the House takes a formal step# toward impeaching the president,## and the caucus kickoff to 2024's race for# the presidency is less than That brings us to the analysis of Brooks and# Marcus.

That is New York Times columnist David## Brooks and Ruth Marcus, columnist for The# Washington Post.

Jonathan Capehart is away.

It's great to see you both.

RUTH MARCUS, C your reaction that Rudy Giuliani has# been order workers Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman# almost $150 million for defamation.

David, what do you make of that?

DAVID BROOKS: It's deserve he ripped their li And so I think these big penalties are meant to# send a message and they are sending a message.## You can't lie and destroy people's lives# when you're in a position of authority.

The largest story is, whatever happened to# Rudy Giuliani?

When he w him.

I traveled around the city with him.

He# was smart.

He was calm.

He had -- believe m he had quirks.

He was gladiatorial, but# he was not the guy we see now.

And it's## one of the most remarkable transformations# I have ever seen in public, in journalism.

And it's like what gets rotted when# you're desperate for relevance?

I was## once having lunch decades ago now with# a friend of mine named Michael Kelly,## who was editing "The Atlantic.

"# And there were two former ac ross the restaurant and.

He pointed to# them and (LAUGHTER) And I think that's what ate Giuliani's soul to# shreds.

And so he dese AMNA NAWAZ: Ruth, what about you?

RUTH MARCU But he did have power.

He had the power# be summoned to pay the $150 million.# That amount is going to be reduced.

He## doesn't have it.

No amount of money# can make up for what they suffered.

He's not -- he is so shameless, he continues# -- continued to defame them outside the court## even as the trial was going on.

He is not# going to have a comfortable retirement,## and he shouldn't.

And couldn't happen to a# nicer guy.

And I mean that sarcastically,## for anybody who might get that wrong.

AMNA NAWAZ: And we should no rising threats against electio they don't want to deal with it# anymore.

More to come on that.

Meanwhile, let's turn to the Hill,# because we know Senate negotiat are working to pass this foreign# aid bill that includes fo r Ukraine and for Israel held# up on those border policy talks.

Senator Schumer saying that the Senate will# come back next week.

They will hold a vote.

Look, Democrats are clearly incentivized to get## this across the finish line.

Are# DA VID BROOKS: Nope, nope.

No, because a lot# of them would -- the the Republicans would -- they don't# worry if we don't have Ukraine aid,## and they love having the immigration# issue.

And so they have less urgency.

I still somehow think it's going to get done.# It just makes so much sense.

Everybody gets## something important they want, that what's# happening on the border has to be address The Democrats absolutely have to address it.# It's a super important issue, getting hammered on it.

And then Ukraine has to# happen.

We can't let Vladimir Putin win that war.

It just seems to be so obvious.

The# hard part is, this is not -- sometimes,## when you get 60 votes in the Senate, you# get 51 votes in one party, and then you to get nine others from the other party.# That's not going to happen here.

You're## going to -- it's going to be a 30-30.

You're# going to get 30 Republicans and Both sides are going to lose a lot of people.# And doing that kind of deal -- and we bipartisan deals before, but doing a 30-30 deal# when you get the majority of both parties, that's## super hard to do, let alone immigration, the issue# that we have not made progress on since 1986.

AMNA NAWAZ: That's correct, yes.

DAVID BROO behind this deal is so strong to me that I# suspect they will eventually Bu t you don't hear a lot of# optimism right now on the Hill.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, what about the logic behind the heat from the progressive wing, in particular, for# many of these proposed immigrat Is he going to lose many of the same members# of the coalition that put him into office?

RUTH MARCUS: Yes, but I think# there's actually logic on both sides.

I think, on the Republican side, I have a# slightly different answer than David because I think that many Republicans, and# particularly Senate Republicans, the majority## of them, are well -- are very incentivized to get# the Ukraine funding, including Senator McConnell.

And they know that border security has to be# a piece of this.

On the House -- the problem## is getting it through the House.

In# order to get it through the House,## you have to convince House Republicans that# Democrats were dra screaming.

And that -- and so, to a certain# extent, the administration and advocates of## getting this across the line benefit from the# yelps you're hearing from the left right now.

They can calm them down later.

And House -- but# House Republicans have very mixed motives, right?## They like border security as an issue perhaps more# than they like border security as a solution.

Now,## from the president's point of view, this will be# my last thing, this gives -- he has a problem on## the left and people will be yelling at the end of# this process if it -- if this all comes together.

People from the left will be yelling, but he has a# bigger political problem, which is border security## is a very motivating issue for voters that he has# to get on his side in order to get reelected.

So## this, to some way, gives him a little bit of# an excuse to do something that he wouldn't## have the political freedom to do otherwise,# and to say, I took steps to help solve this.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, David, I want to get# your reaction to something Ruth said there,## because it was President Biden that linke If it does get addressed in these ways,## does that take it away from Republic DAVID BROOKS: It's not -- we're not# going to totally solve the border,## but maybe we won't have 10,000 asylum remember, Joe Biden was the -- in 2020, a lot of# the activist groups and a lot of the Democ politicians were on the primary debate stage# basically wanted to decriminalize the border.

Joe Biden was one of the few Democrats# to say, no, we're not going there.

If## they had gone there, Donald Trump would# have won tha for Joe Biden to do what he's doing now, and# to be not quite as progressive on the border,## while still being kind of progressive,# it just is a political must, must.

RUTH MARCUS: And the border situation has# gotten much worse since that conversation,## and so he really does need to do something.

AMNA NAWAZ: Meanwhile, in the# House, let's tal The Republican Conference voted into President Biden.

That inquiry, we# should point out, in our latest poll,## we have seen a slight increase in approval# for them to move forward on that in last couple of months.

In October,# 52 percent of Americans disapproved,## 47 percent approved.

By December, 48# percent disapproved, 49 percent approved Hunter Biden, of course, on whom Republicans# are hanging many of these allegations,## this week defied a Republican subpoena# to testify privately.

He says he wants## to do so publicly.

And here's what he# had to say about this on Wednesday.

HUNTER BIDEN, Son of Joe Biden:# Let me state as clearly as I can,## my father was not financially involved in# my business, not as a practicing l not as a board member of Burisma, not in my# partnership with a Chinese private businessman,## not in my investments at home nor# abroad, and certainly not as an artist.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, there's no evidence linking the## president to any wrongdoing yet.

DAVID BROOKS: Well, it's easy to go ahead and# do an inquiry.

There are a lot of Republicans who have no problem doing an inquiry, but there# are a lot of Republicans who also say, well,## there's no reason for impeachment.# Like, there's no evi And so I do think that the inquiry was already# going on.

So this just continues was already happening.

And so I think there# are still a lot of Republicans who are like,## OK, fine, let them have their inquiry,# but unless there's some evidence... AMNA NAWAZ: When you say let them# have their inquiry, you mean?

DAVID BROOKS: Jim Jordan, basica And I will say one other thing.

One you get -- I have been on like 30 or# 40 cities and I have met hundreds and hundreds of# people and I hav and the border and all this.

How many# people have aske AMNA NAWAZ: How many?

that's just not resonating.

People have# bigger things to worry abo AMNA NAWAZ: Ruth, what's your take?

RUTH MARCUS: M (LAUGHTER) RUTH MARCUS: That's my take.

This is -- I am harsher about this impeachment# inquiry.

You sort of mak no foul.

Let them go ahead with their# inquiry.

This is a shameful misuse of## the impeachment power and the impeachment process.

Michael Gerhardt was on this program just# the other night talking abou never been a formal impeachment inquiry# in American history in the absence of## credible evidence of wrongdoing.# So we are looking, as you said,## for -- it's a hunt for high crimes and# misdemeanors without evidence to do And I think it threatened, because once# you get this official ball rolling,## then how do you stop from giving in to the demands# for a vote for articles of impeachment?

And then## you put the 18 or so Republicans who are in# Biden -- districts that Biden won against## Trump in a terrible position.

They're either# going to invite -- depending on the timing,## they're going to invite their base to# primary them if they don't vote for it,## or they're going to have their general electorate# mad at them when the And so this does not -- this -- the# only smart politics of this are to## assuage Trump and to assuage the base.# But it's not to protect your majority.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, meanwhile, 30 days to# go until the Iowa caucuses, it feels like## a good time to remind people about many# of the candidates who are still running.

Mr. Trump is, of course, up 32 points# compared to the other candidates.

But## also still running for the Republican# nomination is Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley,## Vivek Ramaswamy, Chris Christie.

Asa# Hutchinson's campaign also continues.

David, do you see anything,## anything in that field changing between# DAVID BROOKS: No, probably not.

I -- we were always waiting.

We then the numbers will begin to move# around.

And so campaigning has starte and the numbers are not moving around.

If# anything, Donald Trump is doing even better.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

DA Iowans who have never been to a caucus,# so political novices, basically, Trump,## I saw, was winning by -- them by 62 or 63 percent.

So he's like swamping people.# He's bringing in new people.

AMNA NAWAZ: Bringing in new folks too.

DAVID BROOKS: An RUTH MARCUS: He's bringing in new people,# and he's got an operation for how to run## the caucuses that was very amateurish# last time around and that is much better,## last time around being 2016,# when he had a contested primary.

And it's going to be much better now.

It's kind of# a preview of, heaven forbid, a second Trump ter He's getting smarter at doing this.

And I don't# think there's any reason to expect that he's not## going to be -- not going to win the caucuses# and not going to be the Republican nominee.

AMNA NAWAZ: There was a conversation we# had several months ago I haven't heard## in a while about eventually, if enough people# wanted to stop h they had to drop out, they had to# coalesce behind a single candidate.

Has that moment come and gone, David?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, in Iow RUTH MARCUS: Yes.

Haley some kind of shot in New Hampshire.

And it's# just -- somebody pointed out it's a rerun The other Republicans are not attacking# him.

They're not dropping out.

It's all the## collective action problems we saw in 2016.

And# it's just a rerun.

They have le AMNA NAWAZ: Have about 20 seconds.

and they're worrying about themselves# first.

And it wouldn't make a difference.

(LAUGHTER) RUTH MARCUS: Good to see you.