AFTER HURRICANES HIT, SHOULD COASTAL HOMES GO BACK UP?

TRICKLE-DOWN AND OUT IN THE U.K. AND WITH FRIENDS LIKE THESE • THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

STAY TUNED.

"IVORY TOWER" IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

ON OUR PANEL THIS WEEK WE HAVE CHAD SPARBER FROM COLGATE UNIVERSITY, LUKE PERRY, AND RICK FENNER, BOTH FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY, AND JOINING US FOR THE FIRST TIME, SARAH PRALLE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT THE MAXWELL SCHOOL AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

SARAH IS ALSO A FACULTY ASSOCIATE AT THE CAMPBELL PUBLIC AFFAIRS INSTITUTE AT SU.

WELCOME TO THE PANEL, SARAH.

IT'S BEEN THREE WEEKS SINCE HURRICANE IAN SLAMMED INTO SOUTHWEST FLORIDA, KILLING AT LEAST 150 PEOPLE, DESTROYING THOUSANDS OF HOMES, AND CAUSING TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DAMAGE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN VISITED, AND PROMISED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S HELP IN REBUILDING IN FLORIDA, AND PUERTO RICO, TOO.

BUT IS IT TIME TO SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AND NOT REBUILD SO CLOSE TO THE COAST IN AREAS PRONE TO MAJOR STORMS?

SHOULD GOVERNMENT MORE STRICTLY REGULATE WHERE PEOPLE CAN BUILD?

>> WELL, I'M GOING TO BEGIN WITH A FUN FACT AND THAT THAT'S FEMA RANKS SYRACUSE AS AMERICA'S SAFEST CITY IN TERMS OF NATURAL DISASTER RISK.

SO AS GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE CONTINUES TO ACCELERATE THINGS LIKE FIRES, FLOODS AND HURRICANES, WE COULD STAND TO BENEFIT FROM PEOPLE BEING DISPLACED INTO OUR AREA.

BUT I SAY THAT IN PART BECAUSE IT MAKES ME ACTUALLY FEEL A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE IN TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO OR SHAKING MY HEAD AT PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING IN THESE HIGH RISK AREAS WHEN THAT'S SO FAR REMOVED FROM OUR REALITY.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT FLORIDA HAS DONE A GOOD JOB ABOUT ENACTING REGULATION TO LIMIT WIND DAMAGE.

THE CHALLENGE NOW IS HOW DO YOU ENGINEER A SYSTEM TO GET WATER OUT OF THE AREA AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

THAT'S AN ENGINEERING CHALLENGE THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SOLVE.

>> SARAH?

>> I THINK WE DO NEED STRICTER REGULATIONS ON WHERE PEOPLE CAN BUILD AND CERTAINLY HOW THEY CAN BUILD BACK.

BUT THERE IS REALLY OTHER PROBLEMS AS WELL.

AND SO ONE THING WE NEED TO DO IS UPDATE OUR FLOOD MAPS.

A LOT OF THE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE FLOODED IN FLORIDA WERE WORKING OFF OF 20-YEAR-OLD FLOOD MAPS THAT DID NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT THE CURRENT FLOOD RISK.

AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, EVEN IF COMMUNITIES HAVE UPDATED MAPS, THOSE MAPS DO NOT TELL PEOPLE HOW THAT RISK IS GOING TO CHANGE OVER THE NEXT COUPLE DECADES.

AS THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE GET WORSE, INCLUDING SEA LEVEL RISE AND EXTREME STORM EVENTS.

>> I WONDER IF THERE IS A POINT IN WHICH WE CAN'T-- EVEN WITH UPDATED FLOOD MAPS, WE CAN'T KEEP REBUILDING IN PLACES THAT GET KNOCKED DOWN BY STORMS.

>> IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE I THINK PRIVATE MARKETS ARE AHEAD, ACTUALLY OF THE GOVERNMENT HERE.

BECAUSE WHILE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO PICK UP MUCH OF THE TAB FOR THE FLOODING, MOST OF THE WIND DAMAGE THAT FALLS ON TO PRIVATE INSURERS.

AND WE SAW AFTER HURRICANE ANDREW HIT, MOST OF THE PRIVATE INSURERS PULLED OUT OF THE FLORIDA MARKET THINKING IT WAS TOO RISKY.

SO THE STATE OF FLORIDA ACTUALLY PROVIDES A PROGRAM CALLED CITIZENS, WHICH SELLS HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE TO PEOPLE ALONG THE COAST.

NOW THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE WIND DAMAGE FROM IAN HAS CAUSED SO MUCH, THAT IT'S GOING TO PUT THE CITIZENS PROGRAM AT RISK AND ASK THEM TO GO BACK TO THEIR REINSURERS.

THE PROBLEM IS WITHOUT INSURANCE, BANKS WILL NOT OFFER MORTGAGES AND PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO BUY AND BUILD IN THOSE AREAS.

>> THAT'S FLORIDA.

BUT FLORIDA IS NOT THE ONLY PLACE THAT'S PRONE TO STORMS LIKE THIS.

UP AND DOWN THE EAST COAST, THIS COULD HAPPEN ANYWHERE.

>> YEAH, I TAKE EXCEPTION TO THE IDEA THAT IF THERE IS A NATURAL DISASTER THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD CALM COME TO AID THE PEOPLE THAT EXPERIENCE THE DISASTER.

WHETHER IT'S FORT MYERS OR NEW YORK CITY, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS THE ROLE TO MAKE SURE THERE IS ORDER AND SECURITY.

WHEN COMMUNITIES ARE UNDER WATER, THEY NEED HELP.

SARAH'S POINT IS GOOD ONE CREASED REGULATION.

THEY'RE ALLOWING DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE THEY WANT THE TAX REVENUE SO I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COULD PLAY A ROLE BY PROVIDING GRANTS TO LOCAL COMMUNITIES OR EVEN STATESES THAT INCENTIVIZE THEM TO DO THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT WE THINK WOULD BE BENEFICIAL IN TERMS OF ZONING CHANGES AND SO ON.

>> HAS THIS MOVED THE NEEDLE AT ALL ON PEOPLE'S UNDERSTANDING OF CLIMATE?

>> IF IT'S NOT YET, IT'S GOING TO.

I THINK AS MORE AREAS EXPERIENCE THESE EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS AND FEEL THE EFFECTS OF THIS, THAT THE AWARENESS OF THIS PROBLEM IS DEFINITELY INCREASING.

BUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE STILL DRAWN TO THE COAST, TO LIVING AT THE COAST AND TO LIVING IN RISKY AREAS.

AND AS LUKE MENTIONED, THESE ARE HIGH PROPERTY VALUE, I KNOW, AREAS, THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS RELY ON THAT PROPERTY REVENUE.

AND SO THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE TO CONTINUE TO DEVELOP IN THESE AREAS.

IN FLORIDA, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS NO STATE INCOME TAX, AND SO A LOT OF THE REVENUE FOR THESE LOCAL COMMUNITIES IS COMING FROM PROPERTY TAXES.

>> SO THERE IS AN INCENTIVE TO BUILD.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THAT RAISES THE QUESTION THAT WHY AS WE AS NEW YORKERS SUBSIDIZE THE BUILDING OF THESE MULTIMILLION DOLLAR HOUSES ON THE BEACH?

ESPECIALLY WHEN DeSANTIS, WHEN IT CAME TO HURRICANE SANDY, DIDN'T SUPPORT FEDERAL HURRICANE AID FOR US.

SO I THINK THERE IS A POLITICAL COMPONENT HERE AS WELL.

>> WELL, YOU SAID THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD LEAVE PEOPLE ON THEIR OWN.

CAN THE FORESTER PROVIDE SUPPORT YET STILL SAY, OKAY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE REBUILDING HERE RIGHT ON THE BEACH.

I MEAN-- >> THERE ISN'T SUPPORT IN CONGRESS FOR THAT.

YOU NEED A FEDERAL LAW DO THAT.

THAT IS WHY I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN USE ITS FEDERAL REUSED TOES INDUCE STATES AND LOCALITIES TO DO THAT KIND OF THING BUT I DON'T SEE A BILL PASSING CONGRESS TO DO THAT.

>> I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO PRETEND THIS IS THE ONLY NATURAL DISASTER WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT.

THE WEST COAST HAS FIRES AND TORNADOES AND VOLCANOS.

>> SOME THINGS ARE NOT PREDICTABLE BUT A HURRICANE HITTING FLORIDA OR SOUTH CAROLINA IS PRETTY PREDICTABLE.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN BUT IT IS COMING.

>> THERE IS A EARTHQUAKE ON THE WEST COAST.

IT IS LESS FREQUENT BUT REALLY SEVERE.

>> INSURANCE COMPANIES HAVE, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE ACTED WITH THEIR MONEY AND THEY PULLED OUT OF FLORIDA BECAUSE OF THE HIGH RISKS SOBERED ASSOCIATED WITH HURRICANES.

I HAVE FADES HERE THAT IN THIS CASE, THE MARKETS MAY PROVIDE ACTION BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT DOES.

>> >> BRITISH PRIME MINISTER LIZ TRUSS RESIGNED HER POSITION THIS WEEK, JUST 6 WEEKS INTO THE JOB.

SHE WAS DONE IN BY THE TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMIC PROGRAM SHE AND HER FINANCE MINISTER UNVEILED LAST MONTH.

THAT PROGRAM HAS BEEN REVERSED, BUT THE DAMAGE TO GREAT BRITAIN'S ECONOMY, AND REPUTATION, HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE.

WAS IT THE POLICY OR THE TIMING THAT PROVED SO DISASTROUS, COMING AS THE U-K INFLATION RATE IS TOPPING 10 PERCENT?

>> WELL, THERE IS NO GOOD TIME TO IMPLEMENT A POLICY BASED ON A VERY FLAWED THEORY.

SO TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMIC PROGRAMS ARE GIVING BIG TAX CUTS TYPICALLY TO WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS AND CORPORATIONS AND THE BENEFITS DO NOT TRICKLE DOWN TO THE REST OF US.

THIS IS QUITE DISCREDITED IDEA BUT IT SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THOSE ZOMBIE IDEAS THAT DOESN'T REALLY DIE, AT LEAST IN CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL CIRCLES.

SO ON THIS SIDE OF THE POND, SOME OF US REMEMBER WHEN FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS SAID THE HUGE TAX CUTS THEY ENACTED IN 2017 WOULD PAY FOR THEMSELVES AND WOULD ADD ANOTHER $4,000 TO PEOPLE'S POCKETBOOKS.

BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

THE TAX CUTS, IN ACCOUNT FA, LED TO BIGGER DEFICITS, SIGNIFICANT DECREASES IN FEDERAL REVENUE AND ALSO MADE INCOME INEQUALITY MUCH WORSE.

SO I WOULD SAY THE BRITAINS WERE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO THE POLICIES AND NO TO THE GOVERNMENT.

>> I DON'T THINK THIS IS A REFERENDUM ON TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS AT ALL.

I THINK THIS IS JUST CONTINUED FALLOUT FROM THE STUPID DECISION TO LEAVE THE E.U.

IF YOU WANT MAKE IT ABOUT TRICKLE DOWN, THE BRITS MIGHT BE LOOKING ACROSS THE IRISH SEA, IRELAND AN ECONOMIC BACKWATER IN THE MID EACTS AND INDUSTRIALIZED INCREDIBLY THROUGH CORPORATE TAX RATES AND FURTHER LIBERALIZATION KIND OF SCHEMES AND NOW IT STANDS PER CAPITA IN IRELAND IS TWICE THAT OF THE U.K.

THE U.K. IS 68 MILLION PEOPLE IN AN AREA THE SIZE OF OREGON.

WHEREAS IRELAND SERVES A COMMON MARKET OF 450 MILLION PEOPLE SPANNING THE CONTINENT.

SO IT'S A MUCH DIFFERENT CALCULOUS.

>> THIS COMES DOWN TO BREXIT, IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?

>> YES.

>> I DO THINK THIS IS THE WRONG POLICY FOR THE WRONG TIME.

YOU MENTIONED INFLATION.

ESSENTIALLY, TRUSS' PLAN WOULD HAVE PUMPED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OR POUNDS INTO THE ECONOMY, PUMPING UP DEMAND AT A TIME WHEN INFLATION IS TAKING OFF.

THIS IS FUEL ON THE FIRE.

AND BY THE WAY, IT WASN'T BRITS THAT SAYS NO TO THE PLAN.

IT WAS GLOBAL MARKETS.

GLOBAL INVESTORS, ECONOMISTS AROUND THE WORLD, INVESTORS SAW THIS AS, AS I SAID, REALLY DESTABILIZING THE BRITISH ECONOMY AND PERHAPS SPILLING OVER TO THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

>> I ALSO THINK THOUGH TRUSS WAS 10% FAVORABILITY FACTORED INTO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND THE REASON IT FACTORED IN IS BECAUSE IT'S BASIC PUBLIC BUDGETING THAT MOST BRITS REALIZE.

IF YOU TAKE LESS MONEY IN WITH SIGNIFICANT TAX CUTS, THE BIGGEST TAX CUT PROPOSAL IN 50 YEARS AND SPENDING THE SAME, OR IN THIS CASE MORE BECAUSE THERE ARE PARTS OF THE MINI BUDGET PROPOSED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO CAP ENERGY PRICES AND IT WOULD BE PAID BY THE GOVERNMENT, YOU ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO ADD TO THE DEFICIT AND OVER TIME THE DEBT.

AND WHEN THAT'S ALREADY FAIRLY HIGH, IN THE U.K., THERE WAS A PUBLIC OUTCRY.

I THINK THAT'S A PIECE OF IT, TOO.

>> SO WHAT LESSONS CAN BE DRAWN BY U.S. POLICY MAKERS, CHAD?

>> VERY FEW.

>> VERY FEW?

>> YEAH WE RUN MASSIVE FISCAL DEFICITS ALL ALL THE TIME AND OUR INTEREST RATES REMAIN LOW BY WORLD STANDARDS.

WHY IS THAT?

WE ARE THE WORLD'S SAFE HAVEN, ONE OF ONLY SIX COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NEVER DEFAULTED ON OUR DEBT, THAT KEEPS INTEREST RATES LOW AND WE ARE A SAFE HAVEN FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

LIKE YOU SAVE MONEY, YOU WANT TO LOAN IT TO A GOVERNMENT, WE'LL REPAY YOU.

SO THE ONLY LESSON THAT I REALLY THINK ABOUT FOR THE U.S. IS WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO REPAY OUR DEBT SO WHENEVER THE DEBATE ABOUT DEBT CEILING COMES UP, THAT'S WHEN I GET WORRIED.

ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT DEFAULTING ON AMERICAN DEBT?

>> IT'S GOOD THAT YOU MENTION THAT POINT BECAUSE THAT WAS FLOATED JUST THIS WEEK.

SAYING THAT IS THE PLAN.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS, CHAN.

THERE CAN BE SOUND ARGUMENTS FOR TAX CUTS IN A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS BUT IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT TAX CUTS ALONE ACTUALLY PAY FOR THEMSELVES?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT...

I'M NOT MAKING THAT ARGUMENT.

I THINK YOU CAN LOOK AT EXAMPLES LIKE THE IRISH CASE, BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS TAX CUTS THAT WERE VERY TARGETED AND COUPLED WITH OTHER LIBERALIZING REFORMS THAT WENT ALONG WITH IT.

>> I THINK IN THE VERY, VERY LONG RUN, THAT CAN BE THE CASE.

THESE TAX CUTS CAN PROMOTE GAINS BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT UNDER MOST SUPPLY SIDE ARGUMENTS, IT'S IMMEDIATE GAIN FOR THE IMMEDIATE TAX CUT.

AND THAT'S NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

IT TAKES A LONG TIME.

AND SO ALMOST EVERY ATTEMPT AT INCREASING TAX REVENUES THROUGH TAX CUTS HAS FAILED.

>> AND I SHOULD ALSO SAY, U.K. AND EUROPE BOTH, IT'S A CONTINENT THAT DOESN'T HAVE A START-UP CULTURE, A ENTREPRENEURSHIP CULTURE.

WHY IS THAT?

ONE REASON, POTENTIALLY THEY DON'T ATTRACT ENTREPRENEURS, THE WAGES THEY PAY ENTREPRENEURS ARE PRETTY LOW SO A CONCERTED EFFORT TO TRY TO ATTRACT MORE OF THOSE PEOPLE THROUGH LOW TAX RATES, THAT COULD BE PART OF THE MOTIVATION THERE.

>> SO ONE PROBLEM IS THAT TRUSS DIDN'T SELL ANYBODY THIS IS WHAT SHE WAS GOING TO DO, RIGHT?

SHE JUST ANNOUNCED.

SHE DIDN'T RUN ON THE PLATFORM, I DON'T BELIEVE.

>> SORRY TO INTERRUPT BUT SHE ALSO DIDN'T LISTEN TO THE ECONOMISTS AND THE OTHER EXPERTS WHO WERE ADVISING HER AGAINST DOING THIS.

SO I THINK IT'S ALSO, THERE IS A LESSON THERE FOR US, SOMETIMES THE EXPERTS ARE RIGHT AND YOU REALLY NEED TO PAY ATTENTION AND LISTEN TO THEM.

THE SAME THING HAPPENED IN 2017, ECONOMISTS AT THE TIME, DID NOT AGREE WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT THESE TAX CUTS WOULD PAY FOR THEMSELVES.

>> AND THAT'S A GREAT POINT BECAUSE THERE IS A SORT OF LACK OF EXPERTISE.

WE NO LONGER TRUST IN EXPERTS, RIGHT?

THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN THE U.S. FOR, YOU KNOW, 15 YEARS OR SO AT LEAST, I WOULD GATHER.

BUT I WAS GOING TO MAKE THE POINT THAT IF SHE DIDN'T TELL PEOPLE WHAT SHE WAS GOING TO DO IN TERMS OF LESSONS FOR TODAY'S POLICY MAKERS, I'M WONDERING IF WE ARE SEEING THAT ALSO.

PEOPLE ARE RUNNING FOR OFFICE RIGHT NOW AND NOT SAYING WHAT THE PLAN IS FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE AND OTHER GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS.

>> WELL TRUSS' RECORD WAS PRETTY CONSERVATIVE.

IT WAS NO SECRET SHE WAS A PROPONENT OF FREE MARKET ECONOMICS AND WOULD DO NIECE KINDS OF THINGS.

SHE CAME TO PARTY WITH WITH THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY MEMBERSHIP ELECTING HER.

I THINK IT WAS THE TIMING.

I DON'T THINK IT WAS EXPECTED SO SOON GIVEN THE ECONOMIC TURMOIL.

>> WAS THIS BAD TIMING OR BAD POLICY AND YOU ARE SAYING BOTH.

OKAY.

SAUDI ARABIA'S RECENT DECISION TO JOIN WITH RUSSIA AND CUT OIL PRODUCTION BY 2 MILLION BARRELS A DAY WAS NOT WELCOME NEWS IN THE WHITE HOUSE OR AT GAS STATIONS AROUND AMERICA.

PRESIDENT BIDEN WARNED OF "CONSEQUENCES" AND VOWED TO RE-EVALUATE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SAUDI'S.

IS IT TIME TO CUT TIES WITH ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES?

>> WELL, WE HAVE ECONOMIC TIES, WE HAVE POLITICAL TIES AND MILITARY TIES.

LET ME ADDRESS THE ECONOMIC TIES.

OUR TIES ARE PRIMARILY BECAUSE WE ARE STILL, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY DEPENDENT UPON SAUDI ARABIA FOR OIL F. IF WE WANT TO REDUCE THAT RELIANCE IN THE SHORT RUN, WHAT WE COULD DO IS INCREASE PRODUCTION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT RUNS COUNTER TO SOME OF OUR OTHER GOMES SUCH AS CLIMATE CHANGE.

IN THE LONG RUN, THE OBJECTIVE SHOULD BE TO BECOME LESS RELIANT ON OIL THROUGH ALTERNATIVE ENERGY SOURCES AND WE ARE GOING IN THAT DIRECTION.

BUT EVEN THAT FACES SOME HEAD WINDS WITH SOME IN CONGRESS.

SO, IN MY VIEW, I DON'T THINK IT'S PRACTICAL TO THINK THAT IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO REDUCE OUR ECONOMIC TIES TO SAUDI ARABIA.

>> WE ARE THE WORLD EATS BIGGEST OIL PRODUCER, RIGHT?

>> WE ARE AND WE COULD PRODUCE MORE POTENTIALLY WHICH WOULD REDUCE OUR RELIANCE FURTHER BUT ESPECIALLY THOSE ON THE LEFT, ARE BLOCKING ATTEMPTS TO DO SO.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT THIS BILL, WHICH HAS BEEN FLOATING THROUGH CONGRESS.

IT'S STILL IN COMMITTEE, I BELIEVE.

THE NO PEC BILL.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE PURSUED?

>> I THINK IT WOULD BE PROBLEMATIC.

I AS MUCH AS ANYONE, DO NOT LIKE DOING BUSINESS WITH AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES THAT DO TERRIBLE THINGS TO THEIR CITIZENS.

AT THE SAME TIME IT'S ECONOMICALLY LUCRATIVE.

WE SELL ARMS TO SAUDI ARABIA AND THEY SELL US OIL.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR OIL DOES NOT COME FROM SAUDI ARABIA SO I DON'T THINK THEY'RE A MADAME MAYOR SUPPLIER AND IT WOULD BE TOO MUCH OF A CONCERN.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE THING THAT CONCERNS ME, IS I THINK ECONOMIC INTERDEPENDENCE, BIG PICTURE IS GOOD BECAUSE IT HELPS WHEN TENSIONS ARISE TO DECREASE THE CHANCE OF WAR.

ECONOMIC INTERDEPENDENCE WITH CHINA HELPS PREVENT A MAJOR CONFLICT BETWEEN US AND THEM AND SO AS MUCH AS I DISLIKE DOING BUSINESS WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND HAVING ECONOMIC TIES, I DO THINK THERE IS A NET BENEFIT TO TRY TO PROMOTE WORLD PEACE AS WELL AS PURSUING... >> YOU MENTIONED ARMS SALES AND WE HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST ARMS SUPPLIER FOR DECADES.

I WONDER IF THAT MEANS THEY NEED US AS MUCH AS WE NEED THEM.

THOSE THINGS NEED TO BE MAINTAINED AND WE ARE THE ONES THAT CAN DO THAT.

CHAD?

>> I'M FINDING MYSELF AGREEING WITH RICK TOO MUCH MAYBE.

THERE ARE BETTER ALTERNATIVES TO NOPEC.

I TALKED SO MUCH ABOUT THE JONES ACT THAT EVEN MY WIFE IS GETTING ANNOYED.

>> I NOW KNOW WHAT THAT IS BECAUSE OF YOU.

>> IT'S A 100-YEAR-OLD POLICY THAT REQUIRES CARGO THAT IS SHIPPED BETWEEN U.S. SCE SEAPORTS TO OCCUR ON U.S.

BUILT SHIPS AND CREWED BY AMERICAN CREWS.

THAT'S A PROBLEM BECAUSE THE U.S.

DOESN'T MAKE OIL TANKERS AND SO THAT MAKES IT VERY COST PROHIBITIVE TO SHIP OIL FROM OUR GULF COAST STATES TO REFINERIES IN THE NORTHEAST.

SO THAT'S A LAW THAT NEEDS TO GO.

WE CAN ALSO EXPAND REFINING CAPACITY.

I THINK IT'S TRUE THAT THE U.S.

HASN'T BUILT A NEW GREEN FIELD OIL REFINERY SINCE 1977 AND SO THAT MEANS, INSTEAD OF REFINING OUR OWN LIGHT CRUDE OIL, WE REFINE HEAVY CRUDE OIL THAT WE HAVE TO IMPORT.

AND SO THE POINT IS THAT THERE ARE CLEANER AND MORE COST EFFECTIVE STRATEGIES TO OUR ENERGY SECURITY.

BUT WE ARE NOT REALLY CONSIDERING THOSE BECAUSE IT'S JUST CONVENIENT TO THINK OF SAUDI ARABIA AND OPEC MORE BROADLY LIKE SCAPEGOATS OR SOMETHING.

>> NOW IF WE DID REEVALUATE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA, WOULD THAT HELP, SARAH, DO YOU THINK, SPUR THE TRANSITION TO RENEWABLE FUEL?

RICK ALLUDED TO THAT.

>> I DO WISH THESE TWO CONVERSATIONS WERE DONE IN TANDEM MORE OFTEN.

I DON'T THINK THE MEDIA COVERAGE IS TALKING ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE BECAUSE I HAVE TO AGREE WITH RICK THIS ALL COMES DOWN TO TRANSITIONING TO A CLEAN ECONOMY.

AND THEN THAT WOULD HAVE SO MANY BENEFITS.

NOT ONLY WOULD IT MAKE US LESS BEHOLD EP TO THESE-- BEHOLDEN TO THESE PETRA STATES THAT HAVE TERRIBLE HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS.

WE COULD STABILIZE OUR ENERGY PRICES, WE COULD HELP SOLVE THE EXISTENTIAL PROBLEM OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

AS I SAID, WE DON'T HAVE TO COZY UP TO FOREIGN DICTATORS AND WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO WORRY SO MUCH THAT SAUDI ARABIA OR RUSSIA COULD JUST SWING OUR ELECTIONS BY, YOU KNOW, MANIPULATING OIL PRODUCTION.

SO I THINK THERE IS SO MANY BENEFITS TO GRADUALLY MOVING AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS.

AND IN TERMS OF LIKE HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA, I DON'T THINK SELLING ARMS IS IN THE LONG RUN GOOD FOR GLOBAL PEACE.

>> ALTHOUGH, BRINGING UP GEOPOLITICS, THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH CONTAINING OR OPPOSING IRAN IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD AS WELL.

>> BUT SAUDI ARABIA DIDN'T SUPPORT THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL, WHICH IS ARGUABLY THE SORT OF MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT HAS BEEN DONE, NOW UNDONE, TO TRY TO PREVENT THEM FROM GETTING NUPS.

SO I'M NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

SO I'M NOT SURE SAUDI ARABIA IS HELPFUL IN TERMS OF CONTAINING IRAN.

>> I WANT TO FOLLOW UP BROAFLY ON WHAT LUKE SAID BECAUSE I AGREE INTEGRATING CHINA, SAUDI ARABIA, RUSSIA INTO THE GLOBAL ECONOMY HAS BEEN HELPFUL.

THE OPPOSITE CASE CAN ALSO WORK F. WE AS A RESULT TO ISOLATE OURSELVES FROM THESE, WE ARE PUSHING THESE COUNTRIES TOGETHER PERHAPS INTO FORMING AN ALLIANCE THAT MIGHT MAKE DECISIONS THAT ARE NOT IN OUR BEST INTEREST.

>> IT LOOKS LIKE THE 20th CENTURY AND WORD CONFLICTS THAT GO FROM ECONOMIC TENSIONS TO MILITARY.

>> YOU ASKED EARLIER IF THE HURRICANES ARE CHANGING THE BALANCE ON CLIMATE CHANGES AND HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW DO WE GET CHEAPER ENERGY?

>> EXACTLY.

>> AND THEN JUST QUICKLY, BECAUSE SARAH MENTIONED GAS PRICES THAT POTENTIALLY AFFECT ELECTIONS, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN WENT TO SAUDI ARABIA IN JULY FAMOUSLY OR INFAMOUSLY AND FIST BUMPED WITH THE SULTAN, WAS THAT TRIP A DISASTER?

>> IT DIDN'T WORK OUT AS PLANNED.

THE CHIEF OF STAFF CHECKS GAS PRICES EVERY DAY.

IT IS IMPACTFUL ON THE UPCOMING ELECTION.

>> IT IS TIME TO GO TO OUR As AND FS.

>> MELANCHOLY F TO UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF ECONOMIC POLICY.

CAZENOVIA COLLEGE DEFAULTED ON $25 MILLION DEBT WITH BLOOMBERG REPORTING THAT NEW YORK'S PUSH TO PROVIDE FREE TUITION FOR LOW INCOME RESIDENTS AT PUBLIC COLLEGES WAS AT LEAST PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR CAZENOVIA'S DECLINE IN ENROLLMENT AND REVENUE.

I THINK THAT MIGHT BE OVERSTATING THE CAUSE.

BUT REGARDLESS, IT'S A SAD DEVELOPMENT FOR CAZENOVIA AND IT'S GOING TO BE FAR FROM THE ONLY SCHOOL THAT'S FACING FINANCIAL UNCERTAINTY.

>> SARAH, F. >> MY F GOES TO THE HORSE CARRIAGE INDUSTRY IN NEW YORK CITY.

THIS WEEK CARRIAGE HORSE NAMED RIDER PASSED AWAY.

IN AUGUST OF THIS YEAR, HE BECAME SOMEWHAT FAMOUS ON SOCIAL MEDIA BECAUSE HE COLLAPSED ON A SIDEWALK IN MID MIDTOWN MANHATTAN AND A BYSTANDER'S VIDEO WENT VILE AND HIS DEATH HAS RENEWED CALLS TO BAN THE HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGES AND SUBSTITUTE ELECTRIC ORIGINS.

THIS INDUSTRY HAS ITS SUPPORTERS BUT TIME TO STOP EXZ PLOITING ANIMALS FOR HUMAN ENTERTAINMENT.

>> LUKE.

>> MY F TO THE BUFFALO BILLS WHO ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK THEIR NEW STADIUM WILL NOT MEET GREEN BUILDING STANDARD MET BY OTHER NEW FOOTBALL STADIUMS.

THIS WOULD HAVE SAVED MONEY OVER TIME, BEEN MORE ENERGY EFFICIENT AND BETTER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH.

>> AND RICK, YOUR F. >> TO THE UTICA CITY SCHOOL DISTRICT ON TUESDAY THE SCHOOL BOARD VOTED TO PLACE SUPERINTENDENT BRUCE ON PAID LEAVE, HIRE AN INTERIM SUPERINTENDENT AND TO PAY A COMPANY TO DO AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION.

HE COUNTERED HE IS A VICTIM OF PERSONAL VENDETTA AAND HAS PROMISED TO SUE.

UNFORTUNATELY THE DISTRICT HAS HISTORY OF THIS TYPE OF DYSFUNCTION AND REGARDLESS WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG, IT'S STUDENTS THAT ARE GOING TO LOSE AS TIME, EFFORT AND LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY ARE GOING TO BE DIVERTED FROM THE PRIMARY GOAL OF TEACHING UTICA'S CHERN.

>> LET'S GO TO THE A.

>> MY A TO THE ARMORY SCARE FOR HOSTING A FUTURE WOMEN IN STEM SERIES.

FREE EVENTS TARGETED AT MIDDLE SCHOOL SCHOOLS WHERE FEMALE PROFESSIONALS WILL LEAD STUDENTS IN HAND RUN ACTIVITIES TO PEAK THEIR INTEREST IN SCIENCE CAREER.

JP W. INDUSTRIES WILL LEAD THE FIRST EVENT TOMORROW MORNING ABOUT WELDING.

ENCOURAGE THEM TO CHECK IT OUT.

>> MY A GOES TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA AND CONNECTICUT WHO MADE IT FREE FOR PEOPLE IN JAIL AND PRISONS TO MAKE PHONE CALLS.

PHONE CALLS FROM PRISONS CAN COST AS MUCH AS A DOLLAR A MINUTE OR MORE EVEN IN STATE.

THIS IS UNAFFORDABLE FOR MANY PEOPLE SO PRISONERS OFTEN GO WITHOUT PHONE CALLS TO FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

THAT CAN BE A LIFELINE FOR THEM AND RESEARCH SHOWS HELPS THEM READJUST TO LIFE AFTER INCARCERATION.

OFTEN THEIR FAMILIES, WHO ARE PREDOMINANTLY LOW INCOME AND PEOPLE OF COLOR, GO INTO DEBT SO THEY CAN STAY IN TOUCH.

CONNECTICUT'S LAW GOES INTO EFFECT THIS MONTH AND OTHER STATES SHOULD FOLLOW THEIR LEAD.

>> OKAY.

LUKE, YOUR A.

>> MY A GOES TO THE LIFE OF PATRICK JOHNSON, LONG TIME CIVIL RIGHTS AND COMMUNITY LEADER IN UTICA WHO DIED OF CANCER THIS WEEK.

>> AND RICK, YOUR A.

>> MY A GOES TO SYRACUSE ORANGEMEN.

FOOTBALL TEAM BEAT NORTH CAROLINA STATE 24-9 THIS PAST WEEKEND TO GO 6 HAD OF 0.

THEIR BEST START SINCE 1987.

CURRENTLY THE NUMBER 14 TEAM IN THE NATION.

THIS HAS BEEN THE MOST EXCITING FOOTBALL SEEN SEASON IN QUITE A WHILE.

GOOD LUCK TOMORROW AGAINST CLEMSON.

>> I'M EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

I WILL BE WATCHING.

SPEAKING OF FOOTBALL, YOU MENTIONED, LUKE, THE BILLS STADIUM NOT BEING GREEN AND STATS THE STADIUM THAT GOVERNOR HOCHUL SWUNG SOME FUNDING FOR.

>> A LOT OF PUBLIC MONEY GOING INTO THERE.

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN REQUIRED THAT THEY DO THIS LEAD STANDARD WHICH IS THE PREMIUM STANDARD FOR GREEN BUILDING.

>> I GUESS SHE WON'T BE RUNNING ON THAT.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO VIEW THE SHOW AGAIN YOU CAN VIEW IT ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FOR ALL OF US AT IVORY TOWER, HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.