♪♪ Meaningful communication is at the root of every healthy relationship.

Joining us today, in partnership with the American Leadership Forum, are Jennifer Edwards and Katie McCleary, authors of Bridge The Gap, a book that will help us better understand communication traps and what to do about them.

Katie, tell us, what is it about communications that is so difficult for us, as humans, to wrap our arms around?

Well, uh, it feels like we've gone through kind of the ringer in the past couple of years with pandemic, political polarization, masks, mandates, uh, mandates and I mean- Did you ever think, Jennifer, that you would have your friends and family fighting over a piece of cloth?

Un... unconceivable, and that's what happened.

Right.

There are 8 billion people on the planet.

There are five generations that go to work, and we all do not have the same communication approaches, leadership, management styles or work ethic.

It is different out there, Scott, and we're getting totally messed up.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

Tell, uh, tell me, when you, uh, authored- When you both offered- authored Bridge the Gap, what was it that you were attempting to solve?

Great question.

Um, so, we love this prop.

It's one of those old-fashioned finger traps, and what we had been noticing in our own lives and the lives of just everyone in different communities is that many relationships were feeling like being stuck in that finger trap- tight, polarized, fractionalized, hurting, confused, miscommunication abundant.

And what we both said to each other, because we're very different, is we need to bring skills into the world that help people escape the finger trap, because they're out there and no one wants to be in them.

And so, we wrote this book really for that intention.

Hmm.

And you wrote it for that intention, but if you were, uh- In terms of who was your intended target audience, um, who did you see out there that was having the type of problem that this book and its message was really going to address?

Everyday professionals.

So many books are written for leaders and managers, but we could all be leaders in our relationship.

We all come to the table and how we show up matters, and so we wanted to write it for everyday people working in a variety of industries that really say, "How can I look in the mirror and show up better for my team, my colleague, and for our shared goal?"

and "What are the skills that I can use to understand another better?"

And then, it all comes down to how we communicate through it, and we feel like we offer a lot of tips, tricks and strategies that are practical and tactful.

Mmhmm.

Jennifer, what was going on?

Uh, and... and this is really for you both, but I'll...

I'll start with you, Jennifer.

What was going on in your life at the time, when you and Katie got together and decided to author this book that helped inform your process and the objectives of your work?

Well, if we start at the beginning, I never even wanted to meet Katie.

We'd been introduced.

Really?

[Jennifer] No!

[Katie] No, we did not want to be- We didn't want to be in connection with each other.

[Jennifer] We'd been introduced by this mutual friend who said, "You've got to meet her."

And, um, I'm like, uh, I don't need another friend.

What am I going to do?

But she'd said, "Hey, you got to meet this amazing woman.

Look, she's brilliant.

She's founded this amazing nonprofit, 916 Ink, that changes kids' literacy lives.

And she's, um, just this brilliant creative and writer, and she is a Buddhist and a liberal."

And I'm like, uh, these labels are not things I'm relating to.

[Scott] And just for the... just for the record, you're the conservative.

She's the liberal.

[Jennifer] Correct.

Yeah.

[Katie] Yup.

[Jennifer] And yet, somehow, my intuition paid off, and I showed up at this restaurant and got to meet this woman and we were in the middle of really polarizing times.

You want to talk about that?

[Katie] Yeah, really polarizing times, right?

Like, I am riled up.

I'm an activist.

I'm on social media.

I- [Jennifer] I remember this.

[Katie] My mouth is powerful and strong and it says what it wants to say, and that can be really off-putting to people.

It is disconnective.

So I- In that moment, I...

I was rejecting her.

I had heard equal things, "amazing, smart, insanely successful, high energy," and... and I was just like, OK, great.

And she... she seemingly has nothing in common with me.

And so, the world around us, that is being echoed as well.

[Jennifer] Mmhmm.

[Katie] And so, we decided to be curious with one another.

We did what... what each of us do professionally.

Let's show up to this meeting and focus our attention and presence on that other person.

And then, it was like, OK, there's something here.

And what is it about our ability to have really tough conversations?

[Jennifer] Really tough.

[Katie] Really tough conversations.

And they still happen, Scott, week by week.

And so, what are the tools?

What is the mindset?

What is the strategy to connect better when it's easy in this world to just give up... [Jennifer] Cancel another.

[Katie] ...to quiet quit, to be like, I'm just going to keep my head down in my job and when I have to show up at that meeting with that person, I'll roll my eyes and eat some metaphorical popcorn and wait them out.

Like, that's what's happening in the world, and it was totally reflective in our relationship as well.

So, we made an intentional choice to connect.

Wow.

Jennifer, what is at the root of what we humans need in our communications, uh, you know, whether we're the communicator or we're on the receiving end, to really feel like we're being heard and understood?

Oh, Scott, that's such a great question.

So, our brains and our minds are meaning making machines, and we all want to have an identity in the world.

We want to be valued, we want to be understood, and we want to be accepted- some basic emotional needs- that, when they're not met, we as humans feel lost at a deep level.

Like, we're like, where are we?

Why do I matter?

And at the root of communication, it comes down to communication gets tight and tense when those needs aren't met.

And so, one of the things that we are really clear and committed to is that if we can live and change our dynamic by bringing curiosity as the antidote to this judgment we can sit in, because we are really judgey people, we can transform relationships, we can collaborate better, and we can perform, really, with more joy and more success.

You know, by the way, I really do love the, uh, finger trap.

Yeah.

And Katie, uh, I had the privilege of... of recently hearing you deliver, uh, a speech and you talked about how our most natural tendency as humans is to move apart when, um, we're in a difficult conversation or we're not feeling the things that Jennifer just referenced, but your point was- with the finger trap, is that the only way to get released is... is to come together.

Right?

[Katie] Yep.

[Scott] How is it that, um, you tea- uh, you both, uh, teach people through this book and through your work how to have the sense of security and mindfulness to do exactly that?

So, how you show up matters, and you have an intentional choice every single time to take a moment and a beat to look in the mirror.

We actually say go to the bathroom before the conversation, before the meeting, whatever it is, and wash your hands in cold water, because your body is probably sweating, freaking out, pumping you full of chemicals that are hijacking you from being who you want to be.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Katie] Wash your hands in cold water and coach yourself in the mirror.

Like, how do I want to show up?

What is the best possible outcome?

And all those little chattery voices, the narrative, the thoughts, the stories- right?

- we have to choose to suspend them.

And we can do it, Scott.

I mean, like, do you go to the movies, Jennifer?

You do, right?

[Jennifer] I do, and when I'm watching a movie, do I know it's not real?

[Katie] You do!

[Jennifer] But do I cry?

[Katie] We suspend ourselves all the time.

We do.

And we can- if we can intentionally and mindfully learn code-switching, be... be... be- [Scott] Define that.

Uh, what does that mean?

[Katie] Yeah.

That's great.

Do you want to define code-switching?

[Jennifer] No, go for it.

You're on a roll.

[Katie] OK.

So, code-switching is I'm one way at home with my friends.

I'm one way at- with my grandpa.

I'm one way at work.

I'm one way here and there.

Like, we are multifaceted, kaleidoscope-esque people.

And when we begin to really understand ourselves, the stories we tell ourselves when we're under pressure and doubt, the ways in which we can be in one space and another space, we can begin to maneuver our energy to be what's needed in that moment and focus our attention on another person who- guess what?

- has the same full, immense, pressure-based life... [Jennifer] Yeah, they do.

[Katie] ...as yourself.

[Scott] Hmm.

[Jennifer] You know, Scott, we oftentimes actually hear, "Well, I'm not going to code-switch.

I'm just who I am every time."

[Scott] Otherwise, I'm not authentic, right?

[Jennifer] Correct, yeah!

And we really challenge you to say- Uh, we're not asking you to be inauthentic.

We're asking you to be, in honor and dignity of the person in front of you, the most appropriate person you can be in that moment, the most responsible person you can be in that moment.

And there is always space in between to make a choice about how you're going to show up.

[Scott] Well, Jennifer, let's stay with that for a second, because one of the... the... the concepts that you introduce in the book is something that you call here, "psychological flexibility."

What is that, and what makes it so central to the work that you all are doing?

[Jennifer] Yeah.

We talk a lot about psychological safety and the critical nature it plays in running healthy organizations, homes, families, and communities.

And what we focus on bringing in, in addition to that, is a concept called "psychological flexibility."

And what that is, at its nugget, is genuine curiosity- walking in and being willing to suspend the "me," the strong need to be seen, and the willingness, instead, to show up and say, "Huh, what don't I know I don't know?"

and to really be in a room to learn and grow, not to show off.

And so, that is why psychological flexibility, when researched- And there's a study- what year was it?

20... [Katie] It was like 2018, 2017.

[Jennifer] ...that said it's the key component to healthy relationships.

The key component.

One person has to engage with it.

[Scott] So, I want to connect that, Katie, to something you said a few minutes ago talking about the quote, unquote "kaleidoscope."

And you use, um, that metaphor in, uh, the... the book itself.

Uh, connect being psychologically flexible to, um, this concept of the kaleidoscope and how, uh, thinking- uh, using that metaphor can be helpful in positioning yourself to be much more effective in your communications.

[Katie] Awesome.

So, you are a kaleidoscope.

I'm a kaleidoscope.

She's a kaleidoscope.

And inside of it, we have little jewels and we have big jewels.

The big jewels are things like your lived experiences, your ethnicity and race, your class, your gender and sexual expression, your spirituality- right?

- your drive and desire and purpose.

Then, we have all these little rocks, things that impact us, like, who do we surround ourselves by?

What are we trying to achieve?

Whenever we're in that kaleidoscope, these things don't change.

They're always a part of us.

But when we look through the kaleidoscope and we make even a small shift, that's psychological flexibility- a small shift.

Those rocks, those jewels tumble in a different way, and they create a different pattern.

So much, we're tunnel-visioned in our pressure cooker world and our body and our mind want us to keep the same.

Our mind- our bind- mind and body don't really want us to change.

So, we have to overcome that and switch the kaleidocope... kaleidoscope and say, I need a new story.

I need a new pattern.

If I want to have a new outcome and I don't want to be like [struggling sound] anymore, I have to show up differently.

And it's in you to do that.

[Scott] Well, you know, it's in... interesting because there... there's so much connectivity in... in terms of the book and... and... and the writing that you both put into it and, Jennifer, when I...

I...

I take those patterns and those little shifts that Katie's talking about and I have to confess, I saw a bit of myself in a lot of the different examples.

One of them that you all use is talking about different archetypes that people tend to fulfill, whether they're a rescuer or, uh, you know, taking on the victim role or things like that, and, uh, and how we can cycle between all of these things.

But really, what it... it sounds like is- kind of a... a... a silent message through your work is to be more conscious, present, and intentional as to where you are at any given moment in... in communication with others.

Can you speak to that a little bit?

I...

I love that question because, you know, did you drive to work today?

Yes.

And have you ever driven somewhere, and you drove and you arrive and you're like, "I don't even remember getting here."?

[Scott] Yes.

More often than I'd like to admit.

Yeah.

That's how some of us live life.

I live life that way sometimes.

So do you.

We're just kind of asleep at the wheel.

And what our book is calling us into is a very challenging way of living.

And it's saying, let's be awake, let's be "response able."

Let's be constantly aware that between an event and an outcome, there is a response.

And we have authorship in that response.

Not always easy.

We flail and fail at it all the time, but that there always is the next opportunity to be response able, and to not fall into that Dr. Karpman drama triangle, but to live in the circle of choice, where in every given moment, we have metacognition, we can think about thinking and change the way we're behaving, and therefore change the outcomes of our relationships.

Hmm.

Katie, I want...

I want to ask you, you know, this work that you two have done took place, in part, during the pandemic- right?

- in terms of the authorship and all that.

How did the pandemic affect the creation of... of the book?

And secondly, uh, you know- probably more importantly for the both of you- which is, um, have you all, uh, as experts and observers, seen any sort of way that the impact, uh, of the pandemic has kind of changed all of us in a way that we've got to deal with some stuff on communications as well?

[Jennifer] Good question.

[Katie] Absolutely.

So, the pandemic is all over this book.

It is the setting for it.

Um, one of the chapters where we really teach curiosity is we were hired by a political as- uh, uh, an association, a big industry association where, you know, they had to figure out about the events of January 6th, and they had to figure out things about Black Lives Matter, and they had to think about things about vasks and- masks and mandates and vaccines.

How do we get two parties that are dug in on a- an agenda to come together with curiosity and do that?

And so, it's all over the book, and so many of us were shaped by that pandemic.

And guess what?

We have this amazing, ripe opportunity, as we're all settling into the new normal, which is a hybrid work world.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Katie] The world has changed, in addition to a whole generation coming in to work.

Gen Z is in our workplace, and their whole lives have been defined by the pandemic and even a couple of years of political polarization prior to that.

And so, how we communicate and show up is so critically important.

And we need to be able to take that step back and say, "Who am I?

What are my identity markers?

How I maybe am not showing up optimally in them to connect with people who are really different than me."

I hope that answers your question.

Yes.

Jennifer, anything you want to add on that?

The rise of social media is also changing brain chemistry.

Research will be emerging, um, that really shows that attention spans are changing, that the way we grasp and seek to have our emotional needs met, the dopamine hits we're looking for are changing.

And so, I want to sum it up by saying, um, communication is a skill.

It's a skill very few of us actually ever learned in our home lives and in our school lives.

We learned how to pull away instead of lean in.

And so, you know, that's the one thing I think that this nation needs, that everyday professionals need, is when things get tight, when pressure hits, when you think that- gonna hit the fan, how can I lean in and be curious and show up with care?

It changes the world.

[Scott] You know, as... as you know, the book's been launched and you all have received all of this attention and... and been out in... in the world sharing your ideas and thoughts.

What has really struck or surprised you most about the reception that... that it's received?

I am struck time and time again by- I'm going to call them "popcorn eaters," people who are like, "I've read all the leadership books.

They say all the same junk over and over again.

They just tell me to... to do better, and I swear I'm doing the best I can."

[Jennifer] Yes!

Yes.

[Katie] And the greatest joy are the popcorn eaters who are very skeptical, and they come to the end of a workshop or a series with us and they say things like, "You just saved my marriage," "Oh, my God, I can talk to my kid again," and "I can now show up to a meeting and heal this thing that I had with this other person that works in a cubicle down the hall from me because you gave me the language and the right energy to do it," and now it's like reduced suffering.

[Jennifer] Yes.

[Katie] We want to reduce suffering in the world because it's just messing everything up.

[Jennifer] Ditto.

[Laughter] [Scott] Ditto.

Well, incidentally, I...

I do want to challenge both of you on... on one thing.

[Jennifer] Yeah, go for it.

[Scott] Both in the book itself, but also in... in... in some of your earlier comments, you talked about, you know, the professional world and... and the work world and all this.

And in my reading of the book, I...

I felt that, uh, as effective as all of the tools and observations that are within the book will be in a professional environment, I felt that the book was transformative in terms of how it could affect our personal lives.

And I- And so, it surprises me a little bit that... that not only do you not lead with that, but it's almost like it's very soft in the background, if there at all.

Can you share what is- why- what's behind that?

[Jennifer] Well, our publisher.

[Katie] Our publisher is behind that.

[Jennifer] Our publisher is behind that.

McGraw Hill is a business book and education book.

And we actually have two versions of this book.

We wrote one- the one you just described- and the one that came out.

And so, as we look to book two, which, um, starts writing in the fall, um, you'll be seeing a little bit more of that personal side.

And let me just say, Scott, you're so right.

We talk all the times in schools, churches, communities, uh, marriage clinics, everywhere we go, we're just like, your human suit is your human suit.

You can't zip it on and off.

Wherever you go, there you are.

Thus, let's skill up because kindness, compassion, curiosity is what, you know, makes great relationships.

So- [Katie] I'm also going to add one thing.

[Jennifer] Tell me.

[Katie] So, we did.

We wrote a mind, body, spirit book, and then it became a business book.

However, the American workplace is the Petri dish of our American democracy.

[Jennifer] Yes.

[Katie] Very rarely do we get to choose who we work with, who we collaborate with, and that is where we can practice democratic ideals of inclusion, of equity, of education for all, of prosperity for all, is in that workplace environment.

So, we are- In other ways, we... we're worried about our democracy... [Jennifer] Deeply.

[Katie] ...as... as... as two sides of the fence.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Katie] Like, the workplace is a place to actually teach these skills and help transform people.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

Hmm.

Katie, I'm...

I'm curious.

For you, what was the most difficult part- You, as a writer and you started nonprofits related to writing and all that, what was the most difficult part about writing this book?

Not being in my own genre, which is like- [Jennifer] Yes.

That's true.

[Katie] When- I mean, I write memoir, I write prose poetry, I am- In those, I'm an artist and I'm all about myself.

So, like communication, when I go to write a book with this woman and to say, "I'm going to truly be your partner," and we're truly going to come up with a story and a book that is unique and different and it's not written in my genre, and I'm not the voice and the star.

Oh, man.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Katie] Jennifer taught me so much more about teamwork and being a "we" over a "me" in writing this book.

And that was honestly the hardest part for me, was sharing.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Katie] And I'm so glad I did.

But also, isn't that the truth of communication and collaboration?

Obviously.

Jennifer, I'm curious for you, what was most challenging for you?

[Jennifer] Uh, the writing.

[Scott] Just the writing itself?

[Jennifer] No, I mean- No, no, just like, I...

I have- I've...

I've never honed a skill like Katie has of how do you say something so precisely and cleanly yet still with a softness and a color that has people like, "Oh"?

And that's where Katie really leaned in and helped me figure out how to use language, so that people could hear how to use metaphors that worked.

Um, and I think the most important thing that I learned and... and that- through the struggle of writing the book is what does it mean to have your work reviewed by a peer, have it stressed by a peer, in the best way, and have it- then say, "Oh, quality over ego."

Quality over ego.

[Katie] Yeah.

[Scott] That's always- That is always tough.

That is always tough.

[Jennifer] It is!

Yeah.

[Scott] I...

I...

I'm curious, in our final moments- And I want each one of you to have a shot at this.

Katie, we'll start with you.

Uh, what do you hope that readers take away from this book?

I hope readers take away a sense of their own psychology and biology and that what's happening for them is happening in that other human exactly across from them.

And that when we really understand that we're not the center of the universe, but everybody is operating like they are, that is when we have the best shot at building a bridge to another, to learning and to growth.

[Scott] Jennifer, you get the final word.

In this messy thing called life, we have authorship.

We have agency.

How you show up matters.

Just grab that with courage, conviction, care and love, and, uh, we can change our lives both here in our community and globally.

And I- we will leave it there.

Uh, please come back and see us again when the book on the personal side comes out.

[Katie] Absolutely.

Thank you.

[Jennifer] Thank you, Scott.

[Scott] All right.

The book is Bridging the Gap.

And I want to thank our guests and, uh, wish you all continue to use that Petri dish and bring back, uh, some new skills to help us all.

[Jennifer] Thank you.

All right.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guests and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪ All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs, are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.