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♪ David: Hey everybody.

Welcome to "Chat Box."

I'm David Cruz.

Governor Murphy's address this week opens the budget season, and this year, it seems uncertainty is the byword.

Let's take a look at what that uncertainty could mean to the way state government funds a lot of stuff.

A lot of stuff comes out of the assembly.

And the speaker of the lower house joins us now as the season begins.

Craig Coughlin welcome back to , "Chatbox," man.

Guest: Good to see you, David.

Always good to be here with you.

David: So, a record $58 billion in spending.

You could get the sense from the tone of the governor's speech that everything's pretty groovy out there.

Is everything pretty groovy out there?

Guest: Well, groovy?

I think the truth of the matter is that there's an awful lot of good things in this budget.

Let's start at what I think is critically important to the people of New Jersey, always number one on the top of the list is property taxes.

$4.3 billion in property tax relief in this budget fully funds ANCHOR, fully funds Freeze, and fully funds the new program, StayNJ, that's going to cut property taxes in half for most seniors.

So,there are a lot of things like that.

In addition, the governor proposes eliminating some of the sales tax on things that are common for people, strollers, babybottles, yeah, things like that.

So,those are important things for New Jerseyans, and I think that the governor just did a terrific job in addressing those things.

Also, the budget continues our good stewardship of the funds we have in New Jersey.

New Jersey has about a 6 billion surplus to make sure that we have things that, you know, the challenges that we'll face as we go forward each year.

And it is a significant increase over what was eight years ago when he started as the governor, I should say.

So there's lots of programs in here, continued lots of things in here that are good for New Jersey residents.

So, I don't think any of those are uncertain.

I didn't hear the "however" that should be in that statement because there is a real threat, right?

David: I mean, can you talk a little bit about the potential impact of federal cuts to state funding for Medicaid, education, even transportation?

Guest: Yeah, death rate.

And I was going to get to that, David -- [LAUGHTER] but I guess you want to move the interview along.

Okay, I'll talk faster.

[laughs] No, the truth of the matter is, it is no laughing matter.

And it is no joke.

We saw yesterday the house passed a bill to reduce spending by $1.5 trillion over 10 years.

But what that really means is that over 800 billion is going to come from the committee that is responsible for overseeing Medicare, Medicaid, S.N.A.P., which, you know, I've done my cornerstone of my speakership has been fighting against food insecurity, and a reduction in S.N.A.P.

is just flat-out cruel and wrong.

It's not bad policy.

It is just wrong.

It is morally wrong.

And so, yes, that is something that we don't really have a scope of yet.

Where it could come in terms of transportation.

We know that the Department of Education is right in the crosshairs of the president and his project 2025 crew.

We know that that will have a profoundly adverse impact on children in the state of New Jersey.

We know that Pell Grant and other ways that allow New Jersey students to go to college and fulfill their dreams, are under siege.

So those will have incredibly profoundly adverse impacts on New Jerseyans.

David: You haven't had to deal with these kinds of threats since you have been in the speaker's chair.

What happens if those cuts do come?

I guess that is there any day that the $6 billion surplus is supposed to cushion, but is that going to be enough?

Guest: A, no one has set in the speaker's chair and had to deal with something like that, where the federal government is critically impacting it I want to say destroying -- Medicaid and things like that.

Let's remember what Medicaid does, it is for people who need medical care and who struggle to provide for themselves.

They need help.

Again, these aren't governmental functions so much as they are moral obligations to our fellow citizens.

And so, I don't know.

I suspect that we are going to see a proposed tax cut for billionaires, but if, on a balance scale, on a human scale, cutting Medicaid so you can create a tax cut for billionaires seems preposterously disastrous.

So, we don't have any idea how much we are going to get.

We get about $27.5 billion from the federal government.

Obviously, the more we take, the more they cut.

There's a number by which we just can't possibly replace.

So, we don't know what that is yet, but certainly, that's one of the things that keeps us up at night.

David: So then what happens in the worst case scenario?

Stay NJ is your baby.

To what ends will you go to preserve its funding if a crisis hits?

Guest: I think we are a little bit being speculative when we talk about the crisis that might hit.

So, let's hope that cooler heads prevail in Washington.

David: We are dealing in potential threats and theoretical threats and hypothetical threats, but I mean, somewhere over there, somebody is thinking about those.

Is that something that is going to be deliberated during this next several months of the budget process?

Guest: I mean, we are not naïve.

They are theoretical -- they have taken a step towards reality, a big step forward, when the House passed their bill.

So, no, I don't think any of us believe that they are not going to come.

It's just the size, the scope, the timing, all of those things that would allow you to make an informed decision about what we can or can't do.

It's also not unthinkable, for instance, that the $800 million or so from the corporate transit fee that the governor has dedicated to NJ Transit could also go back into the general fund.

No?

Guest: Look, I think we are going, as you pointed out at the top of the interview, this is the first step in the budget process.

It inevitably has a list taken twists and turns as we get to that.

There will be things that will come that we think about, you know, we hope won't come, or whatever, and then we'll have to deal with that appropriately.

David: Yeah,.

In New Jersey, I think a lot of people who watch this show probably do know there there are a significant number of people who don't realize that by law, your budget has to be balanced.

You can just say let's leave this and will print some money later like the federal government can do.

Guest: Yeah,.

It's interesting, right?

I mean, I've seen people campaign like, "Oh, we passed all these balanced budgets."

We didn't have a choice, right?

[LAUGHTER] But, look, StayNJ is really important to me, David.

It is something that I think is transformative for the state of New Jersey.

It's something that I'm prepared to work for, to defend, and make sure it happens.

David: Alright, the business community was also a none too pleased with this budget.

Not a shocker.

But they complained that ANCHOR, for instance, the other tax relief plan, doesn't help small businesses facing rental pressures.

Plus, the usual corporate business tax complaints.

Do they have a point?

Guest: No.

The program is designed to help homeowners and renters of residential properties.

It accomplishes what it does.

It shouldn't be a criticism of that program.

We have done an awful lot of things for small businesses though over the course of the governor's term, privileged the time that I've been privileged to serve as the speaker.

There's more in the budget to help them as well.

In this budget, you know, we invested somewhere near a billion dollars during the course of the pandemic to try to help small businesses stay solvent and try to survive that challenge.

So, no, calling ANCHOR, the program is not designed for commercial purposes.

It's designed to help residents.

David: anything that is what their point was.

that they wanted some tax relief for small businesses who rent, the pizza shop on the corner, etc.

But I hear what you are saying.

Let me move on to another question here about this process.

Is it going to be any different this year?

Are we going to see a final document 15 minutes before you have to vote on it, or worse, 20 minutes after it's voted on?

Guest: Let's not true.

That hasn't happened.

The truth of the matter is, we often work until the deadline.

And lead passed a budget.

But the budget always goes through the community.

It is then passed by the whole legislature.

Often times we do work close to the deadline.

But remember, the budget that the governor proposes, changes very little.

Probably 98%-plus of what you see at the introduction is what you are going to get when we pass a budget.

I know it's a great talking point, people try to make hay out of it.

But the truth of the matter is, for months, if we are voting in June, it's four months from now, 98% of the budget has been known.

99% of the budget has been known.

There are things that we change.

There are things that happen, as I talked about before.

You know, the State Health Benefit Program could have a new premium schedule that will cause us to do some things.

There'll be members standing up for projects.

There'll be compromise, as we do almost every year.

So, while they are certainly large dollars in terms of things that can change, they are, as a percentage of the budget, relatively small.

David: So coming in June is the primaries.

Guest: To a theater near you.

[LAUGHTER] David: Ballot design -- the bill is being debated this week.

Critics say that the ballot should be a list of candidates' names and that giving candidates either the right to bracket or to have a circle or a number that distinguishes them from other candidates is not what the judge had in mind when he sent you all back to the drawing board.

Guest: Well, I don't think that is the case.

I think what the judge was talking about was effectively campaigning within the ballot and giving advantages to one group of people over another.

David: David: You don't think this ballot design does that.

Guest: I think the ballot bill that we are going to concur with today, will pass and will meet constitutional muster.

It is certainly the block design that the court had indicated would be appropriate.

It does allow members to associate who are running together.

So, you know, my running mate and I will be able to indicate we want to be together.

And then, what that does, the practical reality is, it puts us next to each other on the ballot.

There aren't any markings indicating that we are, you know, sort of bracketing things on the ballot.

I think we have done a good job at putting together a bill that is mindful of the judge's decision and falls within the bounds of constitutionality.

David: My quick answer to this one, if you could -- what do you think of this field, the last 1 -- what do you think of the field of candidates for governor on the Democratic side, since you are not in it?

Do you have a pick yet?

Guest: I haven't announced it yet.

Look, I think we have a tremendous field of wonderfully talented leaders.

I think each of them brings tremendous skill sets, record of accomplishment, and ability to lead the state forward.

David: I have to tell you that that is what I expected you to say, speaker, that's why I asked you if you had a pick yet.

So I'll take it as a no, you don't have a pick yet.

Right?

Guest: As I said, I think we have six wonderful candidates.

[LAUGHTER] Deja: Speaker Craig Coughlin, always appreciate you taking a few minutes with us, man.

Good to see you.

Guest: All is good to be with you, David.

David: There's more happening in Trenton this week.

Antoinette Miles is state director of the Working Families Party of New Jersey, and she joins us now from the State House.

Antoinette, good to see you again.

Welcome.

Guest: All is good to see you, David.

David: So, before we get into the budget, let's talk a little bit about what was happening in the Assembly session that you are just coming from.

I thought ballot design was settled, but lawmakers were given a chance to fix the thing.

Did they?

Guest: [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I think that is a great way to start us off, David.

Look, we have gotten to a point where we have come over from the county line system, and the county line as we know it, is dead.

However, lawmakers have decided to an and the assembly voted on the bill after the Senate earlier this week had voted on the bill that we view as still fundamentally not a fair ballad that New Jersey voted -- ballot that New Jersey voters deserve.

What we mean about this is, making sure every candidate is treated the same on the ballots and that county clerks cannot rig the ballot in a way that influences voters and influences their choices of who their preferred candidates are.

So while we have come a long way and we do appreciate that legislators have gotten rid of "ballot Siberia" and the worst of the worst that we've seen with our ballots in the past, unfortunately, it does come up just a bit short in terms of the fair ballot that we wanted to see.

David: So, what is the most objectionable part of this to you?

Guest: So, I think the biggest objection that we have, is that the bill does not adhere to what voters and adhere to what many people have testified to about making sure that every candidate is treated equally in the ballot .

David: How does it do that?

Guest: What the bill dies is it allows for running mates, simply because they are running together, to appear next to each other on the ballot.

That is allowing them to essentially dictate how they are going to be placed on the ballot, that they would be in what I call a "buddy system" with each other.

And if you are a candidate who's running independently, you are going to be feeling that pressure and that urgency of, "In order for me to get fair treatment in front of the voter, do I also need to have a running mate?

Do I also need to buddy up with someone on the ballot?"

Then fundamentally that is exactly what was one of the many concerns underlying the litigation.

It was the concerns that Senator Andy Kim had brought in his litigation.

And so, we do think that that is a step backward from a fair ballot.

David: So did the judge in the case that caused all of this, not say that candidates had a right to bracket with other candidates?

Guest: So, judge Quraishi's order, in my view, was very clear about making sure that there was an equal and separate draw for each candidate for each office.

I think that, no pun intended, the jury is still out on basically how this bill would be perceived.

And I think that, again, Judge Quraishi was very clear about making sure that voters will be able to have a choice of their candidates and not be influenced simply based on who candidates are choosing to group themselves with on the ballot.

David: Let's get to this budget, which Republicans say, the ones I spoke to this week say it's a gift to progresses.

Is it?

Guest: David, the way I look at this budget is, I think Governor Murphy has really tried to create a lot of uncertainty.

Right now we have Republicans in Congress who are talking about massive tax cuts to billionaires and wealthy corporations, to programs like Medicaid and Medicare, and that will affect New Jersey, which relies on federal funding.

So, a massive gift to progressives?

No.

I think that what the governor has done is making sure that we can sustain the programs that are important, like school funding, making sure we keep our promises to public workers as it relates to their pensions, and also making sure that we can still invest in relief for working people in this state.

So, I mean, as you say, it could all go away with the flick of the wrist from this president and this Congress, cuts to Medicaid, education, transportation, who knows what else?

That could blow that $6 billion surplus out of the water, right?

Quickly.

That is a genuine concern.

In the worst case scenario, what goes first from this budget?

After that $6 million surplus gets sucked out, if that is what happens?

Stay NJ?

ANCHOR?

Guest: I think that is the million, or potentially billion-dollar question, David.

I think the governor has made clear that a lot of the one-time grants, and as we call it, the "Christmas tree items," go away.

There is a lot of important programs basically being put on the chopping block.

I think that what working families is advocating for this budget season, is making sure that, yes, we have a surplus, that, yes, will continue to fulfill a lot of the large program investments we need to as a state.

But also, a lot of these corporations and wealthy households are about to get a windfall from the federal government if the House Republicans have their way.

And so, Working Families, we have advocated for a corporate transit fee before; we've advocated for a millionaires tax before.

So, I think that we are looking to make sure that those at the very, very top do continue to pay their fair share so that we don't enter a crisis in our budget.

David: We just had Speaker Coughlin on before you, and we asked him about StayNJ.

And he says he's going to do whatever he can to make sure that it happens.

But part of the criticism of that specific program is that a lot of more well-to-do homeowners in the state are going to get their real estate taxes cut in half.

Guest: Yeah, I mean, when we look at the arc of what this budget represents, we are seeing cuts to programs.

Some of the tax cuts are going to renters, some of it is going to homeowners.

But the thing I have questions about is, when we know that we are facing a lot of federal uncertainty, when our surplus may not be enough, are we really making the right decisions to invest so much into these programs?

And I'm not saying that New Jerseyans don't deserve relief, but I'm thinking about the college student who wants to stay in New Jersey for possibly the next 20 to 30 years of their lifetime, and I'm wondering what this budget does for them.

I'm wondering what this budget also does for families of four, for working mothers and others who, yes, may get the Working Families Tax Credit like EITC or the child tax credit, but frankly, because of inflation, those tax credits aren't going far enough.

And this budget does not expand them in a significant way.

I do think that, on the balance of it, we do need to think about what choices that we are making to make sure that, yes, we are making investments and that we are giving people relief where they need it, but it's not going to the very top.

David: you mentioned that discretionary spending, it was like a billion dollars last year, of what some people refer to as "Christmas tree items," usually comes at the end of the budget process, and we don't know who proposed them until well after the budget is passed.

I can't remember if Working Families was down with those Christmas tree items or not.

Guest: What I will say about that is, we have been very adamant about transparency.

We know how this budget cycle works, where lawmakers at the last minute are looking at documents, hundreds of pages potentially, and we don't even know what those budgets say, and then they are passed essentially right before midnight.

And then, we are left wondering and trying to understand after the budget has passed what exactly those items say.

I think that Governor Murphy is right to sort of hold the line and saying, OK, we have to make some tough choices here.

But there is a lot of important programs that are being put forward in those items.

There's not always a good amount of funding for things like legal services for immigrants and their families.

And so, those are the types of programs that I think are important and unfortunately are on the table as we have this budget conversation.

A little more discretion in this discretionary spending.

Lastly, really quick on this budget process, I'll bet you a quarter that this budget is going to get a vote on June 30, like 5:00 p.m. Am I right?

Guest: [laughs] Hey, I think the legislators might be creatures of habit.

I'm hoping that they will start to relinquish themselves of doing that.

But look, I think that, again, there's still a lot of uncertainty coming from the federal government, and I think that we are going to continue to press to make sure that there is as much transparency ahead of time so that we are not at the 11th hour looking at budget documents that no one has read before.

So I think that if everything holds true, that may happen.

But please understand that a lot of people will be asking for transparency because we are talking about the most consequential document, consequential piece of legislation, that is being passed and that impacts millions of people.

David: Wii's.

All right, Antoinette Miles, joining us from Trenton.

Good to see you.

Thanks for coming on.

Guest: Always good to see you.

Thanks, David.

David: And that's "Chat box" this week.

Thanks also to Speaker Coughlin for joining us.

You can see what else the team is up to by subscribing to the NJ Spotlight News YouTube channel.

I'm David Cruz.

For the entire crew here at Gateway Center in downtown Newark, we thank you for watching.

We'll see you next week.

ANNOUNCER: Major funding for "Chat box with David Cruz" is provided by -- the members of the New Jersey Education Association, "making public schools great for every child."

Promotional support for "Chatbox with David Cruz" is provided by Insider NJ, a political intelligence network dedicated to New Jersey political news.

Insider NJ is committed to giving serious political players and interactive farm ideas, discussion, and insight online at InsiderNJ.com.

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