-This is -Cailin Marcel Manson.

-As you can see, -he's a hell of a conductor.

-And that's just one thing -he does.

-He's a baritone opera -singer, a long time -vocal studies -teacher, and has performed -at major concert venues -all over the globe.

-From the Conservatoire de -Luxembourg to Carnegie Hall.

-And while this tapestry -of talent is who Cailin is, -let's take a moment and talk -about who Cailin isn't.

-He's not this guy.

-Or this guy.

-He's definitely not -this guy.

-You know these guys, -the Mozarts, the Bachs, -the guys who maybe -come to your mind -when you think of big names -in the classical music -canon.

-But as history tends -to reveal in time, -these long dead white dudes -were, of course, -not the only guys or gals -in town -contributing to that canon.

-There was also this guy, -Chevalier, otherwise known -as the Black Mozart, -a nickname given to him -after his death.

-And there was this guy, -Julius Eastman.

-He was an openly gay black -composer in the 70s and 80s -in New York City, -whose avant garde -contributions -to the late 20th century -challenged classical norms.

-That is, until he died -penniless, homeless -and almost completely -forgotten in 1990.

And there was even this lady, Florence Price, who made history as the first African-American woman to have a symphony performed by a major -American orchestra.

-But she struggled -to get her flowers for it -all due to her sex -and her race.

Many of her compositions were considered -lost for years -until after her death, -only to be found -in some dilapidated -summer home in 2009.

-You get the picture.

-These are the lesser name- -dropped -powerhouse black folks -who paved the way for people -like Cailin to exist -and do his thing today.

-So today we're going to -talk with this guy because -you won't be forgetting the -name Cailin Marcel Manson.

-He ain't your average -maestro -I will sit in that room -with all those people -and I will -look at the altos.

-I'm like, -can you like y'all?

-I need some more Sarah -Vaughan in that sound.

-Can you stand up and show us -what is going on -over there?

And also, -are we matching?

-We're sort of matching.

-We got the beige memo.

-Certainly.

-I decided that -I wanted to do something -a little more blue.

-So I have these like cobalt -blue ankle boots -and this embroidered pants.

-And have this hashtag -corsets are daily -wear thing.

-Oh my God.

About like 5 -or 6 different corsets.

-I don't wear them every day -but frequently.

-So we wear that.

-That's so good.

-It's so good.

-When it comes to this world -world of classical music, -which you'll learn later -I too know a thing -or 20 years about -when it comes to -who's allowed -in, who's actively -welcomed in, -and who is genuinely -accepted, -Cailin has gone -beyond the basics of -being allowed, well -anywhere, -he is running this world -while shaping -this music his way.

-What is the liberation -we're looking for?

-We are looking -that we are looking for -black artists, okay.

-We're black -people as black artists.

-Is it -that we want to be able to -just tell our own stories, -or is it that we want to -tell whatever story we want?

-and Cailin is remaining -fully himself, -unapologetically and -unbothered through it all.

-I'm going to -try not to sip and do too -many Asmr moments.

-(laughing) -I'm sipping my coffee -right now.

-Listen, that's a whole -corner of the internet.

-We can go there -if you want to.

-From Vermont public, -this is Homegoings, -a show that invites you -to eavesdrop -on candid conversations -with people -who will challenge -what you think you know.

-I'm Myra Flynn, -today on the show, -A conversation -with Cailin Marcel Manson -about what it means -to command a space long -dominated by white men -armed with black skin, -a bit of Philly swagger, -and a corset.

-This is homegoings.

-We're a proud member -of the NPR network.

-Welcome home.

-Not to put you on the spot, -but I do have to mention -we did teach together -at Governor's Institute -for the Arts, -and I think at one point -we were sharing a wall, -and if we weren't, it -definitely sounded like -we were sharing a wall.

-Okay.

-And I just remember -waking up -to the craziest sounds -coming from your room, -and I think I learned later -they were vocal warmups, -but I might have -thought you were dying.

-I'm just saying - -You know what's really funny -is, remember -when we were at lunch, like, -what was it?

-Was Hazel -and all those, like, -they were like -two floors down -and they're like, -yeah, we heard Cailin -warming up too, because, -like, -oh, I hear you will be cut.

-Because I think it's also -because the vent -from the shower.

-I think -it's because of the you.

-Im here trying to -explain the physics.

-No.

I'm going to go ahead -and say it's the you.

-But yeah.

So so so -there are a couple things.

-I mean, I do this thing -now where I just kind of -check in with my, -with my voice.

-And I say, my friends -laugh at me.

-I say, Is Mariah in there?

-So what I do is, -so what I do is I, -I suck air in while -I close the vocal folds -because I want to, -I want to feel how easily -I can get the finer -edges of the folds -to approximate.

-And that tells me, -like I would -so I could do something -like this.

-And if I can do that easily, -I can always make it happen.

-But if I can do that easily -and I'm like, -like I just did right there, -I'm like, oh, -it's like I'm Mariah's here.

-Mariah's in there.

-That's good.

-But so there are some things -that I do, -which are like -they call the false -vocal folds, things -which are -like some overtone stuff.

-So I do a hum -and I move the, -I move my tongue -up and down in the back -and back -and forward in the middle.

-Something like this.

-unnie, something like that.

-Just so I can feel the -resonance happen already.

-That is.

-Are you a didgeridoo?

-You sound like -a whole instrument.

-Like a drone instrument?

-That's so cool.

-So I do stuff like that -just to feel where -the resonance is.

Okay.

-what is it you do?

-Because I don't think -it squares -with how you're dressed -historically, right?

-Well, so okay, I have -I do multiple things.

-So I'll just say like singer -you can pretty much do -whatever, right?

-I mean so like I cannot sing -like you saying -I call myself a singer.

-But anyway, we'll get -we'll get there.

-Still, this thing is -the singer I conduct.

-But I also feel like -being an academic -and, and an educator, -and then the other thing is -just, -you know, arts management, -I wouldn't call -it being an impresario, -because that seems like -a little too, -Snidely Whiplash for me.

-Okay.

-Like, -I don't do it -then all the things, -but but, you know, -I think someone, -someone -actually used this term -in reference to what I did, -which I thought -was interesting.

-They called me -a cultural architect.

-Wow.

And, like, it's stuck.

-That's beautiful.

-So sort of building -all of these bridges between -different institutions -and communities -and stakeholders to -either get them to dream -a little bigger -and see what was possible.

-And I think you're -still leaving something out, -though.

-Classical music is again, -this is couched in -classical music, right?

-Yes, in the world -of classical music.

-But, I mean, yeah, -there's -just so much about you -that stands out -in this world -that has always kind of -notoriously -not even just looked -the same -or sounded the same, -but really made an effort -to create like, a right -and a wrongness -absolutely around -going outside of that box.

-So please tell us all -how did you arrive here?

-this started -very early.

Okay.

-So there -there was an interesting -moment where the, former -highs of, like, -this person who taught -at the high school -that I went to, -but I never had her for a -class.

She wrote my mother, -this had to -be maybe 6 or 7 years ago -on Facebook -because I just posted -something I was doing, -and she wrote to her saying, -like, I just I never -you don't remember -me, whatever.

-But I just wanted -to tell you -about -how much of an amazing -mother -you must have been -for your son to show up -in three piece -suits every day, -because we were not rich, -but I decided I wanted to -dress up for school.

-The school's my job.

-I shit you not.

-I would wear a big cloak -and a cape -or whatever to school.

-And I was like -throw it off and toss it.

-And she was like that.

-That was it.

-So it started there.

-Okay.

It's just -it was always in you.

-So it's it's always in me -to dress that way.

-And I was always.

-And I was going to say -something -about like, in my 40s, -I'm in my 40s.

-I think I've -turned more into this.

Like, -cause I -like quasi contemporary, -but also like fantasy thing.

-So which is why I always -I love brooches and -and buckles and corsets -and things like that.

-But but I like long lines -in the way flow.

-But when you go into -classical music, -you first you do feel like -you have to prove something.

-You have to imagine, -you know, you do have to -you go through -all these steps, -you train, -you learn all the languages.

-Went to study -over in Austria.

Right.

-So for classical musicians -particularly -and particularly, -you know, black -classical musician, -classical musicians -of color.

-There's this thing that -you feel you have to do.

-To prove that you belong.

-And some of that has to do -with, -you know, -do you put your blackness, -you put your other -ness on the shelf -while you learn the style, -the expectations, -the etiquette.

-Right.

But I found myself -sort of it.

-This happened in the early -the early aughts.

-I'm dating myself, -by the way.

-You're you're in your 40s.

-It was like.

-But, but, -but but I still feel the -I do what 20 year -olds or or late -teens are almost like, -where I noticed -I just noticed something -like, -okay, I am, -you know, cis male whatever.

-And I have to wear -a penguin suit -while the ladies over there -get to have these poofy -things or whatever, they get -to do whatever they want.

-And I'm sitting here -like dirt, dirt.

-And I was like, -no, not for you canned that.

-So I just started -I had some friends -that I had made through -productions at first, -and they were costumers -and they loved to dress me.

-And so I was like, hey, -do you have anything -you've like been dying -to make?

-Like a garment -you've been dying to make?

-for years, -they created things -for me to wear, and, -and I just started wearing.

-And the things that I would -wear almost, like, dared -people like, I -I look better than -the penguin suit.

-Matter of fact, -I look better than, like, -what I'm wearing -is more striking than what -the ladies are wearing.

-So I dare you to say -something to me right?

-And say you're -not supposed to wear that.

-But did they?

-No!

-Nobody said anything -that they wouldn't dare.

-And this is in Austria.

-But everywhere it's just.

-And I started doing that -when I was in Europe, -when I was, -when I was singing -and in Bremen and, and, -and then just -when I came back -to the States, -I just like people say -I'm like, -I have not I have not worn -the penguin suit -for the better part of 20 -years, at least 18 years.

-And I'm not going back.

-Oh my goodness.

-So you've -clearly tackled that -and how you show up -and your presence -and what you wear.

-How are you tackling -that same outside of the box -thinking and mentality -and that right, -and wrongness -we were talking about -in what you do -in your conducting -and in your art?

-there -is this thing about the arts -where, we're expected by -to like, innovate -and do all this other stuff.

-But in classical music -especially, -there is this thing -where it's like, you're -definitely commodified, -like you're -you're a singer, -you're a conductor.

-And once you like, once -you conduct you, -it's very rare -that you keep singing if -or if you I say, -and if you are a conductor -that sings, you're probably -They assume -you're a choral conductor.

-Like you -must just work with singers.

-But I'm -an orchestral conductor, -and that's my training.

-My training is as an -orchestral conductor.

-I've worked with choirs -like I was -with the Bennington -County Choral Society -and NGIA.

-And because I'm like, I'm -an orchestral conductor, -that is a singer, -and I know how to teach -people how to sing.

Right.

-So it works that way.

-But I take -it can take companies -and boards of directors -and agents, -agents in particular, -especially in the aughts -when I was really starting -my career internationally.

-Like, it's -they find that really -difficult -to wrap their head around.

-Like how do you do -all these things?

-How can we market you?

-Is it like like, -oh girl, why you so fly?

-Or is it like, -we don't know?

-We don't know what to do?

-Or is it even worse?

-Is it like -we can't take one seriously -if you're doing so many?

-I mean, for me, -I would say -from an agent standpoint, -that's not the issue, -but from companies, -Absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, -they need you to fit.

-They need you to fit -in a particular way.

-even now.

-I think -what's really jarring -is that the higher -the tier, let's say, -what you tier really just -means budget level.

-Interestingly, -the less provincial -I've been treated.

-You know, -I find that -like mid tier and low tier -They've bought -the conventions -a little more whole hog.

-I think it's -because they're trying -to prove themselves.

Right.

-Because they're not -on the top tier.

Right.

-And so there's a lot -more of like, -I don't know, what's the -word like self-censoring.

-Yeah.

Maybe.

-Right.

Censoring yourself.

-Yeah.

Yeah.

-And so I, I can't tell you -many conversations -I've had when I'm talking -to like, a medium tier -or a low tier orchestra.

-And they refer to me -as a choral conductor -and I'm like, -you completely skipped over -the fact that that was -not what I did in my resume.

-Interesting.

Like -they just assume, -you just assume.

-So we're going to put you on -for the Google concert.

-I'm like, no, no, you do, -you do sing.

I do sing.

-But that's not why I came to -y'all for.

-Yeah.

You know, got it.

-so there is some of that.

-Yeah.

-I kind of push it.

-Yeah, yeah.

-You know, -you have to remind people -of who they're dealing with.

-And who they're talking to -and what your expectations -are about how you should be -treated.

Right.

-And that you do belong -here.

I belong here right.

-(hip hop piano music) -I have a -classical piano background -and then switched over -to being a singer songwriter -myself.

-And the fear of just, -you know, -I get this jazz chord -I'm going to play.

-It was like, -is anybody watching?

-Is anybody looking?

-And we can get more -into that later.

-But yeah, -but you know, I'd really I, -I'm having like a homie -question for you -just like black person -to black person honestly -previous to you -being -in this classical world -tell me about -Cailin and music -previous -to the classical world.

-I mean, are we all listening -to usher?

-So this is so this is -interesting that classical -the classical music -piece was always present -interesting, -which is different.

-So, so amongst many of our, -you know, you know, black, -you know, -brethren and sisters.

Yes.

-You know, -if they started singing, -they started -singing in the church, -particularly -the black church, -some of them, -for my mother, -who I feel like -I'm still trying to keep up -with, you know, -was in her third career -as a Lutheran clergy person.

-Hi, mom.

-Because I'm -sure you got to watch this.

-She left the black church -before I was born.

-Actually, because she felt -like the person, the -the god she encountered -when she read and study -the Bible was not -what she was hearing.

-And so she went in, -so she became Lutheran, -and I was raised in -what was then arguably, like -one of the oldest -German founded -Lutheran congregations -in the country.

-Like were soldiers -from the Revolutionary War -buried in the cemetery -outside -the church.

Real old.

-it was an ethnically mixed -congregation.

-It was also a reconciling -in Christ congregation.

-So it was a -it was a congregation -that actively supported -LGBTQ families.

-Okay.

-So I - and it had two -female pastors.

-So this is what -I was raised in.

-pretty revolutionary, right?

-So in one minute -we would be doing -we've come this far by faith -and you know that.

-And then the next one -would be like, -(singing in German) -In the same church -service.

Yeah.

-So I've always had both.

-And for that -to be my experience -and to be in a place -like Philadelphia -where there was always, -I mean, WEBE Da Boys -wrote about the Philadelphia -Negro.

-Like, there was always -this very strong -culture of only African -American classical music -going on, like Mother Bethel -Congregation Zion Baptist.

-the Clayton White Singers, -I mean, like, -there were at least 2 -or 3 choirs -that were all black -and all classical, -when I was growing up -in Philadelphia.

-So I didn't have such -a switch, such a switch, -and I didn't have to feel -that I needed to belong -in that sphere because I -had examples in front of me.

-Right, right.

-But but when I was like, oh, -I think I actually like -when I do this for a job, -it was like, yeah, I just -wait a minute, -you want what?

-Oh yeah.

-So we would not be -catching you at the club -then in Philly during -any of these times?

-So you just -that you gravitated -towards this world -and stayed in it?

-Well, I gravitated -toward the world -in my high school years, -but I was, you know, -I was a nerd.

I nerd it out.

-I was really into foreign -languages and mythology -and so I see this for you.

-I was I was that child.

-I was that child -that literally, like, -my dad was an environmental -chemist, like I would -we would stay with him for -parts of the summer.

-And I was that child -that literally, like, -took his old Encyclopedia -Britannica -and read the whole thing.

-Like, -this is my summer reading.

-That was that was me.

-So, you know, -and my friends, -when I was in college, -they wanted to hit up like -clubs in the gayborhood -in Philly or whatever.

-And I was like dragged -kicking and screaming.

-And I was younger -than everybody.

-I was 3 or 4 years.

I'm -going to everybody.

-I was not legal.

-They were.

-But I presented as older, -so they never carded me, -but they carded them.

-OK, we are getting -all of the T now.

-We're getting all of this -T okay.

-So so yeah it was so -but interestingly enough -because I was at the club -and I knew how to dance.

-You know me, -my brother two step well -and I grew up around the hip -hop culture too.

Okay.

-That's the other thing.

-So my brothers -were very much into it.

-My brother Lamar is, -extremely well known spoken -word artists, -one of the original Russell -Simmons Def Poets, -Black Ice, so like -that was a world that was a -part of what I was doing.

-Amazing.

And you will -be connecting me -with Lamar.

Yes.

-After this.

-Okay.

Yes.

Wonderful.

-Austria.

So, so -I feel like -I know I have like a good -I have, like a good picture -of a young Cailin and -you know, the, -the surroundings, like, -which sounds so magical.

-Like to have that many black -classical choirs -in one area.

-But what took you -to Austria?

-How did you get there?

-Oh, Lord.

-So, you know, -I could get, like, -the vainglorious -one is like, well, you know, -I applied for this, -apply for a fellowship, -and I got a scholarship that -supported me to get there, -and all that.

-But really, what what -what drove me to Austria -And studying -at the Mozarteum, -which is the school -that was founded -by a foundation -founded by Mozart's wife.

-Wow.

to preserve his music.

-And then it became -this school.

-I ended up there really -Because, I mean, -I was exceedingly young, -so, you know, -I started college, by my -I started college at 15.

-Wow.

I finished early.

-I, I graduated -from grad school -a few months after I was 20.

-Brag about it and but I was -when I was young.

-Yeah.

-And I didn't really know -what I, I didn't know -what my next steps were that -talking about challenges.

-So I had a voice that was -a little more mature -for my age, -that belied my age.

-I could learn music -really, really fast.

-because of that, -the things that I felt good -for me to sing -were not necessarily things -that the establishment would -hire me for at that point.

-So I needed to figure out -what to do.

-You had a gap.

-You had some time.

Yeah.

-I had to figure out -what to do.

-And I was singing recitals -and doing concert stuff -and blah, blah, blah, -but just local stuff, -at Philly and I, -and there were things -there was some, -you know, trouble -in, you know, my, -in my household life.

-And so I just needed I, -I went to the minute -that I had an opportunity -to get off of the soil -and go to an environment -where I didn't know anyone, -I took -it, I took it, and I ran.

-And while I was -there, like right away, -I had like -immediate imposter syndrome.

-Yeah, immediate -imposter syndrome.

-And and not because -and that was -it was such -a learning experience for me -because I left -I left my undergraduate -really, -really despising education.

-Like, I felt like -I was jumping through hoops -that the school, -while I appreciated, -I appreciated -what I was learning -and I had great mentors -and great teachers there, -I felt like I was -always just trying to be -who I was, do what I felt -I was compelled to do, -but not quite fitting into -the box of what they felt -I should be doing.

-But then over there, -I just felt like, -wow, I'm surrounded by all -this music -all the time -and performing all the time.

-I've got these -great teachers.

-I'm literally like, -I look out -of my practice room -and there's freakin -this floral garden -and The Sound of Music -in the background.

-Yeah, you know, -and it was just, -I felt myself kind of doing -this, like, just kind of -walling myself -in, closing myself in, -about 3 or 4 months -in when they decided, -they decided, I did not.

-They decided that I was -going to include a major -in orchestral -conducting in my studies.

-I was there for - -as an opera major, opera -and musical theater major.

-I was like, wow, -this is actually the -ethos is actually completely -different here.

-When I was in the States, -when I was in my undergrad -and even doing competitions -and stuff like that, -you know, I felt like -I needed to prove myself.

-I felt like I needed to show -that this young black boy -from Northwest Philadelphia, -had it going on -or at least knew -what he was doing enough -to be trusted -with opportunities.

-Right?

-And over there, -the ethos was -you wouldn't freakin be here -if we didn't think -you belong, right?

-You already made it.

-You're here.

Yeah, like.

-And so now, -now that you're here, -learn -what you need to learn.

-And also, once you learn -what you need to learn, -get the fuck out and do it.

-I mean, which was, -which was like, oh, wow.

-And it, it gave me and -and they were training -everyone that way.

-And, and I was going to say -it sounds like true -equal treatment, -which is like as a -black person you're like, -what do I do?

-What do I do with my hands?

-Like, this is -and that's the thing, -I think there's a great -there's a great book -by Juwita Garai -called like post-traumatic -slave syndrome.

-And, and I was feeling -a lot of those things.

-Right.

-Like some, -some of the things -she talks about, -just like you're, you're -I was constantly on this -and I was young, so honest.

-Right.

But I was constantly -on this alert.

-Like, I'm like, who?

-When is the other shoe -going to drop, right?

-When are they going -to be like, -wait a minute, -you snuck in or someone -you only got here because -someone in power -liked you or -You know what I mean, right?

-Of course, -people, someone's -going to come with that -question about like, -why are you truly here?

-And when that didn't happen, -And not only that -didn't happen -but they were like, -youre so - -you've got so many skills -that we want -to help you grow.

-Because -I have been conducting -since I was in high school, -but I kind of -put that on the shelf -while I was studying -to be a singer.

Okay.

-But they saw that -and they're like, no, -bring it back off the shelf.

-Come on, come on.

-And we were going to -give you this world class, -you know, education to help -you do it.

-That must have felt amazing.

-Yeah, yeah, -yeah, it was, it was -I felt incredibly -seen there.

-Arguably for the first time -while I -was running -away, by the way.

-(lofi music) -while I was, like, trying to -get away from my whole, -problems with the family -and finances -and all the other stuff.

-I was trying to -just get away from America.

-Yeah.

-While I was, -I was at a place that I felt -completely saw me, -at least creatively, -and I was inventing myself -there, like I was claiming -who Cailin was as a young -adult in this place -that had nothing to do -entirely with -really what I came from.

-So that was -kind of an empowering thing -and also a little weird.

-Yeah, I had to go -so far away from home to -get back to self, in a way.

-So, your identity -in all of this, it -Gosh, -it sounds like it's been -squeezed and stretched -and also, like, completely -justified -and and had a lot of beauty -and beautiful experiences.

-Was your queer -identity -feeling as confident -as your identity as -a musician during this time?

-I feel like I really dug -into my queerness once -I, I feel like I entered -the profession full time.

-Because I felt like it's -not - and -Trust me, it's not this, -It's not that I didn't, -you know, -do what I needed to do -and scratch -An itch -that needed to be scratched.

-And I had relationships -and stuff like that.

-I mean, -but I, I found that I, I, -I was focused and I, -I mean it like I, -while I was exploring -queerness and how I wore it -and I think -that's but let's just -talk about that.

Sure.

-there are two things -that happen, -I think, with queerness, -especially in queerness -in America.

Right.

-Like there's this idea -that, you know, -we are the rainbow and it's, -you know, and everyone, -but there's not -I mean, there's a lot of -friction within that.

-And I found myself -in the late 90s, -struggling to see -how I, being a young queer -person, -fit into the prevailing -queer culture.

-That's one of the reasons -why I didn't like -I was dragged -kicking and screaming -to the clubs.

Right?

-Because, -you know, my friends - -I would see my friends -who would be, you know, -with a Rice Krispie -treat in hand, -wearing their, -you know, fleece -pajamas to class.

-I was never going to -show up to class like that.

-Literally -almost changed themselves -into anime characters -with hair -that look like soft -serve to go to the club, -because that's what was, -I guess, attractive -or what was expected.

-And you could see it.

-Or freeing maybe?

-Although I did find that -there was visual - -There's a lot of visual -similarity, amongst -people of a certain age -that I saw -in these environments.

-Whereas I with my -I had locs at the time.

-You did not.

Yes, -I did, I had locs never.

-Yes, yes I did.

-My pictures weren't -getting the pictures.

-You have to dig.

-Show this picture!

-Yeah.

You have to dig.

-There's always this -one moment every semester -where students -must Google me or something, -and they're like, -oh my God, you had hair.

-And I'm like, okay, -you know, but also locs -like I had locs.

-Yeah, But I was there -and they were long -too, like, wow, I'm here.

-So I had them -up, you know, Big Ponytail -and I -just couldn't remake myself.

-But they wanted me to go.

-So I was like, -okay, I'm going to go.

-And they would be out on -the dance floor and I would -And there was something -about -being on the dance floor -or whatever, like, -I love to dance.

-I would bop with my mom -and family reunions like, -cut it up.

-There's a great -there's a great video, -this great -Instagram of me teaching -the entire Putney School -the Electric Slide, -by the way.

-Okay, -we're going to find it.

-(bass driven music) -But being crowded like that -constantly, -like with people kind of -in your personal space, -the way I presented, like, -I dressed -more formally and I ended up -actually sitting.

-I enjoyed it, but I didn't -get on the dance floor.

-I was sitting at the bar -talking to some of the older -queer men -that were just at the bar.

-Yeah.

Just chillin.

-Just chillin.

-I got to know -the bartenders.

-They came to know that one -because my mom -bartended her way through -University of Pennsylvania -like that - -I knew what liquor I wanted.

-I was like, can you?

-They're like, oh, okay.

-Okay young man.

-What do you want?

-I was like, -it's been a hard day.

-I need a kettle -One dirty martini.

-Yeah.

They're like, -I'm like, yes.

-And dirty, dirtier -the better.

Okay.

-Noted that, you know, like, -it's been a hard day, -So I had that experience -as a young queer man -that just felt like I was -I was struggling -to figure out where I fit -into the sort of the queer -landscape of things.

-And and I felt that.

-And because I felt that so -strongly, I kind of didn't -focus on it very much.

-And I focused on achievement -and not because not -because I felt -anyone required me.

-That's the thing -I didn't feel like -anyone required me -to achieve.

-But achievement was -achievement -was my safe place.

-Achievement was like, -I can do this, -I can learn this music, -I can write these papers.

-I can memorize these roles.

-I can sing -these recitals off book.

-Let me, let me, -let me hit that.

-And it wasn't really until -like I said, I was done -with my schooling and -entered into the profession -and then realized oh crap, -Like what -am I singing about?

-What am I, what am I making -music about?

-What am I trying to express?

-I think about -when we talk as black people -And its like, oh gosh, -theres -so many conversations -out there of like, oh, -how is it working -in a sea of whiteness?

-And it's like we learned -how to navigate that -forever ago because -you figured out some hack -to not have to code switch -very, very early on.

-Like, -even though you didn't know -everything -you were ready to learn.

-But you didn't -stop being yourself -and you allowed yourself -some slow self-discovery -which, like, -please write that book -because so many can use -that.

-All of this to say, -I think what I struggled -with in the classical world -is just like playing -all the music -of some of these old, dead -white people that not only -are they old and white, -but also problematic.

-And also - Wagner - -there you go, Wagner.

-Wagner, anyone?

-Oh my goodness.

-and on top of that, unmoved, -unchanged, really kept -in a sacred way of playing -and performing these pieces.

-And, as a black man, -my question for you -is definitely like, -how are you -waking up every day -and dealing with that inner -struggle -of playing these old, -dead, problematic -white men's music?

-So I can say -one of the issues that I've, -I felt like I've combated -and and and still fight -is particularly -classical music is this idea -and this is where I think -DEI went a little awry in -the classical music world.

-Only went to half -measures.

-Our most recent movement.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the -most recent developments.

-Is that and rightly so.

-There are a number of, -you know, -African-American composers.

-Think about Florence Price, -William Grant still.

-Leslie Adams, Ulysses Kay, -Julia Perry, like the, -you know, Margaret Bonds.

-That should have always -been played -as part of the -American music lexicon.

-Right, right.

-But what ends up -happening is you -you specialize them, -so they become special.

-We're going to do an all -black composers -concert, right?

-We're going to do an all -female composers concert.

-We're going to it's -I don't want to - -tokenizing them -box checking all of that.

-Right.

-And the real transformation, -you know, I talk about -like what is the liberation -we're looking for?

-The real -transformation is like -you don't normalize -when you specialize.

-Can you say that?

-But slower.

-What is the liberation?

-What is the liberation -we're looking for?

-We are looking -that we are looking for -black artists, okay.

-We're black -people as black artists.

-Is it -that we want to be able to -just tell our own stories?

-or is it that we want to -tell whatever story we want?

-Because to me, that's true -Liberation, is not saying, -oh, you're black, -so you can only tell stories -that look like you -or that you can only tell -stories that we understand -you to be the experts of.

-Because that's not really -liberating to me, -is that, yes, -I want to be able -to tell my story, -but actually -I can use your music -and tell my story too, I can -literally be on a stage -and be the supreme -Norse god as a black man -and have all of -that dimension and all that -psychological development -and all of that symbolism -rest in my very brown, -very black body.

-And in order to do that, -I don't have to leave.

-What comes with that.

-I think it was -really telling -when we were going -through the pandemic.

-And so many of, -our fellow artists -of course, were struggling -because there were -no performances going on.

-I was still the music -director of the Bennington -County Core Society, -and I was the music director -of the Keene -Chorale in New Hampshire.

-You know, -pretty white spaces and, -and, and these -that even pretty, like, all -white really they might have -a couple, a couple here -and there.

Yeah, yeah.

-But had been basically going -to the marching orders of -this black man.

-How's that feel?

-Right.

Yeah.

-Well and it -but it was telling -because it was -a very different story -than other like like -I go to these board meetings, -theyre all white people -but I say -this is what this is, -this is how -we need to meet this moment.

-You know, -this is what we need to do.

-I'm not going -to do a virtual choir, -but I am going to share, -you know, I'm going -to we're going to connect.

-We're going to remember -why this is important to us.

-We don't need to show -anything.

-We don't need -to do anything.

-But we're going to connect.

-We're going to come back out -of this -and we're going to do, -you know, -the ordering of Moses, -you know, -which is by Robert Nathaniel -Dett, Black -Canadian composer.

-We're going to do -all of these things.

-I'm going to bring these, -black classical artists -to this area, -not because or whatever, -but because, you know what?

-At the end of the day, -they are and they have been -actually being black.

-They probably have exceeded -the level -of some of the many artists -that you've been exposed to.

-But I'm not going to -bring them up -Just do the little black -piece.

-They're going to do Bach -and they're going to do -Handel -because what you need to see -is that these are people -that carry -that tradition -And in classical music, -it's not just about -doing black music or music -by black people, -but the way forward, if -we're really going to do it, -is you have to hand over -power of curation -to black people.

-Right?

-And that means, yeah, -we haven't heard enough -black, -we have not heard enough -black people conduct -Beethoven five.

-I know white people think -that they've heard it enough -because it's been there.

-But you haven't -heard the way I do it.

-You haven't heard the way -Anthony Parnther does it.

-We bring something of -ourselves to that music -and how we do it, -especially when you're like -a mature black artist -and you don't give a crap.

-like you're like, what?

-Like, the we -do not care club?

-And I and I literally, -I mean, I literally sit -there, I will sit in Keene -Chorale - -We talk about how I bring my -blackness to this like, I, -I will sit in that room -with all those people -and I will -look at the altos, -I'm like, -can you like y'all?

-I need some more Sarah -Vaughan in that sound.

Wow.

-And they're like, -oh yeah, we -because they listen to her -you know, -we're singing Mendelssohn -and I'm talking about Sarah -Vaughan.

-You know, -I'm telling the Sopranos -they need to bring more -Ethel -Merman -into their sound.

-when I -was, I had great teachers.

-I didn't hear -any of my teachers -using those type of similes, -but they come from -my experience, -my multifaceted -musical theater, -man of the theater, black -raised in hip hop, -listening to mom's jazz -and soul experience.

-And I bring that -into the classical space.

-And they, as white -people from New England, -are still receptive to it -because -in some ways, me -being my whole complete self -invites them -to be themselves, too.

-Could you sing us something -that you find profound -and or means -something to you, -or maybe even speaks to -some of what we've been -talking about here today?

-Oh, so I was thinking -about this, -I would just love -to hear you sing.

-So.

So there's something -it's interesting -because it's kind of it -kind of fits.

-So what was it yesterday?

-Was yesterday, Yom Kippur.

-And there's this piece.

-It's borrowed by Maurice -Ravel called Kaddash.

-and I, it's I'm going to -what can be accompanied -by piano, -but I'll sing just -a little bit of it.

Sure.

-Yithbara'kh Weyischtaba'h -weyithpaêr weyithroman, -weyithnassé weyithhaddar, -weyith'allé weyithhallal -!scheméh dequoudschâ beri'kh hou, -!l'êla ule'êla mikkol bir'khatha -weschi'ratha touschbehata -wene'hamathâ -daamirân ah!

Be' olma ah!

-Ah!

-Ah!

-We imrou.

-Amen -Wow, wow.

-Thanks so much -for joining us.

-If you want to continue -to be a part -!of the homegoings family, stay -in touch at homegoings.co -and subscribe -to the homegoings podcast -wherever -you listen.

Take good care.