I'm Chris Moore.

The following Black Horizons contains mature subject matter, and viewer discretion is advised.

Hello and welcome to a special edition of Black Horizons.

Today we'll take a look at an often ignored subject in the black community.

What is it like to be black and gay?

As you can see, we have a studio audience that will participate in our discussion.

We also have these special guest, Donald Hammonds, who is a reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and has been active in the gay rights movement for a number of years.

Jeffrey Bullock he is a member of Act Up, Cry Out, a gay rights group.

Mr.

Bullock formerly lived in Seattle, Washington, and he says that there are marked differences between Pittsburgh and Seattle in how the gay community and the black community treats gays.

Also on our panel is Michael Lumberger.

Mr.

Lumberger says that he is a former gay, but came out of the gay lifestyle when he finally found a black church that was receptive to his spiritual needs.

He now directs an organization called Dunamis Ministries, which seeks to help other gay men exit the gay lifestyle.

Many of you in our audience may be wondering why we chose to approach this subject.

Well, it's something that does not get covered on television much in the black community.

The subject of homosexuality is often swept under the rug.

As a television producer, I feel a sense of responsibility to examine controversial subjects of public importance.

And this is certainly one of them.

Some of the inspiration for today's program comes from a controversial television documentary about being black and gay that will air on PBS next week.

It's part of the P.O.V.

series, and it's called Tongues Untied.

Written and produced by Marlon Riggs.

It is a personal essay, a bittersweet account of a life as a gay black man in America.

Here's a clip of that show.

I'd heard my calling by age six.

We had a word for boys like me.

Punk.

Punk.

Not because I played sex with other boys.

Everybody on the block did that.

Punk.

But because I didn't mind giving it away.

Now other boys traded.

You can have my booty if you give me yours.

But wait a minute now.

If I go first, you went first.

Last time.

But I want to be the daddy.

You do that all the time.

But I want to be daddy.

I'm daddy.

Not me.

I gave it up free at age 11.

Punk.

We moved to Georgia.

I graduated to New knowledge.

Homo.

You don't know how to kiss?

Homo.

My best friend asked.

Shocked.

I didn't know what to do with a girl when I lost at spin the bottle.

Homo.

I'll show you.

He said, his brown eyes inviting.

We practiced kissing for weeks.

Try wet French until his older brother called us a name.

Homo.

What's a homo?

I asked.

Punk.

Fagot.

Freak.

I understood.

We stopped kissing.

Best friend became worst enemy with us.

Via phone from California is Marlon Riggs.

Mr.

Riggs, welcome to our program.

Thank you.

It sounds as though it was very difficult.

There's a double bind that you allude to in that clip that we just used, that of racism from the white community and, homophobia, if you will, from the black community.

Was it really that tough?

But of course it is.

And for many, in fact, in fact, much more than the video alludes to, far tougher.

And that that gives you perhaps a minute to what much of my life was like until I was able to find courage within myself and more importantly, courage within a larger black gay community to speak the truth of my life and the truth of a communal life.

I do want to say something about to qualify as something you said earlier that Tongues Untied is a personal essay.

Well, it is that, but it's also more than that.

And that I'm dealing with much more than my own personal individual struggle as a black gay man.

Tongues Untied represent, in fact, a national black gay community.

And there are diverse voices, visions, experiences expressed through this work that include my own, and yet are also very, at times different from my own.

Okay, let me check with some of our panel members and see how well they identify with that.

Donald Hammonds, you've seen the program.

Others in our home viewing audience have not.

Yes.

Can you identify did you go through those same kinds of things?

I certainly could.

I experienced much of the same kinds of things that were, expressed in the film.

I think that the one thing that people need to understand is that being gay is not a choice.

For those of us who are gay.

We were not aware, frequently of any particular choice being made.

We are who we are.

We either come to terms with who we are or are we don't.

In terms of my own personal experience, first of all, it was very difficult because, as the film alludes to, if you're a black male and you're bright, you automatically are labeled, by your classmates and your peers because you're not supposed to, according to stereotype, be black, male and bright.

So instantly you are labeled, stuck up or punk or some of the other terms that, you may have heard in the movie.

It is very much a relevant experience.

I agree very much that, being black and gay, is an experience that's as rich and diversity as any other experience that we have in this country.

And I just want to make certain that people understand there is no such thing as a monolithic gay black experience any more than there's a monolithic black experience.

Jeffrey, you've lived in a number of different communities.

You've born in Carolina.

You've lived in Seattle, Washington, and now recently here in Pittsburgh.

You agree with that?

There's no monolithic, gay black community.

Well, of course, that's true.

I have a problem with the word lifestyle.

You know what is a gay lifestyle?

I mean, I get up and go to work just like everyone else does every day.

And, you know, I, I, my, my life consists of the same things that anyone would.

You know, the things of anyone would do.

So I there's no such thing as a gay lifestyle.

We live as people, as human beings, just like everyone else does, no matter whether you're straight, gay, whatever.

Okay, Mike Lumberger, let me put two questions to you, starting with this one.

Is there such a thing as a gay lifestyle?

I'm going to disagree with you.

I say yes because, I think once one begins to embrace the gay, the gayness within, or the gay homosexual lifestyle, they enter into a community where, everybody is more or less the same, males, being with males, females with females.

So therefore they do embrace a gay lifestyle.

Second question is, Donald Hammond said he might just qualify that statement.

Okay.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

This is Marlon Riggs.

What we are talking about is identity.

This is not an issue of lifestyle that do heterosexuals have a heterosexual lifestyle?

Do black people talk about their black lifestyle?

Do Asian people talk about the Asian lifestyle?

No, we talk about identity because our identities are comprised of complexity of a number of areas that make up our character, that make up our personalities.

It goes beyond how we dress, whom we talk to or sleep with.

It informs very much of who we are at a basic level as human beings.

And that's what we're addressing here.

Not something that one chooses, in some particular fashion in which one wears one's clothes or the way one associates with people.

Okay, I don't want to belabor the point, but that was that was my second question about, choice of a lifestyle.

Mike, in your case, did you choose to be gay and then choose not to be gay?

No.

I think, what happened with me, is more or less the same thing, that Marlon went through, the Don went through.

It all started at a young age where, I was brought up in an all white town, and when I went to junior high school, was my first real, influence with black students.

And, I relate it well with the whites.

And all of a sudden, the blacks were calling all kinds of names.

But what did that have to do with, the sexual orientation?

In that, I began to embrace, the love of another man.

Not even so much the love of another man, but just having fun with this single person.

And, from that single person, yes, I would date girls, because I thought that was it.

And then I go back to the guys thinking that was it to later on, to really, venture into the lifestyle to where Marlon said, I began to identify myself as the gay person and, walked right into that.

So you now are out of that lifestyle.

And what do you attribute that to?

Again.

Forgive me if I use that word lifestyle.

I find it rather objectionable.

Okay.

I'm I stand correctly.

Your orientation, your sexual orientation has changed.

And understand that it's more than sexual orientation.

We are talking about more than just having sex.

Sexuality is more than sexual practice.

Okay, how about a lesson for Chris Moore, then?

What should I what should I say to keep from offending folks?

Identity.

Identity.

We're talking about identity.

Okay.

Let me put this question to you, Michael.

What is your identity now?

And what do you attribute that identity to?

Well, I was born a heterosexual, a man, Mike Lumberger brought into the world that way.

There were some choices that I made in my life that constituted me embracing, homosexuality.

But, realizing today I am still Mike Lumberger.

That man that was created from the beginning.

I'm a heterosexual.

I'm a heterosexual.

And there's nothing that you that you attribute.

Oh, what I attributed, I attributed to this.

The change.

I went back to the roots of everything.

I realized that homosexuality wasn't the real issue in my life.

The real issue was, as he was saying earlier, the suffering of rejection, the bitterness, the lack of affirmation of my father not being around, the domineering mother who had a lot of control in my life.

And so therefore, a lot of that had to do with the way I began to, walk this out and embrace that.

Today I realized that there were some things that I had to release myself from one.

I had to begin to forgive people that I felt, abused me.

People who started calling me all these names.

When you say abuse, do you mind being more specific?

I mean, do you mean the name calling that we seen in the film?

Yes.

Well, it was that and it goes a step further.

I was molested at a young age, and, that helped me.

Well, that didn't help me.

That caused me to see myself totally different than the other guys in the neighborhood.

I, I as he said, I became silent.

I was threatened at that moment.

If you open your mouth, this is what I'm going to do to you.

So I was quiet that that memory, stayed within me all these many years.

Chris, could I say something?

I think that, perhaps a contrast might be helpful here.

I come from a very loving, supportive family.

My parents very much had and still have a 5050 marriage.

And that's how I was raised as a child.

I think that I became conscious of differences between myself and other people.

When I was about, I'd say 3 or 4 years old, I wasn't really sure what made me different, but I realized that I did have certain kinds of differences with other people.

And I think as I grew older, I became more and more aware of those differences.

Again, I couldn't put my finger on them.

What I did have, fortunately, where two parents were very supportive.

My mother, pretty much told me that, as long as you are on this planet, you'll discover that there are going to be a lot of people who are going to dislike you.

And a lot of people who are going to think you're wonderful.

It's up to you to be yourself.

No matter who that self might be.

So would you.

So I started from that position and, began to explore and began to read and began to, talk to counselors and to people and became, accepting of my real self.

And I began to realize that just as I am a black male, I am also a gay male, and I consider it to be another facet of my identity.

I interact with a number of communities, a number of different groups of people, and to me, being gay is just another aspect that makes my life just that much more rich.

So what you're saying is, given the two experiences we've heard about here, that, it's not monolithic.

No, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

It is not a monolithic experience.

And I think more important, Chris, is that we shouldn't blame our mothers or blame our fathers for our being gay.

That's right.

But I I'm sorry.

Marlon would you repeat.

We might have lost the last part of it.

Our entities.

It's far more complex than that.

And unfortunately, I feel for the reformed Reverend because he's bought into all of the stereotypes about who he is and why he is what he was.

Unfortunately, he hasn't learned to resist.

And to define for himself his own identity.

He's taken what he considers that notion of manhood, which has very little to do with what it really means to be a man, and bought it lock, stock and barrel.

Mr.

Lumberger, I have to give yo an opportunity to answer that.

Good.

No, I would say that, I'm not blaming my mother, nor my father for what took place in my life.

I could say that, if I would have had that role model, that would have called my masculinity out of me, that would have called my maleness out of me all the more.

There were some things that I don't think I would have ever ventured into.

I'm not blaming my mother because, she's, responsible for all the things that she has done.

She tried her best to raise me in the way that I should go, but therefore, there were some strong attributes in her that it just caught me the wrong way.

And I went out that way.

Okay, we're going to move on now.

One of the areas that Mr.

Riggs examines in this program is the Black church.

He does not look kindly upon black preachers who have attacked homosexuality.

And here's an example from the film Tongues Untied.

Abomination, here's an abomination.

Mankind shall not lie with mankind, for it is an abomination in his sight.

They say, well, the same flock about we should be brothers.

But before I accept his kinship, political or otherwise, this is what I want to know.

What does his loyalty lie?

Yo!

What kind of role model is a punk anyway?

Is no crevice that is no corner in God's church.

For purveyors of priorities.

That's what I want to know.

Come to the final showdown.

What is he first, black or gay?

You know the answer.

The absurdity of that question.

How can you sit in silence?

How do you choose one eye over the other?

This half of the brain over that, or in words this brother might understand.

Which does he value most?

His left nut or his right?

Tell him.

Silence is my shield.

It crushes the gay man a holy purpose.

Yes, he did to beget future generations.

But the homo sexual desire to kiss his life.

I say his life.

We need strong black men.

The father, father, black family that was a homosexual helped us agenda.

In fact, he's just part of the Christ.

is a punk is a punk.

I don't want them around me or my kids.

Period.

Mr.

Riggs, I hear two things there.

The issue of the black church and also black professionals who may attack black homosexuals, particularly gay men, as being part of the problem.

Is that, in effect, what you were trying to say?

Actually, there are three things there.

There's homophobia, obviously, from the black church, as you say, from black professionals.

Buffy's, as I call them in my script, and also from the so-called Afrocentric revolutionaries who consider black liberation not to include not only black gay men, but typically women as well.

Okay.

How would it include.

Could you explain that for those folks?

Because I know a lot of brothers and sisters like that.

I think that what we have to get away from is this notion of family, which is predicated upon this very European notion of nuclear mommy and daddy and two children, in the household.

Our families, as black people since slavery, have always been something other than the myth that's been expounded in America about what the family is.

Our families have involved more than blood kin.

They've involved people who cared and were intimate in our relationships with each other.

That depended much more upon shared love and bonding that went beyond blood than family is.

Okay.

And I have no problem with that.

But I hear a lot of people in our audience who may be saying to you, well, that's getting away from the traditional American value of what the family is supposed to be about.

And, we do need a mother and a father.

What is the family?

I know of no such thing.

I know.

There are people who, if I know, let me stop you.

Let me stop you for just.

No, nothing called the family.

Well.

Well, let me tell you that there are people in this country who define the family.

However they see it.

However you see it as a mother, as a father, as a cohesive unit that works together with children to teach, to educate, to, to have people grow up, to live the American dream.

Now, if you say that people in America don't define a family in that fashion.

No, I know there are lot of people who do.

People define it in that fashion.

But it's largely a myth that the family has largely been a construct of our imaginations and of our dreams, and have very little reality and relation to how we actually live our lives and how our families interact or don't interact with each other.

Is there anyone here.

To deal with the reality of, in fact, how we live and how we bond as a unit in social groups?

Okay, here's someone in our audience who has something he wants to say.

Well, I don't think I agree with you because the families are supportive unit of everything.

And a kid, you know, would take up after the parents.

And I'm an African.

And in Africa we are an extended family system like you alluded to.

But in the same way in Africa, they are setting coaches, they are setting values, they're setting morals in the society.

They are not written laws, but they are.

They're in the family.

They are day in the society.

And every person growing up in that family, you know, takes to those very values, just like, you know, see a lady, you know, standing by the street in Ghana where I come from smoking is not the law, but that is what the family tells you.

And that is what you do.

So I think the family support is very, very important.

Mr.

Riggs, I would not disagree with family support being important to people, but I think that we have to realize in Africa there is homosexuality and bisexuality, as everywhere else in the world and in the family as it can be.

A source of support can also be a very real source of oppression and repression.

All right.

Jeffrey Bullock has something he wanted to say.

Well, I just want to say that I think we have all in some way created our own families.

I know as a black gay man, I have had to create my own family because there was a certain amount of alienation that I personally felt when I realized that I'm gay, that I somehow didn't fit into this family as it was called, as I knew when I was growing up.

So throughout my life, it's been I have created that for myself through through my gay friends, through my lesbian friends, through my bisexual friends who have loved and supported me, who encouraged me to to identify myself and to love myself and to go out into the world and be strong and and powerful and loving and kind and all that stuff.

They are my family.

So I agree with Marlon about what constitutes a family.

What is a family?

My gay community here in Pittsburgh now is my family.

And I have my my family who's home.

But I also have created a new family.

We create ourselves daily.

We have to.

That's what we do.

I think that you have to, at least as far as I'm concerned.

I think your family are those individuals who love you and support you, whether they be, related to you by blood or people whom you have chosen, to be part of your life.

And I think that's basically what Jeffrey is saying, that, you know, we we call it family of choice this term that we use.

Okay.

Mr.

Lumberger, you talked about I want to go back to the black church for just a second.

When I talk to you over the phone as we were preparing this program, you talked about, being raised in the church and trying to go back to the church and many churches, excuse me, particularly black churches, not being receptive to your, desires, your need for some spiritual development and enhancement.

But you found a church that did help you.

What happened?

Well, first of all, I need to go back.

Just a few years prior to that.

Most churches, I would say everybody in this, place right now who expressed that they were gay and went to a pastor, I would venture to say that 95% of these people, we people.

The very first thing that pastor said was something out of the word.

But when they used the word, it was used to condemn the individual.

Okay, let me stop you.

Affirmation of that disagreement agreement.

I would disagree with that.

Okay, but go ahead.

If you.

Okay.

I have traveled around extensively, and as far as all the condemning, I've heard a lot of that.

But I've also moved into an awful lot of churches where there is a great many gay people in the ministry.

Not that I agree or disagree with that, but, all of this, gay people shouldn't be over here and gay people shouldn't be over there.

And it ain't right to be gay.

And the word says this, and the word says that, you know, it's like gay people are everywhere but in every sect.

But most of those people.

And having grown up in the church, too, I know exactly what you're talking about.

They did not flaunt their gayness.

Everyone probably knew openly that they were gay, and I don't I don't know if I'm going to get off track.

Donald's going to throw a brick at me here, but but their lifestyle, just like a heterosexual who might have been unfaithful to his wife or her husband, was not condemn because they did not publicly flaunt his sinful activity they were involved in.

They don't publicly admit to it.

But who would you trust?

Would you trust somebody who would walk up to you and tell you they were gay?

The one who's going to hide and be a phony.

Who would you trust?

Who would you want to be involved with?

Mr.

Hammond, there was something you wanted to tell you that, I had an experience that was, pretty much opposite that which Mike had, here in Pittsburgh.

I discussed, my sexuality with my ministers, and they were both very, very supportive.

In fact, one of them, said to me, that, you know, as part of our church discipline, I am Methodist.

And as part of our church discipline, gay people are considered people of sacred worth.

Now, I'm not saying that we're not now struggling with the issue of ordaining, gay clergy.

This is united.

But this United Methodist Church, you know, there have been many articles.

I, I certainly know that, it's just that, many of the mainline Protestant churches, do have policies that expressly forbid discrimination of any kind within, membership, of the individual church.

And, my own experience is simply was not similar to that which, which, Michael had.

And I just wanted to point out that there, again, is a variety of things that can happen to you.

Okay.

Yes, sir.

What?

That's kind of a button that gets pushed every so often.

I think a lot of the, the church community is kind of playing a word game they're saying to persons who are gay.

Well, we will love you in the sense that we're all somehow sinners, but we'll love you only if you go along with this, this, this, this, this and this also, if you'll do, this will love you and let you into all of the inner circles.

Now, my own Episcopal Church right now in Phoenix within three days is going to deal with the whole issue again of ordaining openly gay persons, which I've long supported, incidentally, for many, many years.

But I always get a concerned about this because I think we get in the word game.

We have learned how to talk.

And this is, by the way, just around gay, the gay issue.

We've learned how to talk acceptance always with the word.

"But" behind it.

And then when we get pushed on the "but" outcomes passages of Scripture out of context frequently and they're turned into clubs, somebody once said, the church is very good at taking a baseball bat and putting a velvet glove on it, but it still hurts when it gets hit.

So they use the gospel as a sledge hammer and, let me let me get back here.

These two gentlemen, you're saying they've used the gospel as a sledge hammer and not as a magnet to attract people to God?

I guess that's what he said.

One thing that comes to my mind is that, to the Christians, I would say that God gave everybody freedom of choice to do what one chooses.

So as a human being, we cannot tell somebody, you got to be this way.

You got to be that way to the gay community.

I mean, it's like everybody be what they want to be.

But when you start dealing with the church and start dealing with the King James Version, I can it would be difficult for me to accept biblical teachings from a gay person when the when the King James Version clearly states the doctrine that they're teaching me clearly states that what they're doing, they're not supposed to do.

So you're saying that any pastor, homosexual or heterosexual, who was living something against the Scripture, it would be difficult to follow them, right?

Because, I mean, how powerful is it and how truthful is it if you're willing to overlook this and overlook that?

No.

Okay.

Another comment.

I think the point has to be raised, if I could, about how the Bible has been used in so many dastardly ways to dehumanize and oppress so many kinds of people, and it always amazes me that people, especially black people who are enslaved because of the Bible, which justified the subjugation of black people, can now embrace this, this book and the religion and say that, well, this justifies now that the human dehumanization and the oppression of this group of people who are gay and lesbian, you know, a lot of people who.

Cannot make any sense to me.

But people with the history that we share and the kind of oppression that was often justified, justified by divine right, there is there's no doubt that, what you say is true.

The Bible has been twisted in a lot of different ways to be used in a lot of different ways, but those have been misrepresentations on the part of men and Christians would tell you that there's only one example to look to, and that would be Jesus.

How would you how would you respond to that?

I'm not a Christian, so I don't look to the Bible for any sanction of my life.

But I would say, no, no, but you criticize in the Bible.

I'm only asking you about your criticism, not about your personal identity.

Thank you.

Chris.

I would say that people who have studied the New Testament don't find their the kind of condemnation and condemnation, particularly from Jesus, that is found in the Old Testament, but more so people tend to extract from the Bible these select quotes, which then they take completely out of historical context and often select only one quote which condemns this form of behavior and not others, which your point about the Bible being misleads and condemns.

So many well taken must be going to hell.

Okay, I'd like to get this.

Hold on, hold on.

Just second wisdom.

Let me get this gentleman's comment and I'll get back to you.

Yeah.

Chris, I just want to, say that I think Marlin is a very talented filmmaker.

I think that the prose on the film was fantastic.

However, I think the underlying theme of the entire film is pain and rejection.

And I and I think it's sad that so many churches today, and I think American churches are waking up to this fact, have rejected the gay person for this long.

And I think now that things are starting to come about where, the churches are starting to awaken to the process of healing, and I think that there is healing to be, received, in the black community.

I think that we can do so much to help, gay people.

However, I think Christ always received people, no matter who or what they were.

But he notice, he said to the woman at the well, he said, I receive you and I accept you, but go and sin no more.

And that's a standard that we as a community have to look at.

And, that I personally have embraced.

Well, that's the only thing that I would say, though, is that you have to remember that Jesus made absolutely no statements of any kind in the New Testament about homosexuality one way or another.

When people use the Bible to oppress and to, point, to make their own viewpoints known in terms of their own homophobia, they are not basing it on anything Jesus said they're basing it strictly on their own homophobia.

Okay.

Yes, sir.

I'd like to go back to something you mentioned about heterosexuals not flaunting themselves in the church.

And homosexuals should not do that.

When heterosexuals do indeed flaunt their sexuality in church, they flaunt it in all aspects of our life.

And I take issue with you that you would say that and say that homosexuals and you used to say in the same sentence as adultery that homosexuals should not flaunt themselves as adulterers.

And you didn't say adultery, but you said as people who would run around on their wives and or husbands, well, I don't consider myself to be a sinner simply because I'm a homosexual, but according to a biblical definition that a Christian would use.

So we're talking about the church, but some Christians would use some Christian.

And I was only the only comparison I was trying to draw is a heterosexual will sin just as a homosexual may be considered to sin, but heterosexuals do indeed flaunt their sexuality to us.

And I think most of them try to hide it.

No, any minister that's carrying on with assisting the church is trying to hide it.

Brother, I don't care what you says, whether he's carrying on or not, whether he's sinning, heterosexual may flaunt their identity and a homosexual may not.

Okay your point there as well taken.

And that's not what I was talking about.

All I was talking about is that if if a heterosexual can sin, a homosexual can and vice versa.

Yes, sir.

It's just that's in some ways the issue here.

Okay.

We tend to say all homo, all homosexual actions are sin.

Okay.

On the other hand, we say some heterosexual actions are sin, but we miss the words all and the some and it gets rolled out together.

And that's where this dilemma is.

And the church is not of one mind about homosexual actions at this moment.

And we've got to be careful of our language about that.

Okay.

Your point is well-taken.

I want to move back here to this sister who's had her hand up for some time and has something to say.

Yes, I disagree with the one gentleman.

I think in the church it's not just a thing of homosexuality is sexual immorality that has to be dealt with.

And Jesus did relate to that.

Also, I feel that there are churches that will let homosexuals come in, and we'll give them the love and compassion that Jesus showed the woman who was caught in the sexual sin of adultery.

But also you cannot take away from the Word of God in any way.

And if God, if Jesus is saying that sexual sin, whether it's for, excuse me, fornication, adultery or sexual immorality at all is a sin, then that's what we have to go by.

You can't take just because of the love and the grace of God.

He also says that with grace of man is that means that we're allowed to sin and just keep on sin.

I'm not trying to attack you.

I'm just based on the word.

Can I ask you a question just as a follow up?

What are you considering to be sexual immorality in terms of of gay behavior?

I mean, are you saying, Sexual morality according to my precept of it, is anything that goes out of the content of marriage.

The word says that there's a union between man and woman, and that's what God purposed it for.

The sex outside of marriage.

It's wrong.

Now those of us who are in relationships consider ourselves to be and committed marriages.

Okay?

Now they may not be marriages in terms of your own recognition of what a marriage is, but we are still living in relationships that are committed and where we care for and love each other.

And that's why I disagree with you.

I happen to be in a committed relationship, and I certainly don't consider myself to be, living in sin because I'm in a committed relationship.

And I want to Can I?

I don't think it's necessary for someone to be in a long term monogamous relationship in order to be free of sin.

I'm not implying that at all.

It's not what I'm saying.

It's sex with another gay man for a night.

That's fine.

And back too can be moral.

Okay.

Then my statement would be that if you take it to the very beginning, God created man and woman.

And if you want to get very technical about it, he said the reason why he created man and woman, he created us because man was lonely.

So I would I would gather that by him creating men and woman, he created them to be a union together.

The Bible also says that they were when they married, they come become as one man and female.

He didn't say man and man or woman and woman.

Okay, before we, everybody wants to talk right now, we need to move on because we have some other clips we want to look at, and we'll get to you if we can.

Okay.

There is a certain amount of hurt when you are not accepted by your own.

It's a kind of hurt that can turn into anger.

Anger, as expressed in this clip from Tongues Untied I too no anger.

My body contains as much anger as water.

It is the material from which I have built my house.

Blood red bricks that cry in the rain.

It is the face and posture I show the world.

It is the way.

Sometimes the only way I am granted audience.

It is sometimes the way I show affection.

I am angry because of the treatment I am afforded as a black man.

That fiery anger is stoked.

Additionally, with the fuze of contempt and despise those shown me by my community because I am gay, I cannot go home as who I am.

When I speak of home, I mean not only the familial constellation from which I grew, but the entire black community, the black press, the black church, black academicians, the black literati, and the black left.

Where is my reflection?

I am most often rendered invisible, perceived as a threat to the family, or I am tolerated.

If I am silent and inconspicuous, I cannot go home is who I am, and that hurts me deeply.

Marlon.

Again, that seems like an attack on the group that you call Bumpy's.

Those folks who are out there trying to say, we have this to deal with, we have that to deal with, and homosexuals are part of our problem.

I mean, is that what it is?

A critique of the larger black communities, all of the various institutions in the black communities, as it said, the literary, the the academicians, those people in the family who would silence and shun us, because of our sexual identities.

That's what this work is trying to deal with.

I mean, given the controversy that's now surrounds it around, tongues and tired, as you probably know, it's been in many ways very painful for me to watch how little black people have rallied and the defense of this work being shown on the air.

What kind of support have you received around the country?

I have received amazing support from white progressive institutions, gay and lesbian, predominantly white institutions, black people, gay and straight, I might add, have been silent.

What is it about the black community that they seem to refuse to embrace you?

What is it about the black community that we seem so reluctant to embrace?

You?

This work, to embrace homosexual?

I'm so reluctant not just to embrace me because it's not a personal embrace.

Well, that's the reason I broaden it.

Yeah.

I understand.

Frankly, with the issues of sexual diversity in our community and how that has alienated us in so many ways from each other, whether we want to recognize it or not.

Okay.

We have a comment from the studio here.

I just wanted to change the discussion.

Well, the clip already did do that, but I think that we live in a pluralistic society where there are many options in religion, and there's also the option not to participate in religion.

And I don't think that this discussion benefits from people presenting their particular religious perspective.

And forcing it on other people.

And I would like to see this.

I think that it would be more beneficial if we looked at this and discussed it more from a perspective of, of human sexuality and something that is intrinsic in the human being and in something that is healthy.

I don't think that when you begin to discuss homosexuality, it should come from a point of of disease or mis function.

Because basically, when I look at it as an individual and I don't know if I'm at all representative of of many other people, but I accept that choice or that intrinsic behavior as a private act that doesn't necessarily have to be made public.

And even if it is made public, it still is an individual, you know, and I still look at all of the people as human beings, like I have children, I have people in my family.

There are some people in my family who are homosexual, and there are those people who are heterosexual.

And I think it's more important to focus on the character of the individual.

And with their contribution to society is and it makes me raise the question, what has indeed been the danger of homosexuality in society?

Because if you look at sexuality, probably the most destructive sexuality to society has been heterosexual behavior, out gone rampant in teenage pregnancy.

That's much more devastating to the fiber of society than the private acts of homosexual in the cause to to all people, all institutions in society have been affected by that sexual behavior.

Okay.

Mr.

Lumberger, I think I think the central issue that the black community has to now ask itself is, can we afford the luxury of cutting out one entire segment of the black community at a time when number one illiteracy is a problem, when, we do not own businesses, when our own civil liberties are being threatened, when we have all of the things that are happening to us right now in this country, can we really afford the luxury of cutting people out simply because of the individual's own life in private?

I mean, is that something that we can afford?

I don't think we can.

And I think that going to Mr.

Bullock, I've read an article about you that said essentially the same thing why should blacks cut off one segment of their society?

Do they think that they're going to get their rights?

If if black gays don't also get their human rights, I would be same how, you know, everything that rises must converge.

And that's basically what I was saying, is that we all have to come together and support each other as as a race of people, as black people.

In order for us to receive rights in this country, we're going to have to support women, children and, eliminate poverty.

And, I mean, we all have to go together.

There is no such there won't be a group of people who will rise above anyone else.

It just doesn't work that way.

Freedom doesn't.

It's not granted to one segment of people and not someone else.

It just it doesn't work that way.

You have to oppose oppression in all forms, no matter what form it takes.

And as far as I'm concerned, it is absolutely ludicrous to ask an individual to make a choice between being either black or gay.

I happen to be a black gay male.

I'm proud of both parts of my identity, and I don't expect to make a choice.

I will not make a choice.

Okay, we have a comment from the studio.

Well, there there are many, people who belong to multiple minorities, and I. I belong to a religious minority, a tiny in this country, religious minority that at one time we were burned at the stake because we were Unitarians.

And when we were burned, those people burned us, said they loved us, they loved us and hated our sin, our sin of the wrong religious belief.

They used to take, the people who were willing to give up their religion and become majority religion people to say they no longer believe what they believed.

Of course, they went on believing what they believe, but they lied and they would take them.

They say, well, you were you were induced into this.

We know you weren't really a Unitarian.

You were induced into this.

They they lured you into this, this bad belief, didn't they?

And those people would say that they were so anxious to be accepted into the majority, they would say, oh, yeah.

Oh, they, they, they induced me, they, they gave me money or they gave me.

What is your points.

Well, the gay people, the black gay people, the white gay people in America today are being treated like heretics.

They are being treated by the majority religious groups, often as heretics.

They're being told, we love you, but we hate your sin.

And you must convert to our religion and we'll put the stamp of normality on you.

Okay?

Mr.

Lumberger, what about that?

I just want to use one word.

It's called truth.

And once you know the truth, it's that which sets one free.

I can sit here and debate Don and Jeff and say this is right, and that's right.

And they can say, this is right, and that's right.

But the ultimate thing is, Jeff, Don, myself, we're all fallible.

We're all subject to fall at a given moment.

But there's one thing that is infallible, and that's the Word of God.

And that's the thing that you got to realize, it's truth.

And you may not believe it's truth, but it's the truth so true for you.

But don't impose that upon me.

I'm giving you opportunity to make a choice.

And I agree with that.

The truth is something different.

I have my own truth in life.

I have to learn how to respect each other's truth.

I agree with that.

but I'm not hearing respect for other people's truths.

Let me go into that also.

I'll go as far as to say in the church, I'm not here.

As far as representing my church and saying that all of you are damned and you're going to hell.

I'm not.

I'm not God, and I don't know what he's going to do in that, part of one of our, part of your life.

But the thing I gotta say is this is that as far as where we worship or.

Let me just use that.

You come in there and you sit.

You hear the word, the word goes forth.

Nobody is saying, Jeff, do this.

Jeff, you're a sinner.

Jeff.

You're going to hell.

Jeff, get the hell out of the church!

No, you will not hear that at our place.

But the one thing you will hear is, brother, we love you.

Just keep coming back.

And it's that word that will affect you down the road.

I'm not.

Okay.

I won't push that All right.

I think what I'd like.

All right.

This is going to be final comment.

We're going to move on.

Okay.

Is to redirect the discussion in terms of what is going on here in Pittsburgh, in terms of the black community and how it relates to the gay community, because I think there are some factors that are at work here in Pittsburgh that make it especially difficult for blacks, be they gay or straight, to relate to each other.

And I think that that's what we need to talk about and how we're going to address those and how we're going to provide nurturing here in Pittsburgh for black people, be they gay or straight.

I think that's really the central issue right now that we really need to be addressing.

We can see that this kind of discussion, let alone an identity, that is different from one others, some other person's identity can bring up a lot of anger, and vehement discussion.

And that kind of anger can turn into frustration.

How does one deal with it?

Here's how some gay men have.

According to Marlon Riggs, we heard about this new club, so a few of us decided to check it out.

Got there early around ten.

Figured if it was tired we could always hit bells by midnight.

We must have waited in line at least 15 minutes.

All the while the doorman miss attitude and you know the type.

Bleach blond hair.

Body by Nautilus.

Man by Mattel.

Miss bitch is watching us.

Ten black men show up and they get paranoid the place is going to tilt.

We finally get to the door and thing says with much condescension.

You know there's a cover to get in, but I tried to ignore her rudeness and then she shot her arm out.

I need to see three pieces of I.D.. I thought this ship was through.

I just turned around and looked miss and dead in the eye, three pieces of I.D.. She didn't know what hit her.

We took our money and left.

The next day, I reported that dive to the mayor's office, the Human Rights commission, the NAACP, and the Alice B Toklas Democratic Club.

Don't mess with the snap diva, Marlon.

How is it that, people who have a gay identity can deal with that kind of frustration, whether they're being turned away from a club, a religious establishment, a bumpy doesn't like them because they don't feel they're good role models.

How can they deal with that kind of frustration?

Part of what Tongues Untied is trying to do is to tell people of a need to form our own communities, to articulate our own lives, and to live by our own truths and our own standards, and not by others, so that what you see in that man's defiance is an unwillingness to abide by, in this case, the racism of the gay white man, and to go to all of the various, institutional outlets that we have, as well as to create others that can deal with, in this case, racism, racism in gay society.

That's happening.

I think what's very evident in Tongues Untied particularly for those who have seen it by the end, is the emergence not just of an individual here speaking about their private pain or their private life, nor an individual there.

But it's, a community, a community that's speaking publicly, that's marching through the street, that's addressing in a very loud, boastful, proud public way the realities of our lives and doing so devoid of any shame.

All right.

We have another comment from our studio audience.

I think your problem is what you're saying is, is the white community.

accept the white gay man, but the black community does not accept a black gay man.

No, actually, I don't say that.

I'm not even addressing white gay men except to talk about their racism.

But I'm not particularly concerned about the whites acceptance of white gays in Tongue Untied.

I don't I don't see that as racist in myself, because what you should know is this is something which, you know, the black community should learn to accept.

This is gay.

Gay life is not part of the black culture.

And therefore, excuse me, what did you say?

Well, I'm saying that gay.

Okay, let me give you an example.

Black culture, what are you talking about?

Let me tell you what I'm saying.

Look at ancient Roman Empire.

You understand what I'm saying?

Oh.

yes, I'm coming up.

Come on, Let's listen.

Let's listen to his point.

We only have a few minutes left.

Look at ancient Roman Empire.

We are gays.

We are homosexual men.

Right?

In that society.

Way back then.

Now come back and look at the African society where the African American came from.

There wasn't any homosexuality.

It isn't.

Listen Excuse me.

if you're not aware of this, that's not by the realities.

No no no no, no.

In Africa, if you are homosexual, you are driven outside, outside to the city, to death Under the homosexual in Africa, you should go.

You will find it there if you look.

No, no, no, that is what.

Yes.

Because speaking from a historic.

I'm speaking I'm speaking from.

Yes.

Because we have to look at our culture.

We have to know where we're coming from before we know where we're going from.

And what you're saying is that in ancient times that homosexuals were there but were driven out, they were driven out.

But but what happens if we return to that kind of time now?

I mean, we should we drive homosexuals out?

Should they be stoned?

No, no no no no no, I am not saying that we should drive homosexuals out.

What I'm saying is that looking at his script, he's angry because the black community is not willing to accept the black homosexual.

And what I haven't seen is because the black culture is not receptive to that.

And that is what I'm saying.

The black culture is just not receptive to that.

Marlon, what about that?

Is that one of the reasons the few black people I don't know, the black people here are applauding.

Some of them are applauding that One person applaud.

I don't say the black people are applauding one person applaud.

The few people that I saw applauded don't say the black people.

One person clapped.

I mean, that's why we get into this thing of clumping everyone together and saying, the black people, that's erroneous.

We are not monolithic.

I keep saying that, and I just wish I wish people would understand that.

Okay.

Go ahead.

There's a lot of things that people will just never understand.

But I want to end by comments.

I'm making a few comments today.

I want to say one thing is for sure, in this country, everybody has a right to be whatever they want to be without being harassed, and that needs to be lived.

You know, we all need to look at each other and say, well, I wouldn't be that way or I wouldn't be this way, but they have a right to be that way.

Don't harass them, let them be that way.

But as far as dealing in the Christian church and dealing with the King James Version, the fact of the matter is, there's my opinion, there's your opinion, and then there's the truth.

And that does not change.

Okay.

All right.

Comment you want to make over here.

This is going to be maybe our last comment I'm not sure.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I feel justified to bring it back to the church in dealing with black homosexualtlity, since that was a segment of our show, even though it tries to be avoided or overlooked.

And I see a lot of rejection and bitterness in the room because there is a lot of homophobia in religious black churches.

Okay.

Nevertheless, like Mike said, you cannot escape the truth.

Okay?

And the problem is, but this is the truth Right, right.

But as an expression, it's not a true violation.

So it gave you that.

I mean, how do you know what's your That's right when no one is trying no one is trying to trying to assert.

No one is trying to make anyone believe the truth.

But everyone goes back to it and tries to refuted.

If it's like, if it's not the truth, you can deal with something else.

But most of everyone goes, everyone goes back to it.

I really want to be able to talk because even though you try to deny it, you know within your heart that it is.

And the, clip I can give you, that's where I would disagree with you.

I'm sorry.

The primary message of what Marlon was trying to say in the clip.

As far as the rejection of the black community, but it's sadness at the end as far as trying to assert a freedom to walk into when you know the truth and when you are free is not something you have to try to assert.

It just is.

I'm sorry, but everyone in this world is free to search for their own truth as they know it, and as they care to live it.

Okay, I got about 45 second, you may give the last comment.

Yes.

Her truth.

All right, but, I also have mine.

We understand your point.

We'd like to get this one comment in.

Please go ahead.

Yeah.

I just like to say that, I came here thinking this this was going to be a discussion on, the black gay male experience and its relevance to the black community in Pittsburgh.

And you let this discussion go on to, the church and and condemning homosexuality and whether it's right or wrong.

And I'm disappointed.

You did.

But the point is, we spent about half an hour or 45 minutes talking about homosexuality being wrong in the church.

And I don't I don't think that's what we came here.

And I don't think that's what the panelist came here to talk about.

Right.

So you're right.

So this program was absolutely of no use and we probably shouldn't even have.

Well, you can you can air it.

But you know I'm disappointed and I just want to say that's why I kept talking about the idea of what are we going to do to bring the community together?

What are we going to do to work here in Pittsburgh to provide nurturing for all of us, no matter who we are?

I'd like to see some solutions addressed.

Oh, that's what I'm talking about.

Perhaps we can do that on a subsequent program.

And I invite all of you guys to do that.

Well, if you're interested in seeing the Tongues Untied program in its entirety, tune in to WQED Tuesday night at 11 p.m.. Once again, this program carries a viewer discretion advisory.

I appreciate all of you who were open minded enough to stay with us through the conclusion of this program.

All too often, I've heard the media criticized for not taking a leading role in discussing, delineating and defuzing the issues of the day.

As we've heard criticism on this very program, on this program, I hope that we have done that.

Some people think we have some people don't.

I'm Chris Moore, thanks for being here.

Goodbye.