- Coming up next on "Black Issues Forum," Black depiction in children's books provide positive representation of Black people creating space for Black authors to see themselves on the pages.

- I wanted to create the book that I wish I got to read.

I come from a generation where you just had to vicariously place yourself in these situations.

But, you know, I think today what's important is that people see themselves in other characters.

- Our guests join me in the discussion right after this.

- [Announcer] "Black Issues Forum" is a production of PBS North Carolina with support from the Z Smith Reynolds Foundation.

Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm Kenia Thompson.

Only 30% of books published in 2022 portrayed Black characters in children's books.

While an improvement from previous years where the percentage was even lower, it does still indicate significant gaps in representation.

In recent years, there have been efforts to increase the representation of Black characters in children's books, including books that feature Black protagonists, as well as books that include Black characters in supporting roles.

Our guests are here to talk about why these images are important for not only Black children, but for all readers.

I'd like to welcome to the show librarian and author and archivist, Judy Allen Dodson, and author and minister and founder of The Refining Life, Dr. Renita Webb.

Welcome to the show, ladies.

- Hello.

- Good morning.

- Good morning, I'm so excited to have you both here.

I'd love to start off by allowing you both the opportunity to share your books with us and talk about why you felt led to create these narratives for children.

Judy, we'll start with you.

- Okay, thank you.

So my latest book is "The Ashe Brothers: How Arthur and Johnnie Changed Tennis Forever."

And that is a book about brotherly love, and the book centers around the relationship that Arthur and Johnny have and the special gift that Johnny gives to Arthur so that Arthur can become the first Black man to win the US Open in 1968.

Johnny does a second tour for his brother so Arthur doesn't have to so he can concentrate on his tennis career leading him to become the first Black man to win that coveted US Open Tennis championship.

- [Kenia] Wow, I love it.

- And I also have another book, "Escape from Hurricane Katrina," which also centers around twins.

So I love siblings, I love twins.

I love that storyline.

So it just gives me an opportunity to be able to show kids, young readers about how you can share your special gifts with your special sibling or your student, other students, and how you can love other people and share what you have to offer in this world.

- Now, are these inspired by real life stories or situations or just stories that you've created?

- Yes, "Escape from Hurricane Katrina" happened, what we know, it was probably one of the worst hurricanes in US history.

And so I wanted to be able to give this new generation of young readers an opportunity to experience this historical non-fiction with these two characters.

And, of course, the Ashe story is based off of the real character, Arthur Ashe and his brother who is still alive and lives in Florida.

So, yes, these are very inspirational stories that I wanted to be able to curate to be able to have an opportunity to share with students so that they know too that I don't have to do, be anything other than what I am, and I can give those gifts to others in my life.

- Yeah, that's a great way to incorporate some history in that too.

- Exactly.

- Dr. Renita Webb.

Let's talk about Dr. Webb's book.

Tell us a little bit about that.

- Well, I am so excited to be here today and to tell you about my book "While You Are Sleeping."

I have four wonderful and amazing children, two that I birthed, two that I own, I tell people all the time, we have a blended family.

And my two sons, I actually own them.

And I say I own them because I fed them long enough that they belong to me.

They are mine.

But one of my favorite parts of life, one of my favorite moments of the day, and sometimes it happens randomly during the day is to see my children while they are sleeping.

It's something even when they have been full children on that day, or as we say nowadays, the children are childrening.

They're doing all the things, and they may have you in a place where you're about to pull your hair out.

It's something about just observing them while they are sleeping that gives you a peace and a sense of serenity.

And the story is really a mom who is observing her children while they're sleeping.

And it's her hopes and her wonderings and her dreams for them and her prayers for them while they are sleeping.

And it takes you on this journey of her thoughts.

And I love to read it to my children at bedtime because we believe in bedtime stories.

It's something about having a story that is inspiring or a story that just fills you with hope and joy right before you go to sleep.

I think it helps you have sweet dreams.

And so, you know, it gives the kids the view of the parent so that they know what's happening while they are sleeping, what's really keeping those monsters away.

It's not just the monster spray in the closet.

It's really what the parents, and in this case a mother, is doing while they're sleeping to help keep these different things at bay simply because of her love and her care for her children.

- That's beautiful.

Yeah, and it's such a correct depiction, right?

I look in on my kids all the time when they're sleeping.

Well, we talk about representation of black and brown characters in children's books.

Those representations aren't just for black and brown children.

I'd love for both of you to share the impact that these images have on non-people of color.

Judy, we'll start with you.

- Yes, yes, I often think about that.

I often feel like when black children are not seen in life.

I feel like they don't see our children as human beings, they don't treat us as human beings, because they don't know us.

If our existence that isn't shown then and we're given this horrible depiction every time we see a Black person or a Black child on TV or in other instances, then when you see us, you fear us.

So I feel like once we are represented on the page in other instances, other cultures will eventually see us as human beings because they will see us often doing other things like living, just living our normal lives, reading, eating, driving, loving each other, and having relationships.

One of the reasons why I bring these relationships into my books so we can see how the interaction is between each other.

Because if someone else can see that, first of all, we need to see that ourselves, but if we can see that and give that to others, then I feel like in my heart that we will be treated differently and that fear of who we are as Black people will eventually go away if we're seen as human beings.

- Many great points.

Dr. Webb, do you have anything to add to that?

- Yeah, I would love to piggyback on this idea of humanizing people.

We are all a part of the human fabric, that human beautiful quilt that is the people of this world.

And it's really understanding that if you prick me, my blood is red, just like yours.

If you come to my house, you'll hear some verbiage that may also match your verbiage that's in your home and the feelings that are in your home.

We are humans, we have families, we live through situations, and they directly tie to so many other stories, but you won't know that if you never see us depicted in the tale.

So it's just like when the children go to the stores and you see a bunch of white dolls and then you think that that's what dolls should look like, and the pretty dolls are the white dolls because those are the ones that are there to be seen and they're dressed up.

Well, the pretty stories are our stories too.

The impactful stories are our stories too.

You just need to see us in them.

And sometimes literally, it just takes the illustration of a different color of skin to a story that may be the exact same story as another, but you realize that our stories aren't that different because we are human.

We may all have these unique experiences because people go through different comedies and tragedies and love stories and different types of relationships, but at the end of the day, it has nothing to do with the color of my skin.

It has to do with what I'm experiencing at the moment.

- Indeed.

We have a lot of viewers out here... Go ahead.

- Oh no, I just wanted to add to that as well.

I know Vanessa Brantley-Newton is just an amazing illustrator.

We have so many just phenomenal illustrators who are Black and who draw these just phenomenal, beautiful Black characters and put them on the page and put them on the screen and just like you said, Dr. Webb, to humanize us.

And so I also wanted to be able to say that we've always had this, but I think we need a balance of...

Some people say, oh, we only talk about slavery and enslavement, but we also talk about Black joy and Black boy magic and Black girl magic and Black boy joy.

And so I just feel like if we have a balance of those images, we get a better and a well-rounded idea of who we are as a people.

We have joys and just like you said, Dr. Webb, to humanize us, we have all types of experiences.

So I just feel like if we are seen in these different instances, in these different experiences, we tend to not only learn who we are ourselves, but other cultures respect us and learn us and not fear us and our children.

- Dr. Webb, what role do you think children's books can play in promoting social justice and equality?

When we talk about usage of literature to address issues of race and discrimination, how can we use these books to our advantage?

- Well, it's really telling the story.

The way that we can create more social justice in our world, equity in our world, is to tell the story.

People have to understand that it's not just the one narrative.

And I think that when we talk about places banning books and students not being able to learn about certain portions of history, that is when the erasure starts and that's when a new narrative can be created, and it's not really always the story.

And to understand the experiences of people, it can cause you to desire to have better.

It will cause you to want to make changes and understand why people make the decisions that they make.

It will make people understand, back to humanizing all humans.

And it will make people desire to treat others how they want to be treated., the whole idea of the golden rule, but you don't want to treat a person that way if you don't feel like they're a person.

If you can't feel their experiences and learn to empathize and sympathize with what they have been going through, to learn how to have those feelings and to crank up those emotions within you to say, "oh, that really wasn't right and that could have been me," to create human connection, and then you'll start seeing people say, "hold up, we've got to make change.

Hold up, the tables could turn."

And for children to hear this in ways that they can understand and so that sympathy and that empathy can start at early ages and to increase their emotional intelligence, to increase their intelligence of true history.

And not just black history, not just traditional European history, but all history because this goes beyond.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- Black and brown lines.

- [Kenia] Yeah, yeah.

- This is cultural awareness.

- Very important, it's very important.

- And creating those connections really will start to shift the mindsets.

- Yeah.

- Of people and start to make real change, and impact in our world.

- Indeed.

Well, earlier in the show we watched a clip of Grammy award-winning musician, DJ and Frontman of the Roots, Questlove, who has recently been a published author.

So he wanted to discuss the need for creation of his book, "The Rhythm of Time".

And here's a clip.

- The seed that I want to plant with these books and with everything I do is, you know, teach us how to dream, 'cause oftentimes we dismiss, or I even dismissed this dream, I wanted to write this book like at least 10 or 15 years ago, but I didn't think I was experienced enough to know that the scientific terms of time travel.

So, you know, that's when Shawn A Cosby, sort of came in and collaborated with me.

- And he goes on to talk about the artist, formerly known as Prince being the inspiration to the name of his publishing company.

And while he doesn't go into too much detail about the importance of black representation and publishing, I can imagine that there's a lot of potential for impact in the industry.

Judy, we know that we need more black authors, but is it also important to have black owned publishing companies too?

And what about the importance of collaboration that Quest spoke of?

- Yes, yes.

I have a lot of different views on that.

I think, yes, we have our own, we should always have our own, and that is important.

I know that the Hudsons, Cheryl and Wade Hudsons, they have their own publishing, you know company and they've been around, you know, forever and we've been so appreciative of them and the work that they do.

I also think that we need to work with the already established you know, top, you know, publishers as well.

I really feel like, you know, we need to, and I don't wanna say, I would like to say collaborate with the established other you know, established publishers as well.

And so what that means is, for us to be able to encourage them, and work with them and collaborate with them.

So not only are we having our books as creators in published by them but also having them have staff that is of color that is a good representation of what the world looks like in the front office as you would say.

- Yeah.

- So that means having editors who are of diverse backgrounds.

That means having people in publicity and marketing, to be be able to help, you know, publicize these books to different markets.

It also means looking at the agents who are representing these people of color, black people.

And I feel like the opportunity is there, the gatekeepers need to open up the gates wider and give us the opportunity as black people, to be able to come into these spaces and to be able to help from the front office, because we need the creators creating, but we also need the publishing houses, whether that be our own black publishers or whether that be other publishers as well.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- But we need to have representation within the front office as well.

- Yeah, I wanna bring Dr. Webb back in.

Talk about how the publishing industry can better support and promote black voices in children's literature even without black authors.

- Well, the first thing I think is to seek the stories and understand what stories are missing from the cannon.

Clearly there are so many stories to be told.

There are so many things that happen in lives and in different communities and sometimes those stories are silenced, simply because people don't know to seek them.

So to seek and you shall find, right?

So going to hear people talk, going into communities where you may not have been before, and seek the story.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- If we seek the stories, they will come.

And sometimes that may not come through a black author, maybe people really do do the research.

I'm a researcher at the end of the day.

I have a PhD, so I know I love research, really, but immersing yourself in an experience to be able to tell the story, but don't try to tell the story as if it's yours, if it's not yours.

- Yeah.

- That's the importance I think of having the black author.

- Yeah.

- Is because it's their story.

- Yeah.

- Well, Judy, I'm gonna bring you in to kind of piggyback off of this, but as a librarian, you know, she talked about the importance of going out, seeking these stories.

How can educators and librarians like yourself, better support black authors finding these stories, publishing and promoting diverse literature in schools, as well as the libraries in those schools?

- Yeah, sure.

We have to be intentional about how we spend our dollar.

We need allies, and allies come in very different forms, whether that is the caregiver and whether that is the what do I have, the caregiver, the librarian, the educators, to be able to go out and seek books that are diverse.

Because of course I want my children, I want our children to read books about black people, whether that is our history, whether that's about fiction, whether that's about animals or science or math or whatever.

I just feel like we have to be intentional on how we spend our dollars.

And when I say intentional, and Dr. Webb, I know you brought up the fact that, you know, sometimes it may be a story about a black person, but it may not be written about a black person.

And I feel very strongly about that that has happened over so many years that the black creator gets cut out.

And to me that is where we need to bring in the black creators and support them because we have families, right?

We have bills to pay, we have mouths to feed.

You know, we wanna be able to create wealth for our families as well.

So our stories are just that, our stories, and we should be able to live off of and create our stories and make a living off of our stories.

So over, you know, and a lot of times it's easier for a white author to talk about or write about and get paid for a story about a Black person when we are writing those stories as well, and we're not getting the opportunity to be able to tell our own stories or to be able to, you know, live off of those stories.

So it just reminds me of how we, that's how we can support Black creators, - Yeah.

- Is to be able to be intentional about our dollar and be able to research who has written that book just because there is a Black child or Black adults or family on the cover.

- Yeah.

- Just be able to be intentional and find out who has written that book.

And to be able to find out if it's a Black creator, be able to support those Black creators.

- So much good content.

Only a few minutes left in the show so I wanna make sure that we get all our questions in today.

Distributing Black literature for children is important for promoting representation, empathy, understanding, cultural appreciation, education, and so much more.

All the things that we've shared today it is an important step in promoting diversity, equity, and inclusion in children's literature and beyond.

To both of you, I wanna open this up Dr. Renita, you answering first, how do teachers and others get their hands on children's literature that depicts Black representation?

- Oh, it's out there and a lot of times you'll find it at some of your smaller bookstores.

Teachers have to go beyond what the school hands them.

They have to go find it.

The internet, it's right there at your fingertips.

- Right.

- Look for it.

Be in like, like Judy said, you have to got to be intentional.

Choose what's going in your classroom.

You know, as a veteran educator, I taught English, and having opportunities to put these books into the hands of my students, sometimes it was all on me.

I could not wait for the school book list to tell me that this was okay.

I had to really know what I needed to teach, what topics, what ideas we wanted to pull out, and then go find the story myself.

And then sometimes having to say, we are going to order this or pulling it out of my own pocket.

And then hopefully getting reimbursed.

But that didn't always happen.

Sometimes I had to make the investment to take the risk to change the face of the way things are taught in my classroom.

- Yeah.

Judy, just little less than two minutes left in this show, how can teachers, educators, parents get their hands on the books that our children need?

- Yeah, sure.

There are, just like Dr. Renita Webb said, there are so many resources out there on the web and we know that our time is so limited and we don't like have a lot of time to do a lot of research.

But we can do the research and like I said be intentional about our dollars.

But also too, there's a very good resource that you can use.

It's called the Brown Bookshelf, and they have a phenomenal list of Black creators, authors and illustrators and it's already pulled together.

And you just go to thebrownbookshelf.com and they have a curated list of historical from the beginning all the way into current of creators and up-and-coming creators as well.

- Beautiful.

So www.thebrownbookshelf.com?

- Yes.

- Beautiful.

I didn't even know that.

Renita, maybe 30 seconds.

If you can even sum this up, if someone wants to be an author they wanna create the stories that matter.

How do they start?

- Just write, write it down.

Take your time, take your thoughts, take your experiences and literally either self-record yourself on your phone or just start writing in a notebook.

That's how the best books are started.

It's just to start writing.

And don't be intimidated by the fact that maybe you've never done it before.

Your voice matters.

The way you speak matters.

And your story is needed.

- Wonderful.

Judy Dodson, Dr. Renita Webb, thank you so much for being here and we are grateful for your stories.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- We invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag Black Issues Forum.

You can also find our full episodes on PBSnc.org/Blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

Thank you for watching.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I will see you next time.

[upbeat music] - Black Issues Forum is a production of PBS North Carolina with support from the Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation.

Quality Public Television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.