On this episode of roots, race and Culture, mental health struggles are reaching an all time high in America.

And when it comes to seeking help, communities of color tend to wait the longest.

Truly, you decide which patterns you want to hold on to and which ones you want to let go because they're no longer serving you and your family.

Safety is here for you, and we can find a way to create safety outside of here.

Let's talk about.

It.

As always, we welcome you on roots, race and culture.

Funding for roots, race and culture is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Roots, Race, & Culture," where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

I'm Lonzo Liggins.

- And I'm Danor Gerald.

Thank you for joining us today.

We're discussing a historically taboo topic among many Black families and people of color, so we're gonna stop minding our own business and learn to normalize the business of minding our mental health.

Recently, we've seen alarming rate increases in mental health and wellness problems among Blacks.

- That's right.

New data from the CDC shows suicide rates among Black youth have increased 54% since 2019, surpassing white youth for the first time, and Black adults are 20% more likely to experience serious mental health problems compared to the general population, so let's meet our experts and dive right into it.

Would you go ahead and introduce yourself, Stormey, if you will.

- Yes, my name is Stormey Nielsen.

I'm a licensed clinical social worker and co-founder of a mental health practice called Focal Point.

- Hmm, oh, nice.

- Yes.

So we specialize in transracial adoption as well as just other mental health issues for our BIPOC community.

- Niecie.

- Niecie, - introduce yourself.

- I am Dr.

Niecie Jones.

I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I primarily have a private practice in Orem, and I see clients throughout the state via telehealth, as well.

- Oh, awesome.

Well, Niecie you know, you bring up marriage and family therapy, and, you know, back in the '70s to the '90s, mental health was kind of painted as this picture of, like, sending someone to an insane asylum.

- Straight jackets, yeah.

- You know, I'm thinking of people like Charles Manson, movies like "Sybil," where- - [Danor] "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," things like that, yeah.

- "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," yeah.

This is what brought this idea of mental health care into the public consciousness, into the mainstream, but it was always pretty extreme.

Now, can you guys help us understand what modern mental health care is and what it is not?

- One definition, there's several out there, one definition would have to do with just general functioning, so when we think about functioning according to what is culturally acceptable, we wanna see what is considered more optimal functioning, optimal health and wellness, in a human, so, and then to go a bit further, when we talk about mental health and just how that discipline has grown, it's a fairly young discipline compared to medical health and physical health.

So when I talk about a disorder, for example, or a mental illness, we're looking at dysfunction, or somebody's not functioning properly according to our culture in an optimal way, in one or many areas, so I may have a disorder called depression, major depressive disorder, because I'm not functioning optimally or in a way that would be culturally acceptable for about two weeks or more, - Okay.

- with certain intensities and frequencies of symptoms.

So that would be one way of looking at it, but Stormey may have something else to add to that.

- Yeah, so when I think of mental health, I automatically go back to, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs: Do we have these things to help us sustain positive mental wellness?

And so that's kind of my definition of mental health.

If we are lacking in these areas, you start to notice that mental decline that she talked about, you know, where maybe you do have depressive symptoms creep in, maybe anxiety is there, you know.

And then mental health in terms of just a Black identity, right?

That's very layered, (chuckles) there's a lot of pieces to that, which I think, you know, we can look at it in one way, from a more colonialistic view, or we can look at it from a more Black and diasporic view, and I think that that will, those two things will look very different.

It's important to have communities that we can connect with, people that we feel like see us and support us, so we can kind of move up that ladder, more so, and build our self-esteem.

If we don't have connections, it's hard to build our self-esteem.

And once we have achieved a good level of self-esteem, we reach what's called self-actualization, you know, where we're able to do more and kind of live out in our joy, in our authenticity.

- Our best life, as it's put.

So, you know, you mentioned this idea of belonging and community, and I think that's where we really can struggle as Black people and people of color, because traditionally, it feels like, at least, in my memory, growing up, it felt like going to a therapist or getting counseling was really something that was, like, kind of for white people, so is this, like, this myth, that, like, healing is for white people - Or a weakness.

- and we just gotta, like, just tough it out?

Like, do you guys feel like that's something that people still think of today, or?

- So what I would say to that is, and what I do say to my clients is they're... First of all, in the African American community specifically and even the diasporic African community, we've always had ways that we heal, and a lot of it has been collective, and that is so helpful.

We have song, dance, narrative, oral history, huge thing for us, so the idea that we don't, that healing is for white people, we do it all the time, it is part of our fabric.

- Ah, different ways, yeah.

- Yes, and so adding in another modality is to our benefit to have options, and also, I will admit Western psychology, very individualistic.

We've worked really hard to make it more systemic, more relational, collective, but it is individualistic in nature, that is a very, like, Western European thing, - Yes, yes.

- it just is, so when you add in this element of being more individualistic, which doesn't... Individualism and collectivism, they don't have to be enemies, we can do both, we're always on a spectrum there somewhere, but having more options, it's to our benefit, and so if having your own personal therapist or your family therapist, help you out, why not use that to your benefit?

If you've got access to it, if it's available to you, just try it out, it's not evil (laughs).

- Well, that's another thought, is, like, this idea of access, which is kind of maybe why that idea was painted into my mind.

According to kff.org, in 2023, 19% of Black individuals were uninsured compared to 65% of white, so does insurance and economics have an impact on people's attitude about whether or not they can go get a therapist?

- Yes, when we look at economics in general and the way that people are trying to function, if you don't have money coming in, there's very much a scarcity mindset happening, you know.

It's more important to chase the paycheck, to, you know, make sure you make it to your next shift, than it is to set aside time to, like, work on your mental.

- What do you think is causing those alarming rates today?

I mean, do you, have you seen an increase in patients over this year, over the last couple of years?

- As far as the increase in the symptomology that we're seeing, for example, Black youth, the suicide rate has exponentially increased, part of that, I think, is modern living, modern technology, which, for all of the goods that it has done for us and the access it has provided people, it's also opened us up to seeing a lot of other things that may be harmful to our health, and I mean, as adults, as parents, as aunties and uncles, we can only do so much to influence the kids when they've got access to smartphones, and they can, they know our passwords, they can unblock whatever to be able to see whatever they want to.

And also, we know algorithms are not our friends all the time, and they show us things and they show our kids things that aren't helpful to their health.

- Yeah, and we're in a state where, you know, Black youth are certainly the minority in terms of demographics, right, so there's this need to assimilate and figure out things, like you mentioned, working in counseling with people who are transracial adoptions, and that kind of a thing.

Does that have a really big impact, also, on the mental health of people of color and Black people, particularly when you're just not seeing enough people that look like you to feel safe, as you put it?

- Yes, like Niecie said, like, we are collective people naturally, and when we're not around our own, or at least not have access to our own when we need it, then you become isolated to the things that, you know, the things that are happening, to the discrimination, to the racism that is happening, and like you said, like, I'm a transracial adoptee and that is my niche at my office, and that level of mental health looks a little different as well, because there is a cultural disconnect that's happened since the beginning, you know, and then there's that adoption trauma piece on top of that, and so you do have these Black individuals who might not really resonate with Blackness or Black culture, even though their white peers are telling them that that's where they need to be, which puts them in this extra state of isolation, 'cause they don't know how to connect to other Black individuals, or haven't felt like they can connect to other Black individuals.

But yeah, just being a minority in a very homogenous state comes with its own challenges, especially when you look at our roots of being collective and just not being able to collect and gather.

- Yeah, so when you're in your practice, what are things that you think are helpful?

Is it good when they come and talk to you, and it's like, "Oh, I'm talking to another person of color, another Black person."

Does that influence how you speak with them, the sort of advice you give them, or the steps that they need to take for healing or for improving on their mental health?

How much does ethnicity impact that?

- I think it can have a significant impact in many cases.

So, for example, I have a lot of clients who will come to me after seeing a white therapist, and they will specifically say, "I actually had a good experience with this person, this white therapist, but when it came to cultural things or racial things, they could not, it was just like their eyes glazed over.

They didn't know how to respond, or went to more traditional models of therapy that are a little, I'm gonna say it, white and dry, and don't always get to the root of the problem or the issue because there are some of our traditional models of therapy that really move us away from quote, unquote, "complaining, or staying in our rage or our anger," when sometimes we need to access that, and having a therapist who, yes, one, looks like you, two, can speak your language, three, may have a shared lived experience, and then four, lets you just, like, vent.

- There's a lot of economic uncertainty right now, and, you know, attack on DEI initiatives, and things like that, and I'm curious, you know, how can someone differentiate between just regular economic stress and, you know, what's leading to mental illness?

'Cause right now, there's a lot of pressure to, you know, assimilate, and a lot of companies are having pressure to stop doing these DEI programs.

Do you feel like that's having any impact on people's mental health in your recent practice, or what you've observed?

- Yeah, there's a lot of changes happening right now in our community, in our society, in our country, and we are taking in these messaging, or we are taking in the messages, you know, through social media, through news outlets, and that message is repeatedly saying, "We do not care about you, you are not important to us," right, and so that will continue to impact our mental health when we don't feel like greater society cares.

I think our country has made a lot of strides when it comes to, you know, seeing and supporting people of color, specifically Black individuals, queer individuals, things like that, and all these recent rollbacks of DEI have said the complete opposite, you know, which does put targets on people's backs, as we have seen.

- I have a question for you.

So let's say a young Black person who is apprehensive about getting into, walking into a mental health office, walk me through what that experience would be like for them to make them less apprehensive and make that experience more comfortable.

Would you start, Niecie, like, how that experience goes if they walk into the office?

- Absolutely.

So we'd actually start with a phone call.

So we do our consultation first, and I do have some who are apprehensive, I can hear in their voice when they're calling, and they're saying, "This is the first time I have ever asked for help, I've ever wanted therapy, but I'm trying," and I talk to them about, you know, "What's going on?

What's leading you to seek out therapy at this time?"

And they tell me, and then I jump in and I say, "Here's how I work as a therapist.

Many of us are different, this is my approach."

And I tell them, "I work from a more systemic perspective, I look at different things that are impacting you versus looking at all the things that you're quote, unquote, 'doing wrong,' 'cause it's not about just you fixing things, it's about how are these larger systems impacting you and how do we kind of navigate these differently?

What kind of support do you need?"

And that typically kind of eases the anxiety a little bit when I tell them this is how I work.

And I'm very person-centered: "This is about you and your goals.

I'm just here to guide you.

I'm a co-author, co-pilot, I'm your girl for that."

And then we just talk about, you know, pain, and all these, like, all the pain points, all the things that they may be apprehensive about, I go into it in the consultation, and then by the time they come and walk into my office, they typically feel pretty okay.

And we have Black art all over the office, so "We're here to, like, let you know this is your space, this is for you."

- Wow!

You know, that is amazing.

And there's a comfort there in feeling, like, "Oh, there's Black art on the walls, there's a person who looks like me."

And I gotta say this, though.

Sometimes, in our own community, we paint pictures of ourselves that are not good for our mental health.

I'm thinking of things like art, like gangster rap music, things like that, right, where they're glorifying drugs, and sexualizing other people, and degrading women with name-calling, and things like that.

And so my question is this: How much does our own culture negatively impact our mental health?

- I have so many thoughts about this one.

So (laughs), I think one of the first things would be to remember we... This is where history is important and it is vital, we need to understand the history, culturally, of our art forms.

We need to understand the history of Black music, how it has evolved.

It is American music.

We have shaped the rest of the music of America, it is true, and- - And the world, really.

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- And when we look at it from that perspective and we see how it's evolved and also how white supremacy has had an impact on that, a lot of these major music labels, a lot of these other heads of these kind of art companies, these media companies, these are white people who are trying to put forth a certain image, - Right.

- and so it's not necessarily like, the best reflection of us.

Sometimes, there are some ulterior motives that are meant to paint us out to be a certain way - What are some common issues that you both see that happen within our community that people come in to see you for, or things that they're apprehensive about coming in to see you for?

- Yeah, so identity development is definitely a big one.

Race is, of course, like, probably first and foremost what I see the, like, people talk about the most, but when we look at just intersections in people's different identities and cultures that they bring into the room, a lot of my clients are queer, they're neurodivergent, and they have been, you know, diagnosed as quote, unquote, "oppositional defiant," or other, mm-hmm, it's a whole thing, or a bunch of other diagnoses that don't necessarily match what's going on for them, and so we're kind of pulling that apart, looking at other ways of understanding self and accepting self.

- You know, I've got people who come to the office, they're not gonna use the D word, they're never gonna say depression, but that is what they're experiencing, and just working through that, that identity development as well, you like, "Where do I fit in?

What's wrong with me?

What is the place that I'm supposed to be in?"

because they're having a hard time connecting to their peers or you know, they're having a hard time connecting at work and things like that, and there's a lot of racial undertones that are happening toward these things, so we never look at things from just a person-centered approach, but you know, what is a systemic approach as well that needs to be considered, and so we're always diving into those things, but that's what they're coming in for is "Help me to be able to navigate the environments that I live in."

- Mm.

- You know, "because I am important and I need to feel seen and appreciated in that space, as well."

- So you mentioned earlier the history of Black music, and African American music, specifically, and history is a big deal for us (chuckles) in this country, different than for people who are from Africa, right?

So there's this concept and this idea of epigenetic trauma or inherited memory, and I'm curious, do we, as Black Americans, owe it to our ancestors to carry that pain or to break the cycles?

- Yes.

So the idea of inherited trauma, epigenetics, we talk about this a lot in systemic therapy, believe it or not, but I don't think that the white founders really thought of it in this way, quite (laughs), but the idea that, like, your family history, there are pieces of that that come with you, and so with that are how you respond to things.

They may be trauma responses or just reactions that you're having to, like, deeply distressing events, and you may be like, "I don't know why I have such an aversion to water," for example.

That's a big thing with Black folks is, like, water, (Niecie laughs) - Mm-hmm, sure.

- and there might be some stuff there.

I mean, there might be - I mean, hey, - some transatlantic stuff.

- we came across the ocean on ships.

- That's what I'm saying.

(all laugh) That's what I'm saying.

I tend to just call them patterns, and you get to decide which ones do you keep, which ones do you let go of, and gentle release is a big thing for us as therapists.

We're like, "You can just gently release the thing, and just think about it, and gently..." You know, that whole, like, mindfulness and release that sort of thing, but truly, you decide which patterns you wanna hold onto and which ones you wanna let go because they're no longer serving you and your family.

- You deal a lot with transracial adoption, so people don't actually know their history, so how do you approach that when a client comes into your office and they're having issues that they may not know where those issues are coming from?

- Yeah, I mean, trauma is trauma, right, so whether it's passed down or not.

I always talk about just that concept of, I believe it's like, when your grandmother is pregnant with your mother, you are technically already inside of her as well, and so those things are being passed down, and whenever we do biopsychosocials, right, we talk about what was the pregnancy like?

Was it a stressful pregnancy, right?

That does impact the baby that you're about to give birth to.

And so those are things to consider when we're talking about that intergenerational trauma piece, but in my case, right, we don't always know the background stories of things, and often, when you do hear different stories about... I mean, adoption never stems from, generally, like, this positive experience, right, so we can almost assume that there was some trauma involved, and it is hard, as a transracial adoptee, or as an adoptee in general, to kind of like separate that story, and know that, like, you know, just because my parents went through this doesn't mean that I have to live this way, because we don't really have anything to fall back on.

- Yeah, and then you have them isolated from their own culture, - Yes.

- and they don't have as many peers to help them navigate - Yeah.

and feel like they are who they wanna be.

That's tough.

Growing up, a lot of times, in Black communities, when you're talking to your kids, you'll tell them, "Hey, listen, you gotta be twice as good (laughs) as the white kids to be equal to the white kids."

Now, how does that serve or hurt a child's mental health?

I'm curious about this.

- I'm going to use myself as a case study here.

(all laugh) but because I grew up in a home, my father, he passed a few months ago, rest in power, he was a cardiothoracic surgeon, went to University of California San Francisco for med school.

My mother is a registered nurse and a university professor.

- Wow!

High achieving people!

- Bingo, the ones who got out, they were from rural South Carolina, and so there was a big Black excellence type of feeling that was instilled in our family.

I mean, when I tell you everybody has more than a bachelor's degree, there are three people, no, wait, my mom, my sister, my mom, my dad, four people have doctorates, - Wow!

- the other three have master's degrees.

- Hmm.

- Whew!

- So, - You guys are educated!

- work ethic, educated, doing all the things that we were told to do, to be able to make it, we assimilated very well, in that way, to it.

It was helpful in some ways.

I will tell you, there were some drawbacks.

It was hard for me, sometimes, to connect with other people who weren't, like, as nerdy as me, 'cause I'm just, like, a bookish, nerdy person (chuckles), and in the Black community, sometimes, depending on where you're at, sometimes that's not very cool, - Right, unusual.

- but when I was able to... I think having a family who had, who kind of embodied those things, was helpful, but I think it made it harder.

And also, it was hard for white people to accept that I was maybe just as good, if not a little bit, little bit, - A little bit better (speakers drown each other out) - You know what I'm saying?

- You got a 99 and he got a 92.

How did that Black girl...?

(all laugh) - So I think there was some, like, some... I threatened a lot of people.

I still get that now.

People look at me, they're like, you are super intimidating, so - Wow!

- which I don't, - that's not my issue, I don't, like, I've let go of that, - Sure.

- but I think the way that I navigate the world I know is a threat to some people, and also, there is high anxiety and perfectionism that I've had to deconstruct as a result of the working twice as hard logic.

- Yeah, I think that there's some good that comes with it, but I also don't think it's our children or our responsibility to necessarily have to, like, put in extra, extra work just to be up there with everybody else, you know, because even up there with everybody else, like, we still have to navigate some of the same stuff.

Like, there's not this idea of, "Oh, I made it, I'm good.

Now I'm, like, free of discrimination or microaggressions."

No, we're still dealing with those in the workplace, you know, which is why a lot of us do our own private practice, so we don't have to deal with that in a workplace setting, but I do think that puts a lot of pressure on our youth, and they already have pressure coming from just the normalcies of being a child and being a teenager, and so now they leave the house and they have to be better, they have to, like, act better, they can't just like, you know, act like the rest of their peers.

I don't think that that's fair because they still are navigating a system of, I guess, a culture of white, of, like, white supremacy, right, and we already know that that system is incorrect, and so it's up to the system to change, not our children who are trying to navigate it.

- Wow!

What advice would both of you give to a young Black child or, you know, a child of color or, you know, an LGBTQ child, who's having some troubles and wanting to seek out some mental health, or having mental health issues.

What advice would you give to them?

- I would say that the challenges, the difficulties, whatever word you're using, those things are real, the burden, it's real, 'cause I hear, kids often come in, teens say, you know, "I'm trying not to be so angry, I'm trying not to be so mad," because they have already been stereotyped in that way as if their anger is, it's too much, compared to anger of, like, a white child or a child who is just not Black, and so I just wanna validate, "This is real, it is, again, intergenerational, it's compounded, this anger that you feel, this rage, and you don't have to hold that in anymore.

Come to therapy, let this be your release.

I'll let you yell, scream."

I have had children do that.

(Lonzo and Niecie laugh).

"This is your refuge.

Let this be a place where you can explore that in a safe, nurturing way."

- I love that.

What about you, Stormey?

- Yeah, I would say the same thing.

I actually, I mean, first week of school, had a child in my office that had dealt with, like, very direct racism on the first day, ended up going home, ended up in my office, super upset, full of anger, and it was so sad to watch, actually, because, you know, they are navigating a lot of the same things that, you know, the teens, or like, adults are still navigating, and he... Like, they were so young that they didn't really know what to do with it, you know?

But I guess my message would be like, it's okay that you're feeling the things that you're feeling, and also, it's okay to talk about the things that you're feeling, and that there's safety in these spaces, you know.

Our goal, as Black clinicians, is to create a lot of safety for our Black youth, specifically, you know, I mean, for everybody else who comes in, but definitely our Black youth here in Utah, because we know what it's like to navigate, like, everyday life in Utah, and so safety, safety is here for you, and we can find a way to create safety outside of here.

Let's talk about it.

- Wonderful.

- That's something!

- All right, well, we've come to the end here.

Where can we find out more information about where people can find you?

- Yes, so my private practice is called Visionary Liberation.

You can find me online, visionaryliberation.com.

On my socials, it's @nieciejonesphd.

- Wonderful.

Stormey?

- Okay, focalpointut.com.

Socials are focalpoint.ut, that's Instagram.

(all laugh) But yeah, focalpointut.com.

We've got a great team of clinicians, other clinicians of color as well, not just all Black, but you can just go there and do yourself a little intake.

- Well, thank you all for being here, for deconstructing this topic, for helping us understand that it's important for us to heal and to find help when we need it, as well.

From all of us at PBS Utah, thanks for joining the conversation.

As always, other episodes can be found on our website, pbsutah.org/roots, or on the PBS Utah YouTube channel.

- And if you have feedback or ideas for other episodes, be sure to give us a shout out on social media.

Until next time, for "Roots, Race, & Culture," y'all, we are out.

(lively rhythmic music) - [Announcer] Funding for "Roots, Race, & Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner, Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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