PARIS: OUR DATA IS EVERYWHERE.

BUT WHILE TECH GIANTS LIKE AMAZON, META, GOOGLE AND MICROSOFT ARE MAKING BANK, WE, THE PEOPLE SUPPLYING THE DATA, AIN’T MAKING NOTHING.

A 2022 BROOKINGS INSTITUTION STUDY FOUND THAT BLACK INNOVATORS AND ARTISTS COLLECTIVELY LOSE ABOUT $30 BILLION EACH YEAR IN UNPAID DIGITAL LABOR AND UNCREDITED INTELLECTUAL-PROPERTY CIRCULATION.

THAT’S RIGHT, ALL THOSE TWEETS, TIKTOK’S AND OTHER VIDEOS ON THE INTERNET ARE BOOST IN COMPANIES THAT HOST THEM WITHOUT ANY SORT OF OWNERSHIP OR COMPENSATION FOR THE USERS.

ESSENTIALLY, THAT IS WORKING FOR FREE.

AND WE KNOW BLACK FOLKS STOPPED DOING THAT A LONG TIME AGO.

THIS TREND RUNS DEEP, ALL THE WAY BACK TO MUSICIANS LIKE ARTHUR BIG BOY CROWED UP NOT RECEIVING INITIAL ROYALTIES OR ANY COPYRIGHT FOR THAT’S ALL RIGHT MAMA, THE SONG HE WROTE BUT ELVIS PRESLEY MADE POPULAR.

AND YOU KNOW THE KING OF ROCK ’N’ ROLL GOT HE WAS DUE.

THE POINT IS, IF AI, THE VERY THING COLLECTING DATA FROM ALL OVER THE INTERNET, STANDS TO TAKE OVER NEARLY 300 MILLION JOBS IN THE COMING YEARS, IT SEEMS LIKE THE PEOPLE CONTRIBUTING TO THE WORLDWIDE DATABASE OF INFORMATION AT OUR FINGERTIPS SHOULD GET SOME KIND OF CYBER-SEVERANCE.

I KNOW IT IS HARD TO THINK OF SOMEONE POSTING A GET READY WITH ME VIDEO AS LABOR, BUT LET ME PUT IT TO YOU IN A SINGLE PHRASE.

DIGITAL SHARECROPPING.

WE ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT SECOND WORD.

MANY OF OUR ANCESTORS FARMED ON OTHER PEOPLE’S LAND ONLY TO BE EXPLOITED AND KEPT IN A CYCLE OF POVERTY, ALL WHILE FACING THE INTIMIDATION AND THREATS OF JIM CROW.

IN THE DIGITAL AGE, IT MEANS CREATING CONTENT, WHETHER IT IS FOR A PURPOSE -- PERSONAL PURPOSES OR BUSINESS, AND PUTTING IT ON SOMEONE ELSE’S PLATFORM.

IT SEEMS GREAT UNTIL YOUR CONTENT IS REMOVED FOR VIOLATING SOME OBSCURE LINE IN A SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS’S TERMS OF SERVICE AND HAVING YOUR ACCOUNT DELETED.

OR UNTIL YOUR ACCOUNT GETS HACKED.

OR UNTIL YOUR MYSPACE PAGE AND ALL THE HARD WORK YOU DID TO MATCH YOUR PAGE’S SONG WITH THE BACKGROUND JUST POOFS AND DISAPPEARS.

MY FELLOW MILLENNIALS KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

SO WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

IT COULD BE A POLICY TO REGULATE DIGITAL SHARECROPPING, WHICH THE U.S.

DOES NOT CURRENTLY HAVE.

OR PERHAPS IT IS US FINDING WAYS TO TRULY OWN OUR CONTENT ONCE AND FOR ALL.

BECAUSE THE MORE DATA WE GIVE UP, THE MORE OWNERSHIP WE ARE LOSING.

WE KNOW THE PROBLEM.

NOW, LET’S GET TO THE ROOT OF IT.

I AM PARIS ALSTON AND THIS IS "ROOTED."

WE’RE CONFRONTING THE CLIMATE CRISIS TO THE LENS OF JUSTICE.

JOINING ME ARE TWO POWERFUL VOICES.

DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER ENVIRONMENTAL AND CLIMATE JUSTICE, AND CLIMATE JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT.

WELCOME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

.

PARIS: WHAT EXACTLY IS CLIMATE JUSTICE, AND WHY SHOULD WE CARE?

>> RIGHT NOW A LOT OF US ARE EXPERIENCING WHAT CLIMATE CONCERNS AND THE CLIMATE CATASTROPHE THAT WE ARE IN, GIVEN THE EXTREME WEATHER PATTERNS THAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND A LOT OF THAT IS DUE TO MAN-MADE DECISIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE MADE OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS.

AND DECIDING CONDITIONS WHERE THAT LIVES IS TYPICALLY IN COMMUNITIES THAT ARE ALREADY OVERBURDENED WITH A NUMBER OF OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS.

AND THE INTERSECTION OF ENVIRONMENTAL INJUSTICE DUE TO REDLINING, DUE TO DECISIONS OF KNOT IN MY OWN BACKYARD NIMBY IS HIM, AND ENSURING THE GLOBAL MAJORITY WITHIN THIS COUNTRY AND LITERALLY GLOBALLY WHO HAS FACED ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS ARE NOW ALSO INTERSECTION ONLY DEALING WITH CLIMATE INJUSTICE.

WHICH MEANS THE WEATHER PATTERNS, FLOODING, HURRICANES, TORNADOES, WILDFIRES THAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING, ARE ALSO SHOWING UP IN THOSE SAME COMMUNITIES.

SO THAT IS KIND OF WHAT WE CALL CLIMATE INJUSTICES.

IT IS BECAUSE THOSE SAME COMMUNITIES BEAR THE BRUNT OF THOSE ENVIRONMENTAL.

PARIS: ARE YOU ABLE TO MOBILIZE PEOPLE AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL OR ARE THERE STILL SOME CHALLENGES BEING FACED IN TERMS OF ALL THE OTHER COMPETING PRIORITIES THAT PEOPLE HAVE IN THEIR EVERYDAY EXISTENCE?

>> I THINK THAT PEOPLE RECOGNIZE WHAT IT IS THAT THEY ARE EXPERIENCING.

HOWEVER, WE ARE IN A TIME NOW WHERE MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION IS AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH.

AND SO, THE PEOPLE POWER HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE.

THE NAACP, EVEN SINCE THE OF SECTION -- INCEPTION BEFORE ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE, RECOGNIZED THERE WAS A LEVEL OF RACISM INVOLVED IN ENVIRONMENTAL DECISIONS.

BUT NOW UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE AN ADMINISTRATION WHO IS WORKING OVERTIME TO TELL PEOPLE THAT THESE CLIMATE RELATED ISSUES OR ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES ARE NOT DUE TO INDUSTRIES, FOR TECH COMPANIES WHEN IT COMES TO DATA CENTERS OR OTHER INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE PLACING INDUSTRIAL POLLUTION IN THE COMMUNITIES.

SO, IT IS NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES BUT THERE IS A LEVEL OF NARRATIVE JUSTICE STRATEGY THAT HAS TO BE A PART OF OUR WORK IN A VERY INTENTIONAL WAY TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE INTENTIONAL MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION, TO TRY TO CONFUSE PEOPLE ABOUT WHO ACTUALLY IS AT FAULT FOR THE CLIMATE CONCERNS THAT WE ARE SEEING.

PARIS: YOU HAVE REPORTED EXTENSIVELY ON THE ROLLBACK OF CLIMATE JUSTICE FUNDING UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SO, IN THIS TIME, WE’RE SEEING COMMUNITIES ATTACKED FROM ALL DIFFERENT SIDES.

WHAT CAN EVERYDAY PEOPLE DO TO MOBILIZE AND TO STAND UP AGAINST THESE INJUSTICES?

>> IT IS HARD.

ONE OF THE ISSUES IS THAT SO MUCH OF CLIMATE INJUSTICE AND ENVIRONMENTAL INJUSTICE -- I SAY BOTH OF THOSE BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT IS ABOUT POLLUTION, NOT RISING SEA LEVELS.

BUT THEY ARE TWO THINGS SYSTEMIC RACISM IS CAUSED BY SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE SYSTEMIC SOLUTIONS TO REALLY FIX THE PROBLEMS.

LIKE, YOU CANNOT GET LET OUT OF THE WATER IN FLINT WITHOUT GOING IN AND REPLACING EVERY ONE OF THOSE PIPES.

A LOT OF THESE THINGS I THINK IT FEEL REALLY CHALLENGING IN THE DECISION-MAKING PROCESS AND THE REASON THAT THING THAT IS PUTTING YOUR LIFE AT RISK WAS DONE BY SOMEBODY ELSE, BY YOUR GOVERNMENT OR BY CORPORATIONS.

IT IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU DON’T REALLY HAVE THE POWER WITHIN YOUR COMMUNITY TO SOLVE DIRECTLY THE PROBLEM.

OR IF YOU DO, IT IS A DIFFICULT SOLUTION.

BUT I DO THINK THAT INFORMATION IS REALLY USEFUL AND POWERFUL.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME OF THESE THINGS, ESPECIALLY AT SOME THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN SO LONG-STANDING, THAT IT IS EASY TO THINK OF THEM AS NORMAL, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE NOT GETTING OUT OF THE BUBBLE OF THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU GREW UP AND ARE FROM.

SO BEING ABLE TO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING AND KNOW WHO MAKES DECISIONS TO ALLOW THEM TO HAPPEN AND MAKING SURE PEOPLE AROUND YOU KNOW IT AS WELL CAN BE A REALLY AMAZING CATALYST FOR CREATING THAT LARGER CHANGE.

I THINK THAT KNOWING WHAT IS GOING ON LOCALLY AND DOING EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO LET EVERYONE AROUND YOU UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF IT IS SORT OF A POWERFUL FIRST STEP TO BEING ABLE TO ADDRESS THESE SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS.

PARIS: ONE THING THAT I AM CURIOUS ABOUT IS, FOR SO LONG, CLIMATE, ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE HAS REALLY FELT KIND OF HEADY.

AND IT’S NOT UNTIL YOU START TO SEE THE RAMIFICATIONS OF LIVING NEAR A POWER PLANT, OR YOUR WATER BEING POLLUTED, ETC., THAT YOU REALLY START TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT MANIFESTS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU MAY NOT FEEL LIKE THIS IS AN URGENT ISSUE.

YOU MAY JUST BE TRYING TO PAY YOUR BILLS OR JUST TRYING TO GET BY.

SO HOW DO YOU MOBILIZE PEOPLE TO SEE THAT THIS IS AN EXISTENTIAL ISSUE?

>> ONE OF THE IMPORTANT COMPONENTS OF HOW ENVIRONMENTAL CLIMATE JUSTICE ISSUES ARE DIFFERENT THAN LARGER CONSERVATION OR MAINSTREAM ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES IS HAVING THAT THROUGH-LINE TO THE COMMUNITY AND AT THE INHERENTLY LOCAL LEVEL OF HOW THOSE CONCERNS SHOW UP.

A LOT OF PEOPLE NOW, THEY RECOGNIZE THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THEIR ENERGY BILLS ARE GOING UP, THEIR UTILITY BILLS ARE GOING UP.

AND THAT IS AN IMMEDIATE CONCERN THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE RECOGNIZING A SHOWING UP.

THEN OUR JOB IS TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THE WHY.

TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU HAVE A DATA CENTER THAT IS COMING ON BOARD AND UTILIZING A LOT OF THE UTILITIES THAT IS STRAINING THE GREAT, THAT THAT, THEN, IMPACTS YOUR UTILITY BILLS.

THAT EXTREME HEAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IS DUE TO CLIMATE-RELATED CONCERNS, CAN ALSO CHANGE WHAT YOUR UTILITY BILLS LOOK LIKE.

THAT THAT IS NOT NORMAL, FOR EXAMPLE, TO HAVE TO USE BOTTLED WATER WITHIN YOUR COMMUNITIES.

AND THE REASON WHY YOU MAY, FOR EXAMPLE, NEED TO USE BOTTLED WATER, IS BECAUSE THE WATER INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE WATER TREATMENT PLANT THAT SHOULD BE STATE-OF-THE-ART IS NOT IN YOUR COMMUNITY DUE TO ENVIRONMENTAL RACISM.

AND SO, IT IS ABOUT PEOPLE SEEING WHAT THE ISSUE IS AND THEN TAKING THAT STEP BACK AND HELPING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ROOT CAUSE IS.

AND TO THE EARLIER POINT AROUND MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION, THAT IS A CLEAR STRATEGY, BUT IT IS ABOUT MOBILIZING FOLKS TO WHAT THE ROOT CAUSES ARE.

PARIS: YOU MENTIONED THOSE DATA CENTERS.

WILLY ALSO POINTED OUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL FOOTPRINT THEY CAN HAVE.

I ALSO KNOW THEY ARE TAKING SOME JOBS IN LOCATIONS WHERE THESE DATA CENTERS ARE POPPING UP.

SO WHAT ONUS SHOULD BE ON THE CORPORATIONS THAT COME INTO COMMUNITIES, POTENTIALLY KNOWING THE IMPACT THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE ENVIRONMENTAL AND OTHERWISE?

WHAT CAN THEY BE DOING TO MAKE THAT RELATIONSHIP BETTER AND MORE SYMBIOTIC?

WILLY: ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THE DATA CENTERS, THE TWO BIG ONES, GROK, XAI IN MEMPHIS, AND THIS PROPOSED ONE IN BESSEMER, ALABAMA.

THERE’S A HUGE, AND IT SEEMS DELIBERATE LACK OF PUBLIC INFORMATION.

THESE ARE BIG DECISIONS BEING MADE ABOUT LOCAL RESOURCES, ABOUT LOCAL LAND USE, ABOUT LOCAL POLLUTION, AND ABOUT THE CLIMATE WRIT LARGE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT CARBON POLLUTION THAT COMES FROM THESE VERY LARGE DATA CENTERS.

TO BE SYMBIOTIC WOULD BE TO DO WHAT THEY DON’T WANT TO DO IS TO HAVE CLEAR, STRAIGHTFORWARD PUBLIC INPUT.

BUT IN THESE INSTANCES THERE HAS BEEN A HUGE DELIBERATE EFFORT TO AVOID THAT.

PARIS: ARE THERE ANY INSTANCES IN THE COUNTRY WERE THAT HAS BEEN DONE SUCCESSFULLY?

>> I WOULD SAY NOT NECESSARILY DONE SUCCESSFULLY.

BUT I WOULD SAY TO WILLY’S POINT, ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE TRIED TO DO IS DEVELOP A FRONTLINE FRAMEWORK SO THAT IT IS VERY CLEAR FOR THESE DATA CENTERS, FOR THE TECH COMPANIES, AS WELL AS FOR REGULATING AGENCIES, TO UNDERSTAND A UNITED FRONT FROM THE COMMUNITY- PERSPECTIVE OF HOW THEY SHOULD BE ENGAGING.

WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE MEANINGFUL COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT THAT PEOPLE DON’T WANT THEIR JOBS TO BE AUTOMATED, THAT RESOURCES WITHIN THE COMMUNITY ARE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT, THAT WE LOOK AT THESE ISSUES INTERSECTIONALITY.

I THINK THAT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR TECH COMPANIES TO BE BETTER.

AND THEY HAVE A CLEAR FRAMEWORK THAT THEY CAN WORK OFF OF AND NOW THE ONUS IS ON THEM TO ACTUALLY ADOPT THAT INTO THEIR EVERYDAY PRACTICES.

PARIS: THE CONVERSATION AROUND TECHNOLOGY HAS HISTORICALLY NOT PUT THE ENVIRONMENT AT THE FOREFRONT FOR A LONG TIME NOW ESPECIALLY WITH AI.

IT IS AT OUR FINGERTIPS AND IT HAS THIS IMPACT.

SO HOW DO WE BALANCE OUT THE NEED FOR REVOLUTIONARY TECHNOLOGY WITH THE NEED FOR TAKING CARE OF OUR PLANET?

WILLY: I WOULD SAY WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT AT THE END OF THE DAY?

CAN YOU ASK A CHATBOT WHATEVER IT IS YOU WANT TO ASK AND MAKE A VIDEO, OR DO YOU WANT A GOOD CLIMATE?

THAT IS REASONABLY WHAT THE STAKES ARE RIGHT NOW.

IT IS PRETTY OBVIOUS WHAT THE ANSWER IS.

PARIS: AS THINGS TO MOVE FORWARD, WHAT ARE A COUPLE DIFFERENT POLICIES YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE COMMUNITIES PUSH FOR TWO ENSURE CLIMATE JUSTICE AS THIS ADMINISTRATION CONTINUES TO UNFOLD?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT CLEAN ENERGY POLICIES, THAT POLICIES THAT TRANSITION US AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS, ARE THE POLICIES THAT THEY ARE TARGETING THE MOST.

TO ENSURE WE’RE RAMPING UP FOSSIL FUEL USAGE, WE’RE RAMPING UP OUR ABILITY TO GET THESE DATA CENTERS ONLINE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THESE COMMUNITIES TO CONTINUE TO BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN SHOWING UP ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO HIGHLIGHT THAT WE RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS A TIME TO NOT NECESSARILY REPEAT THE ISSUES AND CONCERNS THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST.

WHEN A PLANS CAME ONLINE, WE SAW WHAT THAT MEANT FOR OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

WE ARE APPROACHING MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

A LOT OF THESE DECISIONS ARE HAPPENING AT OUR STATE AND AT OUR LOCAL LEVELS.

AND SO IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO HOLD IN -- THOSE INDIVIDUALS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE DECISIONS BEING MADE.

TO ENSURE WE HAVE PEOPLE IN OFFICE WHO REPRESENT THE POLICIES AND WHO REPRESENT THE TYPES OF CONCERNS THAT WE FEEL ARE MOST IMPORTANT.

AND THAT CLIMATE JUSTICE HAS TO BE A PART OF THE QUESTIONING THAT WE ARE DOING FOR INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE GOING INTO THESE POSITIONS AND UTILIZING TAXPAYER DOLLARS.

PARIS: IF FOLKS WANT TO GET INVOLVED WITH THEIR LOCAL NAACP CHAPTERS, ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE EFFORTS, HOW CAN THEY DO THAT?

>> YES, WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU, NUMBER ONE.

YOU CAN GO TO WWW.NAACP.ORG.

THERE’S INFORMATION ABOUT BECOMING A MEMBER.

WE HAVE ENVIRONMENTAL CLIMATE JUSTICE COMMITTEES AT A LOCAL LEVEL, AT THE STATE LEVEL.

THEY WORK CLOSELY WITH THE CENTER FOR ENVIRONMENTAL CLIMATE JUSTICE AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL.

PARIS: THIS HAS BEEN WONDERFUL.

I KNOW THIS WON’T BE THE LAST CONVERSATION WE HAVE SO THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH.

RIGHT NOW ON "ROOTED," WE ARE JOINED BY A TECH ACTIVIST, SPIRITUAL LEADER, AND ADVOCATE FOR BLACK LIBERATION THROUGH JUSTICE.

REVEREND HOPE IS ASKING THE HARD QUESTIONS.

WHO BENEFITS FROM OUR DIGITAL FOOTPRINTS?

HOW CAN ETHICAL AI BE A TOOL FOR EMPOWERMENT RATHER THAN OPPRESSION.

LET’S GET RIGHT INTO IT.

CAN AI REALLY BE ETHICAL?

REVEREND HOPE: IT CAN, ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS IMPERATIVE IT IS ETHICAL FOR THE SAKE OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS AS WELL AS AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND PEOPLE OF AFRO DIASPORA.

YOU ARE SEEING LARGE COMPANIES, BIG COMPANIES USING AI TO FIRE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE.

ETHICAL AI IS ABOUT TEACHING PEOPLE NEW SKILLS, NOT REPLACING THEM.

FOR US IT BECOMES IMPERATIVE MORALLY AND ETHICALLY AS A SOCIETY TO CREATE SYSTEMS IN PLACE WHERE ONE, THE TECHNOLOGY IS REFLECTING OR BEING SHAPED BY US, NOT JUST SOMETHING THAT WE USE BUT BEING SHAPED BY OUR MORALITY AND THE KIND OF SOCIETY WE WANT.

PARIS: HONESTLY, IT IS ALREADY BEING SHAPED BY OUR DATA, THE THINGS WE DO ON THE INTERNET.

SO HOW DO WE STATE OWNERSHIP IN THIS SPACE WHEN WE REALLY DON’T CONTROL IT.

REVEREND HOPE: THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

FOR THOSE CONCERNED ABOUT PRIVACY WHICH IS A HUGE CONCERN, THERE IS SOFTWARE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO OPT OUT.

SO REALLY JUST OVERALL AI LITERACY, KNOWLEDGE.

SO WE HAVE TO EDUCATE OURSELVES ABOUT WHAT IS OUT THERE.

WHAT ARE THE TRADE-OFFS YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY GIVING AWAY IN TERMS OF YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION, PRIVATE INFORMATION BY USING MUCH OF THIS SOFTWARE?

THEN IN THE MIDST OF THAT, I WOULD SAY ANOTHER LAYER TO THIS IS SUPPORTING LEGAL AND ALSO LEGISLATIVE DOCUMENTS, LEGISLATIVE BILLS THAT CAN SUPPORT AND ADVOCATE FOR OUR PRIVACY, ADVOCATE FOR HOW THIS TECHNOLOGY IS BEING USED ON POPULATIONS AND ON US.

PARIS: WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF THINGS WE CAN OPT OUT OF?

IT IS NOT ALWAYS CLEAR.

I THINK ABOUT WHEN WE GO TO THE AIRPORT AND YOU HAVE AN EYE SCAN, YOU CAN OPT OUT OF THAT.

REVEREND HOPE: ABSOLUTELY.

THE EYE SCAN AT THE AIRPORT, YOU CAN OPT OUT OF THAT.

ALSO JUST USING OTHER SOFTWARE.

I AM SURE MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY SIGN ON FOR A NEW SOFTWARE GIVES YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO EITHER OPT IN OR OPT OUT.

WHETHER THAT IS SOMETHING LIKE, I AM NOT GOING TO NAME A SPECIFIC BRAND, BUT THERE ARE OTHER PERMUTATIONS OF WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE.

IT JUST ALLOWS PEOPLE TO BE DISCERNING AND TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF AI AGENT TOOLS, AI AUTOMATION TOOLS THAT IF YOU SIGN IN, IT GIVES YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT, BUT IN ORDER TO DO THAT THEY NEED ACCESS TO PRETTY MUCH YOUR LIFE.

AND SO THERE IS A TRADE-OFF THERE.

WITH THE HOPE GROUP DOES IS WE HELP EDUCATE PEOPLE ON WAYS THAT THEY CAN MAYBE GET AROUND THAT, IF YOU WILL, TO PROTECT THEMSELVES BUT ALSO STILL BE ABLE TO USE THESE TOOLS.

BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY OF THESE TOOLS ARE NEUTRAL.

THESE TOOLS ARE THERE TO BE A FORCE MULTIPLIER AND TO PROVIDE, FOR MANY PEOPLE, AN OPPORTUNITY, ESPECIALLY SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS AND ENTREPRENEURS, IT ALLOWS THEM TO DO THINGS THAT MOSTLY BIGGER COMPANIES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO UNTIL NOW.

PARIS: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE AT A LOT OF BIGGER COMPANIES, THERE ARE LAYOFFS HAPPENING AS A RESULT OF THE THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE BY AUTOMATION.

I AM THINKING ABOUT THIS PAST AFRO TECH CONFERENCE IN HOUSTON WHICH HIGHLIGHTED THE IMPACT OF AUTOMATION FIRSTHAND.

OVER 22,000 TECH LAYOFFS HAPPENED THIS YEAR WITH 16,000 IN FEBRUARY ALONE.

AT AFRO TECH, PEOPLE WERE LEARNING IN REAL TIME THAT THEY WERE BEING LAID OFF.

SO WHY DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT AI CAN BE A SOLUTION WHEN IT IS CAUSING A REALLY BIG ISSUE ON THE JOB FRONT?

REVEREND HOPE: I WOULD NOT SAY IT IS AI, THE TECHNOLOGY ITSELF CAUSING THE PROBLEM.

IT IS UNFORTUNATELY DECISIONS BEING MADE ON THE CORPORATE LEVEL THAT ARE REALLY AT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

AND THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM, SO MANY PROBLEMS IN THIS COUNTRY AND ALSO ABROAD.

GREED IS REAL.

THIS IS NOT PROGRESS IN TERMS OF TECHNOLOGY, WHEN YOU ARE USING THE TECHNOLOGY TO REPLACE PEOPLE.

THAT IS NOT PROGRESS.

PROGRESS IS ALLOWING PEOPLE TO LEARN AND EDUCATING THEM WITH NEW SKILLS SO THEY CAN ADAPT TO THIS NEW WORKFORCE THAT WE ARE IN.

THE TECHNOLOGY RIGHT NOW IN THE MAINSTREAM IS NOT AT A LEVEL WHERE IT CAN JUST OPERATE ON ITSELF.

IN FACT, THERE HAS BEEN STUDIES SHOWN EVEN RECENTLY AT HARVARD THAT HAVE INDICATED THE AI TECHNOLOGY IN GENERATIVE AI IS BEST USED IN COLLABORATION WITH OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

AND THAT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO GET OUTPUT, THE MOST PRODUCTIVE OUTPUT.

BY REPLACING THE PEOPLE WITH AI, THERE IS A WHOLE OTHER SET OF CONCERNS THAT YOU HAVE.

THERE HAS BEEN DATA THAT HAS COME UP IN THE LAST YEAR THAT HAS SHOWN THERE HAS BEEN AI THAT HAVE ESSENTIALLY MADE REALLY ILL CHOICES AND DECISIONS WHEN PUT INTO CERTAIN SCENARIOS.

PUTTING MISINFORMATION OUT THERE.

THERE’S SO MANY THINGS THAT ARE QUESTIONABLE.

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, MY COLLEAGUES THAT ARE SILICON VALLEY AND CAMBRIDGE WORKING ON THIS STUFF, MANY OF THEM DON’T EVEN KNOW HOW OR WHY DIFFERENT AI’S ARE ACTING AND OPERATING LIKE THIS.

PARIS: THEY ARE MOVING SO FAST.

AND IT IS BENEFICIAL, RIGHT?

I, ALONG WITH MANY OTHER PEOPLE, USE AI ON A REGULAR BASIS TO DO THOSE MUNDANE TASKS, OR EVEN TO HELP THINK THROUGH A PROBLEM.

BUT WE KNOW THAT THERE HAS NOT BEEN A WHOLE LOT OF REGULATION UP UNTIL THIS POINT.

BUT THIS IS CONVERSATION THAT IS GROWING.

AND I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH U.S.

SENATOR ED MARKEY ON AN AI BILL OF RIGHTS.

TELL US MORE ABOUT THIS AND HOW IT WOULD PROTECT BLACK COMMUNITIES IN PARTICULAR.

REVEREND HOPE: SENATOR ED MARKEY AND OTHERS AND MYSELF ARE WORKING TOWARDS WHAT IS CALLED THE AI CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, WHICH WOULD ALLOW US -- NOT US, BUT ALLOW THE UNITED STATES TO FINALLY HAVE A FRAMEWORK TO REALLY START REGULATING AND TO START CREATING MORE PROTECTIONS FOR PEOPLE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT BILL OF RIGHTS IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, THOSE ARE THERE TO PROTECT PEOPLE, NOT JUST PROPHETS.

AND RIGHT NOW WE ARE JUST SEEING UNFORTUNATELY IN THE UNITED STATES, PRETTY MUCH IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY TO PLAY, THEN YOU CAN PLAY.

IT IS OFTEN AT THE EXPENSE, THOUGH, FOR THOSE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ALGORITHM, WHICH TENDS TO BE BRAK -- BLACK AND BROWN FOLKS.

SORRY, UNDERREPRESENTED, UNDERESTIMATED IN OUR SOCIETY.

WHAT SENATOR ED MARKEY AND OTHERS HAVE ALREADY WRITTEN THIS ACT LAST YEAR, I AM HOPING TO DO A LOT OF COMMUNITY ORGANIZING, BRINGING THE FAITH COMMUNITIES TOGETHER, OTHER SPACES TOGETHER TO BRING EDUCATION AROUND AI, BUT ALSO THE NEED FOR FOLKS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE TECH ECONOMY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CONCERNS ME IS THE PIPELINE.

THIS IS THE FUTURE OF WORK THAT WE ARE LIVING IN.

THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE SO SCARED ABOUT AI, DON’T KNOW HOW TO USE AI, BUT MANY OF THE JOBS THAT ARE BEING CREATED NOW AND THE JOBS THAT ARE GOING TO BE CREATED IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE ARE GOING TO HAVE A HUGE EMPHASIS ON AA -- AI COMPETENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.

THERE IS A HUGE GAP THERE.

ON ONE SIDE IT IS APPEALING BECAUSE AS WE ALL KNOW, WITH NEW TOOLS, AND IF YOU GIVE EVERYONE THE NEW TOOLKIT, IT HELPS LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD A LITTLE AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY.

BUT THE DOWNSIDE IS THAT FOLKS ARE NOT REALLY LEARNING AND NOT REALLY ADJUSTING TO WHAT’S HAPPENING QUICKLY ENOUGH, THEY CAN BE LEFT BEHIND.

SO I HAVE STARTED SEVERAL INITIATIVES TO TRY AND BRING FOLKS TO THE TECH ECONOMY THAT ARE UNDERESTIMATED.

THE GROUP LAB IS A NONPROFIT I STARTED EIGHT YEARS AGO TO BRING YOUNG ADULTS INTO THE AUDIOVIDEO AND TECHNOLOGY TRADES, WHICH HAS ALSO BEEN DISRUPTED BY AI.

BUT WE INTEGRATE THAT INTO OUR CURRICULUM NOW.

SO YOU ARE LEARNING HOW TO AUTOMATE, HOW TO USE AI AGENTS, HOW TO EDIT.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ADOBE SUITE AND MANY OTHERS, THEY ARE ALREADY USING AI WITHIN IT.

PARIS: YOU CAN TYPE IN WHATEVER, REMOVE THE BACKGROUND.

REVEREND HOPE: RIGHT.

THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY THERE, THE AI CAN HELP BUSINESS MOVE FASTER, HELP YOU BE MORE EFFECTIVE.

IT STILL NEEDS A COPILOT, IT STILL NEEDS THAT HUMAN ASPECT.

AND THE TECHNOLOGY FROM THE FRAMEWORK OF THIS OF A RIGHTS ACT IS THAT, ULTIMATELY, THE TECHNOLOGY HAS TO SERVE HUMANITY, NOT JUST PROFITS.

PARIS: WHAT IS ONE PIECE OF ADVICE THAT YOU WOULD LEAVE WITH US, SPECIFICALLY WITH BLACK FOLKS, ON HOW THEY CAN HAVE AUTONOMY IN THEIR USE OF AI?

REVEREND HOPE: I WOULD SAY, GET ON THE WAVE.

IF YOU ARE NOT ON THE WAY UP ON ONE SIDE OF THE ALGORITHM YOU ARE UNFORTUNATELY GOING TO BE ON THE OTHER SIDE, WHICH IS THE BIAS.

WE ARE ALREADY SEEING THAT NOW WITHIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WE ARE SEEING THAT IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, WE ARE SEEING THAT IN OTHER PERMUTATIONS.

I SIT ON THE BOARD OF THE BRANDEIS RACIAL JUSTICE AND TECH POLICY BOARD, AND WE REVIEW CASES FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, ALL OVER THE REGION ABOUT HOW THE TECHNOLOGY IS INTEGRATED IN SO MUCH ABOUT IS BEING EITHER WEAPONIZED, MISUSED, FOR THE ALGORITHM HAS SO MUCH BIAS THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING MISIDENTIFIED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

FACIAL RECOGNITION CHALLENGES.

VOCAL RECOGNITION CHALLENGES.

PARIS: GET ON THE WAVE.

REVEREND HOPE: YOU HAVE TO GET ON THE WAVE.

PARIS: DON’T LET IT WASH OVER YOU.

REVEREND HOPE: SO WE CANNOT JUST USE THIS TECHNOLOGY BUT SHAPE IT AND SHIP IT FOR OUR COMMUNITIES.

PARIS: REVEREND HOPE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I WANT TO SAY A HUGE THANK YOU TO OUR GUESTS.

FOR REMINDING US THAT WHEN IT COMES TO DATA AND ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE, AWARENESS IS THE FIRST STEP TOWARDS ACCOUNTABILITY.

IF YOU ARE FEELING INSPIRED, CHALLENGED, OR CURIOUS, MAKE SURE TO SUBSCRIBE TO "ROOTED" WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS.

AND IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, SEND US A NOTE AT ROOTED@ WGBH.ORG.

STAY ROOTED,