one, but yeah.

Thank you both.

Thank you all three of you for being here.

Okay, that's gonna do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org, and you can connect with us anytime on social media.

Take care, and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] Across our Masco Family of Companies, our goal is to deliver better living possibilities and make positive changes in the neighborhoods where we live, work, and do business.

Masco, a Michigan company since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

- [Announcer] The DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit PBS.

Through our giving, we are committed to meeting the needs of the communities we serve statewide, to help ensure a bright and thriving future for all.

Learn more at DTEFoundation.com.

- [Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation, and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(gentle music)