ANNOUNCER: BRICK BY BRICK IS MADE POSSIBLE THANKS TO LEADING SUPPORT FROM: AND MANY MORE.

WE COULDN'T DO THIS WORK WITHOUT YOU.

THANK YOU.

THOMPSON: RISING RENT, STAGNANT WAGES, AND A SHORTAGE OF HOUSING CONTINUES TO TAKE ITS TOLL ON THE LOW INCOME, FORCING MORE PEOPLE INTO SHELTERS AND OUT ON THE STREETS.

FINN: IN 2023, WE FOUND 11 FAMILIES SLEEPING IN CARS.

IN 2025, IT WAS 326.

THOMPSON: HOMELESSNESS IS UP 3% IN OHIO AND 18% NATIONALLY.

AMONG CHILDREN, IT ROSE 33%.

MANY DISAPPEAR FROM SCHOOL AS THEIR FAMILIES HAVE TO MOVE.

DR.

ROWELL: HE SAID, "I DON'T EVEN HAVE A DREAM HOME.

I WOULD JUST LIKE A DREAM BED."

HE WAS 12 YEARS OLD AND HAD NEVER SLEPT IN A BED.

THOMPSON: CRIMINALIZING THE UNHOUSED IS A GROWING TREND.

IT'S HAPPENING INCREASINGLY IN OHIO AND SURROUNDING STATES.

CHANGES IN FEDERAL FUNDING POLICY ARE ALSO A ROADBLOCK, LEADING TO UNCERTAINTY.

BAILEY: THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING THAT CONTINUUM OF CARE CAN ONLY HAVE 30% OF THEIR FUNDING IN PERMANENT HOUSING.

MONTGOMERY COUNTY CURRENTLY HAS 87%.

THOMPSON: BUT SOME COMMUNITIES ARE FINDING SOLUTIONS, INCLUDING A HOUSING COURT IN SUBURBAN COLUMBUS AND THE USE OF DATA ANALYTICS IN CINCINNATI.

FINN: SO NOT ONLY CAN WE PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BECOMING HOMELESS AT A LOWER COST AND WITH BETTER OUTCOMES, BUT WE SAVE PEOPLE ALL THAT TRAUMA.

THOMPSON: CAN THESE PROGRAMS AND OTHERS BE REPLICATED?

IN THIS EPISODE WE'RE TALKING HOMELESSNESS, SUPPORTIVE PROGRAMS CALLED CONTINUUM OF CARE, AND WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR THE UNHOUSED IN A SOCIETY WHERE THE COST OF HOUSING CONTINUES TO GO UP.

STAY TUNED FOR A SPECIAL CONVERSATION, AND MY COLLEAGUES, HERNZ LAGUERRE, JR.

AND EMIKO MOORE WILL JOIN ME AT THE END FOR SOME TAKEAWAYS.

LET'S GET INTO IT.

THIS IS BRICK BY BRICK; SOLUTIONS FOR A THRIVING COMMUNITY.

HELLO AND WELCOME TO BRICK BY BRICK, WHERE WE'RE HIGHLIGHTING SOLUTIONS FOR A THRIVING COMMUNITY IN SOUTHWEST OHIO.

I'M YOUR HOST, ANN THOMPSON.

IT'S HARD TO CAPTURE JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE UNHOUSED.

THE POINT IN TIME COUNT WAS IN JANUARY, BUT MANY AGREE THAT EXCLUDES THOSE TEMPORARILY STAYING WITH FRIENDS OR FAMILY, LIVING IN HOTELS AND PEOPLE IN PRISONS OR DETOX CENTERS.

SO THE NUMBER IS PROBABLY MUCH HIGHER THAN LAST YEAR'S 639 IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, AND MORE THAN A THOUSAND IN HAMILTON COUNTY.

THE NUMBER OF UNHOUSED NEIGHBORS RECEIVING SERVICES LAST YEAR WAS 4000 IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY AND MORE THAN 7000 IN HAMILTON COUNTY.

BRICK BY BRICK WANTED TO BRING TOGETHER A PANEL OF EXPERTS TO TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEM ACROSS THE REGION AND POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS.

DR.

KATHY ROWELL IS A SOCIOLOGIST, TEACHER AND THE DEL MAR ENCORE FELLOW, DAYTON FOUNDATION AT THE FITZ CENTER FOR LEADERSHIP IN THE COMMUNITY AT UNIVERSITY OF DAYTON.

PATRICK BAILEY IS ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF HUMAN SERVICES, PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT FOR MONTGOMERY COUNTY, OVERSEEING THE CONTINUUM OF CARE STAFF AND KEVIN FINN IS PRESIDENT AND CEO OF STRATEGIES TO END HOMELESSNESS IN CINCINNATI, THE UNIFIED FUNDING AGENCY FOR THE AREA'S CONTINUUM OF CARE.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE, ALL OF YOU.

ALL: THANK YOU.

KATHY, LET'S START WITH YOU.

HELP US PERSONALIZE HOMELESSNESS.

YOU HAVE SPENT LOTS OF TIME FOR YOUR BOOK, ESPECIALLY, FACING EVICTION AND HOUSING INSECURITY WITH UNHOUSED PEOPLE.

GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES OF DIFFERENT SEGMENTS OF THE POPULATION YOU ENCOUNTERED AND WHAT THEY EXPERIENCED.

DR.

ROWELL: YEAH.

THANK YOU.

YEAH, I STARTED DOING THIS WORK ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO, I STARTED WORKING AT A SHELTER, AND I'VE HAD OPPORTUNITIES TO SLEEP OUTSIDE WITH FOLKS.

I'VE SLEPT IN SHELTERS.

AND RECENTLY, AS YOU KNOW IN THE BOOK, INTERVIEWED A LOT OF FOLKS STRUGGLING.

AND I THINK THE PART OF THE STORY THAT WE OFTEN DON'T HEAR IS IT AFFECTS SO MANY PEOPLE IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

BUT IN PARTICULAR, I WANTED TO SHARE TWO STORIES.

FIRST OF ALL, I THINK ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING NUMBERS ARE SENIORS AND SENIOR CITIZENS.

AND INCREASINGLY, SOCIAL SECURITY IS NOT COVERING THE COST OF HOUSING.

AND WE RAN INTO A GENTLEMAN WHO'S FEATURED IN THE BOOK WHO I MEAN, I REMEMBER I LISTENED TO THE PERSON INTERVIEWING HIM, AND I STILL TO THIS DAY THINK ABOUT HIM A LOT.

HE PASSED, NOT TOO LONG AFTER WE WROTE THE BOOK, IN SHELTER, AND HE HAD BEEN ON SOCIAL SECURITY MOST OF HIS LIFE.

AND THEN THEY RAISED THE RENT.

AND HE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH FAMILY AND ENDED UP IN A SHELTER.

AND HE WAS CRYING DURING HIS INTERVIEW BECAUSE THIS WAS NOT HOW HE THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO END HIS LIFE.

AND I THINK THAT'S A STORY THAT WE'RE NOT HEARING ARE THE NUMBERS OF SENIORS AFFECTED BY THIS.

AND A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH RISING RENTS AND ALSO HEALTH INSURANCE.

I MEAN, THE COST OF HEALTH CARE HAS GONE UP.

AND SO THAT'S A SEGMENT THAT I THINK ABOUT QUITE A BIT.

AND THEN THE BOOK AND THEN I HAVE A DOCUMENTARY THAT CAME OUT RECENTLY FOCUSED ON CHILDREN.

AND DURING COVID I BASICALLY WAS AT THE SHELTER MOST DAYS INTERVIEWING KIDS.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENED TO US, BUT I THINK THAT THE PAIN THAT CHILDREN EXPERIENCE WHEN THEY'RE LIVING UNHOUSED IS REALLY HARD TO HEAR.

THEY SHARED STORIES OF LEAVING PETS BEHIND, TOYS BEHIND, AND ONE LITTLE BOY, WHEN I ASKED HIM WHAT HIS DREAM HOME WAS, TOLD ME, HE SAID, "I DON'T EVEN HAVE A DREAM HOME.

I WOULD JUST LIKE A DREAM BED."

HE WAS 12 YEARS OLD AND HAD NEVER SLEPT IN A BED.

HE HAD SLEPT ON A SLEEPING BAG HIS ENTIRE LIFE.

THOMPSON: THOSE STORIES ARE REALLY HARD TO HEAR.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED, AMONG THE HARDEST HIT ARE CHILDREN.

BRICK BY BRICK INTERVIEWED DIRECTOR OF THE COALITION ON HOMELESSNESS AND HOUSING IN OHIO, AMY RIEGEL, WHO SAID THERE ARE NOW HOMELESS LIAISONS IN SCHOOLS.

RIEGEL: WHAT WE'RE HEARING FROM MORE AND MORE OF THOSE SCHOOL BASED LIAISONS IS THAT THEY ARE SEEING THE FAMILIES WHO ARE MOVING BETWEEN VERY HIGH, OVERCROWDED SITUATIONS WHO ARE DOUBLED UP, MAYBE SPENDING A FEW WEEKS, A FEW NIGHTS IN AN EXTENDED STAY HOTEL, BUT THAT THE KIDS ARE COMING TO SCHOOL SAYING, "WELL, WE HAD TO SLEEP IN OUR CAR LAST NIGHT," OR THAT PERHAPS THEY SLEPT IN A LOCATION THAT WAS NOT FIT FOR HUMAN HABITATION.

THOMPSON: SO DISTURBING THINGS TO HEAR.

YOU MENTIONED CHILDREN.

WHAT OTHER TRENDS, PATRICK AND KEVIN, HAVE YOU BEEN SEEING IN TERMS OF THE UNHOUSED?

FINN: WELL, YOU KNOW, I'LL JUMP IN SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FAMILIES RIGHT OUT OF THE BAT.

SO IN HAMILTON COUNTY IN 2023, WE FOUND 11 FAMILIES SLEEPING IN CARS.

IN 2025, IT WAS 326.

SO THAT IS AN INCREDIBLE INCREASE.

I THINK WE'RE ALSO DOING A BETTER JOB OF FINDING THEM.

BUT CLEARLY FAMILY HOMELESSNESS AND FAMILIES SLEEPING UNSHELTERED IS ABSOLUTELY AN ISSUE.

BAILEY: AND I WOULD CONCUR WITH THAT.

I KNOW IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, WE'VE SEEN OUR OVERALL HOMELESS NUMBERS HAVE BEEN RELATIVELY STABLE.

THERE'S BEEN MODEST INCREASES.

BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF UNSHELTERED FOLKS, IT'S INCREASED SIGNIFICANTLY.

FINN: HOMELESSNESS IS ON THE RISE AND HOMELESS SHELTERS DON'T MAGICALLY HAVE MORE BEDS WHEN HOMELESSNESS GOES UP.

SO A LOT OF TIMES WHERE YOU SEE THAT INCREASE IS PEOPLE WHO ARE UNSHELTERED.

THOMPSON: AND AS AMY WAS TALKING ABOUT, YOU HAVE CHILDREN AND THEY SUDDENLY DISAPPEAR FROM SCHOOLS BECAUSE THEIR FAMILIES HAVE TO MOVE.

FINN: A LOT OF TIMES FOR OUR FAMILY SHELTERS IN HAMILTON COUNTY, BY THE TIME A FAMILY COMES INTO A SHELTER, THE KIDS HAVE ALREADY CHANGED SCHOOLS 4, 5 OR 6 TIMES IN ONE ACADEMIC YEAR BECAUSE AS THEY WENT FROM COUCH TO COUCH WITH FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THOSE WERE THEIR LAST OPTIONS BEFORE BECOMING LITERALLY HOMELESS.

A LOT OF TIMES EACH OF THOSE MOVES NECESSITATED A SCHOOL CHANGE.

THOMPSON: WELL, PATRICK, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE HURDLES TO GETTING SOME OF THESE PEOPLE HELP?

BAILEY: I THINK ONE OF THE KEY ASPECTS IS LACK OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

I MEAN, HOUSING HAS BECOME SO EXPENSIVE, NOT ONLY IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, BUT REALLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND I KNOW THE FAIR MARKET RENT OVER JUST THE LAST SIX YEARS HAS GONE UP IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, OVER 42%.

I MEAN, THAT'S SIGNIFICANT.

WHOSE WAGES HAVE GONE UP 42%, YOU KNOW, IN THE LAST FEW YEARS?

SO, YOU KNOW, IF SOMEBODY WAS ON THE VERGE JUST BARELY MAKING IT SIX YEARS AGO, WELL, IF YOUR RENT WENT UP BY 42%, YOU'VE I MEAN, CLEARLY THERE'S SOME, YOU KNOW, IS IT RENT?

IS IT FOOD?

YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE YOU, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S MISSING FROM THE EQUATION THAT YOU'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO PAY FOR?

AND MANY TIMES IT ENDS UP BEING, YOU KNOW, "I CAN NO LONGER AFFORD THE PLACE THAT I'M LIVING IN.

AND SO BECAUSE I GOT TO FEED MY KIDS, RIGHT, YOU KNOW, I GOT TO FEED MY FAMILY SO."

THOMPSON: AND IN MANY CASES PEOPLE ARE WORKING.

BUT AS YOU REFERENCED, THEY JUST MAYBE JUST DON'T MAKE ENOUGH.

DR.

ROWELL: AND I WAS GOING TO ADD THE BENEFITS CLIFF IS ANOTHER REALLY SERIOUS ISSUE, RIGHT?

SO THAT FOLKS ARE AFRAID TO EARN TOO MUCH BECAUSE THEN THEY LOSE A LOT OF THEIR BENEFITS, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH CARE AND CHILD CARE.

AND WE HAVE A REALLY SERIOUS ISSUE WITH THAT IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND I KNOW THAT THERE'S SOME LEGISLATION BEING LOOKED AT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

FINN: A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE IF THEY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HOMELESSNESS, WHAT THEY ACTUALLY KNOW IS A STEREOTYPE LIKE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THESE ARE THE ACTUAL CAUSES OF HOMELESSNESS: ISSUES WITH BENEFITS, ISSUES WITH COST OF HOUSING.

FOR US, MOST HOMELESS PEOPLE ARE NOT MENTALLY ILL.

MOST DO NOT HAVE A SUBSTANCE ABUSE ISSUE.

IT IS ECONOMIC ISSUES THAT HAVE LED TO THEM BEING HOMELESS.

THOMPSON: AND IT CAN COME ON QUICK, IT SOUNDS LIKE.

BAILEY: AND IT'S REALLY ALSO ABOUT LIVABLE WAGES.

YOU KNOW?

IF, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT MONTGOMERY COUNTY, WHAT A LIVABLE WAGE IS FOR A TWO BEDROOM, YOU'RE TALKING 20, 21 BUCKS AN HOUR.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PRETTY DECENT PAYING JOB THAT'S GOING TO PAY $21, $22 AN HOUR.

IT'S, YOU KNOW, MINIMUM WAGE DEFINITELY IS NOT GOING TO CUT THAT.

THOMPSON: LET'S DEFINE THE TERM THAT I'VE MENTIONED: CONTINUUM OF CARE.

WHAT IS THAT?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

FINN: WELL, THE CONTINUUM OF CARE IS A PROGRAM FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT THAT'S THE LARGEST FUNDING STREAM TO HELP HOMELESS PEOPLE.

SO THAT'S ONE SORT OF USE OF THE TERM CONTINUUM OF CARE.

BUT IN ORDER FOR COMMUNITIES TO TAP INTO THAT FUNDING, THEY HAVE TO SORT OF ORGANIZE THEMSELVES IN A CERTAIN WAY.

AND THAT ORGANIZATION IN A LOCAL COMMUNITY IS ALSO REFERRED TO AS A CONTINUUM OF CARE.

SO THERE'S A MONTGOMERY COUNTY CONTINUUM.

THERE'S A HAMILTON COUNTY CONTINUUM.

THERE ARE NINE OF THOSE JUST IN THE STATE OF OHIO.

THOMPSON: WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY?

BAILEY: YOU KNOW, OUR CONTINUUM OF CARE HAS LOTS OF SERVICES.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT KEVIN JUST TALKED ABOUT WAS DIVERSION, YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S AN IMPORTANT PIECE.

AND HE'S EXACTLY RIGHT, THERE'S REALLY, YOU KNOW, LITTLE FUNDING FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR DIVERSION.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE EMPHASES THAT WE STARTED TO FOCUS ON THIS LAST YEAR WAS DIVERSION EFFORTS, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, AS PEOPLE ARE APPROACHING SHELTERS OR REALLY STRUGGLING, YOU KNOW, METHODS, HOUSING FOCUSED PROBLEM SOLVING WITH THESE FOLKS AND TRYING TO SEE WHAT WE CAN'T DO SO THAT WE CAN DO EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN SO THEY DON'T ACTUALLY ENTER SHELTERS.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DID IS, YOU KNOW, WE HAD SOME EXTENSIVE TRAINING FOR ALL OF OUR COMMUNITY PROVIDERS TO TRY TO -- THAT WAS ONE -- THAT WAS ANOTHER STEP THAT WE TOOK TO TRY TO HELP, YOU KNOW, BEFORE THEY ACTUALLY ENTERED SHELTERS OR ENTERED HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO TRY TO ACTIVELY HELP THEM, YOU KNOW, PREVENT THAT?

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, WE HAVE OUR SHELTERS, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE OUR FAMILY AND WOMEN AND FAMILY SHELTER.

WE HAVE OUR MEN'S SHELTER, WE HAVE YOUTH SHELTERS, AND WE ALSO HAVE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS.

WE ALSO HAVE LOTS OF DIFFERENT HOUSING THAT'S IN PLACE AND CASE MANAGEMENT SERVICES, REALLY TO TRY TO HELP FOLKS THAT ARE STRUGGLING WITH BARRIERS, ADDICTIONS, WHATEVER THE CASE MIGHT BE, TO TRY TO HELP THEM, YOU KNOW, PROBLEM SOLVE AND FIND EMPLOYMENT, AND FIND THEIR WAY, YOU KNOW, TO A SAFE PLACE TO LIVE.

THOMPSON: KEVIN, WE'LL SAVE THE DATA ANALYTICS PROGRAM INNOVATIVE FOR A LITTLE BIT LATER.

BUT WHAT SERVICES ARE PROVIDED IN HAMILTON COUNTY?

FINN: WELL, WHERE MOST OF THE FUNDING GOES IS TO WHAT'S CALLED SUPPORTIVE HOUSING.

SO THOSE ARE HOUSING PROGRAMS, LARGELY, THAT GET PEOPLE BACK INTO HOUSING AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE STREET OR IN A SHELTER, TYPICALLY.

SO PERMANENT SUPPORTIVE HOUSING PROGRAMS, WHICH ARE FOR CHRONICALLY HOMELESS AND DISABLED PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

THERE'S ALSO SOMETHING CALLED RAPID REHOUSING, WHICH IS NOT TARGETED AT PEOPLE WHO ARE DISABLED, MORE TOWARD PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS PURELY FOR ECONOMIC REASONS.

SO THOSE PROGRAMS ARE OUT THERE, AND THEY DO A GREAT JOB OF HELPING PEOPLE GET OUT OF HOMELESSNESS.

THERE'S A SERIOUS CAPACITY ISSUE, THOUGH, WHERE WE'RE ONLY ABLE TO OFFER AN OPENING IN ONE OF THOSE PROGRAMS TO ABOUT A THIRD OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, WHICH MEANS TWO THIRDS DON'T RECEIVE THOSE SORTS OF ASSISTANCE.

THOMPSON: NOW MIGHT BE A GOOD TIME TO MENTION THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S PIVOT IN CONTINUUM OF CARE.

SO WE HAD HEARD ABOUT HOUSING FIRST, THE STRATEGY GETTING SOMEBODY HOUSED AND THEN HELPING THEM WITH OTHER SERVICES LIKE MENTAL ILLNESS OR DRUG ADDICTION.

AND BACK IN NOVEMBER, THE GOVERNMENT SAID, "WELL, WE WANT TO CHANGE THIS AND JUST LET'S ADDRESS MENTAL ILLNESS AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE FIRST."

I KNOW THIS IS KIND OF BEING HELD UP IN THE COURTS.

HOW HAS THIS, OR THE THREAT OF THIS, AFFECTED HOW YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS AND FUNDING?

PATRICK?

BAILEY: I MEAN, I THINK SEVERAL WAYS.

I MEAN, I THINK ONE OF THE CONCERNS IS THAT IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, WE HAVE 26 DIFFERENT PROGRAMS THAT ARE FUNDED BY HUD.

AND THE WAY OURS ARE SET UP IS THEY'RE STAGGERED.

SO THEY START AND STOP AT STAGGERED TIMES.

SO WE HAVE PROGRAMS THAT START IN FEBRUARY, MARCH, APRIL, MAY, JUNE.

WELL, IF THIS FUNDING GETS DELAYED, IT'S GOING TO CAUSE, YOU KNOW, ISSUES WITH PROVIDERS GETTING FUNDS IN THE DOOR TO OPERATE THEIR PROGRAMS.

I THINK ANOTHER ONE OF THE CHALLENGES, YOU KNOW, THAT WITH THIS, WHAT HUD HAS SIGNALED THROUGH THE NOTICE OF FUNDING OPPORTUNITY IS THEIR EMPHASIS ON 30%.

THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING THAT CONTINUUM OF CARE CAN ONLY HAVE 30% OF THEIR FUNDING IN PERMANENT HOUSING.

MONTGOMERY COUNTY CURRENTLY HAS 87%.

FINN: WE'RE AT 94%.

BAILEY: SO AND I THINK I'VE HEARD ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IT'S LIKE CLOSE TO 90%.

SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE PERMANENT HOUSING FROM 87 OR 90% AND DROP IT DOWN TO 30%, THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO TRANSITION ALL OF THESE FOLKS INTO TRANSITIONAL HOUSING OR OTHER TYPES OF HOUSING PROJECTS.

AND AGAIN, THE PERMANENT HOUSING IS, LIKE THE NAME SAYS, IT'S PERMANENT.

IT'S LONG TERM.

WHERE TRANSITIONAL IS ONLY FOR LIKE TWO YEARS.

SO IT CREATES KIND OF A QUANDARY.

FOLKS, I THINK, ALL THE CONTINUUM OF CARE ARE SCURRYING AROUND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS THAT WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO.

AND IF THIS LAWSUIT DOES GO THROUGH HOW WE'RE GOING TO ORGANIZE OUR COMMUNITY RESOURCES TO BEST HELP FOLKS THAT ARE IN NEED?

THOMPSON: LET'S TALK ABOUT ANOTHER CHALLENGE: CRIMINALIZING HOMELESSNESS BY SAYING YOU CAN'T SLEEP IN PUBLIC PLACES OUTSIDE.

KATHY, WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN IN SOUTHWEST OHIO WHEN IT COMES TO THIS?

DR.

ROWELL: YEAH, AND THIS STARTED A WHILE AGO WHEN WE STARTED CRIMINALIZING SLEEPING ON PARK BENCHES.

AND THEN WE SAW THE RECENT SUPREME COURT CASE.

I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SOUTHERN OHIO, AND IT'S ACTUALLY EVERYWHERE, IS THAT WE'VE SEEN CITIES BEGIN WHAT I CALL CLOSING ENCAMPMENTS.

AND WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING, I KNOW IN DAYTON I'VE HAD, YOU KNOW, SOME CONCERNS ABOUT IT, IS THAT IT INVOLVES LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOW UP, SOMETIMES WITHOUT MUCH NOTICE, AND THEY SHOW UP WITH BULLDOZERS AND FOLKS LOSE EVERYTHING.

AND I UNDERSTAND PEOPLE'S CONCERNS ABOUT ENCAMPMENTS, BUT THERE'S A WAY TO DO IT HUMANELY AND A WAY NOT TO.

AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS WE CLOSE AN ENCAMPMENT, WHERE DO THEY GO?

RIGHT?

THE SHELTERS ARE FULL, AND SOME OF THESE FOLKS HAD BURNED BRIDGES AT THE LOCAL SHELTER, SO THERE'S NO PLACE FOR THEM TO GO.

AND WE'RE ALSO INCREASINGLY SEEING, I CALL IT THE COMPETITION OF COUNTIES NOW, WHERE COUNTIES ARE SAYING, "IF YOU'RE NOT FROM OUR COUNTY, WE WON'T HELP YOU."

THOMPSON: WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING LEMONADE OUT OF LEMONS, HERE'S SOMETHING POSITIVE THAT CAME OUT OF A COMMUNITY THAT CRIMINALIZED HOMELESSNESS.

THAT'S LICKING COUNTY HERE IN OHIO, AS AMY RIEGEL EXPLAINS.

RIEGEL: THERE WAS A HOUSING COURT THAT WAS ESTABLISHED, AND THE HOUSING COURT ACTUALLY SEES ANY INDIVIDUAL WHO'S EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS, WHO IS INTERACTING WITH THE POLICE ON ANY MISDEMEANOR OR FELONY CHARGE.

AND THEY GO TO THE HOUSING COURT AND THE HOME COURT, THEY HELP THEM TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THEIR HOUSING OPPORTUNITIES ARE GOING TO BE OR COULD BE.

THOMPSON: IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO FIND OUT HOW THAT CONTINUES TO WORK.

KEVIN, LET'S TALK ABOUT ANOTHER INNOVATIVE IDEA: DATA ANALYTICS, I THINK IT'S CALLED THE HOUSING STABILITY COLLABORATIVE IN CINCINNATI.

WHERE DID YOU GET THE IDEA?

WHAT IS IT AND HOW IS IT WORKING?

FINN: THE IDEA IS TO USE PREDICTIVE DATA ANALYTICS, TO USE DATA FROM COMMUNITY PARTNERS IN THE AREA TO IDENTIFY -- DATA THAT HAS SOME SORT OF PREDICTIVE VALUE OF WHO'S SITUATION HAS GONE DOWNHILL KIND OF THING, AND THEN USE PREDICTIVE DATA ANALYTICS TO IDENTIFY THOSE HOUSEHOLDS BY NAME WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO GET AN EVICTION NOTICE.

SO THAT'S THE FIRST PART OF THE PROJECT.

THE SECOND PART IS REACHING OUT TO THOSE FAMILIES AND PROACTIVELY OFFERING THEM SERVICES, WITH THE GOAL BEING THEY NEVER GET THE EVICTION NOTICE.

SO WE RECEIVED SORT OF START UP FUNDING FROM THE CITY OF CINCINNATI TO TRY THIS WITH FAMILIES WHO ARE RESIDENTS OF THE CITY OF CINCINNATI.

IT WENT LIVE IN JULY OF 2024.

M AND WHAT WE'RE FINDING IS IT'S ABOUT 97% EFFECTIVE IN KEEPING FAMILIES FROM EVER LOSING THEIR HOUSING, AND AT A COST OF ABOUT $3,800 PER FAMILY.

NOW, THE COST OF SERVING THAT SAME FAMILY, IF THEY BECOME HOMELESS AND COME INTO THE SYSTEM IS $22,500.

SO WE ARE LITERALLY HELPING SIX FAMILIES FOR THE COST OF ONE BY USING THIS INNOVATIVE HOMELESSNESS PREVENTION MODEL.

WHICH I ALWAYS JUST HAVE TO MENTION, AGAIN, GOVERNMENT SOURCES, PRIMARILY FEDERAL, DO NOT FUND PREVENTION.

SO THAT IS THE TYPE OF INTERVENTION THAT IF WE COULD DO MORE OF IT, WE COULD SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE HOMELESSNESS, IF THERE WERE RESOURCES TO SUPPORT THAT SORT OF THING.

OTHER THAN THE CITY OF CINCINNATI AND A FEW OTHERS, THERE'S NOT BEEN A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR THAT SORT OF THING YET.

THOMPSON: AND YOU WERE OUT FUNDRAISING.

AND WHAT DOES THIS LOOK LIKE FOR THIS YEAR AND FUTURE YEARS?

FINN: THE CITY OF CINCINNATI IS CURRENTLY FUNDING THAT EFFORT THROUGH THE END OF 2026.

WE'RE HOPING TO EXTEND IT THROUGH THE END OF 2027.

BUT WE'RE IN THE EARLY STAGES OF A FUNDRAISING CAMPAIGN TO TRY TO SECURE MORE RESOURCES FOR THAT.

TO BE HONEST, I FEEL LIKE WE'VE CAUGHT LIGHTNING IN A BOTTLE, LIKE, WE KNOW HOW TO REDUCE HOMELESSNESS.

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

ALMOST EVERY HOMELESS PERSON I'VE EVER MET AT ONE POINT HAD HOUSING.

HOW ABOUT WE JUST KEEP THEM IN IT AND WE CAN DO THAT AND ACHIEVE BETTER OUTCOMES AT A SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER COST, BUT IT TAKES RESOURCES TO DO THAT.

THOMPSON: PATRICK, I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS PROGRAM.

HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT DOING IT IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY?

BAILEY: WE HAVE OUR SYSTEM PERFORMANCE EVALUATION COMMITTEE THAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN LOOKING AT DATA ANALYTICS.

THEY'VE BEEN WORKING WITH A PROFESSOR AT UD, AND HE'S BEEN ENGAGING HIS STUDENTS AND TRYING TO LOOK AT THE DATA ANALYTICS TO KIND OF HELP EXAMINE CHANGES IN THE NUMBER OF -- CHANGES IN FOLKS' CIRCUMSTANCES IN THE GREATER DAYTON AREA.

SO THEY'VE KIND OF STARTED, I WOULD SAY, ON THE INITIAL STAGES OF LOOKING INTO THAT.

WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING, THOUGH, IS WE'RE CURRENTLY WORKING ON A STRATEGIC PLAN, AND A PART OF THAT STRATEGIC PLAN IS REALLY TRYING TO HELP MOVE, LOOKING AT 2 TO 3 INITIATIVES THAT WOULD HELP MOVE THE NEEDLE IN OUR COMMUNITY.

AND WE'VE, AS A PART OF THAT STRATEGIC PLANNING PROCESS, HAVE BEEN USING QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS TO TRY TO REALLY GET THE BEST BANG FOR OUR BUCK, BECAUSE WE ARE REALLY, AGAIN, WE WANT TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

WE WANT TO SEE THOSE NUMBERS DROP YEAR BY YEAR BY YEAR.

AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY STRATEGIC, VERY CALCULATIVE.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL THE TYPES OF RESOURCES THAT YOU CAN IN ORDER TO TRY TO HELP THAT.

YOU JUST CAN'T -- UM, YOU NEED TO BE VERY THOUGHTFUL.

THOMPSON: LET ME THROW OUT SOME IDEAS HERE AS WE THINK BIG PICTURE IN OHIO.

SO AMY RIEGEL THAT WE HEARD FROM EARLIER HAS SAID THAT OTHER STATES, MINNESOTA AND MICHIGAN, ARE REQUIRING THE DEVELOPERS WHO ARE BUILDING APARTMENTS TO HAVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF UNITS FOR LOW INCOME, LIKE, MAKING THEM DO THAT.

SHE SAYS OHIO IS KIND OF BEHIND.

SO THERE'S THAT IDEA.

TINY HOUSES.

PATRICK, I KNOW YOU WERE RECENTLY QUOTED IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT AN EFFORT IN DAYTON.

THERE'S ALSO ONE IN CLERMONT COUNTY.

WHAT ABOUT THOSE SOLUTIONS, AND ARE THERE OTHERS?

BAILEY: I MEAN, I CAN SPEAK TO THE TINY HOMES.

I THINK TINY HOMES, THE ONE POSITIVE THING ABOUT THEM IS THEY ARE CHEAPER TO BUILD BECAUSE THEY'RE SMALLER UNITS.

WE'VE GOT A PROVIDER IN OUR COMMUNITY THAT'S IN THE PLANNING STAGES FOR BEACON PLACE, WHICH WOULD BE A 40 UNIT AFFORDABLE HOUSING, PERMANENT HOUSING SPOT.

THE UNITS ARE LIKE 500 SQUARE FEET.

BUT THEY'RE TRYING TO GET THEIR FUNDING STACK, YOU KNOW, IN PLACE IN ORDER TO TRY TO MOVE FORWARD WITH IT.

SO THAT'S -- AND THE ONE THING THAT'S KIND OF COOL ABOUT THAT IS IT'S DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY FOR FOLKS THAT ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

IT'S ALSO A COMMUNITY CENTER THAT WOULD BE A PART OF IT.

AND THE PLAN IS ALSO TO HAVE CASE MANAGEMENT AS WELL.

SO IT'S WRAPAROUND SERVICES THAT HELP THOSE FOLKS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

THOMPSON: AS WE WRAP OUT THE INTERVIEW, I WANTED TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE FUTURE OF THE UNHOUSED OR LOCAL CONTINUUMS OF CARE AND ALSO WHAT GIVES YOU HOPE.

KEVIN?

FINN: PREVENTION, PREVENTION, PREVENTION TO ME, THAT'S THE FUTURE BECAUSE IT SAVES PEOPLE SO MUCH TRAUMA.

THERE IS SO MUCH TRAUMA THAT PEOPLE EXPERIENCE ON THEIR WAY TOWARD LITERAL HOMELESSNESS.

SO NOT ONLY CAN WE PREVENT PEOPLE FROM BECOMING HOMELESS AT A LOWER COST AND WITH BETTER OUTCOMES, BUT WE SAVE PEOPLE ALL THAT TRAUMA, WHICH HAS LONG TERM IMPACTS FOR THEM INTO THE FUTURE.

SO MY HOPE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE RESOURCES THAT ARE ALREADY AVAILABLE.

I MEAN, WE GET OVER $30 MILLION FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO FUND HOMELESS SERVICES IN HAMILTON COUNTY.

WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE ANY OF IT FOR PREVENTION.

BUT IF WE COULD JUST MOVE A LITTLE BIT OF THAT TO PREVENTION, WE COULD MAKE A MEANINGFUL IMPACT.

SO I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT IN THE FUTURE, LIKE WE'RE STARTING A -- WE'RE DOING TWO STUDIES ON OUR PREVENTION PROGRAMS WITH NOTRE DAME UNIVERSITY RIGHT NOW.

AND WE'RE HOPING THAT WITH THAT SORT OF DOCUMENTATION OF HOW WELL PREVENTION WORKS, THAT IN THE FUTURE WE'LL BE ABLE TO SHIFT RESOURCES IN THAT DIRECTION.

THOMPSON: KATHY?

DR.

ROWELL: I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE THAT IT'S PREVENTION.

AND I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THE RIGHT TO COUNSEL IN EVICTION COURT.

ULTIMATELY, WHAT GIVES ME HOPE FOR ACTUALLY THE PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCE IT THEMSELVES, THEY OFTEN COME BACK AND DO WORK.

SOME OF MY VERY BEST STUDENTS OVER THE YEARS WERE UNHOUSED FOLKS.

IN FACT, I RAN INTO ONE THE OTHER DAY AND ONE OF THEM HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, I HAVE A FORMER STUDENT WHO WORKS IN CITY GOVERNMENT NOW TO TRY TO GO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

SO I THINK WE FORGET THAT THERE ARE FOLKS THAT ONCE THEY GET HOUSING AND THEY HAVE STABILITY IN THEIR LIVES, THEY'RE ABLE TO DO SOME REALLY GREAT THINGS IN OUR COMMUNITY.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE MORE TIME AND REALLY LISTEN TO THEIR IDEAS.

THOMPSON: PATRICK?

BAILEY: I AGREE, PREVENTION IS KEY.

IT IS MUCH CHEAPER THAN THE ALTERNATIVE.

I ALSO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPORTANT.

I THINK PARTNERSHIPS ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

I THINK WHEN YOU GATHER A GROUP OF FOLKS THAT ARE COMMITTED AROUND THE TABLE, WE LOOK OUTSIDE OF OUR SYSTEMS, WE LOOK AT THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, WE LOOK AT THE MENTAL HEALTH, WE LOOK AT ALL THE OTHER SYSTEMS THAT HAVE, YOU KNOW, AGING SYSTEM.

AND WE TRY TO LOOK AT THINGS AND TRY TO CREATIVELY PROBLEM SOLVE THIS ISSUE TOGETHER THAT THERE'S REAL STRENGTH IN THAT.

THERE'S REAL OPPORTUNITY.

THERE'S REAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO MAKE A BIG DENT IN THE FUTURE.

SO.

THOMPSON: WELL, THERE'S JUST SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT.

I KNOW WE ONLY SCRATCHED THE SURFACE, BUT FOR TIME, WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT HERE AND FOLLOW UP.

THANKS TO SOCIOLOGIST AND AUTHOR KATHY ROWELL, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF HUMAN SERVICES AND PLANNING WITH MONTGOMERY COUNTY, PATRICK BAILEY; AND CEO OF STRATEGIES TO END HOMELESSNESS, KEVIN FINN.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU.

ALL: THANK YOU.

THOMPSON: A BIG PROBLEM REQUIRES BIG IDEAS.

IT'S TIME FOR TAKEAWAYS AND WE WELCOME MULTIMEDIA JOURNALIST EMIKO MOORE AND HERNZ LAGUERRE, JR.

HEY, GUYS.

MOORE: HELLO.

LAGUERRE: GOOD TO BE HERE.

THOMPSON: EMIKO, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE CONVERSATION?

MOORE: WELL, I FOUND IT INTERESTING ALL THREE EXPERTS AGREED THAT THE BEST PREVENTION IS TO KEEP PEOPLE HOUSED.

AND WHEN KEVIN FINN TALKED ABOUT PREVENTION SAVES TRAUMA, YOU DON'T THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH TRAUMA IS INVOLVED IN HOMELESSNESS, ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNG CHILDREN.

YOU KNOW, HE TALKED ABOUT A STUDENT WHO CHANGES A SCHOOL YEAR 5 TO 6 TIMES IN A YEAR, AND THE IMPACT THAT WOULD HAVE ON THEIR ACADEMIC SUCCESS AND THEIR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AS WELL.

OR A 12 YEAR OLD CHILD WHOSE DREAM IS TO HAVE A BED OR TO SLEEP IN A BED.

SO YOU WONDER WHAT KIND OF IMPACT THAT HAS ON THEIR LIVES.

LAGUERRE: AND KEVIN FINN AND I, WE HAD THAT CONVERSATION ABOUT THAT IMPACT DURING THE DATA ANALYTICS EPISODE IN SEASON ONE.

AND I FIND IT INCREDIBLE THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A COST ADVANTAGE TO BEING PROACTIVE, RIGHT?

CONSIDER THIS $3,600 TO HELP A FAMILY STAY IN THEIR HOME, AS OPPOSED TO $20,000 PLUS AFTER THEY'RE HOMELESS.

TO ME, IT SOUNDS LIKE A NO BRAINER.

THOMPSON: WELL, PATRICK BAILEY WAS TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING PARTNERSHIPS.

AND AFTER OUR INTERVIEW ENDED, CAMERAS WERE OFF, KEVIN AND PATRICK STARTED TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY COULD HELP ONE ANOTHER WHEN IT CAME TO DATA ANALYTICS, WITH KEVIN OFFERING HIS DATA ANALYSTS AND HIS DATA SYSTEM.

AND SO THAT'LL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THAT DEVELOPS.

MOORE: AND TO ME, IT'S REALLY EXCITING TO SEE WHERE EXPERTS IN THE SAME FIELD SHARE WHAT WORKS FOR THEM IN THEIR CITIES.

WE HAVE A LOT TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER.

LAGUERRE: YEAH, I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS WE CAN LEARN TOO IS, YOU KNOW, DISPELLING SOME MISNOMERS AND MISCONCEPTIONS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTIONS WITH HOMELESSNESS IS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS ARE, YOU KNOW, DEALING WITH DRUG AND ALCOHOL ABUSE.

KEVIN SAID FROM HIS OWN EXPERIENCE THAT MAJORITY OF PEOPLE HE MEETS WHO ARE HOMELESS DON'T DEAL WITH ALCOHOL AND DRUG ABUSE.

THEY DEAL WITH THE ECONOMIC ISSUE, WHICH IS WHY THEY'RE HOMELESS.

AND THE NATIONAL COALITION OF THE HOMELESS SAYS ABOUT ONE THIRD OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS FACE SUBSTANCE ABUSE, WHICH BACKS UP KEVIN'S CLAIM.

AND, YOU KNOW, THOSE SAME FOLKS NORMALLY TURN TO DRUGS AND ALCOHOL IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THE STRESS OF BEING HOMELESS.

SO IT'S ALMOST LIKE A CATCH 22 THERE, RIGHT?

AND I THINK THAT ADDS TO THE WHOLE TREATMENT FIRST VERSUS HOUSING FIRST DEBATE.

AND THERE SURELY NEEDS TO BE MORE RESEARCH TO SEE WHICH SOLUTION HAS THE GREATEST IMPACT.

THOMPSON: WELL, THERE WERE JUST SO MANY TOPICS AND SOLUTIONS THAT WE WEREN'T ABLE TO GET TO IN THE DISCUSSION.

MOORE: SOUNDS LIKE WE MIGHT NEED ANOTHER PROGRAM OR PANEL FOR THIS.

LAGUERRE: FOR SURE.

THOMPSON: GOOD IDEA.

THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS, GUYS.

THAT'S OUR SHOW.

WE HOPE TODAY'S CONVERSATION GAVE YOU A BETTER SENSE OF OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY'S RESPONSES TO HELP OUR UNHOUSED NEIGHBORS AND HOW FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL SUPPORT PLAYS A ROLE IN THOSE EFFORTS.

WE ALSO HOPE YOU'LL KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING AT HOME AND IN YOUR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS AROUND THIS ISSUE.

IF YOU WANT TO SOUND OFF ON THIS ISSUE OR ANY SOLUTION WE COVER, WE'D LOVE TO HEAR IT.

YOU CAN DO THAT BY SCANNING THE QR CODE ON YOUR SCREEN AND FILLING OUT A FEEDBACK FORM.

UNTIL NEXT TIME, FOR HERNZ LAGUERRE, JR.

AND EMIKO MOORE, I'M ANN THOMPSON.

WE'LL BE BACK WITH MORE SOLUTIONS SOON.

TAKE CARE.