There's shock, anger, disbelief.

It's a video released 15 minutes ago on social media.

A voice yells out, "Bro, they're burning the Ten Commandments!"

Has anybody actually proven that this video is real?

ANN COULTER: As long as I have all these followers, I'm going to be broadcasting like mad.

If it's cooking, we can't stop it from cooking.

I don't trust technology.

I want a human being to tell me that they saw it.

500,000 views.

It's a parent's nightmare, and you've got national politics involved, state politics.

I didn't get to be where I am by just jumping because somebody yelled at me.

We have not caused this.

Whoever did it did a horrendous thing that has divided our community.

You're gonna get a lot of blowback when the truth comes out.

We would all do a little bit good to reach over and actually try to understand where they're coming from.

But it's the community and the country's opportunity to show forgiveness.

Who do you take yourself to be?

What kind of country do you want?

♪ ♪ ANNOUNCER: Funding for this program was provided in part by a grant from Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and by a grant from Anne Ray Foundation, a Margaret A. Cargill Philanthropy.

And by contributions from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Location furnished by The New York Historical.

AARON TANG: Panelists, welcome.

We'll begin our story in the state of Middlevania, in the town of Libertyville, where many of you live.

And right away, we have a difficult decision for you, Eddie Glaude.

Mr.

Glaude, you are a high school civics teacher, beloved by your students.

Here's your dilemma.

The Libertyville School Board has just decided that the Ten Commandments must be hung on the wall of every classroom.

You're holding the poster that the school board has printed out, purchased for you to put up on your wall.

What are you going to do with it?

(laughter) Really?

Put it under my desk.

TANG: Why?

I've made the choice.

We're not going to do that.

Do you have a problem with the Ten Commandments?

Are you in favor of lying, dishonoring... - No, I'm a Christian.

TANG: You're a Christian?

- Yeah.

TANG: And yet... - I believe in separation of church and state.

Fundamentally.

TANG: You have kids in college, tuition bills, a mortgage.

Indeed.

(laughter) Are you prepared for what might happen to you if you take that step?

No, no.

But there, there are principles, um, that I hold that are a reflection of how I was raised in a small Catholic community, before I made my way to Libertyville, and I want to live up to what my mom and my dad taught me.

TANG: Wow.

Tina Descovich... - (clears throat softly) TANG: ...you are a member of the Libertyville School Board, the very school board that voted for this Ten Commandments policy.

You are very popular.

You were elected to your seat by a wide margin.

I've got to ask, were you in favor of putting the Ten Commandments up on walls for our students?

It's a great question that you really do have to ponder.

Is it being put on the wall because you're trying to preach Christianity to the classroom, or is it being put on the wall because of the historical reference that the Ten Commandments has in the founding of our country?

- What do you think?

I think it has this great historical record... TANG: Sure.

- ...when it comes to the founding of our country, and what we were built on, and Judeo-Christian values.

So, I don't think it's a religious thing, necessarily, to put them on the wall.

And if the school board voted, sir, that you need to put them on the wall, you're probably going to lose your job real quick if you put them on the floor.

TANG: And in fact, the school board did vote.

It was a three-two vote in favor of this policy.

Tension is building in Libertyville.

People are upset, unsure about this Ten Commandments policy.

Let's meet two other of our community members.

Stephanie Ruhle, Rick Wilson.

The two of you live here in Libertyville, too, and you're married, to each other.

- Lucky Rick!

(laughter) Lucky, lucky me!

TANG: Lucky Rick.

Absolutely.

Stephanie, you are a well-known, nationally known, TV journalist.

Rick, you are a campaign manager.

In fact, the campaign manager for Middlevania's sitting governor, who is locked in a tight reelection battle.

The two of you have heard about this school board Ten Commandments policy, and you've heard about a protest against the Ten Commandments policy.

Will you go to the protest?

I think we should.

Because... The authentic values of this country embedded in the Constitution that we will have a bright-line separation between church and state, that the state, that the government will have no role in establishing a religion.

- But I think we should show up to stand up for our teachers.

WILSON: Absolutely.

RUHLE: If we are lucky enough to have the fantastic teachers that we do, why are we putting them in this position?

And if they don't feel comfortable doing this, then let's make sure we have their backs.

Because God help it, if these teachers get fired, who do you think is going to replace them?

TANG: Let's go now to our protest in Libertyville's Town Square.

Tina Descovich.

You're there with the other members of the school board.

You're also joined by your son, who's a senior in high school.

Somewhere, an argument breaks out.

People are yelling, shouting, they're angry.

They're shoving and pushing.

Punches are thrown.

Town Square is descending into chaos.

Finally, the police come and they break up the scene, when, all around, people's faces are lit up by their cell phone screens.

There's shock, anger, disbelief.

It's a video, released 15 minutes ago on social media, already up to 30,000 views.

It's a video of the protest that just happened.

A voice yells out, "Bro!

They're burning the Ten Commandments!"

And then the camera pans over to a burst of flame on the ground.

It is a copy of the poster that the school board purchased to be hung in the classrooms.

It's on fire.

The video ends.

Walter Isaacson.

Do you believe it, this video?

- You know, unfortunately, you're probably going to believe it instantly, and, in this day and age, you really got to check.

It'd be easy to fake that video.

TANG: Interesting.

Miss Descovich, do you believe it?

My initial thoughts would be, "This is probably true," but... You know, you haven't asked, but I would not reshare that information at that point yet... TANG: Okay.

- ...until I could confirm that that actually happened there.

RUHLE: Or how about who did it?

Because the assumption... Let's say it was set on fire.

- Okay.

It doesn't mean that it was a protester.

TANG: Ah.

Let me tell you what we know.

It's not generated by A.I.

It's not manipulated by A.I.

There's a geotag on the video.

It was taken here, at Town Square.

There's a timestamp.

It was taken during the heat of the protest.

So, Mr.

Isaacson, do you believe it now?

- Yeah.

TANG: Yeah.

- I'd definitely believe it.

And, you know, I'd worry about the fact that the algorithm of whatever social media I'm using is going to use that to really make things worse.

- Miss Descovich?

I don't trust technology.

I want a human being to tell me that they saw it, they witnessed it, they did it.

I would have to have more information still.

And I have to do my due diligence.

I have to feel good about it, I have to know, I... Because I know, when I reshare that... As a, as a leader in the community, if I share that, people will... TANG: I'm not asking-- sorry... DESCOVICH: People will trust.

- Yes, yes.

And so, you're asking if I believe it.

TANG: Yes.

- And if I believe it, I'm going to share it.

TANG: I see, I see.

- And so... TANG: So you're not there yet.

- I'm not, I'm not there yet.

TANG: Okay.

Lots of people are paying attention to the video, especially you, Roger Severino, and you, Kristin Davison.

Mr.

Severino, you are the challenger party's candidate for governor of Middlevania.

The election is in two weeks, and polls are tied.

Miss Davison, you are Mr.

Severino's trusted campaign manager.

It's now been an hour since the video was first released on social media.

It's up to 500,000 views.

Donations through the roof.

Phones off the hook-- calls to volunteer.

All because people believe that you, Roger Severino, will stand up for the Ten Commandments.

Are they right about that?

- Absolutely.

I think we should go to the town.

We, we should go there and hold an event, and, you know, we should probably rally together teachers who also would be fine with the Ten Commandments.

Let's get some of the school board members, maybe some families, and let's even reach out to the teacher who didn't want the Ten Commandments shown.

Let's try to, you know, go and surprise folks and go sit down with him.

That's what I think we should do.

- Could we go one step further?

Let's get a granite Ten Commandments monument... - Ooh.

- ...on a truck, and you bring it into the Town Square, and then we say to the people, "This cannot be burned down.

And I dare you to try to burn it here."

Only if we can send a fundraising email that says, "Chip in ten dollars to fund the granite Ten Commandments."

(laughter) RUHLE: It's extraordinary politically convenient that you've got a granite Ten Commandments at the ready and a fundraising email.

(laughter) WILSON: Hold up.

The question here is not between hanging the Ten Commandments in the classroom and some idiot who may or may not have burned it.

The question is, are you going to pay attention to the black-letter text of the United States Constitution when we talk about "no establishment of religion"?

You want your culture war issue front and center.

SEVERINO: The Constitution says, "Congress shall make no law "respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

We had established churches at the founding.

You are, you are trying to drive a very thin wedge into very clear, black-letter Constitutional law.

TANG: Okay, folks.

I want to meet the governor of the great state of Middlevania, who's sitting at his desk, Mitch Landrieu.

- Got promoted, thank you.

(laughter) I love that.

TANG: Congratulations, Governor.

- Thank you so much.

TANG: Although, in two weeks, re-election.

- I'm out.

I'm out.

TANG: Well, I don't know.

We'll see.

- (laughs) TANG: So Governor Landrieu, you are sitting at your desk.

It's now been two hours since the Ten Commandments video was released.

One million views, perhaps in part because of this very persuasive fundraising email.

I'm wondering, if the shoe were on the other foot, if there were a viral video out there that was bad for the Severino campaign, good for your campaign, would you do the same thing?

- I, I wouldn't.

If you are a, a sitting governor, your first order of business is to keep the peace and to try to make sure everybody's safe and secure.

I am just dying to know what your campaign manager, "Bulldog" Rick Wilson, thinks about the idea that something happens on social media that's bad for your opponent and good for you, you wouldn't touch it?

- I agree, and, and I also agree that, that doing the right thing and doing the right political thing can be the same thing.

Being the bigger person, not playing the culture war circus game that is played by one of the parties very frequently, is something that I think a lot of voters are now looking for in the country, and in, and in Middlevania, obviously, we've had great success with, with electing Mitch, because in part, he takes that upper path.

TANG: Miss Coulter, you are a nationally prominent political commentator with an enormous following on social media.

Do you have any intuition about why so many Americans are captivated by the Ten Commandments burning in Libertyville?

I have no idea what makes something go viral.

As long as I have all these followers, though, I'm going to be broadcasting like mad.

Roger is right.

The Constitution says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," and that's so the federal government can't stop states from establishing religions.

TANG: So is this what you put out in your podcast?

Yep.

(laughter) I don't know what goes viral, but I'm thinking that's going viral.

(laughs) TANG: I am curious, though.

Do you feel like it's your job to verify more what actually happened in Libertyville?

Why would I, why would I care?

I think you can burn anything.

It's free speech.

TANG: Okay, so, spurred on by this commentary, within 24 hours, we are up to ten million views of the Ten Commandments burning in Libertyville.

Let's hop on over to the headquarters of one of the nation's leading cable news networks, GNN, the Global News Network.

(people chuckling) Soledad O'Brien, you are the anchor of GNN's flagship news program.

I'm curious, do you think this is a big story?

- Oh, absolutely.

TANG: Why?

- Well, I think it has, one, all the elements of what makes a story interesting, a lot of sort of the sizzle of a protest, et cetera, et cetera, but also, undergirding it, right, is a very serious issue that is currently being debated.

The Ten Commandments: do they belong on a poster in a wall in the school?

But also, there was a protest, so we have great video to start with, and there's a governor's race two weeks away.

TANG: Wow.

O'BRIEN: Honestly, I think this could make my career, actually.

(laughter) TANG: Stephanie Ruhle, you are the host and star of a competing cable news program, on the Now News Network.

I'm curious if you agree with Soledad, her approach to covering this story.

I understand her approach, and if I didn't live in Libertyville, I would probably feel the same.

TANG: Ah.

- But because I live in Libertyville, I know that it's not a town of enemies.

These are friends and neighbors that go to the grocery store together, and our kids are on sports teams together.

And the unfortunate thing is, we're zooming in on this town and creating this deep, deep divide that I'm not sure actually exists.

So you want to turn the temperature down.

Yes, and I, I would only say this... If, if I was in Soledad's seat, I would feel exactly how she does.

But because I live in this town and I know these people, they're not enemies.

TANG: Miss O'Brien?

Sounds like an amazing person to interview.

(laughter) I think there's so much opportunity.

And every single day, you have a different twist and turn on this story.

I mean, even... Has anybody actually proven that this video is real?

Who could have been the person who burned it?

We do not know.

At the end of the day, we could tell our audience, "We don't really know.

"It hasn't been proven yet, but here are the things that we do know."

The geotags, et cetera, et cetera.

So, there's lots to cover.

I don't think anything would change.

RUHLE: I don't think that the viewers are as one-sided, or as antagonistic... TANG: Mm.

- ...as one would think.

I actually think that the lion's share of people in this country that want to be informed and engaged just want us to shine a light on the truth.

ISAACSON: And I remember, when I worked at another cable news network, this exact same thing happened, and there was that push... TANG: Mm.

- ...to try to jump on controversies, and even inflame our viewers.

TANG: Ann Coulter, I'm wondering if you think that tells us anything about the approaches that GNN and Now News are taking.

COULTER: Yeah, great question.

Although Soledad's program sounds way better than anything on TV now, because we only get one side on TV, and that's why the podcasts are doing so well.

Does that say something, in your view, about who Americans are looking to for information?

Um, I think it's more saying something about-- I mean, I really wish we got both sides.

And also, on the internet, you got infinite competition, so... TANG: Sure.

- ...let the best man win.

TANG: Mr.

Glaude.

Do you have thoughts on this debate?

GLAUDE: What's interesting about the old model of just simply having both sides is that disagreement becomes entertainment.

And when disagreement is entertainment, the idea is not to convince one's fellow that maybe they're mistaken, or maybe, "I didn't get it right."

The idea is just simply to state your position over and against someone else who states their position.

And what it generates is a kind of polarization, where people just state their, stake their positions, draw hard lines, declare their oppositions, their opponents enemies, and not engage in the free flow of ideas that may lead to me changing my mind or that person changing their mind.

DESCOVICH: Don't you think if we put the Ten Commandments up on the wall in the classroom, that would help drive the children to have something to look to, to behave in a way where they can have open dialogue, where they're looking at how to be more civil in a society where students are breaking down right now, our communities are breaking down, our country is breaking down?

What is wrong with the Ten Commandments?

What's, what one of those ten is breaking down society?

SEVERINO: When you took it down and put it in the drawer, you sent a message to those, those kids.

I don't think there's any way around that.

And you took it upon yourself... - Mm-hmm.

...to take one side in that debate.

And that's how we are now in this difficult position.

GLAUDE: My task is to create citizens who are able to think outside of kind of their provincial commitments, and I think learning the, the history of the country in all of its complexity is what I'm charged to do.

SEVERINO: And, and you think you have the right to overrule the school board?

No, I made a choice to risk my livelihood in, in light of my principles.

O'BRIEN: All this is great content, by the way.

This might be more than a two-week story.

(laughter, applause) RUHLE: But we still don't know.

50 million people have watched the video.

The governor's office is on it, probably every group of law enforcement from 16 different states... TANG: Sure.

- ...and still, we do not know who actually did this.

TANG: No eyewitness.

- When it could be a bunch of jughead teenage boys who just decided to be naughty, who don't have a political view in their body.

TANG: Could be.

(Ruhle speaking indistinctly) TANG: But I'll tell you this.

A lot of people have been blamed on social media.

A lot of people are saying, "It's Mr.

Glaude who burned it."

A lot of people are saying, "It's... "Maybe it's high school kids.

Maybe it's another protester," right?

But right now, there is not yet credible evidence saying one individual did it.

Maybe somebody knows-- they haven't come forward yet.

DAVISON: But isn't it... If you look at the online chatter, there's probably so many people who are glad that the Ten Commandments burned.

And so even though we don't know who it is, how can you defend that type of outburst from folks on that side?

Because how do we know where the online chatter is from?

DAVISON: Doesn't matter.

- That online chatter... - Doesn't matter, your, it's people at the coffee, at the coffee table.

- That online chatter could be coming from people who aren't even in the United States who just want to sow chaos here.

Those aren't people whose... DAVISON: Okay, so let's pause.

Maybe it wasn't online.

Let's, could be at the yoga class.

Two people standing next to you said the same thing.

You know them-- they're your friends.

TANG: Okay.

Mr.

Severino, you're up three points.

In the governor's office, you can feel this election slipping away.

Mr.

Wilson, you have an option.

You know that Governor Landrieu is close, personal friends with the president of the United States, a popular firebrand, leader of your party, named Dana Novo.

Would you put out a feeler to the president to see if President Novo would come campaign with Governor Landrieu in this last week?

- I'd sell a kidney.

Come on.

(laughter) LANDRIEU: Absolutely.

- Listen.

TANG: You've already sold one, so... (laughter) WILSON: Three, three points... Three points is a close, it's a tie ballgame, and if we've got a popular president... TANG: Okay.

...who is good friends with... TANG: Yeah.

- ...with Governor Landrieu, you bet we're having the popular president roll in.

I just can't imagine that the president of the United States, who has a very tough reelection coming up, would dive into an argument at a local level about the Ten Commandments.

I'm sorry, but your friend's not going to pick up the phone.

TANG: Governor Landrieu, Rick Wilson.

You're hoping the president comes, we don't know yet.

This is when an aide, a staffer in your campaign, knocks on the door.

The staffer's name is Joy.

And Joy is a little bit of a loose cannon.

She's had an incident or two.

But she is a hard worker and fiercely loyal.

Joy says, "I've got an idea.

I am on a popular dating app."

Let's call it Thrum.

(chuckles) TANG: "One of the matches "who's given me a Thrums up... (laughter) "...happens to be a senior aide to the Severino campaign.

"So here's the idea.

"What if I go on a date "with the senior aide, cell phone camera secretly recording"-- legal in Middlevania.

"We'll have a drink or four.

"If he says something damaging to the campaign, "we'll release it to the press.

"We can still shake up this race.

We can win, Governor."

Good idea?

- No, don't do it.

Don't talk to... - Joy, go, go work yard signs.

Yeah, that... - Joy gets fired.

- That ain't it, that ain't it, Joy.

DAVISON: Why?

Because, it's just, it's not how you do it.

WILSON: It's not, yeah.

- It doesn't make any sense.

It's not honest, it's not fair, and it, it's going to backfire on you.

WILSON: Yeah, it's... - That's just not what we do.

WILSON: Stinks on ice.

Do we finally have some agreement?

That's a terrible idea?

- I think you guys should do it.

Go ahead, we'll try it and see.

(laughter) TANG: Okay-- Joy, you tell her no.

She takes your answer hard.

She wanted to fight back in her loose-cannon kind of way.

And later that afternoon, you find out she's quit the campaign.

48 hours later, a prominent left-leaning political activist group shares a video, and it's all that anybody in the political world can talk about.

It's a man, seated across the table from a camera.

He's identified as a Severino aide, and it's true, you recognize him.

A friend, trusted, loyal, senior aide to your campaign.

There are three empty piña coladas sitting in front of him, umbrellas and all.

And he talks.

He says, "Roger Severino "is a radical Christian who has a plan to convert everyone's children."

This video is going bonkers-viral, just like the Ten Commandments video.

It's been viewed hundreds of thousands time in just 30 minutes.

Governor Landrieu, what's going through your head as you watch this video?

- Well, first of all, it's not his choice.

It's my choice.

- Mm-hmm.

- And what I would do is say, "Disavow that."

Say, "We don't countenance that kind of thing.

"I can't verify whether it's true or not, and that's not how we run campaigns."

- Yeah.

- And that's what's going to happen.

- If it, it... - It's not his choice.

- No.

- No, what I'm saying is... - But my advice to you will be, if we get in bed with that thing... Yeah.

- If he brought it in to me, I would say, "This is really not a discussion."

- Right.

- I was born at night, but I wasn't born last night.

(laughter) TANG: A lot of voters in Middlevania are worried that if they vote for Severino, that he might have a plan to convert their children.

You can feel momentum swinging in favor of your campaign.

Mr.

Wilson, disavow or just step back?

- I think the governor's instincts are very smart about this.

Now, I will say this, just objectively, if that video is going to be out there cooking... (whispering): He's not being honest.

WILSON: ...on algorithmic drivers... TANG: Mm-hmm.

- ...and out there causing this damage, us saying the right thing, which is, "It's not us, we didn't have anything to do with it.

"We don't, we don't, we don't countenance it.

We're not touching it," the governor's instincts are correct on this.

If it's out there doing what it's doing, we can't stop that, and we could continue to hold the governor's image where it is, where it's been, as a leader who's going to put the right thing ahead of the easy thing.

O'BRIEN: I have never had a campaign do that in my entire life.

TANG: Really?

- Ever-- that never, I will, I would call you back.

WILSON: If it's cooking, if it's cooking, we can't stop it from cooking.

And I think you would be, like... (nonchalantly): "We can't stop it from cooking."

(laughter) He would have the people who work for him absolutely out there selling it, pitching it, talking about it.

Because this is politics, at the end of the day.

And I would be flooded with phone calls from people who want to make sure I have a clean copy of that video.

TANG: So, Governor Landrieu, you've issued your press statement on your website disavowing.

It's downloaded 75 times.

(laughter) Meanwhile, it's just as Mr.

Wilson has predicted.

This video is, as they say... WILSON: Cooking.

TANG: ...cooking.

Soledad O'Brien.

You get a phone call.

It is from the senior aide to the Roger Severino campaign.

The senior aide?

TANG: The senior aide.

- In the video.

TANG: He's now known, by the way, all over the internet, as Piña Colada Guy.

(laughter) And he wants to do an interview, to clear the air, to explain what he says actually happened on this date.

- Absolutely.

When can we book him?

Fantastic.

Did we fire him?

Is that why he's doing it?

TANG: You'll want... SEVERINO: Or was it a deepfake?

That's what I want to know.

TANG: Ah, good question.

So, we're about to find out, in his interview.

You haven't fired him yet-- see how he does.

Because I definitely wouldn't let him do that.

(laughing): I definitely wouldn't... - Well, I mean, let's get to, let's get to the main point.

He volunteered-- I'm just saying yes.

He's welcome to come into the studio, and I'm happy to have him.

What's so outlandish about this is that it contradicts everything I stand for.

I think it's a slander on my Christian faith to say that I would somehow enforce it with government authority to force conversion of children.

That, that is so outrageous that now I have to spend time addressing this ridiculous claim from somebody who may be associated with my opponent's campaign, and sure, a disavowal, I, I appreciate that, but there are some real questions to be asked here, because it is so ridiculous that now I'm being distracted by this low blow.

O'BRIEN: And you're welcome to... And I think that's a great point.

And when I interview you-- and again, how many days before the election?

Three?

Four?

TANG: It's five days before the election.

We're going to get you supporters who are of different faiths to come on the show.

O'BRIEN: You don't have to get me anything.

- And they're gonna come on, they're gonna come on the... - You don't have to get me anything, I'll get them myself-- I mean, Libertyville sounds like it has 428 people, so... (laughter) I will go and find people-- again, I'm curious what people in Libertyville actually think of this, and I'm not going to take a campaign's sense of it as the, the truth, so... TANG: All right, you mentioned hard questions.

That's fair-- you want to know.

Soledad, you get to ask some hard questions.

What would you ask in your exclusive interview... Oh, to Piña Colada Man?

TANG: ... with Piña Colada Guy?

- So, first of all, "Who were you having drinks with?

Is this video accurate?"

Number one.

"Is this actually a video "of you having drinks with someone?

"Who was the person?

"Did you know that that person was recording you?

"What was the topic of your discussion?

Why would you want to say this about your boss?"

Is this how the interviews usually go?

O'BRIEN: Yes.

(laughter) Generally.

SEVERINO: "Was there anything in the drink?"

(laughter) TANG: Here's what he says-- he says, "First of all, it's true.

"I was on Thrum, I'm a Thrummer.

(laughter) "And I matched with a woman named Octavia.

"That is me at that restaurant.

"Octavia told me that she was a Severino supporter.

"And then I said, 'Those crazy Landrieu voters, "'the people burning the Ten Commandments, "'they think Roger Severino is a radical Christian "who has a plan to convert everyone's children.'

"I think you know what happened.

"They manipulated the video.

"Octavia cut it, just showed the second half, "which is not true, not what I meant.

That's what happened."

Would you run this interview on TV, with what Mr.

Severino's aide just said?

- We're now four days out from the governor's... Absolutely, I would.

Absolutely, and again, I don't think they're... I, I think audiences are very smart.

You can tell them, "We have not been able to confirm "the identity of this person.

It is..." I don't know if someone's looked at the videotape and said, "Hey, it actually..." "Since it begins here, it is unclear if what he's saying is true or not."

I have no problem telling people that.

TANG: All right, now it's your turn.

Your aide has acquitted himself well.

First of all, do you believe him?

Well, he says the video was edited.

I want to see the video.

Would you run the video if it's edited?

O'BRIEN: "Piña Colada Guy says he was there at the dinner, "but says the video's been edited.

"Join me tonight as I sit down "for an exclusive interview with Mr.

Piña Colada and asking him what really happened that night."

TANG: Would you watch that, Ann Coulter?

Uh, I am totally in favor of hidden videos.

It has never hurt the right-wing party.

It has always hurt the left-wing party.

I've been quoted on hot mics on, when I thought it was off the record, and the only difference in what I say publicly is, the F-word was used a lot more privately.

And if the truth were something else, no, you'd never hear about that on, on TV.

You would have to go to the internet and you'd see his aide being interviewed.

And believe him or not, I suspect he would look very credible.

O'BRIEN: Yeah, I'm going to disagree with that.

Four days in front of a governor's race, and you've had this big issue, which has gotten national, global attention, yeah, you would.

You would, you absolutely would, especially if it's going viral on the internet.

Networks actually love things that are going viral on the internet, because they believe they can ride off that wake and actually get some of that audience, so it absolutely would.

TANG: Walter Isaacson, you are in Libertyville for your next book project, which let me tell you, is a doozy.

You are close, personal friends with Governor Mitch Landrieu.

You're also close, personal friends with candidate Roger Severino.

And the two of them have agreed to give you access to their campaigns.

How are you feeling about that book?

ISAACSON: Well, the book is getting good.

(laughter) But the key point here is, there are two types now in the media and in politics: those who look at a situation like this and want to exploit it and pour kerosene on it, and those who want to bring us together.

We've had many years of the pouring-kerosene types.

I think there's a time, both the media and politicians are going to realize, "Well, maybe we want something calmer that will help unite us."

TANG: Let's fast-forward a bit.

It is now the day before the election.

6:00 p.m.

and the polls are a dead heat.

Tina Descovich, you are sitting in your office when your son, the same senior who was at the protest, observing with you, knocks on your door, and you can tell he looks troubled, heavy heart.

He says, "Mom, you know the video "of the Ten Commandments burning in Town Square?

(sighs): "It wasn't the protesters who burned it.

"It was me and my friends.

(sighs): "I'm so sorry, Mom.

"It's just, you know my friend Jimmy.

"Jimmy-- the, the protesters were being so obnoxious.

"They were punching, "they were pushing, they were yelling.

"And Jimmy says, "'These people are so un-Christian.

"'What if we burn the Ten Commandments, "put it on social media, blame the other side?'

"The whole world would see why, Mom, "we need the Ten Commandments in our schools.

- (sighs) TANG: "Mom, I'm so sorry.

What should we do?"

(laughter) MAN: Poor Mom.

TANG: This is a parent's nightmare!

It is a parent's nightmare, and you've got national politics involved, state politics involved.

You've got your community divided over it.

And I've got, what, 12 hours to clean it up?

When, what... It's the day before the... - It's 6:00 p.m.

the day before voters vote.

DESCOVICH: Yeah.

I've got to clean it up by, by the time the polls open in the morning.

TANG: So talk to your son.

What are you going to say to him in this moment after he comes clean with this confession?

I'm going to tell him, "You've made a terrible mistake here, "but you have to be accountable for your actions.

"And you know, as your mom, that I, I believe in that, "and so as a family, we're going to stand.

"I'm going to stand by you and we're going to do this, "but there's going to be consequences that I can't even "help you with and control.

"But I'm going to love you and care for you and protect you the best that I can."

TANG: Your sister also lives in Middlevania.

She's your son's favorite aunt, it's Aunt Kristin.

(laughter) Would you have a conversation with Aunt Kristin?

- Yeah, she's the expert.

She's very well experienced in managing all kinds of crisis comms, and I would say we are in a bad crisis communication situation.

DAVISON: I know my sister.

I'm not going to convince her to change her mind.

She's going to do the right thing and she's going to force her son to do this, so I'm not even going to try, I'm not even going to try to... TANG: Can I just ask, though?

Does it enter your mind, your own stakes in this?

How bad is it going to be for you, the campaign, if it comes out that the campaign manager's nephew is the one who burned the Ten Commandments, not protesters?

So I would probably think of how we could turn this into an opportunity.

There are ways we can do that, and so... So you would tell your candidate that the thing that is energizing his base, the reason voters are putting money in his war chest... - No... TANG: ...the belief that the Ten Commandments were burned by protesters, that that's false.

- No, that's not what I would say.

So, with your permission, my, my two options to you is, let me go to, let me go to Roger.

Let's talk through... Maybe we get the, also, outreach to the teacher and your son, and let's do a joint press conference.

And say, "The agonizing choices "that our students make, "that they don't even feel comfortable enough "to bring their beliefs to, in the classroom, "that they need to go do a stunt like this.

"Yes, it was wrong, but we're coming together now.

"And we're going to be the unity candidate.

We're going to bring people together."

TANG: Does that sound like a good approach to you, candidate Severino?

- This is a mess, I mean, I've denounced 99 false flags from the left, and now we get one, the very first one, that's associated on our side right before the, the election.

Um, so to be consistent, we have to denounce it, right?

If the facts are coming in that somebody who was, you know, associated with our side did this absurdly ridiculous thing and burned the Ten Commandments on their own, which is, I mean, if they're Christian, that's sacrilege.

Why would they do such a thing?

Um, but we do got to get back to the, the central issue.

What started all of this?

A teacher took it upon himself to go above the law, which was duly passed by the school board, to create the division, right?

Go back to that.

We wouldn't be in this mess at all if we actually united as one nation under God, which our children pledge allegiance to.

Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

SEVERINO: Yes, and it's... - Don't forget that part.

SEVERINO: And the Ten Commandments are part of that history, part of our story.

TANG: Can I give Mr.

Glaude a chance to respond?

Because you've offered a press conference where you can stand together.

Mr.

Glaude might surprise us.

- Not at a press conference, no.

Because they haven't said a word about what I've experienced since I, since I put the Ten Commandments in the drawer.

They haven't said a word about all of the digital brownshirts who've threatened me and my family, they haven't said a word about all the consequences that have followed.

Okay, so that option's off the table.

What about this idea of a press conference with other students tomorrow, where your son would accept responsibility, explain his actions?

- I feel like you're now using my son, sister, as a political pawn to get your client elected.

- He's going to have to tell someone.

DESCOVICH: Even if he's my chosen candidate, it feels gross.

You know, I'm in a quandary here, because you just... O'BRIEN: Have him talk to me.

(laughter) DAVISON: But if he goes on primetime TV and has to, you know, confess, just, just him, all alone, then he will be the, the kid that burned the Ten Commandments forever.

DESCOVICH: The best thing for my son would be to repair the relationship with the teacher and go and do a press conference with him, and not either of the political candidates.

TANG: Wow, what an idea!

Well, and he, in, in my opinion, probably doesn't know everything you've experienced.

TANG: Yes.

- He's, he's in his own mind.

He's 17, he's, like, "I did this, it's all over the news, I've been caught," you know, he's just in panic mode.

He doesn't even realize what it's done to you.

And that has to be explained to him first.

TANG: Sure.

RUHLE: And he could have hidden.

Because this 17-year-old boy, young man, came forward and apologized, it's not just the teacher's opportunity-- and he doesn't have to-- but it's the community and the country's opportunity to show forgiveness.

Because if this is rooted in Christianity or decency, forgiveness is what we're missing most.

And grace.

TANG: Decision time.

Will you reach out to Mr.

Glaude and see if he and your son could do this conversation tomorrow?

- It would be hard, because I probably have already threatened to fire him, or the school board has, but I absolutely would reach out.

- I would take, I would take the call.

TANG: It's now 8:00 p.m.

the night before the election.

Here's who knows the truth that a bunch of high school kids burned the Ten Commandments, not protesters: Tina Descovich, your son, Eddie Glaude, Kristin Davison, and Roger Severino.

That's it.

Many of the voters in Middlevania believe that it was left-wing protesters who burned the Ten Commandments.

Both candidates have one last big event to make your case to your voters.

The election is razor-thin.

Polls tied.

This could swing the election.

Mr.

Severino, you step on stage at your rally, 8:00 p.m., and the vibe is electric.

Sellout crowd, voters on their feet chanting.

You're greeting your supporters behind you on stage before you speak.

And you notice that your mic is hot.

And that's when it happens.

One of your supporters, a nice grandmother, shakes your hand and says, "Mr.

Severino, "isn't it true that it was Governor Landrieu's thugs "who burned the Ten Commandments?

I heard he paid people to do it."

And the audience erupts, cheers in support of this latest conspiracy theory that's circulating on social media.

What is your instinct telling you the best answer you could give right now?

There's the political answer and the right answer.

The political answer would be to deflect and let sleeping dogs lie.

TANG: Can you give me an example?

SEVERINO: Well, you'd say, "Look, "there's been a whole lot of information out there.

"I can neither confirm nor deny that it was one of the thugs, "but, you know, we have heard "about this other video that was a sting operation against my aide."

And, you know, "There's, there's more to be said about that."

You can leave an impression one way or the other, and not a lie.

There's nothing in there that was actually a lie.

But it is quite the gut check.

How much does the election matter versus your principles?

Uh... TANG: And the other side, there is a political operative lying about your aide and Piña Colada Guy... - Oh, yeah.

There was a temptation to get even.

That, that is for sure.

TANG: Let's get you some help here.

(laughter) I'm curious, Ann Coulter.

(laughter) I got to know.

- Okay, the reason these people are flailing around is, as I say, 100% of hoax hate crimes are committed by the party of the left.

And having observed them, what you're supposed to say is, "Yes, it was a hoax, but it was to bring attention "to the problem of anti-religionism.

So you have to forgive them."

TANG: Okay, that's one option.

You have another lifeline, because, Kristin Davison, your candidate's wearing an earpiece.

What should he say to win this race?

DAVISON: The political answer is the right answer here.

You just say, "You know what?

"No one ever, no one ever proved who that was.

"But tonight, we are here to get ready for a big win tomorrow.

"So I need you to go out there, I need you to get your ten... "You go get ten voters for the Ten Commandments and let's go win this tomorrow."

And that's all you got to say.

TANG: Decision time.

Mr.

Severino, the crowd goes quiet.

What do you say to this woman?

I would say, "Because I believe "in the Ten Commandments, what they stand for, "and you cannot bear false witness, "we have reason to believe it was somebody on our side.

"And if it were actually the case, "then I'd denounce it, uh, regardless of who did it."

So it's one of those gut check moments.

Do you actually believe in the principles of the Ten Commandments or not?

Can I just tweak that a little bit for you?

(laughter) TANG: It's too late!

DAVISON: No, just, like, a tiny little bit.

You can just say, "You know what?

"Whether it was someone on their side or our side, I denounce it."

You don't-- they didn't ask if you knew who it was.

Much more likely to be said.

DAVISON: They didn't ask you... - Okay, let's rewind.

That was your nugget, let's say it.

Well, it's certainly... There is... It is so much more complicated than that.

(laughter) TANG: Mr.

Severino.

The crowd goes silent.

- We should have done more media training.

God-- for real.

- Call me.

TANG: The crowd goes silent-- everybody's waiting for you to answer... SEVERINO: Mm-hmm.

- ...this woman.

What do you say?

Whoever did it did a horrendous thing that has divided our community.

They should be held responsible.

And I stand for the principles that were burned, regardless of who it was, in those Ten Commandments.

And so we denounce those who do it, who burn it, we denounce those who take it away from our children and impose their own values, and we respect the wisdom of our founders that allowed us to be able to be great as a nation because of our religious history and principles.

TANG: The crowd erupts, cheers, people on their feet.

This is why they support you.

They agree with everything you said, and the rally is a wild success.

But I do have to ask.

Does it feel like you made an ethical decision?

You sidestepped.

Is that really different than lying?

To withhold the truth?

- That's the difficulty.

It's... It's such a close call.

(chuckles) Because, on the one hand, you have-- look, it's not... It wasn't a lie to say, "Whoever did it, regardless..." That's 100% true.

TANG: Governor Landrieu, Rick Wilson.

You are about to go on stage at your rally, 9:00 p.m., when your cell phones buzz, both of them, same time.

You look down.

It's a text message from Joy.

Joy says, "I'm sorry, Governor, Mr.

Wilson, I had to come clean."

Joy is your former staffer.

(laughter) - I knew this was coming.

(laughter) TANG: Your former staffer says, "I had to come clean.

"I know you told me not to do it.

"I quit, I went, I did it anyways.

"I covered my tracks.

"But I have to tell you something else.

"It's exactly as the Piña Colada Guy said "on 'The Soledad O'Brien Show.'

"I cut the video, I manipulated it to make the aide say "something about candidate Severino that's not true.

"The aide never said that he was going to convert everyone's children."

What are you going to do with this inconvenient information?

You know, I think this campaign has now become something that was a created social media frenzy, built on a lie from the very beginning.

We are at the closing moments of this campaign.

We're not on a hot mic.

My, my guy is an honest man who is a straightforward guy.

I believe the governor can win by going out, being straightforward about the campaign.

And by the way, I'm not sure Joy is legitimately all there anyway, so... Not crazy, but a loose cannon.

But a loose cannon, I think, yes, I... So, I'm going to counsel the governor, "Let's settle the Joy matter at another moment."

TANG: Okay.

LANDRIEU: I don't believe I have a moral dilemma about the young lady, because we fired her, she left, we disavowed it, and we didn't really have to address the issue.

TANG: Okay-- the phone rings.

You look down.

It is not the number you expected.

It's the president of the United States.

"Governor, good news.

"I'm going to do you a solid.

"I'm close-- I'm in a helicopter "30 minutes away from Middlevania.

"I'm going to come.

"We'll show up together at your rally.

"I'll talk.

"Oh, one more thing.

(laughter) "I've read the internals.

"I know that the one thing that's going to drive your base, "our voters, is... "...the video, the secretly recorded video, "Piña Colada Guy-- our voters love it.

"The memes are hilarious.

"They don't want a person to convert their children.

"That's why they're going to vote for you.

That's the plan-- we're going to go all in on this video."

- Yeah, that's a no.

You just say no?

Hang up?

LANDRIEU: Yeah.

That's my, that's my decision... WILSON: "No, Mr.

President, "we, respectfully, we believe we've had "a really good six or seven days in this campaign since the, since the Piña Colada Guy emerged."

TANG: That's a no.

- For me it is.

TANG: And just like that, you hear the chopper turn around.

(laughter) Walter Isaacson, what a night for Middlevania.

- (chuckles) TANG: What a night for your book.

- What a night for history.

TANG: What a night for history.

Whose job do you think it is to tell the truth to voters?

The candidates' job?

Journalists?

Social media influencers and podcasters?

The truth is always going to come out, and so the job is to tell the truth.

And as a writer of a book about this, I was behind the scenes, and I knew that the candidate had thought about saying, "Let me get the truth out right away."

Then he stepped back a bit.

And I think as we write the story, that would've been the heroic response, and it actually may have been the best political response.

Likewise, if I'm writing the history of it, I'd say, "One of the heroes is a 17-year-old kid who went to his mom at the end."

And if that came out and if he said it, he said it with his teacher, Mr.

Glaude, he would be the hero of this book.

TANG: Mm, so it sounds like you're saying the truth will come out.

ISAACSON: It will.

- Are you saying it's everybody's job?

Candidates?

Podcasters?

ISAACSON: You're gonna get a lot of blowback when the truth comes out, and you are the one who either bore false witness or didn't help get the truth out.

- But what if you were brave enough to be boring, right?

Government doesn't have to be TMZ.

It doesn't have to be wild and exciting.

It, what the government needs to do is to create a framework so people can live safe, good lives.

TANG: Okay, folks, let's move ahead to Election Day.

And let's go back to where this all started, to a civics classroom in Libertyville High School.

One of your students raises her hand, back of the room, and she says, "Mr.

Glaude, "I still don't know who to vote for.

"It's my first election.

"I know I trust you.

"Will you tell me who I should vote for?

Who are you voting for?"

- No, no.

- Don't do it, don't do it.

Don't do it.

(laughter) I've already got... You know what I'm in, my situation is right now.

(laughter) I'm going to get ready.

No, I, what I think we need to do, what I would do in that moment, honestly, is to say, "Let's avoid all the noise "and get clear on your values.

"Who, who do you take yourself to be?

"What kind of country do you want?

"And if you're not clear about it, "work on getting clear about it.

"But don't fall for the glitz and glamour "of the politicians and their communications folks, right?

But really think carefully about what you value."

TANG: Miss Descovich, you've heard his answer.

What do you think about it?

- I have a lot of respect for him as a teacher.

I think he even, I think I whispered in a few minutes ago off-mic that, "Yeah, I think you'd be a great teacher."

(laughter) Like, I think he's, I think he's good at it.

You know, but as a school board member, I hate to come back to, he's violating the policy we passed, and so my hands are almost tied in what we can do with him.

And maybe there's a reprimand, maybe there's an agreement.

We've got to look forward and find common ground.

TANG: The returns are in.

And ladies and gentlemen, we have a new governor of the state of Middlevania.

Congratulations, Governor Severino.

- Thank you very much.

Yay!

(applause) How does it feel winning in this way?

Well, Walter, I feel quite convicted by what you said, because you said the heroes are the ones who act with that integrity, even if people aren't going to ultimately find out one way or the other.

I think that was your message.

So I actually don't feel very good at all.

Uh, you want to win right.

You don't want to win with ever compromising anything of your integrity, and the fact that this was based on the Ten Commandments issue... I think I would've done it differently, uh, because of what you said.

You have, you have to take the, the long view... 'Cause you said of a, of a biography, when you look back on a person's life, and what my kids would think of what I've done.

Winning an election is just not worth that.

So thank you for raising that with me.

(applause) TANG: Governor Landrieu, I'm sorry, I... Former Governor Landrieu.

(laughter) You've heard your opponent express some remorse, even though he's won.

How do you feel even though you've lost this campaign?

- I feel fine.

I mean, I've, it's actually happened to me twice before.

For the record, I've won nine races.

(laughter) I've, I've lost two.

TANG: One final question.

In this new age of information, when disinformation, misinformation, can spread at the speed of light, what can we do better as a people to stand up for the truth?

It doesn't matter what the algorithm is feeding us.

We can choose what we want to consume.

And if we actually demand that the temperature be lowered and the volume be lowered, and we just shine a light, perhaps that gets us to a much better place than where we are.

Because I do think it goes back to the 17-year-old, who's almost the original victim, who would, who would act in that way because of the chaos that we have fed him.

There's too much information coming in without folks actually taking the time, putting it away, and, and letting it reverberate.

And reacting too quickly and letting things escalate.

We have really got to figure out a way to slow things down, think about them, question everything, and be more open-minded, and I would say open-hearted, to people that don't think like us.

It's part of being a pluralistic society.

It's part of making sure that everybody has room to speak, everybody has room to talk, everybody feels like they had their say, and negotiating these things out so it's not a zero-sum game.

COULTER: Can I defend social media?

The dinosaur media has been able to push a lot of lies on us, and social media, because of the competition, it's infinite voices.

It is infinite voices, and that's why I think we are getting a lot more truth today.

RUHLE: But it's not anti-social media.

It's anti-an angry mob.

Social media is incredible that it democratizes this, and that, that so many people can have a voice.

But, but moving in an angry mob that's nameless and faceless is something very different from that.

I'm not against social media.

I mean, social media quells that, because people can talk on social media.

They can get the truth.

Angry mobs are driven by ignorance most of the time.

RUHLE: If we know who those people are.

Do we know what their names are, their faces are, what their standards are?

ISAACSON: Benjamin Franklin said that a lie can make it halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.

That's particularly true in the digital age.

It goes faster.

But in the end, the truth comes out and people are held accountable for those things.

DESCOVICH: The truth is the truth.

It doesn't change.

It's unchanging.

The problem we have in America right now is, we have a segment of society that has wiped that out.

There is no truth.

But if, as Americans, we can't agree on basic simple truths that we have agreed on for 249 years, I don't know how we move forward together.

WILSON: I think we have to understand that in some ways, human cognition is not tuned to the power of the social media algorithm that controls so much more of our lives than it ever has.

I think if we don't face up to that, we're going to continue to have the fights over, over objective truth.

We're going to continue to have fights over who gets to speak in the public square and, and what are the boundaries of acceptable speech and behavior.

DAVISON: We can't look to our opponents and think, "How could they think that?

They're Neanderthals for thinking that."

You know, belittle their beliefs.

We would all do a little bit good to reach over and actually try to understand where they're coming from.

Why were they protesting, you know, on either side?

What's at the heart of it?

GLAUDE: If we can't engage in that deliberation that is at the heart of self-governance, because we really don't know if we actually have the information we need because of misinformation, because we've, disagreement has calcified, because our hatreds and grievances overrun reason, then we're going to be lost.

Democracy can't work.

And so if, as long as we are enemies looking at each other, as opposed to fellows trying to live a life together, as long as we lie to each other about the past that shapes how we see the world and how we see each other, and as long as we take advantage and inflame our differences, right, we can never make real the promise of America.

TANG: With that, we bid farewell to Middlevania until the next time.

(applause) ANNOUNCER: Funding for this program was provided in part by a grant from Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and by a grant from Anne Ray Foundation, a Margaret A. Cargill Philanthropy.

And by contributions from viewers like you.

Thank you.

Location furnished by The New York Historical.

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