>>> WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT POLICING IN MINNEAPOLIS WITH UNIVERSITY OF ST.

PAUL THOMAS HISTORIAN WILLIAMS.

THE DIRECTOR OF THE SCHOOL'S RACIAL JUSTICE INITIATIVES.

ONE OF HIS AREAS OF EXPERTISE S THE ISTORY OF POLICING IN THE TWIN CITIES.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>>> COUNCIL PRESIDENT PAYNE SAID SOMETHING INTERESTING ABOUT A MINUTE AGO.

HE FELT THAT THE CHIEF'S TENURE WAS KIND OF A MIXED BAG, THAT SOME OF THE LOW-HANGING FRUIT WAS DONE.

BUT THE HARDEST WORK IS STILL AHEAD.

SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT CHIEF O'HARA DID, WHAT IS YOUR READ ON IT?

>>> I THINK THAT TAKE IS VERY ACCURATE.

BECAUSE CHIEF O'HARA, IF WE THINK ABOUT WHAT HE INHERITED AS CHIEF, WAS COMING INTO A SITUATION WHERE THERE WERE A LOT OF CHALLENGES AND HE HAD TO NAVIGATE BOTH THE POTENTIAL FOR A FEDERAL CONSENT DECREE, THE MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RIGHTS, LOW MARRIAL AMONG OFFICERS, DEEP DISTRUST AND THE LEGACY OF THE MURDER OF GEORG FLOYD.

AND THEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND OPERATION OF METRO SURGE.

SO IF WE LOOK AT IT IN THAT CONTEXT, THERE IS A LOT TO CELEBRATE, CONCERNS OF THAT LOW-HANGING FRUIT THAT COUNCIL PRESIDENT PAYNE SPOKE TO.

MORALE IS UP, THE NUMBER OF OFFICERS IS UP, EVEN THOUGH THAT'S QUESTIONABLE, BUT THE FACT THAT MATTERS WE'RE ABOUT 640 OR I HEARD MAY YEAR FREY SAY EARLIER THIS WEEK.

SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THOSE METRICS AND WE THINK ABOUT AT LEAST THOSE FIRST TWO REPORTS FROM AFFECTIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR ALL ON THE MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF UMAN RIGHTS CONSENT DECREE, THERE SEEM TO BE PROGRESS AND MOMENTUM.

THIS MOST RECENT REPORT FROM A.L.

I.

F.A., HOWEVER, IS NOW LOOKING SOME OF THAT PROGRESS MAY ACTUALLY BE MOVING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

>>> WHAT DOES THE CITY HAVE TO OFFER A NEW POLICE CHIEF?

HOW DO YOU SELL THIS OPENING TO A NATIONWIDE SURGE?

>>> I THINK THAT'S SOME OF THE SENSITIVITY AROUND WHY MAYOR FREY MAY NOT HAVE TAKEN ACTION.

THE LAST TIME I WAS WITH BOTH OF YOU WAS THIS TIME LAST YEAR, SHORTLY AFTER THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PULLED OUT OF THAT CONSENT DECREE WITH REGARD TO GEORG FLOYD.

AND YOU HEARD MAYOR FREY MAKE A FULL THROATED COMMITMENT TO CONTINUING WORK WITH POLICE REFORM.

FOR BETTER OR WORSE, BRIAN O'HARA WAS THE FACE OF THAT, AND MANY PEOPLE FELT WAS DOING A GOOD JOB.

SO TO PULL HIM OUT MAY HAVE FELT LIKE, IN ADDITION O THE PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH NOT EXTENDING DUE PROCESS, MAY HAVE FELT LIKE PULLING BACK ON THAT REFORM EFFORT AND THE PERSON WHO WAS AT THE FOREFRONT OF IT.

SO TO BE GENEROUS TO MAYOR FREY IN THAT SENSE, A LOT MAY HAVE BEEN ABOUT IF YOU DO THIS, ARE YOU GOING TO IN SOME SENSE HURT THAT PROCESS TOWARD REFORM BY THANKS OUT THE LEGS.

>>> WHY AS A HISTORIAN NOW, YOU STUDY AT THE DEPARTMENT, WHY DOES IT SEEM TO BE SUCH A MESS?

I MEAN, MAYBE THAT'S NOT A RIGHT PHRASE TO USE.

BUT YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THE LEADERSHIP IN THE PAST.

THERE JUST SEEMS TO BE THIS KIND OF STOP/START.

IT'S HARD TO GET MOMENTUM GOING.

WHY IS THAT?

>>> I THINK THAT'S FAIR.

AND I THINK PART OF IT IS THE CULTURE.

AND WE SAW THIS IN THIS MOST RECENT REPORT FROM ALIFA, ONCE THEY RELEASED THAT REPORT, WHICH COVERS THE PERIOD FROM APRIL 1ST TRUE SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR, THEY TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE CULTURE IN DEPARTMENT CONTINUES TO BE RESIST O REFORM.

AND SO WHEN COUNCIL PRESIDENT PAYNE SAYS THIS IS THE HARD WORK, THE LOW-HANGING FRUIT IS DONE, WHEN ONLY 6 OF THE 16 POLICY CHANGES HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED, WHEN OFFICERS ARE STILL - REBECCA LUCERO FROM THE MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION SAYS.

IF OFFICERS DON'T HAVE FULLY WRITTEN AND EXECUTED POLICIES, HOW CAN YOU HAVE REAL ACCOUNTABILITY?

THOSE ARE REAL CHALLENGES.

THIS IS WHERE THE REAL WORK WAS BEGINNING.

AND SO I WORRY IN THIS MOMENT AS WE HAVE THIS NATIONAL SURGE THAT MIGHT BE AN IMPEDIMENT TO FINDING SOMEONE WHO 79S TO TAKE ON THAT LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY.

>>> AROUND THE COUNTRY, WHAT IS THE LIFE SPAN OF CHIEFS?

IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WOULD BE HARD TO HAVE A CONSTANT, ONGOING LAN TO REFORM IF THEY'RE CHANGING CHIEFS EVERY FEW YEARS.

>>> VERY TRUE.

AND COUNCIL PERSON RAINVILLE SPOKE TO THIS.

THREE TO FIVE YEARS IS THE AVERAGE.

AND YOU ACTUALLY DON'T WANT YOUR CHIEF IN THAT LNG.

BECAUSE YOU DO WANT THAT KIND OF -- YOU DON'T WANT LEADERSHIP TO STAGNATE.

SO FIVE YEARS IS AN AVERAGE AND IS PRETTY GOOD.

IN BIG CITIES, THAT TURNOVER TENDS TO BE GREATER.

HERE IN PARTICULAR, MINNEAPOLIS WAS PROBLEMATIC IN THE SENSE YOU HAD THE LEGACY OF GEORG FLOYD, BUT ALSO EXCITING, I THINK, FOR SOMEONE LIKE O'HARA WITH THAT REFORM BACKGROUND.

LET'S HOPE THERE ARE CHIEFS OUT THERE WHO ARE LOOKING AT THIS COMMUNITY AND SAYING I CAN BUILD ON THAT WORK.

AND IT'S AN INVITATION FOR THEM TO THINK ABOUT HELPING US REACH THAT NEXT LEVEL.

>>> WHAT'S THE ROLE OF THE POLICE OFFICERS UNION?

WHAT -- WHAT, AS YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE POTENTIAL ISSUES MOVING FORWARD, HOW DO THEY FIT INTO IT?

HOW WOULD THAT LEADERSHIP FIT INTO IT?

>>> THAT'S GOING TO REMAIN A PROBLEM, BECAUSE THAT IS ALSO WHERE ALIFA IS STILL IDENTIFYING SOME OF THE DEEPEST RESISTANCE TO REFORM.

AND NO FEDERAL CONSENT DECREE, THE DEPARTURE OF O'HARA AND THEN JUST THIS MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RIGHTS CONSENT DECREE.

WILL YOU EE THE PENDULUM SWING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

IF YOU DON'T GET THE RIGHT LEADERSHIP IN PLACE.

IF COMMUNITY LOSES INTEREST.

IF WE HAVE ANOTHER INCIDENT LIKE METRO SURGE.

TO BE FAIR, METRO SURGE TOOK A LOT OF OUR ATTENTION, RIGHTFULLY, AWAY FROM POLICE REFORM, AND NOW WE'RE KIND OF SHIFTING BACK AND YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE THAT MOMENTUM.

>>> WOULD CITIZEN OUTREACH HELP IN SELECTING A NEW CHIEF, AND GET A LITTLE BUY-IN FROM THE COMMUNITY.

>>> I THINK YOU DEFINITELY HAVE TO THINK BOUT ENGAGING COMMUNITY IN A WAY THAT WOULD BE IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF REBUILDING PUBLIC TRUST.

I THINK ABOUT SOME OF THE COMMENTS MADE BY LEADERS, MEMBERS FROM COMMUNITIES AGAINST POLICE BRUTALITY IN FEBRUARY AT THIS EVENT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE IN COMMUNITY WANTED TO TALK ABOUT METRO SURGE.

COMMUNITIES UNITED SAID WE HAVE REAL ISSUES HERE IN TERMS OF OUR LOCAL POLICING AND IF WE KIND OF LOSE SIGHT OF THAT, WE'RE GOING TO LOSE MOMENTUM SO I THINK ENGAGING COMMUNITY WILL BE ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.

>>> BY THE WAY, ERIC ASKED ABOUT THE ACTING CHIEF, KATIE BLACKWELL.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HER.

WHAT IS HER LEADERSHIP STYLE.

>>> SHE HAS BEEN ASSISTANT CHIEF.

WE KNOW SHE TESTIFIED IN THE SHOW VIN TRIAL FOR THE PROSECUTION.

SO SHE IS CERTAINLY SOMEBODY WHO UNDERSTANDS AND WE KNOW HAS BEEN INVOLVED WITH THOSE REFORM EFFORTS.

HAS GREAT RESPECT AMONG HER FELLOW OFFICERS.

SO IT'S A SMART CHOICE, IT'S A SAFE CHOICE.

THE QUESTION WOULD BE, IS SHE INTERESTED IN THE JOB FULL-TIME AND IS THIS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE A NATIONAL EARCH OR ARE THEY GOING TO LOOKIN' TE