- Coming up on "American Black Journal," our "Black Church in Detroit" series looks at young adults and youth in the church.

We'll talk about why some attend church on a regular basis while others are walking away.

Three religious leaders will join me to discuss why some young people are identifying as spiritual rather than religious.

You don't wanna miss today's episode.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

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Thank you.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm your host, Stephen Henderson.

Today, we are continuing our series on "The Black Church in Detroit," which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

For generations, the Black church has been more than just a place for worship.

It has launched civil rights movements, provided support for families, and served as the hub of our community.

But a recent study by the Pew Research Center shows a growing number of young African Americans are leaving the church, or not even entering its doors to begin with.

Here to talk about how the Black church can engage and empower young people are Pastor Ovella Davis of Always in Jesus' Presence Ministries, Reverend JB Fields, a youth pastor at Hartford Memorial Baptist Church, and Bishop Herman Starks from Christ Truth International Ministries.

Welcome all of you to "American Black Journal."

- Thank you.

- So, in some ways, this is a bigger story, right?

I think if you do just a survey of Americans, you'd find many of the same trends that younger people, this current generation, are not as engaged with the church as their parents or their grandparents.

But because it's the African American community, I think it takes on, this data takes on a different importance because of the historical grounding, I guess, that we have all had in the church.

As I said in the open, it is the hub of our community.

So I wanna talk first about how important it is for young African Americans to be introduced to the church and then find their home in the church that they will kind of manage on their own.

And I guess why we think that is slipping away from us right now.

Pastor Davis, I'll start with you.

- Wow, thank you.

There's so many components to this, and I think one of the biggest is the loss of unity in our community.

We've lost unity in the community, and that's where we've had the family breakdown, we've had community breakdown, disparities were happening within the family itself.

So Grandma made us go to church, and that was essential, where you had to go to church no matter what.

- You couldn't say no.

- Oh, you couldn't say no, not even, even though at that time, we didn't really understand why we had to go, it was just culture for us.

And so then, I remember maybe a generation ago, and I talked to parents who said, "I'm not gonna make my kids go to church the way my mama made me go to church."

- Exactly.

- And that is where the danger came in because now, we have a godless and fearless generation, which is, I believe we can attribute a lot of the violence, a lot of the disconnect and detachment from family relationship because we learned that cohesiveness being in the family of faith.

So I see it as essential for so many reasons.

And so if the family is broke down, and there's no unity in the community, no unity in the family, they don't see the church as being anything different.

- So you see it as these external factors kind of leading to the decline in church participation, and not necessarily something that's going on in the church.

- I'm sure, yeah.

You know, when we say "in the church," we're talking about in the local congregation.

But if we look at it from the Biblical perspective, we'd have to ask the question, "Have we been the church to this youth, to this generation?"

- [Stephen] Yeah, yeah.

- Have we been the church, because it's not just the church is not the building.

It is the- - [Stephen] It's the community.

- The congregation and the community, so if we haven't been the church to them, then I think we have a purpose deficit that they don't know the purpose.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- Of why I should do this.

- Wow, wow.

Reverend Fields, what do you think?

- Oh, a couple of thoughts.

Have we been the church?

My goodness.

- That's a really powerful question.

- And have we been the church that they need?

So there are a couple of things to think about.

When we look at the data, we also need to look at the breakdown by ethnic group.

We learned that Black Americans are more spiritual, more religious than the average American.

So there is hope in that, and there is also hope in that we can still be the church that we need to be.

So you asked about finding their church home or finding their home in the church, but I'm wondering about finding their home.

What is their spiritual identity?

Who are their safe adults, in addition to their parents, their grandparents?

What about aunts and uncles?

What about so-and-so teacher or such-and-such counselor, or even the maintenance person?

I had a maintenance person in divinity school who invited me to his church, who told me about early morning prayer.

So is it that we were so reliant on the ritual of religion that we didn't have as much of a personal relationship as we thought?

So then we're inviting people to church to get their own personal relationship, but we're not able to show them what a personal relationship looks like when we're in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

- Yeah.

- I'll just leave that there, so yeah.

- Yeah, yeah.

Reverend Starks?

- Ah, well, thank you, Stephen.

Great question, and I would attribute it to the change in our communities.

The freedom that exists today was not yesterday.

And that's, to me, is part of it.

The children have options now where there were no options.

Me and my house, we gonna serve the Lord, right?

That's what I grew up in.

They don't have to go to church.

And there's more room and freedom in that sense, that they pretty much do what they wanna do.

And the other thing that I was thinking, as we was talking, we know this to be a fact, is that almost, in America today, if not 95% of the churches there, the doors is closed in the evenings.

After five or six o'clock, there's not one single door open.

So the church was the hub of the community.

That no longer exists.

People travel to church, whereas the church was the hub inside of the neighborhood that it existed.

And there was a community relation because it was involved in what was happening inside of that community.

I find if the church is closed, it can't be involved in what's happening in the community.

It's not a safe haven for people to run to when they're in need of A, B, C, and D, food and shelter or running away from a domestic violence situation and whatever.

I remember, as a kid, when I has a issue, I was able to run to the church, and I was able to receive shelter at the church a day or two while we tried to figure out, and I was 15, 16 years old, and I had some issues going on at home.

And I went to the pastor, and he let me stay there, et cetera, you know, for a couple days.

That pretty much do not exist in this day and time.

So, we are seeing the manifestation of that in our current time, and that's a problem.

We need more involvement with the church in order for this thing to work in a manner which it should work, the way that it was actually set up to work.

We're not as, the pastors and the leaders, we're not moving in that vein.

- So I can remember growing up in the city in the '70s and '80s, two things that, whether you belonged to a church or not, you found yourself in church- - Correct.

- Doing, right?

One was preschool.

There were preschools in churches all over Detroit.

I went to two or three of them when I was a kid.

And the other thing is summer programming, right?

When there was no school, and your parents couldn't figure out what to do with you, you went to the church 'cause they always had some sort of program, and I think I would be hard-pressed to find too many of either of those kind of programs in churches today in Detroit.

- And it's funny that you said that because we were having a conversation in the green room.

And that's one of the things that I said is that we should have our own schools, and shame on us for not having our schools, because we are sending our children, and just one, we're sending, as Christians, we're sending our children into a space, for the most part, that don't share the same values, right?

They don't have the same thing going on.

And so when our children come back home, there's a lot on their shoulders because they've encountered a lot that don't exist at home, right?

'Cause it all starts at home.

- Still trying to process that difference.

- Yeah, trying to process it, and not thinking, we don't help them unpack these things.

We just allow it to go because we hadn't thought that far.

And so we're dealing with a larger issue, and that's properly being involved, invested, in our children to make sure, but even outside of that, we should have schools.

- Mm, yeah, but that costs money.

- It does.

- That's another issue, right?

- And what resources are available, but to your point, the Bible says, "Train up a child the way they should go."

- Yes.

- "And when they're old, they won't depart."

And so that preschool training and being in school, being in that environment, you know, that atmosphere that was different than other atmospheres, it was doing something in you spiritually, whether you're recognizing or not.

- [Stephen] Whether you thought so or not.

- And even being in church, like I played for church.

I was a musician before I became pastor.

And we were at a Baptist church.

They didn't have children's church.

There was no children's church.

The children were in the sanctuary with the parents.

And if they got outta hand, you know, the parents would pop.

They learned discipline being in that space.

And another thing that I don't think that we think about is that they learned patience 'cause church was not 45 minutes or an hour when we were going up.

- It was three or four hours.

- Come on, and you had to sit there, but what was that doing in training this individual about patience, about learning how to be still?

You know, I think there were a lot of components that helped to develop us as a people and as a culture that is making a contribution to why we have a lot of activity, we're addicted to stimuli, you know, we need, we have cell phones, and that's the other challenge too.

We have all of these options.

So when we were growing up, there were not, you didn't hear 10 pastors in a day, or 10, 20 messages in a day.

There was one voice, the voice of your pastor.

And maybe we heard Reverend Ike.

- Right, right, they say- - You got home in time to catch it.

- Yeah, but now you have social media that's just feeding all of this information, a lot of times, when people don't have the credentials.

So these youth are listening to whatever they wanna identify as truth.

- But also, are we able to help contextualize what they're listening to on social media?

I think that's one of the biggest opportunities.

There's so, so much information.

But are we helping them to sift through to say, "Hey, this was great."

This may feel great or sound great or look great.

Maybe they have on the newest Jordans, but did they mention anything about the Bible?

Additionally, coming back to your question, I think about a lot about our volunteers, and the fact that it's not just the young people who aren't coming.

First, their parents aren't bringing them.

- That's correct.

- And then we don't have the older generation in the masses that we used to, where we could have the teachers for the vacation Bible school, as well as somebody to cook them a hot meal.

We've attempted to do vacation Bible school for a couple of years now, since the pandemic, and it just hasn't been the same.

- It doesn't work.

- Yeah, so we've had more volunteers than students.

- Wow.

- But now, even let's consider, what about transportation?

Because people are not walking to church either.

And all of the different options.

Even thinking back to something that you mentioned earlier made me think about Sunday morning, everything used to be closed.

- That's true.

- I hear tell of it.

But I know now, I mean, my life has been the movies are open and now we have basketball leagues.

- You can go do other things.

- Yeah, there's so many options.

Are we set apart?

Are we willing to be set apart?

- Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you were gonna say something?

- Yeah, I was thinking, and as he was speaking about that, again, the statement, "It starts at home," is extremely important, right?

With the new laws that's available now, you have where they can smoke marijuana, and most children nowadays come to school smelling like they grew up in the plant factory, you know, manufacturing marijuana.

These options that we're speaking about are harmful, extremely harmful, and it's upon us, and trying to find ways to deal with these things is where the problem is at.

And even on TV, we was talking about the content, right?

The content that is available to the children and people, you know, at large.

Sifting through these things, the opportunities that come to Christians is the same that come to them.

So when we trying to say that we are set apart, and we set apart for a reason, a blessing, it appears in their mind, they're getting a blessing, we're not getting anything over here.

- [Stephen] Yeah, yeah.

- And that's a problem, you know, in the sense of you can only be a star if you go over there, if you do what they're doing.

And that's what our children is warned against, and they spirit is trying to be successful, and from that perspective, and do great and mighty things when it doesn't even appear that it's happening over here.

- Yeah, yeah, so I wonder if each of you can talk a little about things that you see in your church community that seem to be working with young people, things that maybe you're trying, or maybe that people are suggesting that you think are a hint at what could reverse this trend.

Pastor Ovella?

- Yeah, what we have learned is to let them own it, which means to have them give us their understanding of what church is about, what we are looking for as outcomes, and what do you think that we can do that would attract your population or your generation?

And so finding that type of conversation, we've seen results of that because now they own it, where they're not told that they have to go to church, and now it becomes a place of community again.

And it gives them the sense of fulfillment and ownership because they created something, and it happened.

And so we see that they wanna continue that.

- Right.

- So that's- - So can you give me an example of something like that?

- So one of them is our outreach, which is Code 22, which is our violence reduction program.

And so every 22nd in Detroit is a citywide day of peace and healing, and we've been given proclamations, Mayor Duggan and Mayor Bing, and we look to get one from Mayor Sheffield.

And so on the 22nd, it's a day that we focus on intentional ways to create peace.

So we ask the youth, "What can we do that we can create a program that surrounds peace?"

And they say, "Well, maybe we can have a rap part of it that we do raps about peace, or, you know, and we wear white every 22nd, and so what if we create a T-shirt, you know, our own Code 22?"

So whatever they create, we tell 'em, "Yeah, let's do it."

And so now they own it, so on the 22nd, we'll have events, especially in the summertime, strong, where the youth, it's youth-driven.

- It's theirs.

- Yeah, and we get 'em into the church, and, you know, we implement, you know, talking about Jesus, which, I'll just divert for a second.

I think this is a huge issue because I think that Jesus has been misrepresented.

- Come on, come on- - To the youth?

- Come on.

- And so what do they hear and know about Jesus is from their friends that oppose it.

"Well, he was, you know, a white man with blue eyes, and the Bible has been," so everything that would be healthy for them spiritually has been under attack.

- Wow, wow.

- Yeah, so we can't get 'em in the space, whereas you can say, we can contextualize it, then they're gonna keep, you know, being drawn away to what feels, you know, good to them.

Well, maybe if I burn sage, and then, you know, I can be spiritual, so, creating that environment that they own, and to meet them where they are too, which is on social media.

- Yeah, yeah.

Reverend Fields?

- A number of things.

Oof, definitely help them to own it.

Ask, "Where do we wanna go for our next hangout?"

So monthly we do our best to go to the movies.

In the summer, we go to Cedar Point.

We even started going to a rage room.

You know, like really understanding what does this society need, what do I need?

And then also how can we introduce it to our students in a safe way?

So those are a couple of things.

Our college circle has been very big.

I'm so grateful for the volunteers who have graduated college, came back to Hartford and said, "I want to be involved."

And I let them know, "These are some options, but please don't get overworked," because, again, there are few volunteers doing all of these tasks.

So our college circle has a Christmas breakfast with the pastor, and we also have Baccalaureate Sunday, as well as a sendoff.

So there's just times for us to gather, sometimes in the church, sometimes outside of the church, because I think that's an important lesson that this next generation needs to see now too.

- Yeah.

- As we're driving in the car to our men's basketball team game, like, "Let's talk about Scripture.

Maybe this is the Word that you hear today.

And the Word is coming from all of the different students."

So having more than one adult there to kind of make sure that we're in lane with what the spirit is telling us, or has told us, has been very helpful.

Additionally, we can think about back-to-school rallies, trunk-or-treat, outreach activities, where we invite students in who may not attend church.

- Right.

- Hartford has a saying, "You may not belong to Hartford, but Hartford belongs to you."

But my response to that is, "Are we welcoming well, and are we inviting widely?"

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Reverend Starks?

- So, you know, I'm a parent.

So my children grew up experiencing church in the home, as well as outside of the home.

They had microphones, they were reading Scripture out the world.

They participated in praise and worship.

And even now, they're older, 18 and 20 years old, they're participating even more.

But even some of the other children that was in the church, I allowed them to have a platform, right?

They would see themselves on tape, in recordings.

I took some of the, we had rap, so they created Christian rap songs.

They did mime.

You know, I had allowed them to be free to participate in praise and worship, and they felt good.

Even on Youth Day, they was able to invite their friends, like now they invite their friends, and their friends are able to see them participating in church, and they keep coming back, right?

They coming back 'cause they're enjoying the freedom that they have in being able to express themselves in the world.

But part of the other thing that I found that was extremely good, I brought my children to, when we was organizing and doing, you know, activism type of work.

Took them to Lansing and different places, to shelters, and showed them that giving back was extremely important, that this could be anybody, could be us.

We never know what circumstances happen in life that cause an individual to be here, so have no judgment in that regard.

And I think that was extremely important, where they grew up experiencing these things close and personal, right?

Close and personal to the extent that they felt compassionate in they heart to help somebody.

They felt, you know, my children in a minute, they'll say, "Dad, can I have some money to give these people, they need some help."

Okay, of course, you can do that.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- I taught them also, in addition to the importance of voting, the importance of knocking on doors and talking to people in the community about things that you believe in.

So I involved them early on all the way through participating, and not just them, but other children that was in the church.

And so, the response, we got these young folks, as young adults now, are extremely involved.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- They're passionate about it, and they want more and more, like when Pastor Ovella was talking about Code 22, they was able to participate in that, right?

When she had the statewide, on that day to participate in the summer, in the marches, and the different things, children like that, and then they even also like it even more so when they're able to come to an event, and there's other children, they're from other places.

Kids, they not like us, they can come together, and they instantly start talking and bonding- - They figure it out.

- And having relationships.

So I think that's one of the things, that the churches come together even more and allow the children to create relationships and friendships, extremely important.

- And I say also, the youth relevance, like, what is going on in their world today?

They are inundated with violence.

I had a circle with some young men, 14 years old, at a school, and I asked them, "What is the major concern in your life and in your community?"

And I thought they were gonna say violence and gun violence.

You know what they said?

They said, "Girls having babies, just not taking care of them."

- Wow.

- And these were, those were 14-year-old boys- - Talking about girls, the teenage pregnancy that are not taken care of.

So like, we don't even know that they're faced with that challenge, that it's affecting them.

And so those type of circles to talk about what's relevant in their world can help the church to become relevant because we can give solutions, we can give some directions.

So I think that's really important to look at what's relevant to today's youth and create something around that need.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, opportunities to grow, opportunities to learn, opportunities to lovingly correct because also, as they bring forward ideas of, yes, this is a big concern, then we can continue the conversation, "Well, where are the fathers?"

"Well, when do you think you'll be ready to be a father?"

- Right.

- "Well, what is a father?

Did you have a father?

Did you have a close relationship with your father?"

So I'm grateful to hear that, whether it's Code 22, or whether it's leading in liturgy, that we are giving opportunities, or picking a movie or a dinner place for the college circle and the teenagers, helping them to grow into, this is how you run a church.

It's more than just Sunday morning.

- Right, absolutely.

Let me tap into that.

You said something so important.

As a parent, again, I'm at the PTA meetings and at the school, and my daughter was recently, last year, was organizing to do the, sign-up the 18-year-olds to be able to vote and things they need.

At these meetings, I was one out of three dads- - Yeah, yeah.

- That was in these meetings.

And as the year went on, I became almost one of the only males with all the mothers in these meetings, so the fathers are absent.

Not sure what those circumstances are, but what I was able to see was that, and how I become the parent, by proxy, of all these children, right, through my child 'cause she's outgoing, school president, right?

So I become their dad because they trust her.

So we can build bonds through your own child and the relationships that they do have, absolutely.

- That's great, definitely.

- Yes.

- I would love to keep going with this all day, but we are out of time.

- Are we already?

- We are out of time.

But I wanna thank all three of you for coming and- - Thank you.

- Having this conversation.

There's a lot of work to do- - Yes.

- To make sure that the next generation gets back into the church.

- Well, thank you for your work.

- Yeah, oh, of course.

(chuckles) - All the best.

- So that is gonna do it for us this week.

You can find more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org, and you can connect with us anytime on social media.

Take care, and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] Across our Masco family of companies, our goal is to deliver better living possibilities and make positive changes in the neighborhoods where we live, work, and do business.

Masco, a Michigan company since 1929.

- [Announcer] Support also provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

- [Announcer] The DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit PBS.

Through our giving, we are committed to meeting the needs of the communities we serve statewide to help ensure a bright and thriving future for all.

Learn more at DTEFoundation.com.

- [Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

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