- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been provided by South Jersey Industries.

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IBEW Local 102.

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Holy Name.

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Promotional support provided by NJBIA.

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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hey, everyone, Steve Adubato here, for the next half-hour, we're gonna be talking about building the skilled trades workforce, what does that really mean?

What are high-school guidance counselors talking to young people graduating about beyond traditional four-year college, higher-ed experiences?

There are a whole range of things we need to understand about the skilled trades, and we have three experts who are dealing with it from very different perspectives, first, Scott Shaw, President and CEO of Lincoln Technical Institute, Judaline Cassidy, founder of Tools and Tiaras and a plumber with Local Union #1 in New York City, and our longtime friend, Senator Joe Cryan, who is the chair of the Senate Higher Ed Committee, good to see all three of you, thank you so much for joining us.

By the way, let me disclose that Lincoln Tech is in fact an underwriter of our programming, Scott, let's talk about this, we had an offline conversation the other day about this, why is this such a pressing, important topic to explore, Scott?

- Sure, well, there's a huge gap out there, we hear from employers in New Jersey and frankly across the country that they just cannot find enough skilled tradespeople, which is holding back their businesses and not allowing them to grow as much as they could, and there are a lot of great jobs here in New Jersey that demand the skilled trades, and so, we're just hopeful and very excited by this renewed interest in the trades and we're just gonna try to hopefully get as many people into them because they do provide a great opportunity and a great career for many people.

- Got it, Senator, let me try this, you've been with us, as I said, many times, as the chair of the Senate Higher Education Committee, where do the skilled trades fall into that universe, please?

- On a variety of different levels, Steve, from partnerships with colleges that can utilize, and especially in the county college sector where you can develop those skills and trades, and work with the trades and the unions and the rest, what we're finding, though, Steve, is just that given the cost of higher ed, given the fears, whether it's in AI or other sectors, given what Gen Z and the next generation that are students that are coming in, not only from a workforce demand, as Scott mentioned, but from the ability to make sure that they have a financial future that's worth it, that there's an expansion and interest in the trade sector, that's good for New Jersey, good for the country, as Scott mentioned, with the shortages that are there, so higher ed as itself, as that four-year payback return-on-investment that we've talked about so often, continues to be more costly with student loan and the rest that the trades, and the options with the trades and the long-term future of them becomes more... Frankly more exciting for the young individual moving into the workplace.

- Thank you, Senator, Judaline, let me ask you this, when did you decide, when did you know that plumbing would be your profession?

How did that play out?

- How that played out is I grew up in the beautiful twin islands of Trinidad and Tobago, and I wanted... - Is the weather there exactly the same as New Jersey?

Nah, I'm only kidding.

(laughs) - No, oh, my gosh.

(laughs) - I'm only... Go ahead, I'm sorry.

- That was a big shock... Change for me, it still is, but the money motivates me as a plumber to go out in the cold weather, but I wanted to be a lawyer growing up and Wonder Woman, and my great-grandmother passed away, so the trades was the next best, absolutely free option, so I had a choice between electrical and plumbing, and I said to myself, "Electrical, you get shocked, plumbing, you get wet," and I chose plumbing and I've been loving it and madly in love with plumbing for the last 30 years, and that... - Because?

- Yeah, "because?"

- Why do you love plumbing?

- Oh, plumbing is amazing, I love to solve problems, that is one of the best things about plumbing besides the money, I love to solve problems, and it's... Especially having a learning disability, and I want kids who are listening or teachers, I'm dyslexic, and even having a learning disability, the trades fires up those neurons in my brain of seeing things differently and solving the puzzle, and most entrepreneurs are dyslexic, so it's also a part to entrepreneurship... - Is that true?

- Yes.

Yes.

- That... Okay, but Scott, as you listen to Judaline, I'm curious, you're smiling because?

- Well, because, I mean, that's... So many students feel the same way, not everyone should go into the trades, the trades isn't for everyone, but a lot of people enjoy the trades because every day, you're doing something different, you're helping people, you're solving problems, who doesn't feel a lot better when their toilet's working and it's been broken?

- By the way, can I get Judaline's mobile number right now?

- I know, so that's the real thing that happens every time I go to schools or I do a speaking engagement, everybody always wants my number more than they need the lawyer.

- I was... Hold on, first of all... - No, I know you're kidding, I know you kidding, but it is true.

- Okay, we're public media, I will not shill like that or try to get a... - No, no, no, I know you... Listen, I'm from construction, I know you're kidding, so it's okay, right, so we... But it's something that every time I go into rooms, I feel very proud being a plumber, and like he said, like a lot of kids, it's like I feel like the superhero Wonder Woman that I wanted to be, the trades give us that opportunity, and I feel as a country, we're doing a disservice to our country by not investing in skilled trades because we're gonna pay more, and then, we have to bring other people from other places to do these jobs when we have kids here that wanna do these things if they know it exists.

- That's right.

Scott, to pick up your point, how do we...?

Listen, whatever works for that young person, this Gen Z career issue, but how do we send the message, Scott?

And I'm gonna ask the senator the same question, how do we send the message to young people that there are options?

- Yeah.

That's a big thing, people don't know, or at least not enough people, we hear so many times... The average age of our student's 25, so a lot of them are more adults, and they say, "Boy, I wish I knew this existed sooner," and so, getting the word out is very important and one of the exciting things that we're seeing is that high schools, particularly here in New Jersey, are now reaching out to us to talk about the trades, three years ago, that wasn't the case, but now that the high schools are starting to talk about it, that's a good sign, and if we can bring some of the shop classes and other things back into the high schools so that students can feel and understand that this is something that really resonates with them, that will get more people into the trades, so it's really education, getting people aware of them, what's exciting, Steve, is that TikTok is doing a lot of this for us because there are a lot of young people showing what they can do in the trades on these videos and that's where the young people are, they're looking out on the social media and they're seeing how these people are having a fulfilling life doing something, they're not like me stuck behind a computer all day, you know, inside a cubicle, they're outside, they're in people's offices, they're moving around, every day is something different, always a different challenge, and as I said earlier, they also are solving people's problems, it's a wonderful craft and if you get good at it, as we just heard, you can do very well for yourself.

- Well, Senator, jump on this because Scott and Judaline lay out the opportunity, however, there's a practical issue having to do with economics, okay?

Senator, what do you see the role of government-sponsored tuition aid, grants, in this equation as we relate...?

As we talk about skilled workforce opportunities outside of traditional four-year college, Senator?

- Well, government needs to understand that there's even more of those partnerships that need to be there.

Steve, our vo-techs today have waiting lists, all right?

And that's a function of three things, one is the market... - Our vocational schools?

- Vocational schools have waiting lists these days, we've changed, higher ed by itself, the traditional four-year model from 2011 to 2025 has gone down significantly in terms of student interests and belief in return on investment.

Obviously, student debt has a huge factor in that and the things that come out, and let's face it, higher ed has raised its tuition around this state north of 30% in that timeframe, so we've made it unaffordable as well, when you look at the trades, those market conditions bring a couple things, one is the amount of retirements that are expected, you know?

Folks have a lot of gray hair in these things right now, there's a significant amount of retirements here... We look good with it, but folks have a significant amount of retirements, the options that are there, we need to look... Scott mentioned it, I can tell you, I know schools that are trying to partner with Lincoln Tech now because they can't afford to build their own shops, they can't afford to bring in that kind of curriculum and we're looking for those kind of partnerships, we need to, as government, expand more into that, whether that's in the higher-ed sector, or as I mentioned a little bit earlier, the county colleges have worked with the unions and others in terms of apprenticeships, expansion, certificates and those sort of things, but frankly, the market has driven, whether it's in cost in higher ed or whether it's in the need as Judaline puts out so well, right?

Everybody wants her phone number today, right?

The reality of it is you can't get a plumber, you can't get a glazier, and we know that.

Now, when you have the entrepreneurial spirit that many do, and whether it's fostered by an education in Lincoln Tech or whether it's fostered through an understanding of a good life that that Local 1 can provide, young people know that and they know that they come out... Look, the barrier is in the upfront cost, you mentioned TAG earlier, right?

You've gotta buy those tools... - Tuition aid grants?

- I apologize, yes, Steve, using the acronym... - Go ahead.

- Tuition aid grants, which are an expansion and part of the lifeblood of higher ed, can be more and should be more, we're gonna look at this, we're actually doing something in the next month or two with the labor committee on how we can expand it to have more opportunities for apprenticeships, the unions in particular, the carpenters, the electricians and others have certainly looked to expand this, but we know that there is a whole lot more opportunity for apprenticeships and things like that within the state that aren't filled yet.

- You know, Judaline, let me ask you something.

When I introduced you, I said founder of Tools and Tiaras, I'm acting like people know what that means.

- Yeah, it's an awesome program, and this is where I wanna fill the gap between when the kids are going to the apprenticeship or the vo-tech school, I start early, we start as young as six years old, right?

To 14, teaching girls that jobs don't have genders, we do that by having monthly workshops... - Jobs don't have what?

- Genders, and it's trademarked.

- Okay, got it.

- (laughs) Yes, it's, "Jobs don't have genders," because we want more girls to consider careers within construction, within these industries like automotive, repairing airplanes, pilots, so we start really young with girls six years old to 17 years old, and I go almost every month to a school and speak to boys and girls, and... About the trades and they get really excited, so where we're missing the gap is we're waiting too long, by the time they're 13, they're jaded, they don't really know, but if we get the tools in their hands at six years old and we put real tools, not Fisher-Price tools, we're not building the little home, they're using real miter saws, real soldering, they're welding, you could look on the website, and they really, really get to love it.

We have girls who are architects now that started eight years ago in our program, we have a girl who's gonna be a pilot, we have a engineer, we have a lot of girls that are on track choosing these careers as a pathway because of what we do at Tools and Tiaras, really young, six years old, tools in their hands.

- That's good stuff, listen, we are talking about building the skilled trades workforce, we're talking to Scott Shaw over at Lincoln Tech, the President and CEO of Lincoln Tech, Judaline Cassidy, founder of Tools and Tiaras, and also a plumber based in New York City, not in New Jersey, you're in New York City?

- Yes, we used to come to New Jersey, we had about three years in a row we did a camp there, but I had a hard time finding places to allow me to come do the camp for the week, that's what my struggle... And New Jersey parents keep bugging me to come back, but I have to find a space to bring... - You're in demand, you're in demand, my friend, and also Senator Joe Cryan, chair of the Senate Higher Education Committee, quick break, just a few seconds, we'll be right back.

- To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

We're back, folks, talking about the skilled trades workforce, Scott, let me come back to you.

You know, when I was listening to Judaline talking about young women, girls who were introduced to the trades, skilled trades, from your perspective, from what you've seen at Lincoln Tech, how has the gender issue played out?

Meaning, let me be more clear, are there significantly more women going into the skilled trades?

- Unfortunately, there are not significantly more women going in, probably our welding program has the most women in it, but still, the trades are stereotypically still very male, I wish more women would go into it, they do tend to be at the top of the class more times than not, they're very good students, they're very diligent, great with their hands-on, but we've even tried to promote more women coming into the trades, and it is difficult, it doesn't... It's gonna take a long time, but I think programs like Judaline's is wonderful because there's so many great opportunities for women, and we just need to promote it more and try to encourage more people to do it, and I think that hopefully, the social media, again, is gonna be connecting with young people and getting that message out, but it's still... We're probably... I hate to say it, probably 94% male and only 6% female.

- Wow.

Senator, let me ask you this in light of what Judaline and Scott just shared.

From your perspective, government can only do so much, right?

Right?

But when you hear that kind of... Those numbers, 94% to 6%, and obviously, the economy's tough for everyone, affordability is tough for everyone, and you know, anecdotally, and the statistics show it, that there's opportunity here, do you believe, Senator, that state government has any role to play in creating incentives, opportunities that would encourage...?

Potentially encourage more women to get engaged and involved in the skilled trades?

- Well, obviously, the answer to that would be yes, right?

'Cause we... The society... - But how could that even happen?

- Well, let me say, by the way, Steve, as you were having this conversation, what strikes me is that in the traditional four-year school in New Jersey, that that population today is north of 60% female in the student population.

- That's right.

- There's that swing that goes back and forth, and I suspect at some point, the pendulum will weigh out, and I think you do it the way you have to do it, you provide incentives, you provide education, I will tell you, Tools and Tiaras might be the coolest name I've heard in quite some time for an organization, but the effort behind it is something that needs to be followed up and it's kinda been learning in this program as well, that we're gonna have to learn to expand and try to do, but as you go through this, what I've seen, though, is that the marketplace, admittedly male-generated... Or male-dominated, is in fact trying to meet this demand moving forward, and I don't wanna misplace this, AI is scaring folks at a whole lot of different... - Let's talk about it.

Let's put it on the table, Joe.

- So you have higher ed students, right?

First thing you'll say is, "Are you concerned about a job coming out?

Are you concerned AI is gonna take your job?"

Every hand goes up.

By the way, same thing in high school.

Talk to high school juniors and seniors, "Are you concerned that AI might take a job for you?"

They're absolutely concerned.

One of the things in the appeals of a trade is no matter what AI does, we need a plumber.

No matter what AI does, you need a mechanic, you need... You know, I can rattle all those things on, there's job security in that, and I think that as a pendulum shows to that, I think it's one of those things we'll be able to market through that you have that consistency and that lack of fear moving forward.

In terms of marketing, shall I say, if that's the correct term, to that female student to do that, I think we've gotta figure out ways to do it, I'll be candid, I don't have them here before you, but they are certainly gonna be a focus and an effort right now.

- You know, Senator Cryan put it on the table, the AI issue, I wasn't sure we should get into it, but it's obvious we should, Judaline, let me ask you this.

Senator Cryan makes it clear AI is obviously having and will continue to have a massive, almost unimaginable impact on our lives, but you will need a plumber and AI will not be able to do much of what a plumber does.

To what degree do you...?

Again, we're in the media, we think about AI all the time, and the implications and the impact it has on our industry.

Is it in your world, AI?

Artificial intelligence?

- Yes, it is, I mean, a lot of plumbers... What I try to do with the kids is to show them how sexy the trades are with the technology we're using now, but part of the problem why women and girls are not coming to these careers is because we have to change the way... We have to meet people where they're at, so if you have a poster for a school or a program, and every picture is a guy and not a cute plumber like me, why would she want to come?

Like, seriously, like, she'd be like, "Oh, I don't..." Right?

People... That's what... If every plumber looks like Mr.

Clean, a girl doesn't think that she can be a plumber... - That's a good one.

- And it's really true, we see the girls, and at Tools and Tiaras, all the women who teach the workshops are women in their craft, they're only taught by women, whether it be a plumber, a welder, we have men who help us 'cause I wouldn't be a great plumber if my brothers didn't teach me, but we have them in the back helping us as mallies, so the girls come up and say, "Wow," even the girl who became a pilot, she didn't... She wanted to be a decorator, she met a female pilot and she was like, "Oh, I can see it," so some of those are the things we have to change to get the woman coming into Lincoln Tech, let there be women speaking to them.

- By the way, Scott, as you're listening to Judaline, to what degree is she a walking, talking...?

And by the way, when you said brothers, you did not mean... I don't think your blood brothers.

I think you meant your union brothers, right?

- Everybody, I call... We're all brothers in the trades... - Okay, just making sure.

- No, no, no, everyone, because I have a love of us in the trades, we are brothers and sisters.

- Got it.

- We are here fighting for this country, fighting for our infrastructure, we're fighting for the way of life, if we don't get these kids doing these jobs, it affects the whole country, so for me, it's a unity, brotherly, sisterly thing.

- Well, you are not lacking in passion and confidence, which we love.

Scott, when you hear Judaline, is she not a walking, talking advertisement, a powerful, credible advertisement for the skilled trades?

- She absolutely is, she's exactly what we need, someone that's passionate, knowledgeable, skilled and really wants to move the ball forward, and I agree with her 100% that we need to have better representation, and again, communication.

Just letting people know that these jobs exist and these are worthwhile, and you can be proud to have any of these jobs and they can lead to great success, and they're open to anyone, anyone that has a desire to work with their hands and do something is welcome, frankly, in the trades, it's just trying to break down some of these barriers that historically exist, but, you know, it can be done if we have more and more representation like Judaline out there.

-What is a dual enrollment program in high school and what does it have to do with the skilled trades, Senator?

- I'll give you an example of one, so you can go... You can be a junior or senior in high school, take the kinda... Take vo-tech classes that also provide... And take academic classes that give you county college credits and put you in a position where you're certified as well, Middlesex County Vo-Tech, for example, has a waiting list for these kinda programs, also allows you to move into a county college, get a more affordable degree and/or wherever else you wanna go, STEM programs do some of this as well, so you... Those dual certificate programs, those dual enrollment programs are positive on high school level, some of them are in the colleges as well, and they work well to give people a broadband way of options for the future.

- Last topic I wanna bring up, and if there's any other topic, feel free, but the last topic I've been thinking about is, let's put this out there, parents and the skilled trades.

So I've been blessed to have... My wife and I have three wonderful children and I have a son from my previous marriage, I'm gonna... Super candid, we promoted traditional college, and I'm not sure how I would've reacted if any one of our kids said, "Well, you know, I saw this, you know, Judaline Cassidy and I was motivated by her," meaning I... And it's only because we've gotten into this work and tried to understand a little bit that I'm more aware than I was before, but there is a preconceived... And I don't wanna take up any more time on this and have all of you talk, some of us need to understand that it's no way less than, it's just different.

Judaline, go ahead.

- Yeah, I mean, Europe let their students learn traditional pathways of regular careers and the trades, and we as parents and we as a country have to stop letting our kids see someone in their dirty... (indistinct) Or their helmets and think that they weren't smart enough to go to college, but just think about this, every person benefits from what we do, you go into a building and you trust that it's gonna stay up, you drive over a bridge, you trust it's going to... Everyone needs to charge their iPhone, they trust that it's gonna work, you trust all of those things and you actually want to believe that we are not smart enough?

Like, that doesn't make any sense, make that make sense, we are the backbone of this country and we have to teach our kids and the parents to stop thinking that we didn't go to college because we weren't smart enough... - It's not less than.

- Yeah, we wanted to work with our hands.

That's it.

- Sorry to interrupt.

We got about a minute left, Scott, go ahead, please.

- Yeah, so I think it is starting to change, a year ago this time, I spoke at a panel in Ridgewood, New Jersey where 99.9% of the kids are going to college, the room was packed with parents and all we were doing was talking about voc-technical education because so many of them have nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters that went to college and are not doing anything with that college degree and have debt, and they're looking for an alternative that feels much more secure, so even though they're surrounded by people going to college, people are coming to this realization that there are alternatives, and the reality is you can always go back to college later if you finally figure out why you're going and how it's gonna benefit you, but if you want to work with your hands or do something else and you're looking for a quick, fast way to get into the workforce with a career that you can have for your life, the trades is something you should look at, and again, I'm not saying it's for everyone, but it is a great option.

- Scott, to Judaline, to Senator Cryan, we cannot thank you enough and we'll continue doing important public awareness programming about education overall and different avenues that young people, and those who are entering at 25 as you said, into the profession at different ages for all different reasons, it's not less than.

It's just different.

I wanna thank all of you for joining us, we appreciate it.

- Thank you, Steve.

- Thank you, Steve.

- I'm Steve Adubato, and I wanna thank our very well-educated, informed audience for being with us.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by South Jersey Industries.

IBEW Local 102.

NJ Best, New Jersey’s five-two-nine college savings plan.

Operating Engineers, Local 825.

Eastern Atlantic States Regional Council of Carpenters.

New Jersey Manufacturing Extension Program.

Holy Name.

The Center for Autism And by The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

Promotional support provided by NJBIA.

And by NJ.Com.

- (Narration) Healing is never just about medicine and technology.

It has to go further than that.

It has to combine science with humanity.

It has to be our best medicine, combined with large doses of empathy, kindness, dignity and respect.

It has to be delivered by people who love what they do and who they do it for.

Holy Name.

Great medicine, soul purpose.