♪ >> Hello and welcome to Canada Files .

I'm Jim Deeks.

Our guest on this episode was one of the most respected leaders of the western world in the latter 20th century years.

Former Canadian prime minister, Right Honorable Brian Mulroney.

A colleague, confidante and friend to fellow G7 leaders-- like Ronald Reagan, George H.W.

Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Helmut Kohl, and others.

Then, a sought-after advisor to CEOs and multi-national organizations.

Mr. Mulroney and his wife, Mila, now enjoy semi-retirement in Montreal and Palm Beach, Florida.

Where we sat down for the following conversation.

>> Prime Minister, thanks so much for agreeing to join us for this interview today.

>> Happy to be with you today.

>> There's so much that we could discuss about your life and your career.

But 30 minutes isn't enough time to get into real detail.

Let me start from a 10,000 foot level.

And 30 years of perspective.

You were prime minister of Canada from 1984 - 1993.

Do you look back on those years generally as a great success?

Or do you sometimes wish you had some of those years back to do over.

>> I think every president or prime minister has regrets.

To say if I had that to do over, I'd do it differently.

But generally speaking, I'll quote my friend, Ronald Reagan, when they asked him how he thought his eight years had gone.

He said, "Well, not bad.

Not bad."

I would say the same thing about our government.

We were there nine years.

We did very big and convulsive things.

Which were very challenged and unpopular at the time.

Like free trade, NAFTA, tax reform and the GST.

But they've all turned out to be durable.

Still there today.

The reason is they bring such benefits to Canada.

I always said that I was going to govern not for easy headlines in 10 days.

But for a better Canada in 10 years.

Generally speaking, with some errors along the way obviously, that's what we've done.

>> Do you think history and historians have served you well?

>> It's too early.

Churchill said when asked how history was going to treat him, He said, "I think history will treat me very well because I plan to write it myself."

I can't do that.

>> And you have.

This book is now 15 years old.

But it's a wonderful read.

I commend you on it.

>> Thank you.

>> What are some of the highlights of those nine years?

That really stick out in your mind.

>> Politically, the big events.

Without the political results, you don't become prime minister.

The fact that I won the largest victory in the history of Canada Then I won another major victory four years later.

Thereby becoming the first Conservative prime minister to do this in 100 years.

That was the political stuff that I thought will stand up in history.

On the substantive matters, I think our work bringing the Canada-United States free trade agreement to Canada that I did with President Reagan.

Then I did the NAFTA with President Bush.

The Acid Rain Treaty which cleaned up our environment.

Our work internationally when we liberated Nelson Mandela.

Caused, in considerable measure, the abolition of apartheid in South Africa.

Those big-ticket items like that will stand the test of time.

I certainly hope so.

>> When you were first elected PM in '84, you provided a lot of Canadians with the hope that you would be able to, perhaps, be a unifying force.

For some of the dissatisfaction happening in Canada.

Particularly in your home province of Quebec.

Which had been flirting with the idea of secession for nearly a decade.

Also Western Canada, ...specifically Alberta.

Which had a festering unhappiness about the way the rest of Canada was succeeding from its oil and gas.

By the end of your tenure, not much had really changed.

There was still rancour and dissatisfaction.

Do you think those two provinces will ever be happy in the Canadian unification?

>> Political happiness is relative.

The country is doing well by any standard.

Canada has always done well.

In many ways, we are a very blessed and fortunate nation.

Sometimes we don't realize how much.

We have this great neighbour to the south.

With whom we have, should have, excellent relationships.

So we've got a lot to be happy about.

But you know regional alienation is a feature of a great nation.

Second largest nation in the world after Russia.

With a population that only hits 38 million.

So it's spread thinly across 5,000 miles.

That gives rise to the strength in regions.

And it dissipates a lot of strength at the national level.

So a prime minister always has to be conscious of that.

Geography plays a big role in our political life.

Margaret Thatcher used to say, "Within one hour, I can be anywhere in the kingdom."

Within an hour, Brian can't get to the airport.

It gives you an idea of the dimensions of the challenge.

Given our geography.

>> Let's move on and talk about some of the world leaders that you worked with and knew well.

There's no question that one of your strengths as prime minister and a good part of your legacy was your ability to get on with other world leaders.

You had a very pragmatic view of the world order.

Without getting too deep into the details of specific geopolitical issues of the day, I want to throw out some names that we all know.

To ask about your personal relationship with them.

And your view of them 30 years later.

Let's start with your great friend, Ronald Reagan.

>> President Reagan was a consummate political leader.

In an interesting way, I always thought that his greatest quality as a leader was that he was in communion with Americans.

When he sat down as President of the United States, he exemplified the strength and majesty of the office of president.

I liked him.

We got along very well personally.

We were great friends.

He was an easy guy to deal with.

Funny, entertaining.

But very firm.

He once told me, "You know, Brian...

I'm not here to deal with details."

"I've got my views of the world."

"Free trade.

Strong America.

Anti-communist.

Anti-Soviet."

He had four or five main issues.

He said, "I deal with those and I let my cabinet ministers and others deal with the details.

He wasn't a detail guy.

But I admired him and like him a lot.

>> His successor, George Herbert Walker Bush.

>> Wonderful guy.

George Bush knew more about foreign policy than any group of professors combined from the US.

He was a detailed man--loved foreign affairs in particular.

He knew cousins of presidents of this and that country.

He knew all the nuances of foreign policy.

Most of all, he was America's gentleman, in dealing with foreign leaders and countries.

He was never a bully, never threw his weight around.

But you always knew you were dealing with a dignified, highly impressive, brave and resolute man.

This guy was 19, fighting off the Japanese against imperial Japan.

Very courageous.

I loved Bush.

>> Talking about resolute, the Iron Lady, British President Margaret Thatcher.

>> Margaret was... we served together a long time.

Then after she was overthrown, I was still in office.

We had her visit us in Harrington Lake.

Which is the Prime Minster's summer residence.

We spent a lot of time together in her retirement.

I love Margaret.

She never changed.

She was the best-prepared person at any meeting.

The most incisive debater, I have ever seen.

The most vigorous defender of British interests whoever existed.

She was the epitome of leadership.

It was very unfortunate that in turn, in some regrettable way led to her overthrow by her own party.

Remember when she used to say, "I'm going to go on and on."

This is a democracy.

You don't say or do that.

I think that led to a brisure between her and her caucus.

Which resulted in her highly-regrettable overthrow as Prime Minister.

>> Last one.

A man who was, for a short time, was the architect of a new world order .

Russian President, Mikhail Gorbachev.

>> I met Gorbachev in the Kremlin the day he became leader in March 1985.

I went back and said to President Reagan who was coming to Quebec City a few days later.

He hadn't met or seen him.

I said, "Ron, this is a new game in town."

"This guy is entirely different."

I think you are going to get along well with him.

He wants to do deals that will advance the social welfare of the Russian Soviet people.

Indeed, that's what he did.

Gorbachev today, is not the figure that he's going to become in history.

He will be like Mandela, for different reasons, a giant in history.

Because the dissolution of the Soviet Union was probably the greatest epical event of the 20th century.

It came about without firing a shot.

Everybody including me gives credit to President Reagan for his leadership in this area.

He couldn't have done it without Gorbachev on the other side.

I view him in the same light as Nelson Mandela.

Who was a great leader and great friend of ours.

Gorbachev and I have remained friendly over all these years.

We worked together very carefully.

He's going to be a giant in history.

>> Let's talk about Canada.

Here we are nearly three decades after you left office.

How do you feel about Canada's future ahead, today?

Are you as optimistic as you might have been 30 years ago when you left the prime ministership?

>> I am.

Every prime minister... builds upon the successes of his predecessors.

Canada is now 155 years old.

It's a functioning, prosperous, admired democracy in the world.

That means long term success.

We've got what we have to do to continue to achieve we need a much greater population.

I've been advocating for a population increase from our present 38 million to 75 - 100 million people.

>> We've got to do.

>> We have the room for it.

>> We have the room.

We just have to do it.

We have to strike down all inter-provincial trade barriers that exist in Canada.

We've got to energize and educate our people in terms of Aboriginal fairness for our First Nations.

We've got to rid of this scourge of anti-Semitism.

That's everywhere!

Including polite old Canada.

We've got to rid of that.

We've got to increase our productivity as a nation.

Our productivity is lower than the state of Mississippi.

That's a tax on Canadian prosperity.

We've got to do better.

We should look for free trade area of the Americas.

Which would bring in 34 nations with a billion people.

A GDP of $30 trillion a year.

This is where Canada could provide leadership.

Because we've done it before.

We've got to develop our natural resources including our oil and gas resources.

In harmony with a policy of favouring the environment.

It can be done!

People say it can't be done.

Of course, it can be done.

If you can put a man on the moon, you can do this.

At the moment, we're stalled.

Now the pandemic has been largely responsible for that.

But we don't have big ideas anymore.

Our country needs the satisfaction and the challenge that comes from needing big ideas.

Achieving great things.

Maybe it's all the pandemic.

I'm not sure.

But we've got to do better.

>> We're sitting here on a lovely day in late winter 2022.

While things are pretty quiet in Canada, these are very turbulent times in this country.

How do you see the short-term future for America?

Because there's a lot of unhappiness in this country.

>> I'm of the school that says the United States of America is the greatest democratic republic that God ever placed on the face of this earth.

Nobody ever made a nickel betting against America.

While there's a lot of nonsense going on at the top, I have great confidence in the American people.

To see their way through this and come back big time .

With a lot of success.

But I must admit the turbulence we are seeing now-- political turbulence.

The polarization in America.

The antipathy that exists between parties and people is something I've never seen before.

I've known ten American presidents.

I worked intimately with three.

This is something brand new to me.

I've never seen it before.

I've never seen presidents act or say things like this before.

So it's new to me but I have great confidence in the institutions of the US.

And the people of the US.

>> Let me ask you about China.

Are we in the western world justified in thinking... and I quote, "Be afraid, be very afraid."

>> The answer to that... is yes and no.

Yes, China right now is looking for hegemony in all kinds of areas.

Some of them very worrisome.

So the attitudes can be either we shove them off to the side, not deal with them.

Or we engage with them-- policy of engagement .

We have to do that.

Because China is not going anywhere.

1.4 billion people that are only going to grow.

And stay in size and strength.

We must deal with them.

I'm confident that even though there's a lot of hostility between America and China, at the moment.

And the rest of the world, in many ways.

It's not going to last because we can't let it last!

This is going to lead to collisions, wars and poverty.

For a lot of people, if all of a sudden this whole system is thrown to the ground.

We're going to regret the day that happened.

I can remember meeting with Deng Xiaoping in 1986 in China.

He was the great reformer.

I had a lot of time with him.

We had some great meetings.

He was forecasting a China that you see today without the malevolence or instinct for hegemony.

He was talking about a much more co-operative China.

That he wanted to build which indeed he did!

Then we got off the rails the last number of years.

That has to be, and will be corrected.

Because it must be corrected.

It can't persist like this.

We're just going this way towards a collision.

I think informed, able leadership of the industrial nations led by the United States of America.

By inspired leadership from the US will put us back on course.

When I was there, the challenge was not China.

It was the Soviet Union.

The industrialized nations got together-- the G7, European Union and the others.

We gave Ronald Reagan a blank cheque in terms of leadership.

We supported the US as he articulated a vision of freedom and growth with the Soviet Union.

But through strength.

That's what got us through the Cold War.

The solidarity of the West in supporting the US leadership.

In dealing with this extraordinary challenge.

>> You've had an amazing life.

And have many more years left.

>> I certainly hope.

>> It's been a charmed life.

For a kid who grew up in northeastern Quebec.

I know you wouldn't agree to that statement without acknowledging the person who has been at your side constantly for 49 years-- the mother of your children.

Tell me a bit of your feelings about Mila Mulroney.

>> It's right there in that book you have--the memoirs.

The dedication is simply, "To Mila".

The reason it's to Mila is because without Mila, I'm not sitting here.

You're not interviewing me because I wouldn't have...

I often said I could have been back driving a truck in Baie Comeau.

She's been and is a marvellous person.

A fantastic influence on my life, and on our family.

She's the leader.

She's sharp, well-intentioned for us all.

In many ways, like Nancy Reagan.

In the sense that she was very protective of me.

The only time I got into trouble was when I didn't listen to her advice about people, and sometimes policy.

She has been the heart and soul of the family.

>> Last question--one I ask all my guests on Canada Files .

I ask it of someone who has worn his national pride on his sleeve and in his heart, for a few decades.

What does being Canadian mean to you?

>> ...for some Canadians, as you know, it means not being an American.

There's a lot of anti-Americanism around.

I dispute that completely.

For me, being Canadian means taking pride in the citizenship we have, in surely one of the greatest nations in the world.

Our history tells us that.

Our achievements, bravery in WW1 and WW2, Korea, the Gulf War, Afghanistan.

The bravery of Canadians tells me that.

The honour of our citizens.

The greatness of our immigrant communities.

There's never been a wave of immigration to Canada from anywhere that didn't enhance the dignity of our citizenship and wealth of our nation.

So we've been a welcoming and great nation.

We've done more than our share internationally.

That too is a matter of pride to me.

For example, we talked earlier about Mandela.

Canada took the lead in that.

Mandela never forgot it.

The Ethiopian famine where we took the lead and, according to the experts, saved 7 million lives.

Because we live next to the US, the greatest country, >>the most powerful nation ...in the world.

>> On the planet >> Oftentimes, our achievements are lost in the mix.

Because of the strength of America.

If Canada, geographically was placed in the middle of Europe, we'd be a super power.

Even with our 38 million people.

But you have to realize that's the way it is.

I once said to the Americans, if you don't like Canada maybe you can have Russia as a neighbour.

Or China.

How would you like that?

In fact, this combination of Canada and the US has been, as Winston Churchill said over 80 years ago, "This is a model for the entire world."

"The co-operation and achievements of Canada and the US are an example for mankind."

...I take great pride in our country.

I'm very proud that I was privileged to be invited by the Canadian people to serve two terms as Prime Minister of Canada.

Which is a marvellous country.

Even though the population didn't always appreciate what I was trying to do, that's the price you pay for living in a great democracy.

I look back on it now and I'm very happy and satisfied.

But I know that new young leaders will take us to greater heights.

If you look back at Canada 155 years from now, people will say there is a country.

>> Prime Minister, thank you so much for your comments, insight and charm.

>> Thank you very much.

Happy to be with you.

>> And thank you for watching.

This is the final episode in Season 3 of Canada Files .

On behalf of all of us on the Canada Files crew, thank you, be safe and be well.

♪