♪ >> Hello everyone.

I'm Jim Deeks.

Thanks for joining us on another episode of Canada Files .

Our guest on this edition is Bob Rae.

Currently Canada's ambassador to the United Nations.

For over 40 years, one of our country's most respected career politicians.

At one time, the premier or governor, of Ontario.

Later the interim leader of the national Liberal Party.

Because or in spite of his left-of-centre political philosophy, a man who has been highly regarded by all for his intellect, eloquence, charm and sense of justice.

We caught up with Ambassador Rae in New York City.

>> Ambassador Rae, we know how very busy you are at the UN these days so we appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

>> Jim, it's great to be with you.

I really appreciate your joining us here at our apartment.

Wonderful to welcome you here.

>> We appreciate being allowed in your living room!

Let me start, of course, with the situation in Ukraine.

Because of production scheduling, we're recording this interview in early April.

By the time it is broadcast, things may have changed dramatically.

At this point, we're over 6 weeks since the Russians invaded Ukraine.

Let me ask, first of all, whether you and your colleagues in the UN think there is any chance, considering the destruction and genocide we've seen, that Ukraine will ever again be an independent country?

>> I think so.

I firmly believe Ukraine will be an independent country.

It is an independent country.

The invasion is terrible and has no justification.

It's one of the most blatant acts of aggression by one UN member against another that we've seen since 1945.

There are a few examples over the last 75 years.

This is one of the worst and most destructive.

I believe that Ukraine will prevail.

The Russians have made a terrible mistake.

They've calculated they could do something quickly.

Could destroy Ukraine's independence quickly.

And nobody would notice.

The Americans would not interfere.

The rest of us wouldn't do very much.

They've underestimated the Ukrainian people and the determination of Western countries.

They've found themselves, as we speak in early April, in a terrible situation.

We've just heard over the last few days, terrible revelations of what can only be described as atrocities.

People being killed with their arms tied behind their back.

We're getting increasing knowledge of how many are being killed throughout the country.

This will mobilize, I believe more and more, mobilize the Western countries together with the Ukraine to say this is not going to be allowed to take the course that the Russians wanted it to.

I'm quite confident that ultimately Ukraine will prevail.

>> At the outset, when the Russians did invade, did you and your colleagues think that the United Nations could have done anything to prevent the invasion?

Or persuade the Russians to pull back before it got out of hand?

>> I don't think so.

Because the Russians ever really believed that the West would respond in the way it did.

Let's not forget we did give warnings.

President Biden on behalf of a number of countries made it very clear that this was going to be...

There would be a response to an invasion such that Russia had never seen before.

I don't think the Russians believed it.

The Russians and President Putin thought that wouldn't happen.

However, having said that, I've always been somebody who, whenever I look back to see something happening or happened, I always ask myself the question, "What more could we have done?"

To be honest, we could have given even more of a warning to the Russians.

But at the end of the day, I don't think the Russians would have believed it.

The fundamental problem with Ukraine is the Russians do not accept that fact that Ukraine is an independent country.

That Ukrainian nationalism is real, not a made-up thing.

Not a Nazi...invention.

It's a sense of country, place, language and culture.

Which Canadians instinctively understand because there are so many Ukrainians in Canada.

We know the strength of that culture.

We know it's not Russian.

We know it's Ukrainian.

That's what gives us as Canadians a particular perspective on what the Ukrainian nationality is all about.

>> The fact that the invasion happened and the UN really hasn't been able to physically stop it from happening.

Has this situation proven, perhaps once and for all, despite the initial objectives of the UN when it was established in 1945, that, in fact, it's an organization that's basically powerless to stop international conflict?

>> As an organization, it can't stop international conflict.

Because it doesn't have the means to do so.

Doesn't have an army... not an organization that commands the power to do that.

That's very clear.

We have to always go beyond the name, United Nations and say, "It's the member states of the UN that have not been able to stop it".

Sometimes we blame the organization.

Richard Holbrook, who was American ambassador here many years ago, used to say, "Don't blame Madison Square Gardens every time the Knicks lose".

He was making a point about don't blame the UN every time something goes wrong.

Look at the member states and ask yourselves the question.

Could they be doing more?

That is the real question.

Can we do more?

As we talk at this particular time, we've done a lot.

A lot on sanctions, arming the Ukraine.

Giving them the military means to respond.

Done a lot on really trying to pursue this issue of accountability.

The way we have to hold the Russians accountable for what's taken place.

A lot on the humanitarian side.

There's been an extraordinary humanitarian effort to respond to the 11 million Ukrainians that have now been displaced.

But it's still not enough.

We still haven't stopped the Russians.

The fundamental question is, "What more can we do to stop the invasion?"

That has to become much more the central question.

That is the central issue.

>> Let's talk about your role during this Ukrainian situation.

As you would well know, Canada has had a reputation for three generations at least as a great peace-keeping nation.

Do your colleagues in the UN look at you personally and Canada as being a leader in trying to bring peace in this and other situations?

>> I can't really answer that question.

We do have a good reputation at the UN.

My impression, from talking to my colleagues and our positions on things, people are very responsive to it.

Not only are our traditional allies in NATO, Western Europe and the United States but also many countries in other parts of the world.

They've had experience working with Canada, Canadians.

Many African countries... where Canadians have been involved over the years.

Canada's reputation is a good one.

It's always a challenge to live up to your reputation.

To make sure you are walking the talk.

Certainly our role here at the UN on Ukraine has been very active.

We've been a very active part of the discussions, on what steps should be taken to deal with the aggression.

We've been very active speaking out on the aggression and meeting privately and confidentially with a number of major players.

To talk about what might be done.

What more we could do, how we could advance that.

Canada has been very engaged.

I personally have been very engaged in all parts of what needs to happen.

And will continue to do that.

>> One of the assumptions that people make about diplomats is that they have to be extremely talented in the skill of the art of understatement.

Polite discretion.

But you have been quite outspoken since you arrived at the UN over 2 years ago.

In particular, in your comments about the Russian aggression on Ukraine.

Knowing you, these statements of yours would be coming totally from the heart and your innate sense of justice.

Have you shocked your diplomatic colleagues in view of the art of understatement with some of your strong convictions and statements?

>> I don't know if the word is "shocked".

Some of them are bemused, amazed, and envious at my determination to speak out.

And the fact that so far, as we're speaking, I'm still here.

The government is letting me do... what I think is my job.

The government agrees that it's important for the world to know where Canada stands.

The Prime Minister has been very encouraging to me personally to keep doing what I'm doing.

A couple of times, he said to me, "That's why you're there".

I do think in today's world, there is a time for really communicating directly with people.

It's appreciated if we can do that.

>> Moving beyond Ukraine, as you well know, there are other conflicts going on around the world.

In Yemen, serious and very nasty conflict there.

In Myanmar which you would know from personal experience.

There's one that's looming that keeps all of us awake at night.

That is the possible aggression against Taiwan by the Chinese.

I'm sure you won't want to speculate whether or not that will happen.

Let me ask this.

Can you say if there are talks going on in the UN now to try to exert influence on the Chinese?

To not go ahead with any aggression against Taiwan?

>> Yes, I can say there are always quiet conversations that happen among allies and with other governments.

Certainly with governments in the region in Asia.

It's important for Canadians to understand that the Korean conflict has never been fully resolved.

We still have North Korea with nuclear weapons.

Japan is obviously a critical regional power, deeply concerned about the situation with North Korea.

Also deeply concerned about China and the possibility of greater conflict there.

It's fair to share that one of the things that's true about the UN is that we're very aware that just because something isn't in the news doesn't mean it isn't real, or isn't something coming.

Whether it's the Middle East... here we are in early April.

Easter, Ramadan and Passover are all taking place simultaneously over the next 10 days.

No idea what could or could not happen as a result of that.

What the implications of that could be.

Plus the uncertainty of conflict.

I always remind people in the Americas if you had diplomats sitting around 10 years ago saying, "Do you think 6 million refugees will be coming out of Venezuela?"

They would have said, "What are you talking about?"

Nobody predicted that would happen, or in the way it did That's an enormous source of instability for all of the Americas to have seen that conflict to blow up out of a condition inside Venezuela.

Nobody was fully apprised of how serious that was going to be.

So we have to keep our eyes and ears open for all conflicts.

We have to keep talking about them.

Certainly I do, engaging with a number of allies and others too including the Chinese.

>> One of the other items that keeps people awake is the fear that China and Russia are becoming allied in a closer way.

That might become more prominent if Russia succeeds in annexing Ukraine.

We don't know, of course.

Do you believe that outcome is a distinct possibility?

That those two countries will get closer together?

And if so, what does that mean for the future of democracy?

When you have the most populous country in the world and one of the strongest, least friendly nations to democracy together.

>> It's not the first time.

There was a time of rapprochement between Russia and China when they were both communist countries.

Then there was a certain falling out... and different kinds of relationships over the years.

...with respect to the issue of annexing Ukraine I don't think that's going to happen.

The Russians won't be allowed to get away with that.

I don't think that's going to take place.

What I do think is there could be an alliance ... an opportunistic alliance between the two of them.

There sort of is already now, on a number of issues.

Where you can see at the UN how they work together.

They obviously are linking their approaches on a number of topics at the UN.

Around women's and human rights, more broadly democratic rights.

Is it a threat to democracy?

Absolutely!

Democracy is a highly-contested idea in the world today.

For awhile, in the post-1990 end of the Berlin Wall, there was a sense of triumphalism, of the inevitability of the rise of, and hegemony of, democracy.

That it would spread and prevail around the world.

We've all had to come to grips of one simple fact.

There's nothing inevitable about anything.

Democracy is a wonderful idea.

It responds to something very deep in the human spirit.

But it doesn't mean the bad guys are going to let it happen.

So we have to be prepared for a battle.

It doesn't have to be only a military battle.

It's a battle of ideas.

It requires both soft and hard power.

We're having to come to terms with that as Canadians.

We live in a world where bad things will happen, and bad things will prevail unless we're prepared to fight for what we believe in.

I firmly believe that's true.

>> Let's talk about more good things.

You are probably not the first son of a UN ambassador to be an ambassador to the UN.

Your father, Saul Rae, was one of Canada's most distinguished diplomats in the latter half of the 20th century.

You spent most of your career as a politician.

I assume your dad gave you lots of good advice along the way.

Can you expound a bit... on some of the learnings that he gave you from his distinguished career?

>> I had a wonderful relationship with my father.

Several things he said to me over the years that always had an impact.

The first is something people might find funny.

My dad said to me, "If you're going to give a talk, be out there speaking, take the stage"."

"Don't look down at your shoes, pause or hesitate.

Just talk."

Luckily, I always had the gift of the gab.

From childhood-- didn't hold me back.

He said to feel confident in yourself.

"If you don't have to, or don't want to do it, don't do it."

"But if that's what you're going to do, do it well!"

Second, there's a difference between saying & proving things.

You've got to be learning.

Finally, talking to a very precocious young man, he said, "You got to learn how to listen".

"Listen to what you're hearing from other people."

I've always remembered that.

Now of course, my dad is long passed away.

Particularly now in this job in New York, I really feel his presence is all around me.

I feel very lucky to be his son.

My mom was a huge influence as well.

She lived to be much older, and died when she was 100.

She was going strong until the very end.

Had lots of advice for me when I was in politics.

I think they would both be delighted that I'm given the chance to do this job.

Because I think they felt this was a natural thing for me to be doing.

I must confess I feel very much at home in New York and at the UN.

>> It's a very nice culmination to your career.

Which was mainly political.

A lot of people, knowing your political history, would say you've been a victim of bad luck and bad timing through your political career.

You were a socialist-leaning premier of Ontario at a time when a major recession came in 1990-91.

Which prevented your government from bringing in a number of social programs that you would have liked to do.

But the money just wasn't in the coffers.

Later, you became the interim leader of the national Liberal Party.

At a time when the Conservatives had a majority government.

So you really didn't have the influence that you might liked to have had.

When you look back on your career is it with disappointment and regret?

Or was it a rewarding run?

>> No regrets at all.

What you've described could make somebody say, "Too bad".

But I don't look back with regrets in the least.

I feel I've been very lucky in so many ways.

Lucky in my personal life, with my children and Arlene.

It's been amazing.

When I look back at the number of things I've been able to do-- political leadership, yes of course.

Helping to save the Toronto Symphony.

Working on the Myanmar file.

Understanding better our refuge crisis and how to deal with it.

I've had an incredible range of issues-- working in the far North with Indigenous groups.

I feel very blessed and have no regrets at all.

I'm glad you think this is my culminating moment but I don't feel the culmination come yet.

I'm still looking around, going strong.

>> I was going to ask, would you have made a great prime minister but let me put it this way.

Will you make a great prime minister one day?

>> We have a prime minister whom I'm delighted to serve.

I've no idea if that opportunity could or would arise.

I've learned a lot.

I got better as premier as time went on.

It was hard at the beginning for me, hard for everybody.

I found I got better and more comfortable with it.

I must confess I think there's something to be said for experience in whatever you're doing.

In many points in my career, I was used to being the youngest or the first.

I was elected to Parliament when I was 30.

I was leader of a party when I was 33.

I was premier when I was 41.

You look back and say that's all very early .

Now people say you're 73 now.

I say I feel good, my health is fine.

I feel very lucky to be able to contribute the way I can.

>> Before we come to a close, I want to ask your feelings about America today.

I don't want to pin you down to your feelings about the current or previous president.

I'm sure you'd agree that America is in a less happy state than it was through most of our lifetimes.

What's your feeling about America?

Is democracy in trouble in the US?

>> I do think we are at a challenging moment in American history.

...the push and pull of democracy and the degree of polarization has been very tough.

I share the concern of many people and Americans about the fate and importance of American democracy.

The one thing I can say, as we speak...

I've just come away from a lunch with the American ambassador, Linda Thomas-Greenfield.

Who is a wonderful representative of the US.

A wonderful person.

I was reflecting after that conversation I had with her, what a difference it has made to have an administration that actually believes in the United Nations.

That's prepared to help really make the UN work.

We wouldn't have a United Nations if it wasn't for the US.

If it wasn't for American leadership, the UN wouldn't exist in the form that it does exist.

The final point I want to make is I have enormous confidence in the American people.

And in the triumph I would call the American spirit.

The ability of the US to take things to the next level and to reach out.

The way that relationship between our two countries is so significant and important.

Of course, we're concerned.

About democracy everywhere and in our own country, Canada.

We have to be aware there's some good people who are fighting the good fight on democracy.

We need to work very closely with them on that.

I hope we can do that here at the UN and elsewhere.

Certainly the UN is one of the great battlefields for the idea of democracy.

We're experiencing that every day.

>> That's a good segue into my last question.

One I ask all guests on Canada Files .

It will be interesting from your perspective having been at the UN for the last 2.5 years.

What does being Canadian mean to you?

>> For me, being a Canadian means having the world in me and feeling I am at home in the world.

I really think our country is a special place.

Because we've opened ourselves up to the world in such a significant way.

In my lifetime than ever before.

Also because as a Canadian and having grown up as an international kid, if you like, I feel so strongly that we are a country that should feel at home in the world.

We can work with all the people in the world in a way that doesn't impose on other people but embraces them.

That spirit of being a Canadian is extremely meaningful and important to me.

>> Ambassador Rae, thank you so much for your time.

And your service on behalf of our country at the UN.

It's been great having you on Canada Files .

>> Thank you so much, Jim.

Good to be with you too.

>> And thank you for watching.

We'll see you next time with another edition of Canada Files .

♪