- Coming up next on "Black Issues Forum", we'll talk about the growth in black media ownership right here in North Carolina.

And a continuing battle on the national stage.

- All Angela needs is that one role.

That one role that will get her nominated again.

And why we're so upset is because women of color don't typically get the opportunities to have that one role.

- We'll be right back after this.

- [Narrator] "Black Issues Forum" is a production of PBS North Carolina, with support from the Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation.

Quality Public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ [upbeat music continues] - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm Kenia Thompson.

The history of Black people in media has been a complex and often difficult one, marked by progress and setbacks.

But despite the progress made, there's still a long way to go, in terms of ensuring that Black people are fully included and represented in Hollywood.

To talk about the work that they're doing to break these glass ceilings, we invite to the show, Cary Wheelous, founder and CEO of Hayti, a media app, and platform for Black creators, Chris Everett, producer and director of the award-winning documentary film, "Wilmington on Fire."

And Angela Hollowell, host of "Honey and Hustle" podcast and founder of the Rootful Media.

Welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

- I'm sure all of you, along with many in the industry, have watched Angela Bassett's disappointed facial expressions when it was announced that Jamie Lee Curtis won the Oscar.

I wanna open up this question to all of you, but what were your reactions to that loss, Chris, starting with you?

Do you think that she was being a sore loser, as some of her peers have accused her of being?

- No, I don't think so.

I don't think she was being a sore loser at all.

You know, I think she worked hard for that role and she gave it all.

We all saw it on screen.

But I don't think that she should really feel disappointed.

You know, Angela Bassett is a living legend.

She's one of our greats, and also one of the greats in Hollywood as well.

So I think that, you always gonna be disappointed, if you don't win.

But I think, overall, I don't think she has nothing to feel disappointed about.

Angela Bassett is a tremendous talent.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

So the award was for Supporting Actress.

Cary, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that facial expression.

- Yeah, I actually had a chance to see it myself.

I don't think she was a sore loser at all.

I think, in fact, I'm upset myself.

This is emotional for her.

She's coming and playing a role after the loss of one of her co-stars, Chadwick Boseman.

And so, I think this was emotional for her and she put her all into it.

I saw that emotion on the screen.

And so, for me, oftentimes, a lot of our Black actors are underpaid, overworked, and disrespected.

And I think that it comes from the overall industry itself.

It is unfortunate too, because when you look at the numbers, you'll find that "Wakanda" obviously did close to $900 million in box office sales.

I think Jamie Lee Curtis, her movie, did about $135 million.

In addition to that, you'll find that once this movie was released, "Wakanda" was released on Disney Plus, the streaming platform.

It was the most watched streaming, most watched movie on Disney Plus streaming service in the history of Disney Plus.

- [Kenia] Wow.

- And so those numbers are huge and you can't walk away from those.

But I understand part of the reason why.

When you look at the Academy overall, the Academy, 10 years ago, it was 94% of them, the Academy members were White and 80% of them were male.

10 years ago, as of last year, that number has only been decreased about one, a little bit over one percent every year.

And so now that number is 81% of Academy members are White and 70%, approximately 70% of them are male.

And so their membership is invitation-only.

And so they control the membership, they control the votes.

Because their membership base actually votes on these particular awards.

And so until that dynamic has changed in Hollywood, I don't think that we're gonna be able to see really real change taking place when it comes to the award ceremonies.

- Angela, your reactions on the award?

- Absolutely.

I think, as an artist, you take pride in your work.

And so it's no surprise to me that she was disappointed.

It was no surprise to me that she didn't feel the need to be performative in her humility in a space like that.

She earned her right to be there, as every other actress in that category.

And it speaks a lot to her legacy, as Chris has said, as an actress, not only as a Black actress, not only as a Black woman actress.

But as an actress in Hollywood who has a career that she absolutely should be proud of and absolutely has set the tone for others coming behind her.

- Yeah.

- Chris, Sherri Shepherd said that Angela just needed that one more chance to win another Oscar, another worthy role.

But, you guys have kind of already alluded to it.

She's already had the chance.

"Stella Got Her Groove Back," now "Black Panther", "Black Panther Two."

What more Oscar-worthy role does she need?

- Honestly, they just keep moving the goalposts, honestly, every time.

So she does another Oscar-worthy role, and if she doesn't win again, we'll keep saying the same thing.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- Honestly, I think that, everyone wants to win an Oscar.

Everyone wants to win at Sundance.

When you're a creator, whether you're a filmmaker or actor, actress, but to me, that shouldn't really define who we are.

I think Angela, like I said earlier, Angela Bassett is a legend.

Her jersey is in the rafters.

You know, to me, I think she has nothing else to prove.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- To me, or anyone.

And I think that that's how we have to look at it.

I think that us as African-Americans, we've always been discriminated against.

These things really weren't created to include us.

And I think that, we still need to pursue these acting awards at the highest level.

But if we don't win, hey, it is what it is.

Honestly, I think we should concentrate on building our own industry, and really elevating our own actors, actresses, producers and directors.

- Yeah.

Cary, the civil rights movement of the 1960s led to increased pressure, not just in other spaces, but in Hollywood as well, to include more Black actors to portray them in more positive ways.

We've seen this more and more, but do you think that we've made true progress with the recurring scenarios like this Angela Bassett Oscar scenario?

- So yes, I think we make progress, but I still think there's a lot of work to be done.

And I think a lot of the work that needs to be done, oftentimes, it might have to come on our end.

We actually have to look sometimes outside of Hollywood.

Obviously, Tyler Perry is doing what he is doing.

It's an amazing job with his studio.

Michelle Sneed now, she actually has launched a studio, as well as Tammy Wilson.

And so we have to look to our production companies to be able to begin bringing our stories to light.

Oftentimes, we have to move away sometimes from Hollywood.

They're only gonna do so much.

We have to continue to put the pressure on them.

Absolutely we do, because that is the engine that drives engagement for a lot of people.

But as I mentioned, I think sometimes we have to look outside of the box as well to be able to share our stories and our information and get our stories out and make sure that they're told in the way that we want them to be told.

- Right, right.

Angela, Black-led films, they've been major box office successes in recent years, grossing some of the largest numbers.

You guys have already spoken about that, but your thoughts on the continued struggle to establish credibility.

We've proven the dollars, we've fought the narrative of having too much blackness on the screen.

What are your thoughts on that?

- As you said, the numbers speak for themselves.

In terms of credibility, when we're looking at numbers, we've already put the numbers up, and we're gonna continue to do that.

We've seen streaming services like Tubi and other things like that where Black creators have had success in not only creating independent films but getting them in front of their desired audiences.

And I think that's the trend that you're gonna continue to see as people really start to think about Black ownership of their own media.

How much equity are we getting in these franchises and how are we allowed to reinvest that back into Black filmmaking and Black storytelling?

- Chris, there's a strong push for a change in Hollywood, continued push, with the hashtag Oscars of white movement that draws attention to the lack of representation of Black people in Hollywood.

Conversations have been sparked asking for more inclusivity.

It's a buzzword, I know, but it's still needed in this space.

What does inclusivity look like to you in this space?

- Well, to me, you know, being inclusive honestly means the sharing of the resources.

Honestly, Black folks, we've been able to do a lot with less, especially in Hollywood and outside of Hollywood.

Including myself, even with my film, people look at it and it's like, "Man, you spent this amount of money?"

So I'm like, imagine if I had real budget, real resources.

And I think that's really, to me, what being inclusive is.

Give us the same budgets, the same opportunities, and we can make our own opportunity in our own way.

To me, I think that's what being really inclusive is for us as African Americans.

- Yeah, definitely.

Another area of concern in media is diversity and inclusion.

As the panel has already expressed, there's a need for more representation of the diversity of Black experiences in film and it is important to examine how Black people are included in media, whether it's in front of the camera or behind the camera or in leadership positions.

Question to all of you.

Opening it up, Cary, I'll start with you.

Please, I'd love for you to share with our audience the work that you're doing and how you're helping to shape it and change this narrative in the industry.

- Sure.

So thanks again for having me as well.

Our app, which is actually called Hayti, pays homage to the Hayti district in North Carolina, which is where North Carolina's Black Wall Street existed.

We actually are focused on highlighting content creators, Black content creators from around the world.

Publishers, journalists that are creating some amazing content and information.

Oftentimes, it doesn't get to mainstream.

In addition to podcasters, some incredible podcasts like Honey & Hustle from Angela's podcast.

These podcasts platforms that exist today and publishers that are creating this amazing content, oftentimes don't have the distribution.

And so a problem with them is that without distribution, they're not able to get the revenue.

And so they're all competing in this large media space.

And so what we've decided to do with our mobile app is to aggregate content from over 200 publishers that exist across America, over a thousand Black podcasters, all in one platform.

So you can be able to access this information easily.

Black culture's mainstream, it's for everybody.

Hayti is for everybody.

And now you can easily access it and give these content creators the distribution that they need and, ultimately, the revenue that they need to create films, to create more articles, to create more content, to create more podcasts for listeners that are interested in their product or their particular service offering.

- I love it.

It's so needed in this space.

Angela, he mentioned Honey & Hustle podcast.

Tell us a little bit about that and some other work that you're working on.

- Absolutely.

Honey & Hustle is a podcast that I started in 2020.

It is a video podcast and it is mainly focusing on entrepreneurs, founders, and creators here in North Carolina.

A lot of that really came out of really wanting to pass the mic to people who are doing incredible things around our state.

And digital media production company Rootful is an extension of that.

Rootful is where I produce photography and films, highlighting mainly social impact issues, human rights issues, environmental justice issues in and around the south.

I think as the famous saying, "The South has something to say," I think that's so prevalent, that's so needed.

And it's so true evermore.

And again, it's about really not even my stories or sharing my stories, but about being the conduit for other stories that have yet to be told, haven't been told at a grand scale, and that aren't really represented in traditional media outlets.

- Mm-hmm.

Onto Chris.

We're in the presence of an award-winning director and producer.

Talk to us about Wilmington on Fire and some of the other projects that you're working on.

- Yeah, well, Wilmington On Fire is a feature link documentary about the 1898 Wilmington massacre and chronicles the whole history behind that tragic event that led to Jim Crow segregation throughout North Carolina.

And so the film's been out a good six years.

It's screened all over the world, won numerous awards.

It's been featured in The New Yorker and BBC News, and countless other media outlets over the past six years as well.

So, it was one of my passion projects.

And one of the reasons why I decided to do it is kinda like what we're talking about today, the need to tell our stories.

No one was doing a film on the 1898 massacre.

And I say, why not me?

This story's important.

It needs to be told.

And so me and my crew, we just did our thing with a limited budget, [laughs] and so it was a real grassroots effort.

And a lot of support from the community.

And it just kind of just grew and grew into its own thing.

And so that's one of the reasons out of that film why I started my own film company, Speller Street Films, was to really tell these stories, whether it's documentary or narrative form, to really showcase our rich history and legacy throughout the South.

And that's what we strive to do.

We also do event productions as well to create different very interesting audience engagement experiences.

- I wanna share with the audience a clip from "Wilmington on Fire".

And then I wanna take a moment for you to share the significance behind that clip.

- They just put you out of a city and you can't come back.

You lose everything you've worked for.

It's just really sad.

But even reading this letter, I know he was a man of faith because he mentions God quite often in this.

- So tell us about that clip.

What was she referring to in that moment?

- Well, that was Faith Chaplin.

She's the great great granddaughter of Thomas C. Miller.

Thomas C. Miller was one of the wealthiest Black men in Wilmington prior to the 1898 massacre.

He was actually exiled from the city because of the 1898 massacre.

He was one of the Black leaders in the city.

And so with this massacre not only did they kill African Americans but they exiled a lot of the Black leadership as well.

And they were never to return ever again.

And so what she was doing, that's a clip from a letter that he actually wrote some of the White leaders that pretty much took over the city of Wilmington asking can he come back to attend his mom's funeral?

And they didn't even allow him to come back.

And so that's what she was really referring to.

And hearing those type of stories, those personal stories, from the great-grandchildren and grandchildren of some of those folks that were affected by the 1898 massacre, it's really touching, and it really makes you think a lot about what was lost, not only family legacies and stuff but also generational wealth as well.

- Cary, I wanna move on to you.

Back to Hey Tide, the app.

It's a platform that uplifts Black content creators.

What are some of the challenges creators face before coming to your platform?

- So one of the biggest challenges is, believe it or not, the algorithm.

Everybody has a feed, whether you use a social media platform or other platforms, everybody has a feed.

And that feed is typically controlled by major companies, Twitter and Facebook and Instagram.

And they actually decide what actually shows up in your feed based on their algorithm.

And so what we are doing at Hey Tide to be able to combat the algorithm is bringing all Black content creators to our platform to give them that distribution, to give them that outlet, to make sure that they can be able to get access or get eyeballs on their content so they can be able to generate revenue.

And so there is a big universe that exists and we wanna make sure that they get a piece of the pie.

Oftentimes the revenue that exists out here for these content creators is difficult to capture from major brands.

And so one other thing that we're actually doing is for the first time, we are going to be enabling our mobile users to financially support our content creators on our platform.

So if there is a particular journalist, if there's a particular podcaster on the platform, they can be able to support them financially.

And that's actually next up for us in our service offering to be able to make sure that these content creators not only stay here for now but they're here for the future to come as well.

- That's great.

Angela, you created your podcast during the pandemic.

What gap did you notice during this time?

I know we all needed to connect and communicate but what was the need for you that you saw needed to be filled?

- Connection to mentors, access to stories from people that you may not run into every day, and especially during the pandemic when we're pretty much locked down.

Coming from Alabama, I really didn't have access to a lot of entrepreneurs and founders who had the time and were willing to share their story.

And then moving to North Carolina, moving to Durham, it was like a whole new world opened up to me and I really decided that it shouldn't depend on where you live, what access you have to people who can help you, who can guide you, and who can just share their experiences.

And so "Honey and Hustle" really came out of the need and my own desire to ensure that no matter where anybody lives in this country, they have access to people who have been there, have thought about the things that they're thinking about when they're looking to start a nonprofit or a new business.

- That's great.

Chris, you recently revamped an old classical martial arts film, "Can I Kick It".

Talk about the representation you wanted to showcase there and how you created that space.

- Well, "Can I Kick It" is an engagement and experience that I actually partner with some good friends of mine out of Washington, DC called Shall and Jazz.

And what they do is pretty much take classic martial arts and action films and do a whole new film score to it using hip hop, rock, soul, and funk.

And so imagine watching "Enter the Dragon" by Bruce Lee and he's in a fight scene and then you hear a Wu-Tang Track come on or a Busta Rhymes track with Mobb Deep track, but it still fits the tone of what they're doing.

You can still hear the audio, the dialogue, all the punches and kicks and everything.

And so it's just a new way in experiencing a classic film, like you've never seen it before.

And so we've partnered a few times on a couple of events down here in North Carolina.

They're based out of DC so that's where they do most of their thing at.

But I decided to bring them down this way because we don't get those type of events a lot of times.

Those things are kind of regulated to DC, New York, out West.

So I was like, let's do something different for North Carolina and start bringing those type of audience engagements down this way.

And recently we did a great program where we partnered with the Town of Cary for Black History Month where we pretty much focused on African-American and martial arts.

So we showed a rough cut screening of my upcoming documentary, "Grandmaster: The Vic Moore Story".

- Which documents the life of Martial Arts Pioneer Vic Moore.

And then the next day we did the Can I Kick It Experience with Berry Gordy's "The Last Dragon."

And we had a special video intro by Taimak, the guy that plays Bruce Leroy in "The Last Dragon" and Shaolin Jazz did their thing to a sold out crowd of 500 folks.

And people were like, "Yo, we love this experience."

We didn't really understand what it was at first.

- Yeah.

- So you really have to, you know, go to it and check it out, but once you go to it, you'll love that experience.

- That's great, sounds wonderful.

Black-owned media outlets have historically played a vital role in providing a platform for black voices and perspectives.

But, as technology advances, we see an abundance of opportunities surfacing.

We see many black-owned production companies, like Tyler Perry Studios and Jordan Peele's Monkeypaw Productions that have successfully diversified casting and storytelling.

Right here in North Carolina we have Ascent Studios breaking ground in Spring Hope located on 200 acres.

The facility will include five production stages.

Totaling 17,000 square feet.

Making it the largest film studio in the state.

And that, my correction, 170,000 square feet actually.

Angela what, in your opinion, do we need to do more of to see efforts like this continued?

- I think we're seeing glimpses of that with, you know, production companies like Issa Rae's, Hoorae Productions.

We're seeing glimpses of that with Keke Palmer's new production company as well.

One of the things is diversification, right.

Not everybody is gonna have access to 170,000 square feet worth of studio footage.

That's just the reality.

That does not mean you can't create something incredible that an audience will love.

So I think we're seeing that, you know, it doesn't have to look like, you know, a TV level production.

It doesn't have to look like an ABC deal.

It doesn't have to look like an HBO deal.

It can look like a dedicated YouTube channel.

- Yeah.

- It can look like, you know, an exclusive feed, like Hey Ty.

Can look like a paid feed.

Like KevOnStage Studios has his own paid app and platform that is akin to a Netflix or an HBO.

So I think we're seeing, one, the diversification of ways people are approaching, creating, and distribution.

But we're also seeing people pass the mic on how they approached building their empires.

Issa Rae has been known to share her story.

Tyler Perry has being more open about it.

Jordan Peele's going on every interview you can think of to share, you know his transition from actor to director.

And so, I think that that's more of what we need is, you know, people sharing how the different ways that you can create and get your work in front of audiences.

- Wonderful, Chris, when we talk about creating our own media, how do we ensure that we are seen and we're heard in such a competitive industry?

- I just think that, you know you just have to be creative.

And, you know, and find the best way to stay out there to separate yourself.

You know, I love the internet, you know.

Yeah, the internet can be used for some crazy stuff, but I think without the internet, I wouldn't have been able to promote, you know, and get Wilmington out, "Wilmington on Fire" out there.

You know, when I made "Wilmington on Fire", I was living in a small town of Laurinburg, North Carolina.

And when I finished it, I was still in Laurinburg, North Carolina.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- And there's no one out there doing anything like what I was doing.

So I had to really rely on the net and on the internet.

And so I was able to attract certain celebrities that heard about, you know, the 1898 story and heard about my film.

They were sharing it.

Letting people know about it.

So I think really utilizing the internet can...

It is really a game changer.

I think the internet is really a game changer if we really figure out how to navigate it and figure out those algorithms and stuff like that.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- And I think, really, you know, separate us, you know, from the rest of the pack.

- Mm hmm.

I just learned that North Carolina filmmakers receive a 25% cash rebate on all materials and labors that's spent on qualifying production paid out by the North Carolina Film and Entertainment Grant.

Cary, your thoughts.

About a minute left in the show.

how does this incentive support our filmmakers?

- Obviously that can go a long way.

You know, film production, production overall, is not cheap.

And so any benefit that we can have, any tax credit that we can be able to get to help us to be able to expand our offerings is gonna be extremely helpful in the long, on the long term.

Obviously, you're talking about space.

You're talking about, you know, studio.

You're talking about employers that you need or staff, staffing, that you need to be able to bring, you know, these amazing stories to screens.

And, you know, having these benefits that are coming our way, here in North Carolina, is only gonna benefit the actors.

But, a long term, it'll benefit the industry overall as we look to kind of grow and scale and get these stories out on a much larger scale.

- Yeah, great opportunities for our filmmakers and our creatives in this space.

Cary Wheelous, Chris Everett, Angela Hollowell.

Thank you so much for your work and for sharing your talent with us today.

[Vibrant music] - Absolutely.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- We invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag Black Issues Forum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

Thank you for watching.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

[upbeat music] ♪ - [Narrator] Black Issues Forum is a production of PBS North Carolina with support from the Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation.

[upbeat music] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.