[gentle guitar music] [gentle guitar music] - Welcome to "The Songwriters," I'm Ken Paulson.

Our special guest today is Brett James.

A man whose music spans at least 20 years of hit songs, and whose music you hear everyday on the radio.

Brett James, good to see you.

- Great to be here Ken.

Thanks for having me.

- You know I, I do have the privilege of interviewing other members of the Songwriters Hall of Fame, Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame, and many of them have decades, literally decades, going back to the 50s and 60s of their hits.

And they haven't had a hit in a, in a long, in a long while, and they recognize that's a cycle.

-Sure.

-Um, for somebody like yourself who has had hits in both country and the pop field, and to stay contemporary, I'm just curious, is that hard?

[chuckles] A-As you, as all of us age?

- Sure.

- And young tastes evolve, how do you keep the edge?

- You know, that the secret for me in, in Nashville, as you know, a lot of the time, we are collaborating- most of the time we're collaborating, um- I- I always say there's two ways to kind of grow old as a songwriter.

And one, one way is to sit with a, a young 18 year old or 19 year old, and think you know everything, 'cause you're in the Songwriters Hall of Fame, and teach them how, you're gonna teach them how to write a song.

And the other is to listen, and the other is to learn.

And um, what I'm trying to do every day now, is to soak up the brilliance of the, the young kids that I am fortunate enough to work with, and then, just kind of, sprinkle in whatever experience, and knowledge that I have.

And, I think, for me anyway, that's, that hopefully is, is, is one of the, you know, a little secret to longevity, maybe.

- Are the rules different?

- Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's definitely changed.

The, the game has changed since I was doing it, you know, a long time ago.

And, um, you have to kind of, you have to learn to kind of go with the flow, ebb a little bit.

And you can't get stuck in, "Oh, this is the right way to do it.

"That's the wrong way to do it.

"This is the way they're doing it now, "It's just not what we did."

Well, that's fine because, you know, music evolves just like, ah, everything else.

- So, we sit here to celebrate that you are an enormously successful songwriter in the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame, but we have to be honest here, when you made that move, the world lost a doctor.

[laughs] - The world lost, apparently, a terrible doctor [laughs] because I gave, I gave it my best shot, yeah.

- Oh.

I, I love your early history of vacillating between medicine and popular music.

And I particularly love the way it worked out.

Uh, uh, those had to be, like, difficult years for you.

- It was, it was challenging, yeah.

The, the, you know, the quick story is that, I did a couple years of med school, and got offered a record deal in Nashville.

I come to Nashville, fail miserably as a recording artist for about seven years, and go back to Med school.

And, I think, that's what I'm going to end up doing.

And then when I, when I did, my songwriting took off, um- And it was, it was challenging, you know, it was, uh, you know, a lot of failure, you know.

I- I- there was a time in the 90s where I was embarrassed to walk into my publishing company, you know, um, you know, I- I just couldn't get anything working, and, and I'd lost a record deal.

I'm kind of, um, I'm kinda like, "Ah, This is just- "this is not cool."

you know?

And then, I'd had a couple kids, and I got to feed those kids, and that's what- [laughs] You know, at some point you've got your, your big dream of being a, a, a, a big superstar, a big, whatever, songwriter, and then at some point, you look at your babies and go, "I got to feed these kids.

"It doesn't matter how."

And, and, you know, and that's all that mattered to me at that point.

And so, that's why I ended up- and all I'd ever done-- I'd never had a real job.

[chuckles].

All I ever do is go to school, and and write songs.

And so, my options were pretty limited.

And so, fortunately, I was lucky enough to get back into med school, but when I did and went back the second time, ah, for some reason, my songwriting career took off while I was going to pathology class every day, you know.

- I have to believe that when you left the second time they said, "Please don't come back."

- They did.

Yes.

[laughs] So, it was an interesting conversation with Dean Hall was her name, and she had, uh, like I said, I'd been out 7 years- You're only supposed to get one year off.

And so, uh, you know, back then I snail mailed her a real handwritten letter, "Hey, I've been out for this long- [tongue clicks] "Is there any chance I can get back in?"

And she hit me back she said, "Okay, you had good grades- [tongue clicks] "um, and, I will pull some strings, "and get you back after being out for seven years, "ah, but you're going to have to repeat your sophomore year, you know, because things have changed in seven years, you need to get, you know, back up to speed."

And I was fine with that.

And so, she, kind of, pulls these strings, and then I come back.

And, and that particular nine months when I went back to med school, that's really when my song writing stuff took off, and I had 33 cuts, and I had five top 10s that year.

- [laughs] You know, like I said, "Well, I'd been sitting in the med school library every day, and it was just crazy times for me.

And so, at the end of that year, I, I made a, a sheet of paper with all of those, you know, titles on there for her.

And, because I wanted to be prepared, you know?

I'd already- I just finished exams again.

I took exams but I knew I was going to quit.

And so, I walk in and I said, "Look, I know, you pulled some strings, "but here's what's going on with my music career."

And she was very gracious.

She did- she looked up.

She knew some of the songs.

I had no idea she was a country music fan, but she knew some of the songs, which was very helpful.

And she said, "Oh, you have to go do this.

"This is amazing.

This is the greatest thing."

And then she just stopped for a second and she said, "But, you can't ever come back."

- [laughs] - And I was like, "Yeah, you're right."

- Well, that was reasonable.

- Fair enough, fair enough.

- Uh, and, and earlier, you intended to be an artist?

- I did.

Yeah, um- it took- The long story is that I, I came out to Nashville on spring break in my sophomore year with a cassette tape of some little demos I done in Oklahoma City.

Thinking, you know, "Let's see what happens."

I had one friend who was an intern in the music business here in Nashville.

- So, you were in?

- So, I was totally in, yeah.

Deb Markland, uh, got me into the music business.

And, uh, but she, you know, she had another friend, who had another friend, and that- the big boss wanted to be my manager.

And so, I came out on my spring break on my sophomore year, you know, because that was when I could get off school.

And my third day in Nashville- we met with a couple of record labels that we had, ah, meetings with.

And we'll plan on, you know- and they kind of patted me on the head, and sent me on my way.

And then, uh, we had a surprise meeting just pop up with a guy named Tim DuBois, who was running Arista Records at that time, a legend in our business.

And, ah, he looked at me across the table after hearing some music, and talking to me, and he's a fellow Oklahoman as well, which was helpful.

I think I got extra points for that, but he looked across the table and said, "Mister, you move here, I'll give you a record deal."

[laughs] Just like that, I've been in Nashville for three days, you know, and, and- so, I had to make some choices and, uh- - Were you a rocker or country?

- I was country, I was a hat act, I had the Wranglers on.

- Oh, a hat act.

- Yeah, this is, is- this is 1992, so- - You had to be good.

I'm, I'm sure you're humble and say,"No" but you had to be good or DuBois would never have signed you.

- I have no idea if I was any good or not.

I was, I was very much learning, you know, and uh- but he believed in me, and, uh, we made, we made a record for Arista, and uh, made another one later that never came out.

But uh, once again, like I said, I pretty much failed miserably as a recording artist, but learned a lot along the way.

- So, so, it's really surprising about your life experience there, is it- it is over, you are done.

You're going to be a doctor.

What's going on in the background?

Somebody's pitching your songs, right?

- Yeah.

I mean, that's kind of one- it was great, kind of, the way Nashville works, um.

Just as I was going back to med school and giving up, you know, all my dreams, losing my record deal, I had my publishing deal cut by two-thirds, you know, and just as I decide to do that, uh, I start writing with a, a young friend named, Troy Burgess.

Troy was 23 years old probably, and I was about 30.

And what we started doing together as a team started, kind of working a little bit.

You know, none of us had had any of our songs recorded, but we're starting get interest.

A lot of holds, a lot of, "Hey, this is great."

And so, as I'm, you know, kind of planning to go back to school in Oklahoma, I had to, you know, have a talk with Troy.

I said, "Man, I know we kind of have some cool stuff going on "but I'm going to go back to medical school in Oklahoma.

"I got kids to feed."

And he was like, "Well," he literally, kind of, said, "Well, I'll just, I'll just, kind of, go with you."

And so, I, I literally couldn't sell my house in Nashville.

Wife and kids stayed here.

I moved back in with my parents in Oklahoma until my house sold.

And Troy would come out a week a month, and stay at my parents house with me, and I'd go to med school all day, and he had insomnia, so he couldn't sleep.

He'd wake up at, 1:00 and we'd write seven or eight songs in a week, and then, we'd pick a weekend, I'd fly in, and we'd demo them all, I'd sing 'em all, and that's how it started working.

And so, Troy was, was very much a big, ah, savior to my career.

And that was 1990- Wow, actually, that was, I guess, 19- 2000.

And Troy ended up being, being my songwriter of the year that year, based on those songs we wrote at my parents house.

- Wow.

Extraordinary.

- Yeah.

So, then there's a seismic event in your career, which is called, "Jesus Take The Wheel."

[laughs] - That was a good one for sure.

Yeah.

- Where'd that come from?

- You know, ah, working with dear friends, you know, working with people you trust, and love, and are, and are amazingly talented.

And I always, you know, say about that song was a very, very typical songwriting day in Nashville.

You know, a lot of people who don't- And, you know, I've written lots, and lots of songs by myself over the years but, you know, the typical songwriting day in Nashville as you know, is we collaborate.

And so, you know, you're in an office, you're in someone's studio, you're somewhere with one or two other songwriters, and this was "Jesus Take the Wheel" was a very typical day.

You know, we, we, as songwriters do, we show up for work at the crack of 11- you know, we're early risers.

- [laughs] - Show up at the crack 11, and drink coffee for an hour, and talk about life, and relationships, and kids, and, you know, whatever, whatever's going on.

And this particular day, I was with two of my dearest friends, Hillary Lindsay and Gordie Sampson.

And, ah, you know, we did all that.

We drank coffee, and spent an hour, you know, catching up, and finally, it was time to sit down and, and write a song.

And, you know, as songwriters do this is like pre- now we keep everything on our phone, you know, kind of, but we always keep, keep lists of titles and whatnot.

And Gordie was going through his list of titles, and just kind of shooting stuff out.

He said, I got this title called, "When Jesus Takes the Wheel."

I don't know what to do with.

And my initial response was to laugh.

I thought- well this- - [laughs] You know, we got Jesus in a robe, he's driving- what does Jesus drive?

He drives a Toyota, with, ah, you know.

And, ah, so we actually kind of passed on it.

We thought, "Well, let's go on to something else."

And we went through four or five other ideas, and, I guess we were stuck because, ah, fortunately, we came back to, ah, that little idea.

And we wrote a song about that little girl driving, driving to Cincinnati on a snow white Christmas Eve.

And, um, you know, it ended up being a special one because I always say that in order to get a special one like that, and they're- they happen, you know, relatively regularly, but it, it takes just the perfect artist, with the perfect song, at just the perfect time.

And, ah, ah, and of course, we had written that before Carrie Underwood had wri- had won American Idol.

And then she wins American Idol.

And it just ends up being, kind of, the, the right singer, at the right time, for the right song.

- I gather she cut it after she won?

- She did, yeah.

- Yeah, - I-I'm not sure this is a fair question, but I'm, I'm curious, you got an idea that was dead in the water, we don't want any part of this, and then you go explore several other ideas, and they don't work, and then, there's got to be something that happens with that lame title, like the bridge to it becoming a multi-million seller song.

Is it somebody breaking the ice with one more line, or, or looking at it differently?

- I think what happened with that title, "When Jesus Takes The Wheel" was we switched it to, "Jesus Take the Wheel" which is a very different statement.

You know, one's third person, and one is first person.

And, and so, I think we personalize it to that little girl, and um, I don't remember how that kind of magically happened, but I'm glad it did.

- Yeah, could we hear this classic song?

- Absolutely.

[gentle guitar] ♪ She was driving last Friday on her way to Cincinnati ♪ ♪ On a snow-white Christmas Eve ♪ ♪ Going home to see her mama, and her daddy ♪ ♪ With a baby in the backseat ♪ ♪ 50 miles to go and she was running low ♪ ♪ On faith and gasoline ♪ ♪ It been a long hard year ♪ ♪ She had a lot on her mind, and she didn't pay attention ♪ ♪ She was going way too fast ♪ ♪ Before she knew it she was spinnin' ♪ ♪ On a thin black sheet of glass ♪ ♪ She saw both their lives flash before her eyes ♪ ♪ She didn't even have time to cry ♪ ♪ She was so scared ♪ ♪ She threw her hands up in the air ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ Jesus, take the wheel ♪ ♪ Take it from my hands ♪ ♪ 'Cause I can't do this on my own ♪ ♪ I'm letting go ♪ ♪ So give me one more chance ♪ ♪ And save me from this road I'm on ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ Jesus, take the wheel ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ It was still turning colder ♪ ♪ When she made it to the shoulder ♪ ♪ And the car came to a stop ♪ ♪ She cried when she saw that baby in the back seat ♪ ♪ Sleeping like a rock.

♪ ♪ For the first time in a long time, ♪ ♪ She bowed her head to pray ♪ ♪ She said, "I'm sorry for the way ♪ ♪ "that I've been livin' my life ♪ ♪ "I know I've got to change, so from now on tonight" ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ Jesus, take the wheel ♪ ♪ Take it from my hands ♪ ♪ 'Cause I can't do this on my own ♪ ♪ I'm letting go ♪ ♪ So give me one more chance ♪ ♪ And save me from this road I'm on ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ Jesus, take the wheel ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ Oh, I'm letting go ♪ ♪ So give me one more chance ♪ ♪ And save me from this road I'm on ♪ ♪ From this road I'm on ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ Jesus take the wheel ♪ [gentle guitar] ♪ Oh, take the wheel ♪ [gentle guitar] [chuckles] - Yeah, Tim DuBois, was on to something.

[laughs] - Thank you.

- I think you could have had a career.

- Thank you.

Thank you.

- I, um, I- and one of the toughest things in the history of country music is for country music to appeal to a wider audience.

That's why a Dolly Parton is, is such an exception.

And that's also the case with most, most country writers.

It goes over here.

It doesn't go over here.

-Yeah.

- And you have made that transition.

You have written country, huge country hits, but then you've got cuts by- well, Bon Jovi- - Sure.

- Kelly Clarkson- - Mm-hm.

- Uh, Uncle Kracker, with Kenny Chesney.

Is that a question of just shifting gears, or is a song, is a song, is a song?

- No, it's a question of shifting gears.

It's a bit of a different art form, you know?

It's a different palette you're painting with, you know.

And for me, you kind of have to- just like anything else, you have to educate yourself on what you're getting into before you walk in that room, and try to write a song that's a pop song, or been looking at some Latin hits and some, you know, Christian hits, all that good stuff.

Um, and for me, it's just a matter of taking the time to, kind of, educate yourself a little bit and, kind of, you know, put yourself in, in, in those shoes.

Um, you know, you know writing for me is, is all the same.

It's just all music.

But, ah, you know, I like to, kind of, put myself in the character of the artist, of, of the singer, or the, or the- whoever can sing the song- the person in the song.

And for a pop song, it's just a little different character sometimes.

- Yeah.

- Do you go into that writing session, and say, "Guys, I want to write something with no banjo on it."

- [laughs] - Usually, no.

Most of the time, um, most of the time I'm in LA, or I'm in London, or I'm in a different town than in Nashville writing pop songs.

And there for that reason, as opposed to, you know, we're just- it's, it's just a typical day.

And we're- today we're going to write a pop song.

Yesterday, we wrote a country song.

It's usually just a different- you know, you- you're there to do that specific thing.

- So you're bilingual?

- Aw, I don't know about- no, I wish I were bilingual.

No.

- [laughter] - The Latin songs have been [chuckles] rewritten, trust me.

- One of those rock hits, pop hits is, uh, "Mr. Know It All."

- Oh, sure.

- By Kelly Clarkson.

Was that written for her?

Did you have, or did you have a female artist in mind?

- Well we, we were trying to write for Kelly, absolutely.

Um, I was writing with one of the greatest pop female songwriters ever, Ester Dean, um, and, and Brian Kennedy was there with us doing, doing the music- the tracks that day.

And, um, you know, so we were in a studio in LA, very much trying to write pop songs.

I don't remember if we wrote that one specifically for Kelly, but it sure felt like her when we were done with it.

And, ah, yeah, she was- that was a fun week.

I remember, I think that was one of the first times I'd ever been to, and, you know, spent a full week in LA, and we got, like, four or five cuts, and a couple of singles, I'm like, "This is easy," you know.

And then, 20 more trips, and nothing really happened for a while.

But, ah, that particular trip, we had a lot of success.

And, ah, that was, that was the best ones of the, of the trip.

- Can I ask you to play that?

- Absolutely.

So, ah, like, like I say, um, I always say, I do like to get in character for songs.

[strums guitar] Um, you know, I- I love writing songs for women.

I have, you know, what- I think I've had a little over 500 songs recorded and about half of them have been by women, which in my first single, my first hit with Troy was- [strums guitar] ♪ I am Rosemary's granddaughter ♪ ♪ The spitting image of my father ♪ That one, which is really cool to write, but it's really weird to play for groups full of strangers.

- [laughs] - You know, you're a middle-aged guy, and you're singing being- about being someone's granddaughter.

So, I always kind of preface these, you know, these songs by saying that, uh, you know, I- I have a, a, you know, a, a, a, you know, a different, a different, uh, plan when I write for women and it involves a teddy, and a bubble bath, - [laughs] - and a glass of chablis- and that's all just not true.

But I do like to get in character.

And so, this is the, the very angry feminine side of me.

[strums guitar] - Um, let's see.

[strums guitar] ♪ Mist- ♪ Let's see- ♪ Mr. Know-It-All ♪ There it is.

1, 2, 3- got to move a key- [upbeat guitar] ♪ Mr. Know-It-All ♪ ♪ Well, ya, you think you know it all ♪ ♪ But ya don't know a thing at all ♪ ♪ Ain't it something y'all ♪ ♪ When somebody tells you something 'bout you ♪ ♪ Think they know you, more than you do ♪ ♪ So ya take it down, another pill to swallow ♪ [upbeat guitar] ♪ Well, Mr. Bring-Me-Down ♪ ♪ Well, ya, ya like to bring me down, don't ya?

♪ ♪ But I ain't laying down ♪ ♪ No, I ain't going down ♪ ♪ Ain't nobody gonna tell me how it's gonna be ♪ ♪ Nobody's gonna make a fool outta me ♪ ♪ You should know that I lead not follow ♪ ♪ Oh, you think that you know me, know me ♪ ♪ That's why I'm leaving you lonely, lonely ♪ ♪ 'Cause, baby, you don't know a thing about me ♪ ♪ You don't know a thing about me ♪ [upbeat guitar] ♪ Well, Mr. Play-Your-Games, only got yourself to blame ♪ ♪ When ya want me back again, but I ain't coming back again ♪ ♪ 'Cause I'm livin' my truth without your lies ♪ ♪ Let's be clear, baby, this is goodbye ♪ ♪ I ain't coming back tomorrow ♪ ♪ Oh, you think that you know me, know me ♪ ♪ That's why I'm leaving you lonely, lonely ♪ ♪ 'Cause, baby, you don't know a thing about me ♪ ♪ You don't know a thing about me ♪ [upbeat guitar] ♪ You ain't got the right to tell me when and where to go ♪ ♪ No right to tell me ♪ ♪ Actin' like you own me lately ♪ ♪ 'Cause baby you don't know a thing about me ♪ ♪ You don't know a thing about me ♪ [upbeat guitar] ♪ And so what?

♪ ♪ You've got the world at your feet ♪ ♪ Think you know everything about everything ♪ ♪ Well you don't ♪ ♪ You don't understand a single thing about... me ♪ ♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ♪ ♪ Oh, you think that you know me, know me ♪ ♪ That's why I'm leaving you lonely, lonely ♪ ♪ 'Cause, baby, you don't know a thing about me ♪ ♪ You don't know a thing about me, yeah ♪ ♪ You ain't got the right to tell me ♪ ♪ When and where to go, no right to tell me ♪ ♪ Actin' like you own me lately ♪ ♪ 'Cause, baby, you don't know a thing about me ♪ ♪ You don't know a thing about me ♪ [guitar music] ♪ Mr. Know-It-All, well, ya, you think you know it all ♪ ♪ But ya don't know a thing at all ♪ ♪ 'Cause baby you don't know a thing about me ♪ ♪ You don't know a thing about me ♪ - Wow.

- Something like that.

- Yeah, you're clearly comfortable with your masculinity.

- [laughs] - You have to be to sing that one.

You know, what's remarkable about that is that, for a man to write that song, and sound authentic is hard enough, but then it's anthemic, you know?

It's- I'm, I'm just glad, "I Am Woman" was not written by [laughs] Hank Reddy or something like that.

You know, we, we're almost out of time, but it just strikes me that this is a, a very strange career you have, in that you, you go to work every day, and no day's are particularly good or bad, they're just pr-productive, you hope.

But then when you have success, it tends not to be a mild success.

It's like, it's like if you're a baseball pitcher, and the only time you pitched, you either got killed, or you threw a perfect game.

- Right.

- And it's a profession that has occasional highs, and the highs are enormous.

- Sure.

- How, how do you even reconcile that in your head?

How do you keep at it when you don't know when the next success will be, or where it will be?

- Well, you know, after being in the music business now for almost 30 years, you really learn how to temper your excitement, and temper your disappointment at the same time.

And you just, kind of, try- I try, I always, keep my emotions right in here, you know.

Because, ah, you know, it hurts.

There's a lot, there's a lot of failure, you know, that you talk about, "Wow, I'm in, I'm in the Songwriter Hall of Fame," that- it's amazing, it's one of the greatest honors of my life but-.

And we talk about, you know, I've had over 500 songs recorded that sounds just amazing, and bunch of number ones, all that great stuff.

Well, I've written 3,500 songs, or more, that have never been recorded by anyone, you know?

So you have to be ready to fail a lot, and regularly.

You know, we always- my joke is what do you do for a living?

You know, we show up, we make stuff up, and hope somebody cares.

Most days, nobody cares, you know?

Most days, a lot of my favorite songs I've ever written are on shelves and nobody ever heard so.

I think that's just part of it, and you have to, kind of, be willing to keep your head down, and keep working.

- That's the key to your success clearly.

And hang on to those 3,500 because one day, there will be "Brett James, The Collected Works."

- [laughs] - I don't think we have time for that.

[laughs] - Thank you for your time and for your art.

- Much appreciated.

- Thank you for having me.

- My pleasure.

[gentle guitar music] - For more information about the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame, please visit, nashvillesongwriters foundation.com