>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY THE  MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, IT IS LEGAL.

WE'LL EXPLORE HOW THE STATE SHOULD GROW ITS RECREATIONAL  CANNABIS INDUSTRY.

>> GOVERNOR: [INAUDIBLE]  THEY CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN SO MANY WAYS.

>> Gene: AN AWARD WINNING CAREER SPENT LOOKING AT THE  SCIENCE OF THE PAST TO BETTER INFORM THE FUTURE.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

WE HAVE A FASCINATING INTERVIEW COMING WITH HISTORICAL  ASTRONOMER WILLIAM DONAHUE.

HE SPENT HIS CAREER STUDYING THE  GOLDEN AGE OF ASTRONOMY AND WAS RECENTLY HONORED BY THE AMERICAN  ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.

THE LINE OPINION PANEL EXAMINES  THE TROUBLING PRACTICE OF ENCRYPTING AND DELETING OFFICIAL  RECORDS AT THE CHILDREN, YOUTH AND FAMILIES DEPARTMENT ALONG  WITH THE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS.

THE GROUP ALSO IS TALKING ABOUT  WHY MORE PARENTS ARE CHOOSING HOME SCHOOL COMING OUT OF THE  PANDEMIC.

WE START WITH NEW MEXICO'S NEW  CANNABIS LAW.

HERE IS THE LINE.

IT WAS AN EFFORT DECADES IN THE MAKING BUT CANNABIS IS  OFFICIALLY A LEGAL SUBSTANCE IN NEW MEXICO.

YOU STILL CAN'T SMOKE IT IN PUBLIC PLACES BUT IT'S NO LONGER  A CRIME TO HAVE UNDER TWO OUNCES ON YOUR POSSESSION AS LONG AS  YOU'RE OVER THE AGE OF 21.

AND NEW MEXICANS CAN NOW GROW UP  TO 12 PLANTS AT HOME WITHOUT PERMIT IF YOU LIVE ALONE, AS  LONG AS YOU'RE NOT SELLING IT.

CANNABIS REGULATION ACT BECAME  THE OFFICIAL LAW OF THE LAND ON TUESDAY.

QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW  THE INDUSTRY WILL RUN ARE FAR FROM ANSWERED.

HERE TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS, THIS WEEK'S VIRTUAL LINE OPINION  PANEL, WE THANK THEM ALL FOR PREPARATION FOR THIS WEEK'S  SHOW.

STARTING WITH REGULAR AND  ATTORNEY SOPHIE MARTIN.

WE ALSO WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW  MERRITT ALLEN OF VOX OPTIMA PUBLIC RELATIONS AND BRING BACK  DAN MCKAY, CAPITOL BUREAU REPORTER FOR THE ALBUQUERQUE  JOURNAL.

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

THERE IS A LOT OF EXCITEMENT IN  THE AIR, HAHA, ABOUT THIS DEVELOPMENT AND THE ECONOMIC  IMPACT OF THE NEW INDUSTRY BUT IT IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE STILL  AND AS WE TALK ABOUT A LOT ON THIS SHOW, WE DON'T KNOW YET  WHAT SOME UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES MAY BE.

WILL THIS BE A DAY WE ALL LOOK BACK ON IN 20 OR 30 AS A MAJOR  LANDMARK FOR NEW MEXICO?

IS IT THAT BIG?

>> Merritt: TODAY ISN'T.

I THINK WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO.

WE HAVE A LOT OF MURK TO WORK THROUGH AND IT WAS A SHAME  BECAUSE THIS TIME LAST YEAR I THINK WE KNEW WHAT WAS COMING  UP.

WE KNEW WHAT WAS COMING UP IN  THE LEGISLATURE.

AND SO BY THE TIME LEGISLATION,  DRAFT LEGISLATION GOT TO THE REGULAR SESSION, IT WASN'T  READY.

IT DIDN'T PASS.

WE GLOMMED TOGETHER A SPECIAL SESSION, LEGISLATION WASN'T  GREAT AS YOU LED IN.

IF YOU HAPPEN TO MAGICALLY HAVE  MARIJUANA IN YOUR POSSESSION RIGHT NOW, THAT IS OKAY, BUT WE  HAVE NO REAL PATH FORWARD ABOUT HOW THAT MARIJUANA COMES TO BE  IN YOUR POSSESSION.

SO, WE ALSO HAVE A TREMENDOUS  AMOUNT OF DEPENDENCE ON FEDERAL JOBS WHICH ARE ALSO -- YOU  CAN'T HAVE A FEDERAL JOB AND BE USING MARIJUANA.

YOU CAN'T HAVE A SECURITY CLEARANCE AND BE DOING  MARIJUANA, SO, I THINK, PERHAPS, JULY 1, 2022, COULD BE A BIG DAY  BUT NOT TODAY.

>> Gene: QUICK POINT.

COLORADO  HAS A MASSIVE FEDERAL PRESENCE AND THEY ARE WORKING THEIR WAY  THROUGH IT.

CANNABIS SALES WON'T HAPPEN  UNTIL APRIL 1, AS WE KNOW, BUT THERE IS A LOT TO FIGURE OUT  BEFORE THEN.

THE REGULATION AND LICENSING  DIVISION IS WORKING ON RULES FOR PRODUCERS, PROMULGATING THOSE  THINGS.

WHO NEEDS TO GET GROWING SOONER  RATHER THAN LATER.

ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.

THOSE RULES HAVE TO BE FINALIZED BY SEPTEMBER 1, THE DAY AFTER  TOMORROW IN TIME WHEN YOU ARE RULE MAKING.

HOW FEASIBLE IS THAT TIMELINE?

ARE WE RUSHING THIS OR DRAGGING  OUR FEET.

WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF IT AS YOU  WATCH THIS?

>> Dan: YEAH, YOU KNOW, THERE  ARE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE THAT FEEL IT IS NOT  HAPPENING AS FAST AS IT SHOULD.

SOME STATES THEY HAVE DONE  MARIJUANA LEGALIZATION THROUGH BALLOT MEASURES AND THAT GIVES  REGULATORS VERY LITTLE TIME TO PREPARE FOR IT.

IN THIS CASE, YOU'RE SEEING BOTH THE STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT  SCRAMBLING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO PREPARE FOR THIS.

ONE OF THE KEY DEBATES THAT I'LL BE WATCHING IS HOW CITIES AND  COUNTIES DEAL WITH CANNABIS REGULATIONS.

THEY CANNOT OPT OUT ENTIRELY BUT CAN SET REASONABLE RULES ON  WHERE THESE BUSINESSES MAY OPERATE AND THAT KIND THING AND  THAT IS GOING TO RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT DO YOU WANT CANNABIS  STORES IN DOWNTOWN OR HISTORIC AREAS, THAT SORT OF THING.

SO WE ARE GOING TO SEE A DEBATE ALL ACROSS THE STATE, NOT JUST  IN SANTA FE.

>> Gene:   SOPHIE, INTERESTINGLY, REGULATION AND LICENSING HAS  BEEN COLLECTING PUBLIC COMMENT ON THIS FOR A WHILE AND  SUPERINTENDENT LINDA TRUJILLO SAYS THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS  SEPTEMBER THING, BUT THERE IS STILL A LOT OF CONFUSION AND  CONCERN FROM PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET IN THE BUSINESS, YOU KNOW.

THAT IS THE BIG PROBLEM HERE.

HOW DOES THE STATE AND RLD  HANDLE THE NEED TO EDUCATE THE COMMUNITY WHILE ALSO COMING UP  WITH RULES AT SUCH A FAST PACE?

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT -- I CAN  COUNT FOUR MAJOR BALLS IN THE AIR THESE FOLKS ARE TRYING TO  JUGGLE.

>> Sophie: IT FEELS THERE IS A  CART BEFORE THE HORSE ELEMENT TO THIS.

IT IS NOT LIKE WE DIDN'T KNOW AS A STATE THAT THESE ISSUES WERE  COMING UP.

DEADLINES WERE COMING UP AND  PEOPLE WERE GOING TO NEED TO KNOW.

WHAT, UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK HAPPENS IS IN THE ABSENCE OF  INFORMATION, IT IS THE ALREADY ESTABLISHED BUSINESSES THAT ARE  IN THE BEST POSITION.

I DON'T KNOW.

I AM NOT TAKING A SIDE HERE BUT THAT ARE IN THE BEST POSITION TO  MOVE FORWARD.

WHEREAS, THE FOLKS WHO ARE  HOPING TO ENTER THE BUSINESS ARE SCRAMBLING FOR DETAIL.

I THINK IT IS ESPECIALLY NOTABLE FOR INSTANCE THAT THE CITY OF  SANTA FE HAS SAID, YEAH, WE ARE WORKING ON IT BUT THEY SEEM  PRETTY FAR BEHIND IN THE CONVERSATION.

AS OPPOSED TO SOME OF THE OTHER COMMUNITIES HERE.

THAT IS GOING TO BE A BIG MARKET THERE IN SANTA FE.

SO, THAT IS A DEBATE.

THOSE ARE DETAILS THEY REALLY NEED TO NAIL  DOWN.

>> Gene: MERRITT, PICK UP ON  WHAT SOPHIE SAID IN THIS REGARD, MICRO BUSINESSES, OF COURSE, IS  A BIG PART OF THE CONVERSATION, THE EQUITY ISSUE MENTIONED OVER  AND OVER OF THE SPONSORS OF THE CANNABIS REGULATION ACT.

SOPHIE JUST LAYED OUT A CLEAR THING, IF YOU HAVE MONEY NOW,  YOU CAN GET REAL ESTATE AND GET IN THE GAME.

WHAT IS THE IMPACT FOR THE SPONSORS, WHAT THEY ENVISIONED?

IS IT WORKING OUT THE WAY THEY ENVISIONED AT THIS POINT?

>> Merritt: I THINK SIMPLY BY MAKING THE COST FOR A LICENSE  $2500, THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE EASE OF ENTRY EQUAL FOR  ALL.

NOT ENOUGH TIME HAS BEEN SPENT  AND THAT JUST MAKING ME FEEL FRUSTRATED.

EVERYONE KNEW THIS WAS COMING UP IN THE 2021 SESSION.

THERE WAS A PANEL CREATED TO LOOK AT THIS AND THE LEGISLATION  THAT WENT FORWARD WAS JUST THROWN TOGETHER AT THE LAST  MINUTE.

SO EITHER THIS IS GOING TO BE  FREE MARKET CAPITALISM OR IT IS NOT.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

>> Merritt: WHAT WE ARE SEEING  IT IS FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND, TO USE A CLICHE, IT IS WHAT  IT IS.

>> Gene: YOU CAN SEE THE  FORCES FORMING.

IT IS A DIFFICULTY.

LAST QUESTION WE HAVE TO JET FOR  ANOTHER TOPIC.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE  WATCHING FOR AS INDUSTRY AND LICENSING AND RULE CREATION  MOVES FORWARD?

ANY PARTICULAR THING YOU'RE LOOKING FOR?

>> Dan: A LOT OF LEGISLATORS ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN EQUITY AND  WHO ENDS UP DOMINATING THE MARKET, WHETHER BIG OUT-OF-STATE  CORPORATIONS COME IN AND HAVE SORT OF THE INITIAL CAPITAL AND  INVESTMENT TO BE ABLE TO START AND GET BUSINESSES GOING OR IF  LOCAL ENTREPRENEURS ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE AS WELL.

SO, I THINK THERE PROBABLY WILL BE FURTHER LEGISLATION THAT  LOOKS AT SOME OF THOSE, THAT TRIES TO PROMOTE LOCAL  ENTREPRENEURS OR SMALLER BUSINESSES AND WE'LL HAVE TO SEE  HOW THAT PLAYS OUT.

>> Gene: ONCE THINGS ARE  ESTABLISHED, IT IS HARD TO ROLL BACK OR FIX.

WE WANT TO CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION NOW ABOUT CANNABIS  IN NEW MEXICO.

OF COURSE, STATE OFFICIALS WILL  BE LEANING HEAVILY ON OTHER STATES THAT HAVE ALREADY  LEGALIZED TO IDENTIFY BEST PRACTICES, BUT WHAT DOES THE  RESEARCH SAY ABOUT HOW TO EFFECTIVELY ESTABLISH AND RUN A  RECREATIONAL USE CANNABIS INDUSTRY?

THAT IS A QUESTION THE GROWING FORWARD TEAM HAS BEEN  RESEARCHING AS THEY GATHER INFORMATION AND INTERVIEWS FOR A  NEW SEASON OF THE AWARD-WINNING POD CAST.

CO-HOSTS MEGAN  KAMERICK AND ANDY LYMAN OF THE NEW MEXICO POLITICAL REPORT  RECENTLY TALKED TO ADAM LEVIN OF THE RESEARCH CENTER TO FIND OUT  WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY AND WHAT LESSONS NEW MEXICO CAN LEARN IN  THESE EARLY DAYS.

>> Megan: THANK YOU FOR JOINING  US.

>> Levin: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Megan: YOU HAVE LOOKED AT THE ISSUE OF SO-CALLED SYNTAXES FOR  STATE BUDGETS LIKE ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FOLLOWED UP WITH  STUDIES ON HOW RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA SALES FIT INTO THOSE  ANALYSES.

FIRST, LET ME ASK, IT IS  TEMPTING TO RAISE TAXES ON THINGS LIKE ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO  PRODUCTS AND A LOT OF STATES HAVE DONE THAT, BUT WHAT IS  INTERESTING IS USUALLY THEY ARE RAISING MONEY FOR PUBLIC HEALTH  PROGRAMS WHICH, IF SUCCESSFUL, WOULD HELP CURTAIL CONSUMPTION  OF THESE PRODUCTS AND THUS REDUCE REVENUE FROM SYNTAXES.

SO, HOW ARE THESE KIND OF TAXES PROBLEMATIC FOR STATE BUDGETS?

>> Levin: IT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

I DO THINK LIKE YOU WERE SAYING, FROM A POLICY MAKER'S  PERSPECTIVE THERE CAN BE AT LEAST COMPETING GOALS FOR  CURTAILING THE USE, FOR INCREASING REVENUE AND SO THERE  IS A BALANCE THAT NEEDS TO BE STRUCK THERE.

AND, STATE POLICY MAKERS NEED TO DECIDE IF THEY ARE DOING THIS  FOR PUBLIC HEALTH REASONS OR FOR BUDGETARY REASONS.

WHEN YOU'RE  TALKING ABOUT OTHER SYNTAXES LIKE ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, SOME OF  THE ISSUES FROM A FISCAL PERSPECTIVE ARE THAT TO KEEP THE  REVENUE INCREASING YEAR AFTER YEAR FOR THE WAY THOSE GOODS ARE  TAXED, YOU EITHER HAVE TO CONTINUE TO INCREASE THE TAX  RATE OR YOU HAVE TO HAVE INCREASED CONSUMPTION WHICH,  GOING BACK TO WHAT WE WERE SAYING EARLIER, BOTH OF THOSE  CAN HAVE, DEPENDING ON THE POLICY MAKERS' PERSPECTIVE, CAN  HAVE NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES OR ARE UNDESIRABLE ON THEIR OWN.

SO, THOSE ARE SORT OF THE ISSUES WITH YOUR TRADITIONAL SYNTAXES  LIKE TOBACCO, AND ALCOHOL FROM A BUDGET PERSPECTIVE.

>> Megan: HOW DOES -- IS IT FAIR TO COMPARE THESE KIND OF LEGACY  SYNTAXES TO CANNABIS?

WHAT ARE SIGNIFICANT  DIFFERENCES?

>> Levin: I THINK THERE ARE A  FEW DIFFERENCES.

FIRST OF ALL, WHEN YOU TALK  ABOUT TOBACCO, TOBACCO USE IS IN LONG-TERM DECLINE.

THAT IS ANOTHER REASON WHY TO CONTINUE GETTING REVENUE YOU  HAVE TO INCREASE THE RATES OR RELY ON INCREASED USE BUT IT HAS  BEEN IN LONG-TERM DECLINE.

MARIJUANA, YOU KNOW, IT IS HARD  TO MEASURE AT THIS POINT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FAIRLY APPEAR TO BE  ON THE SAME PATH.

IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE GOING  BACK TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH VERSUS REVENUE QUESTION, WHEN YOU'RE  LOOKING AT RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA IN MANY STATES IT HAS  BEEN PASSED BY REFERENDUM AND HERE BY LEGISLATION BUT IN MANY  STATES BY REFERENDUM.

SO, SORT OF THE PUBLIC SAYING WE WANT  THIS AS OPPOSED TO POLICY MAKERS SAYING WE WANT TO DO THIS OR WE  DON'T WANT TO DO THIS OR WE WANT THESE GOALS, THAT SORT OF THING.

THERE ARE SOME DIFFERENCES IN TAXATION.

MARIJUANA HAS A  VARIETY OF WAYS TO BE TAXED.

IT CAN BE TAXED AND STATES DO  TAX IT EITHER ON THE VALUE, EITHER ON THE VALUE OR ON THE  WEIGHT OR ON THE POTENCY.

SO, THOSE ARE SORT OF A VARIETY  OF DIFFERENT WAYS IN WHICH IT COULD BE TAXED AND TOBACCO IS  USUALLY JUST TAXED ON THE PRICE -- ON A PER PACK BASIS.

THERE IS NOT A LOT OF VARIATION HOW IT CAN BE TAXED.

THOSE ARE DIFFERENCES WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT LEGACIES AND TAXES ON  RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA.

>> Andy: ONE OF THE MODELS WE  HEARD ABOUT AS EARLY AS LAST YEAR SAID THAT THEY TOOK INTO  CONSIDERATION THE LIST OF SALES IN A POST LEGALIZATION  WORLD MEANING THEY ASSUMED SOME PEOPLE ARE STILL GOING TO  BE PURCHASING THROUGH ELICIT MARKETS.

DO WE KNOW WHAT KIND OF IMPACT THOSE ELICITED MARKETS HAVE ON  OTHER STATES AS FAR AS THE SALES GO?

YOU MENTIONED CALIFORNIA.

I WONDER IF THAT WAS PART OF THE  ISSUE PEOPLE ALREADY HAD A WAY TO GET IT BEFORE IT WAS  LEGALIZED.

>> Levin: THAT IS DEFINITELY A  BIG CONSIDERATION IN ALL OF THIS.

CONVERTING FROM THE BLACK TO THE LEGAL MARKET IS ONE OF THE  THINGS REVENUE FORECASTERS HAVE TO THINK ABOUT.

THAT ULTIMATELY HAS A HUGE IMPACT ON HOW BIG THE MARKET IS  AND HOW MUCH SALES REVENUE STATES TAKE IN.

IT IS COMPLICATED.

THERE IS NOT A GREAT WAY TO DO  IT.

ONE OF THE THINGS STATES HAVE  DONE GENERALLY SINCE RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA STARTED  POPPING UP IS LEARNING FROM OTHER STATES AND OTHER  FORECASTERS AND SEEING WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THEIR STATES.

SO, LOOKING AT STATES LIKE COLORADO AND WASHINGTON.

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE BLACK MARKET RECREATIONAL  MARIJUANA DOES TEND TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE EXPENSIVE THAN  IT IS ON THE BLACK MARKET.

THAT IS BECAUSE IT IS LICENSED,  TESTED THEN IT IS TAXED.

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT  POLICY MAKERS HAVE TO BE THINKING ABOUT IS WHERE TO SORT  OF SET THAT TAX RATE SO THEY CAN COAX PEOPLE FROM THE BLACK  MARKET TO THE LEGAL MARKET, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A GOAL OF  LEGALIZING RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA FOR ALL THESE STATES.

DEFINITELY IT IS A TRICKY ISSUE AND SOMETHING STATES ARE STILL  WRESTLING WITH.

>> Megan: YOU TOUCHED ON SOME OF  YOUR RESEARCH ON SOME OF THE BUMPS AND DELAYS OTHER STATES  ENCOUNTERED AS THEY RAMPED UP LEGAL RECREATIONAL  INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF THAT  WITH OUR STATE AGENCY PROMULGATING RULES AND  REGULATIONS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW SOME OF  THOSE SORT OF DELAYS IMPACTED THE REVENUE FORECAST AND REVENUE  AND HOW THEY HAD TO ADJUST?

>> Levin: SO, AT LEAST A COUPLE  STATES, OREGON AND CALIFORNIA, ARE THE MOST PROMINENT EXAMPLES  I CAN THINK OF.

THERE WERE -- IT TOOK A WHILE  LONGER THAN EXPECTED FOR THE MARKET TO GET UP AND RUNNING FOR  STORES TO BE OPENING AND AS A RESULT, FORECASTERS, THEY HADN'T  ANTICIPATED, SO TO START THAT WAS A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR TO WHY  REVENUE WAS OF THE -- REVENUE THAT WAS COLLECTED WAS BELOW  WHAT WAS FORECASTED.

I THINK THAT IN OREGON AT LEAST  I THINK THAT HAS PRETTY MUCH SMOOTHED ITSELF OUT.

CALIFORNIA MAY STILL BE GOING THROUGH THAT A LITTLE BIT.

BUT, I KNOW ITS PARTLY BECAUSE -- I KNOW IN OREGON THEY  HAD WAY MORE APPLICANTS TO GROW AND I THINK TO SELL THAN THEY  WERE ANTICIPATING SO THERE WAS A BOTTLENECK PROCESSING THAT.

CALIFORNIA, I BELIEVE HAS SOME MORE LOCAL REGULATIONS THAT  LOCALITIES COULD PUT INTO PLACE AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT LED  TO THE MARKET BEING DELAYED SO THERE ARE DIFFERENT REASONS BUT  DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT STATES HAVE SEEN.

>> Megan: SO GIVEN HOW THIS HAS PLAYED OUT ELSEWHERE, HOW SHOULD  POLICY MAKERS IN NEW MEXICO CONSIDER THE POTENTIAL REVENUE  FROM RECREATIONAL CANNABIS AS THEY DECIDE WHERE TO ALLOT IT OR  WHAT TO DO WITH IT?

IT SOUNDS LIKE FROM YOUR  RESEARCH YOU SHOULDN'T COUNT ON THIS AS LIKE A STABLE FORM OF  REVENUE EVERY YEAR.

>> Levin: THAT IS RIGHT.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING OVERALL A SMALL  PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL REVENUE.

IN COLORADO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN  FISCAL YEAR '20 THEY COLLECTED ABOUT 330 MILLION IN  RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA TAXES, WHICH SOUNDS LIKE A LOT BUT THE  TOTAL BUDGET IS SOMEWHERE IN THE 30 BILLION RANGE.

PERCENTAGE-WISE IT IS A SMALL NUMBER AND THAT HOLDS ACROSS ALL  STATES.

THE OTHER THING LIKE YOU WERE  SAYING, MEGAN, IS THAT POLICY MAKERS -- IT IS UNPREDICTABLE,  THE REVENUE, BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO FORECAST AND FOR ALL THE  OTHER REASONS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT POLICY MAKERS  SHOULD BE CAUTIOUS WITH BUDGETING MONEY.

THAT COULD MEAN PUTTING IT TOWARDS SAVING.

THAT COULD MEAN PUTTING IT TOWARD ONE-TIME SPENDING AS  OPPOSED TO RECURRING SPENDING THAT NEEDS A STEADY SOURCE OF  REVENUE EVERY YEAR, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT SURE HOW MUCH YOU'RE  GOING TO GET FROM RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA, IT MIGHT BE BETTER TO  PUT IT TOWARDS A ONE-TIME USE SUCH AS BUILDING A PIECE OF  INFRASTRUCTURE, SOMETHING WHERE IT DOESN'T NEED A STEADY STREAM  OF REVENUE EVERY YEAR.

>> Sophie:   SOME OF THE ISSUES ARE KIND OF BIG PICTURE ISSUES  FOR GOVERNMENT.

HOW WE SPEND MONEY, HOW WE  COMMUNICATE IN THE CONTEXT OF OPEN RECORDS AND THINGS LIKE  THAT.

>> Gene:   WHAT CAN SCIENCE, A FIELD THAT IS CONSTANTLY MOVING  FORWARD, LEARN FROM LOOKING AT ITS PAST?

WILLIAM DONAHUE OF ST. JOHN'S COLLEGE IN SANTA FE THINKS YOU  CAN LEARN AN AWFUL LOT.

HE IS A HISTORICAL ASTRONOMER  WHO RECENTLY WON THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY'S DOGGETT  PRIZE.

IT IS A CAREER SPANNING AWARE  AND FOR MR. DONAHUE THAT MEANS DECADES SPENT STUDYING AND  TRANSLATING IMPORTANT WORKS FROM THE SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTION, A  PERIOD WHEN EVERYTHING CHANGED ABOUT HOW WE CONSIDER THE SKY  ABOVE.

AS PRODUCER MATT GRUBS FOUND  OUT, MR. DONAHUE DISCOVERED MUCH ABOUT HOW GREAT MINDS LIKE  JOHANNES KEPLER RECONSIDERED THE SOLAR SYSTEM AND THE UNIVERSE.

>> Matt: MR. DONAHUE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING TIME TO TALK  TO US TODAY.

>> Donahue: MY PLEASURE.

>> Matt: THE IDEA OF HISTORICAL ASTRONOMY.

WHAT IS THAT WE CAN LEARN BY STUDYING PAST SCIENTIFIC  ASTRONOMICAL DISCOVERIES?

>> Donahue: ANCIENT GREEKS WERE  MATHEMATIZING THE HEAVENS IN THE FOURTH CENTURY BC.

PTOLEMY HAD CREATED -- FIRST OF ALL, HE HAD THIS VERY  INTERESTING PREFACE, WHICH WAS MODERN, AND WAS SAYING THAT  REALLY WE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT WHERE WE SEE THE PLANETS AND  STARS GOING.

WE ARE NOT REALLY ENTITLED TO  KNOW ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS ALL KIND OF SPECULATION,  THEOLOGY.

SO, WHAT THE JOB OF ASTRONOMY IS  IS TO CREATE A MATHEMATICAL MODEL THAT WILL PREDICT THE  THINGS THAT WE CAN SEE, WHICH IS REALLY VERY MODERN.

THERE ARE A LOT OF 20TH CENTURY SCIENTISTS LIKE DIRAC WHO REALLY  SAID ABOUT THE SAME THING.

IN A VERY SIMPLIFIED WAY BY  STUDYING THOSE OLD ASTRONOMERS, YOU CAN SEE HOW THAT APPROACH  DEVELOPED AND YOU CAN INCLUDE THAT IN A CURRICULUM THAT  ORDINARY UNDERGRADUATES CAN DO UNLIKE A LOT OF QUANTUM STUFF  WHICH IS COMPLICATED MATHEMATICS.

THAT IS ONE SIDE OF IT.

AND THEN ANOTHER IS THAT  NATURALLY THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO CAME ALONG AND SAID, YOU KNOW, I  THINK WE CAN ACTUALLY LEARN MORE STUFF ABOUT THE STARS THAN JUST  CREATING MATHEMATICAL MODELS.

KEPLER WAS ONE OF THOSE AND HIS  ADVANCED IN ASTRONOMY -- HE SET THE RESEARCH PATTERN FOR THE  NEXT 100 YEARS BY SAYING, LOOK, WE BELIEVE THAT THE EARTH IS ONE  OF THE PLANETS, SO THE PLANETS MUST BE LIKE THE EARTH SO THE  JOB OF THE ASTRONOMER, PLANETARY ASTRONOMER, IS TO FIGURE OUT HOW  THESE THINGS REALLY ARE MOVING AS PHYSICAL OBJECTS.

THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH FORCES, AND THAT MEANS WE HAVE  TO MATHEMATIZE FORCES.

NOBODY HAD EVER DONE THAT  BEFORE.

SO HE WAS JUST KIND OF MAKING UP  A SYSTEM.

BUT, YOU CAN SEE HOW HE SET THE  SCENE FOR NEWTON.

>> Matt: UP UNTIL THIS POINT IN  HUMAN HISTORY, THE ASSUMPTION, THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF  ASSUMPTIONS, BUT ONE OF THE BIG ONES WAS THAT ORBITS ARE  CIRCULAR.

AND IT WASN'T UNTIL 50 YEARS  EARLIER THAN THAT, WE THOUGHT, OH, WELL, THE EARTH IS AT THE  CENTER OF EVERYTHING BECAUSE WE ARE AT THE CENTER OF EVERYTHING.

WHAT A FASCINATING PERIOD OF TIME, I THINK, FOR SOMEONE TO  STUDY.

>> Donahue: IT WAS EXCITING AND  INTERESTINGLY KEPLER WAS JUST ABOUT THE FIRST OF THE SECOND  GENERATION OF COPERNICANS.

HIS TEACHER -- ALTHOUGH HIS  TEACHER TAUGHT TOMAK ASTRONOMY, HE WAS PRIVATELY A FOLLOWER OF  COPERNICUS AND OUTSIDE OF CLASS HE TAUGHT KEPLER -- HE HELPED  KEPLER LEAD COPERNICUS.

KEPLER HAD A LEG UP ON THIS.

HE ALREADY, AS A KID, AS A FRESHMAN IN COLLEGE, WAS  STUDYING COPERNICUS, AND SO HE WAS A JUMP AHEAD EVERYBODY ELSE  IN THINKING WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF MAKING THE EARTH  INTO A PLANET?

YOU KNOW, THEN ALL THESE PLANETS  ARE LIKE EARTH AND WHAT THEN?

>> Matt: HOW LONG DID IT TAKE  FOR THIS TO SORT OF BECOME ACCEPTED?

>> Donahue: IT WAS ABOUT 50 YEARS.

DESCARTES WAS REALLY BIG.

GALILEO WAS BIG.

KEPLER WAS NOT -- HE DIDN'T HAVE SUCH A POPULAR FOLLOWING BUT  WHAT HE DID WAS HE SET THE RESEARCH PROGRAM FOR THE NEXT  100 YEARS BY SAYING, LOOK, IF THE EARTH IS A PLANET MOVING  AROUND THE SUN, THEN THE PLANETS MUST BE LIKE EARTH SO WE HAVE A  WHOLE DIFFERENT KIND OF CHALLENGE IN OUR PHYSICS.

WE NEED TO BE ABLE -- WE KNOW ON EARTH THAT THINGS MOVE BECAUSE  THEY GET PUSHED AND PULLED.

IT IS NOT MOVING BECAUSE THEY  ARE MADE OUT OF SOME MAGIC SUBSTANCE THAT FLIES AROUND IN  THE SKY.

SO, WE NEED TO BASE OUR  CELESTIAL PHYSICS OR EXPLANATIONS OF PLANETARY MOTION  ON PHYSICAL CAUSES.

WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO  MATHEMATIZE FORCES.

AND NOBODY REALLY KNEW HOW TO DO  THAT.

KEPLER DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT  EITHER.

HE STARTED MAKING THINGS UP.

MAYBE IT IS KIND OF LIKE THE WAY A MAGNET WORKS.

SO HE HAD THIS WHOLE THEORY INVOLVING MAGNETS BUT EVEN AS HE  WAS WORKING ON THE THEORY, HE WAS SAYING, YOU KNOW, THERE IS  SOME PLACES WHERE THIS THEORY JUST DOESN'T WORK AND I DON'T  KNOW HOW TO FIX IT.

SO THEN HE SAYS, OKAY, SO IT IS  UP TO YOU GUYS OUT THERE WHO ARE READING THIS TO FIGURE IT OUT.

NEWTON WAS ONE OF THOSE GUYS.

>> Matt: IT CHANGES EVERYTHING.

THE STUDY OF HISTORICAL  ASTRONOMY AND THE TRANSLATION WORK THAT YOU HAVE DONE IS  SOMETHING THAT FIT INTO YOUR CAREER AT ST. JOHN'S WHICH IS A  GREAT BOOKS INSTITUTION.

FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH  THAT, CAN YOU EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE COURSE OF STUDY  AND HOW YOUR WORK IN HISTORICAL ASTRONOMY, IN GENERAL, SORT OF  FITS INTO THIS?

>> Donahue: MANY SCIENTISTS  THINK YOU DON'T LEARN ANYTHING BY READING OLD SCIENCE.

IT MAY BE ENTERTAINING.

IT MAY BE INTERESTING BUT YOU'RE GOING  TO GET WRONG FACTS AND THEIR APPROACH IS, WHAT WE ARE TRYING  TO DO IS GET MORE AND MORE ACCURATE EXPLANATION OF THINGS.

THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO THINK THE JOB OF SCIENCE IS NOT TO  FIND OUT THE FACTS, BUT TO TRY TO COME UP WITH A WAY OF  UNDERSTANDING THE UNIVERSE AND FACTS ARE A PART OF THAT BUT  HAVING THE UNDERSTANDING IS A HUGE DIMENSION OF THAT.

AND SO IN STUDYING OLD SCIENCES, WHICH IS WHAT WE DO AT  ST. JOHNS, WE STUDY OLD SCIENCES.

IN CHEMISTRY, WE REDO EXPERIMENTS THAT WERE DONE  HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO.

WE LOOK AT OLD OBSERVATIONS IN  ASTRONOMY AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE ASTRONOMERS WERE  THINKING.

WE ARE IN A WAY LOOKING OVER THE  SHOULDER OF A REALLY SMART PERSON CONFRONTING QUESTIONS  THAT NOBODY HAD EVER CONFRONTED BEFORE.

AND WE CAN SEE HOW THEY WENT ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THOSE  THINGS.

WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH A  MODERN SCIENTIFIC QUESTION, YOU'RE CONFRONTING SOMETHING  THAT NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN BEFORE.

SO YOU HAVE GOT THE JOB OF FIGURING THIS OUT.

IF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THAT BEFORE, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE  IN AS GOOD A POSITION AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS GONE BACK AND  LOOKED AT HOW NEWTON FIGURED THINGS OUT, HOW KEPLER FIGURED  THINGS OUT, HOW LAVOISIER FIGURED THINGS OUT IN CHEMISTRY.

YOU WILL APPROACH MODERN PROBLEMS BY SAYING, YOU KNOW, I  HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS A LOT OF TIMES WITH A LOT OF REALLY SMART  TEACHERS.

>> Matt: AT SOME POINT DURING  YOUR TRANSLATION, YOU DISCOVERED  THAT KEPLER WAS SORT OF WORKING BACKWARDS.

HE ANTICIPATED THAT PEOPLE MIGHT NOT AGREE WITH THIS AND HE  WANTED HIS CASE TO BE AS SOLID AS IT COULD.

THIS IS SORT OF THE DISCOVERY THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, THE NEW  YORK TIMES PICKED UP ON, THAT SORT OF THING.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

AND, HOW DID YOU SORT OF REALIZE, WAIT A  SECOND, THIS ISN'T DOING WHAT HE SAYS IT IS DOING?

>> Donahue: IT WAS JUST ONE CHAPTER IN ASTRONOMIA NOVA.

TOWARDS THE END HE HAD ALREADY DONE THE MAJOR SPADEWORK IN  ESTABLISHING WHAT THE GENERAL SHAPE OF THE ORBIT WAS AND HOW  THE FORCES HAD TO WORK IN ORDER TO CREATE THAT SHAPE.

I COULD SEE FROM WORKING THROUGH HIS -- REPEATING HIS  COMPUTATIONS THAT HE COULDN'T HAVE DONE IT THE WAY HE SAID HE  HAD DONE IT.

IT MUST HAVE BEEN JUST A  HORRIBLE MESS AS HE WAS FIDDLING WITH THIS NUMBER AND THAT NUMBER  AND HE CAME UP WITH THIS FINAL TABLE WHICH WAS VERY NEAT AND  NICE AND HAD ALL THESE POSITIONS OF MARS LAID OUT VERY -- IN A  VERY ORDERLY FASHION.

I WAS WONDERING HOW DID HE COME  UP WITH THAT?

AND I COULDN'T GET THEM TO COME  OUT UNTIL I TOOK HIS FINAL -- HIS FINISHED THEORY THAT HE  WORKED OUT.

SO I REALIZED, HE TOOK HIS  FINISHED THEORY AND PUT IT IN THERE AND I THINK WHAT HE WAS  THINKING WAS, IF I HAD -- IF I HAD BEEN ABLE TO DO THE  COMPUTATIONS THAT I WAS WORKING ON HERE AND IF I COULD HAVE DONE  THEM ALL PERFECTLY, I WOULD HAVE COME OUT WITH ALL OF THESE  POSITIONS BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THESE ARE THE POSITIONS OF THE  RIGHT ONES SO IT WAS A COMPLICATED THING.

IT WOULD NOT BE REGARDED AS LEGITIMATE SCIENCE NOWADAYS.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THIS IS 1604 OR SOMETHING AROUND THERE.

AND YOU HAVE TO CUT HIM SOME SLACK.

>> Matt: WHAT ABOUT THAT TIME ATTRACTED YOUR ATTENTION AND  WHAT ABOUT THESE WORKS?

>> Donahue: THERE WAS JUST A  HUGE CHANGE THAT HAPPENED THEN.

GIORDANO BRUNO EXECUTED IN 1600.

HE WAS A PROPONENT OF AN INFINITE UNIVERSE WITH THE STARS  BEING POSSIBLY CENTERS OF OTHER PLANETARY SYSTEMS AND, SO, VERY  MODERN LOOKING THING.

HE ALSO HAD SOME CRAZY IDEAS  LIKE TRYING TO CONVINCE THE POPE THAT THE POPE SHOULD ABOLISH THE  CHRISTIAN RELIGION AND GO BACK TO ANCIENT EGYPTIAN RELIGION AND  ALL KINDS OF STUFF LIKE THAT.

IT WAS UNDERSTANDABLE THAT HE  WOULD HAVE BEEN TRIED FOR HERESY AND BURNED.

BUT STILL BECAUSE BRUNO WAS ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE IDEAS, IT  WAS NOT REGARDED AS ALL RIGHT TO THINK THAT WAY, AT LEAST FOR THE  NEXT DECADE OR TWO, BUT YOU COULDN'T REALLY SUPPRESS THAT  KIND OF THINKING, ONCE IT WAS OUT OF THE BOX.

BY 1650 PEOPLE WERE SAYING, YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA OF EARTH IN THE  MIDDLE AND THE UNIVERSE AS A BALL, THAT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE A  LOT OF SENSE.

WE NEED TO BE THINKING IN TERMS  OF SPREADING THINGS OUT AND TRYING TO INVESTIGATE THE  UNIVERSE AS WE SEE IT AND NOT THE UNIVERSE AS WE IMAGINE IT.

SO, IN A PERIOD 50 YEARS THE WHOLE UNIVERSE CHANGES.

IT IS NOW REASONABLE TO THINK OF AN INDEFINITELY LARGE UNIVERSE.

WHAT I FIGURED OUT IN STUDYING THIS, I DID MY DISSERTATION ON  IT, WAS THAT THE REAL IMPETUS BEHIND THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO  WITH NEW PHENOMENA OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, IT HAD TO DO WITH  THEOLOGY, LARGELY.

>> Matt: INTERESTING, YOU HAD  SAID THAT A LOT OF THIS WORK IS TAKING PLACE IN RELIGIOUS  SETTINGS, WHETHER IT IS SEMINARY OR RELIGIOUS UNIVERSITY.

>> Donahue: AT THE SAME TIME, THE 30 YEARS WAR WAS GOING ON,  YOU HAD THE JESUIT COLLEGE MOVEMENT.

BY 1650, THERE WAS SOMETHING LIKE 500 JESUIT COLLEGES SET UP  AROUND EUROPE.

SO GENERALLY COLLEGES ALL OVER  THE PLACE.

AND, SO THERE WERE ALTERNATE  EDUCATIONAL MOVEMENTS GOING ON THAT WERE OFTEN THEOLOGICALLY  BASED AND THE PROTESTANTS HAD THEIR OWN SIDE BUT THEY WERE BY  NO MEANS RADICAL.

IN FACT, SOMETIMES THE CATHOLICS  WERE -- LIKE DESCARTES WAS EDUCATED IN A JESUIT COLLEGE.

AND A LOT OF THE EARLY CARTHUSIANS HAVE THAT KIND OF  BACKGROUND.

>> Matt: IS THAT THE REASON THAT  PEOPLE LIKE KEPLER WORRIED THAT THEY WOULD GET IN TROUBLE FOR  THE WAY THEY WERE THINKING OR THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME SORT OF  PUSHBACK?

OBVIOUSLY, THEY HAD SEEN WHAT  HAPPENED TO BRUNO.

>> Donahue: SEEN WHAT HAPPENED  TO BRUNO AND THEY HAD SEEN A LITTLE LATER WHAT HAPPENED TO  GALILEO, WHICH WAS NOT AS DRASTIC, BUT HE WAS UNDER HOUSE  ARREST.

IT WAS JUST RADICALLY DIFFERENT.

>> Matt: DID ALL THE SCIENTISTS KNOW EACH OTHER AND KNOW OF THE  WORK THEY WERE DOING?

>> Donahue: GALILEO AND KEPLER  KEPT AN EYE ON EACH OTHER.

GALILEO WAS MORE STANDOFFISH I  THINK BECAUSE GALILEO DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND ASTRONOMY VERY  WELL.

IT IS A STRANGE THING TO SAY  THAT THE INVENTOR OF THE TELESCOPE DID NOT UNDERSTAND  ASTRONOMY, BUT HE WAS NOT ABLE TO ACCEPT KEPLER'S IDEA THAT THE  PATHS OF THE CELESTIAL BODIES WERE NOT CIRCULAR AND THAT YOU  HAD TO BE CONSTRUCTING MATHEMATICAL THEORY OF FORCES IN  ORDER TO MAKE THEM WORK.

HE JUST COULDN'T WRAP HIS MIND  AROUND THAT.

KEPLER KEPT ON WRITING TO  GALILEO SAYING, YOU OUGHT TO DO THIS, YOU OUGHT TO DO THAT, AND  I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT SO AND SO, AND GALILEO WOULD  RESPOND WITH NOT WRITING BACK.

>> Matt: UNLESS HE LIKED WHAT HE  HEARD OR READ.

>> Donahue: WHEN GALILEO NEEDED  HELP, NEEDED PEOPLE WITH GOOD CREDENTIALS TO LOOK AT HIS NEW  TELESCOPE, THEN HE WOULD WRITE TO KEPLER AND SAY, I SENT A  TELESCOPE OVER TO PRAGUE AND I HOPE YOU WILL GET A CHANCE TO  LOOK AT IT.

KEPLER WAS ABLE TO SAY, YES,  THIS THING REALLY WORKS.

>> Matt: WHEN YOU FOUND OUT YOU  WERE WINNING THE AWARD OR NOW AS YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT DOES IT  MEAN TO HAVE THAT RECOGNITION.

>> Donahue: I WAS ASTONISHED  THAT THEY WOULD CONSIDER ME BECAUSE IT IS USUALLY TO  ESTABLISHED ACADEMICS, OTHER PEOPLE WITH DISTINGUISHED  ACADEMIC CAREERS, AND I HAVE HAD  A VERY ATYPICAL CAREER.

I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED TENURE  FROM ANYBODY.

>> Matt: LIKE YOU SAID, THAT  CHANCE REALLY AS YOU'RE GOING THROUGH KEPLER'S JOURNAL TO BE  IN HIS HEAD OR OVER HIS SHOULDER, SEEING WHAT HE SAW AND  THOUGHT.

>> Donahue: FORTUNATELY IT IS  NOT REALLY SO MUCH WHAT IS CURRENT IN HISTORY SCIENCE, BUT  STILL I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE AGREE WITH THIS, THAT THERE IS  ROOM FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY JUST WANTING TO STUDY THE IDEAS  AND UNDERSTAND HOW THOSE IDEAS DEVELOP AND HOW THEY MAKE SENSE.

AND MAYBE EVEN TO TRY TO HELP STUDENTS GET AN APPRECIATION FOR  THAT PROCESS BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE ONE OF THE VERY BEST  WAYS TO LEARN SCIENCE, IS TO BE AN APPRENTICE OF SOMEONE LIKE  KEPLER OR GALILEO OR LAVOISIER OR WHATEVER.

>> Matt: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING ALL THE TIME.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE.

>> Donahue: THANK YOU VERY MUCH  FOR DOING THIS.

>> Gene: THERE IS NO DOUBT THE  LAST 16 MONTHS HAVE TAKEN A TOLL ON NEW MEXICO'S PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

VIRTUAL AND HYBRID LEARNING HAS PUSHED EDUCATORS, STUDENTS AND  FAMILIES TO THE EDGE AND THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNANSWERED  QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT NEXT SCHOOL YEAR WILL LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF  MASK WEARING OR EXTENDED LEARNING OPPORTUNITIES.

OTHER IMPACT OF THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC IS A DRAMATIC INCREASE  IN HOME SCHOOLING IN THE STATE.

ACCORDING TO THE PUBLIC  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS THAT MADE THE SWITCH  TO HOME SCHOOLING NEARLY DOUBLED.

AND THAT SHIFT COULD COST THE ALBUQUERQUE SCHOOL DISTRICT MORE  THAN 50 MILLION-DOLLARS.

SOPHIE, DO YOU EXPECT THIS TREND  TO CONTINUE IN NEW MEXICO?

IS THIS A BLIP OR ONCE THE  PANDEMIC IS COMPLETELY OVER WILL  STUDENTS HEAD BACK TO PUBLIC SCHOOL?

HOW DO YOU READ THIS?

>> Sophie: I THINK IT IS A  COMPLEX ISSUE AND IT'S WORTH NOTING IT IS A NATIONAL ISSUE  NOT JUST HAPPENING IN NEW MEXICO.

AND THERE IS A LOT THAT GOES INTO THESE DECISIONS.

WILL PARENTS STILL BE ABLE TO WORK FROM HOME?

WHAT WILL BE THE STATUS OF UNEMPLOYMENT PAYMENTS?

CAN YOU AFFORD TO STAY HOME AND HOME SCHOOL?

WHAT PROGRAMS WILL CONTINUE TO BE AVAILABLE?

I THINK THAT IS PROBABLY THE MOST STABLE OF THESE ISSUES IS  THAT THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF PROGRAMMING AVAILABLE FOR KIDS  WHO ARE HOME SCHOOLING.

BUT ALL OF THESE THINGS WILL  COME INTO PLAY.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT  THIS PANDEMIC PERIOD, IT HAS BEEN ESPECIALLY HARD ON WOMEN,  THAT WOMEN HAVE HAD TO BEAR, YOU KNOW, A DISPROPORTIONATE COST IN  TERMS OF CARING FOR CHILDREN, HOME SCHOOLING, ET CETERA.

AND SO EACH HOUSEHOLD HAS GOT TO MAKE ITS OWN DECISION ABOUT CAN  IT AFFORD TO DO IT, WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS TO DOING IT.

AND CERTAINLY I REMEMBER ACTUALLY ABOUT A YEAR AGO I SAT  ON THIS PANEL AND SAID, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE GOING TO  BE STUDENTS WHO FIND THAT LEARNING FROM HOME IS BETTER FOR  THEM.

AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT WE ARE  HEARING NOW TOO.

I THINK I SOUNDED LIKE I WAS OUT  OF TOUCH BACK THEN BUT WE WERE ALREADY HEARING OVER A YEAR AGO  THAT SOME KIDS ARE DOING BETTER AT HOME AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT  WE ARE SEEING IN THIS DISCUSSION.

THE IMPACT, THOUGH, ON THE SCHOOL SYSTEM WITH SO MANY FIXED  COSTS, COSTS THEY WILL HAVE DIFFICULTY SHEDDING AS THEIR  FUNDING FORMULA MEANS THEY GET LESS MONEY, THAT IS GOING TO BE  A CRISIS FOR EDUCATION ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND IN NEW MEXICO IN  THE COMING YEARS.

>> Gene: THAT IS A VERY GOOD  POINT THERE.

DAN, IS PART OF THE FACT IS THE  FACT THAT PARENTS AND FAMILY MEMBERS, THEY WERE JUST SIMPLY  MORE INVOLVED IN THEIR OWN STUDENTS' EDUCATION OUT OF  NECESSITY, AS SOPHIE JUST MENTIONED, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE  PED HAS A SALES JOB TO CONVINCE THESE FAMILIES TO COME BACK TO  THE PUBLIC CLASSROOM GOING FORWARD AND ACTUALLY MAKE THE  CASE TO THESE PARENTS THAT IT IS BETTER FOR THEIR KIDS TO COME  BACK TO THE CLASSROOM.

THIS IS GOING TO BE KIND OF AN  INTERESTING DISCUSSION OVER THE SUMMER.

>> Dan: YEAH, NO DOUBT.

THERE ARE SOME BROADER  DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES THAT ARE AFFECTING -- THE NUMBER OF  SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN IN NEW MEXICO HAS BEEN DROPPING IN  GENERAL, SO I THINK THIS HOME SCHOOLING TREND IS CONTRIBUTING  TO THAT.

AND I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT, THAT  PUBLIC SCHOOLS DO HAVE TO PERSUADE THESE FAMILIES THAT IT  IS SAFE TO COME BACK, EFFECTIVE TO COME BACK, AND IT COULD BE  THAT SOME OF THESE FAMILIES DECIDE THAT, YOU KNOW, HOME  SCHOOLING WAS THE RIGHT CHOICE AND THEY WANT TO CONTINUE DOING  IT, BUT THERE ARE CERTAINLY INTERESTING TRENDS THAT ARE  GOING TO FORCE NEW MEXICO TO RETHINK SOME OF ITS EDUCATION  EFFORTS.

>> Gene: MERRITT, YOU KNOW,  DOUBLE EDGE SWORD HERE FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THEY GET FUNDING  FROM THE STATE ON A PER-STUDENT BASES.

THAT IS ANOTHER TOUGH PILL TO SWALLOW FOR DISTRICTS BUT THE  STATE DOES HAVE FEDERAL COVID-19 RELIEF MONEY TO COVER THEM IN  THE SHORT RUN.

BUT, IS THIS A TIME TO MAKE  ADJUSTMENTS MOVING FORWARD, THIS LITTLE WINDOW WHERE WE HAVE  FEDERAL MONEY COMING?

>> Merritt: ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS  EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IS PANDEMIC WAS THE RIGHT  TIME FOR RESET FOR PED, FOR APS, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN OVER  DECADES THE WAY WE ARE DOING THINGS IS NOT WORKING.

WE LOOK AT ANY NUMBERS AND EVERY ADMINISTRATION WE CHANGE THE  NUMBERS WE ARE LOOKING AT, WHATEVER.

WE ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY LIST.

AND PARENTS WHEN FACED WITH A CHOICE ARE WALKING.

AND IT IS NOT THE SAME TYPES OF PARENTS.

WHAT ALL THE NUMBERS ARE SHOWING, HOME SCHOOL FAMILIES  HAVE TRADITIONALLY BEEN LARGELY WHITE.

THAT HAS CHANGED.

ESPECIALLY HOME SCHOOLING  COMMUNITIES HAVE GROWN UP ALONG CULTURAL OR ETHNIC LINES, AND  PARTICULARLY WITH OUR CHALLENGES WITH BROADBAND IN TRYING TO  CONNECT REMOTELY, HOME SCHOOLING CAN SEEM A LOT EASIER IF YOU CAN  GET A CURRICULUM, IT IS A LOT SIMPLER TO TEACH YOUR CHILDREN  YOURSELF.

IT GIVES YOU FLEXIBILITY.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE REGIMENTED AGAINST A SPECIFIC SCHOOL DAY.

YOU CAN WORK IT IN WITH YOUR WORK.

SO, THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES ON THE HOME SCHOOLING FRONT, BUT,  YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT JUST HOW NEW MEXICO ORGANIZES ITS SCHOOL  DISTRICTS, HAVING 89 SCHOOL DISTRICTS FOR THE NUMBER OF  STUDENTS WE HAVE AND 1/3 IN ONE MEGA SCHOOL DISTRICT, THAT MAKES  NO BLASTED SENSE.

THIS IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO  TAKE, TO YOUR PAINT, TO TAKE THAT MONEY AND REALLY DO A RESET  AND FIGURE OUT WHAT IS BEST FOR OUR CHILDREN BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT  BEEN SERVING THEM AND ITS NOT JUST A PROBLEM THAT THIS PED HAS  CREATED.

IT IS ONE INHERITED AND BUILDING  AND SNOWBALLING OVER DECADES.

>> Gene: INTERESTING STUFF TO  THINK ABOUT THERE.

SOPHIE, THOUGH, HOW DOES  REVELATION ABOUT THE MAJOR INCREASE IN NUMBER OF HOME  SCHOOLED STUDENTS -- HERE IS MY QUESTION.

HOW DOES IT AFFECT THE BIG EDUCATION NEWS THAT HANGS OVER  EVERYTHING.

I AM TALKING ABOUT YAZZI MARTINEZ TRIAL WHICH FOUND  THE STATE NOT PROVIDING EQUAL EDUCATION FOR ALL NEW MEXICO  STUDENTS.

THOSE WITH RESOURCES THAT YOU  AND MERRITT AND DAN ARE TALKING ABOUT MIGHT HAVE THE LUXURY TO  DO HOME SCHOOLING BUT VULNERABLE NEW MEXICO STUDENTS DON'T HAVE  THAT CHOICE.

DO YOU THINK THIS WILL ACTUALLY  WIDEN THE EDUCATION GAP OVER THE LONG HAUL?

>> Sohpie: IT VERY WELL COULD AND ONE THING WE HAVEN'T  TOUCHED ON HERE THAT IS OF CONCERN AS WELL IS THE NUMBER  OF STUDENTS WHO HAVE SORT OF DISAPPEARED WHERE WE DON'T  KNOW NECESSARILY THAT THEY ARE BEING HOME SCHOOLED.

THEY MAY HAVE MOVED OUT OF STATE BUT IT MAY BE A SITUATION IN  WHICH THEY CAN'T ACCESS SCHOOLING AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE  ARE ALSO GOING TO BE LOOKING AT HAVE CHILDREN FALLEN BEHIND?

THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN EDUCATED AND THOSE WHO HAVEN'T BUT THAT IS AN  INTERESTING ISSUE, THE QUESTION OF YAZZI.

CERTAINLY AS FUNDING FORMULAS FORCE WHAT LOOKS LIKE IT IS  GOING TO BE A DECREASE IN FUNDS AVAILABLE TO THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS,  THEY HAVE TO MAKE HARD DECISIONS AND YAZZI HANGS OVER ALL OF  THAT.

>> Gene: EDUCATION HAS BECOME SO  POLITICIZED.

THE BATTLE FOR TEACHING CRITICAL RACE THEORY IN  K THROUGH 12, IT IS ONE OF THOSE HARD OPINION QUESTIONS, IS THIS  A WAY FOR FAMILIES THAT DON'T BELIEVE IN CERTAIN APPROACHES TO  SKIRT THESE THINGS ALTOGETHER AND SAY, THE HELL WITH IT, I AM  DOING HOME SCHOOLING?

IS THAT PART THAT THERE IS  SOMETHING POLITICAL MOTIVATING SOME OF THESE FOLKS.

>> Dan: IT IS HARD TO TEASE OUT THE POLITICS FROM OTHER KINDS OF  PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATES OVER EDUCATION.

SO IT IS A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO DECIDE WHAT IS DRIVING THE HOME  SCHOOL INCREASE, BUT I THINK THAT THE PANDEMIC IS PROBABLY  THE DRIVING FACTOR AT THIS POINT, THE DISRUPTION TO  IN-PERSON SCHOOLING, I HAVE TO IMAGINE THAT IS THE OVERRIDING  FACTOR AT THIS POINT AND THE OTHER THINGS MAY BE LESSER  FACTORS BUT PRESENT AS WELL.

>> Gene: ON YAZZI MARTINEZ, AS  WELL, GET YOUR SENSE OF THIS, OBVIOUSLY THIS PUTS A LOT OF  FUNDING FORMULAS IN A BIT OF DISARRAY HERE.

AGAIN, I AM ASKING YOUR SENSE OF THIS.

HOW DOES YAZZI MARTINEZ GET AFFECTED BY THIS BUMP IN HOME  SCHOOLING HERE IN YOUR VIEW?

>> Dan: ONE OF THE KEY ISSUES  AND YOU TOUCHED ON IT IS AVAILABILITY OF BROADBAND AND  ELECTRONIC DEVICES, THE MATERIAL YOU NEED TO DO ADEQUATE HOME  SCHOOLING OR REMOTE SCHOOLING, YOU KNOW, NEW MEXICO LAGS THE  NATION IN BROADBAND AVAILABILITY.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY FAMILIES THAT JUST SIMPLY DON'T HAVE  INTERNET OR HIGH SPEED INTERNET AVAILABLE.

WE ARE AT THIS TIME OF TREMENDOUS DISRUPTION IN THE  EDUCATION SYSTEM AND THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF DEBATE OVER  HOW BEST TO FIX IT, WHETHER IT IS NEW RESOURCES OR NEW  STRATEGIES OR WHAT.

>> Gene: MERRITT, I WANT YOU TO  TOUCH ON THE YAZZI Y THING AS WELL.

IT IS WHAT IT IS, AS YOU SAID A LITTLE BIT AGO ON ANOTHER  SUBJECT BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE PUT IN PLACE.

THERE IS NOT AN OPTION HERE.

DOES THIS THROW A MONKEY WRENCH  INTO THE WHOLE THING?

>> Merritt: TO SOPHIE'S POINT  WHEN WE CAN'T FIND SOME OF THE MOST UNDERSERVED STUDENTS WHEN  THEY DISAPPEAR FROM THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, IT DOESN'T MAKE IT THAT  MUCH HARDER.

SO, WE HAVE THAT ISSUE.

TO  DAN'S POINT THAT THE REMOTE ACCESS OF THE BROADBAND ISSUES,  THE TOOLS THAT CHILDREN NEED TO LEARN, I THINK LEARNING WITHOUT  INTERNET OR WITHOUT A LAPTOP OR TABLET IS GOING TO PUT CHILDREN  FURTHER AND FURTHER BEHIND.

AND AS THIS REGRESSES FARTHER  AND WE'RE NOT CATCHING UP THOSE CHILDREN, THIS GAP IS GOING TO  BECOME WIDER SO THE LONGER WE WAIT THE HARDER IT IS GOING TO  BE TO BECOME FULLY COMPLIANT AND THE PANDEMIC CERTAINLY DID NOT  HELP US.

ONE POINT I WANT TO POINT OUT, A  LITTLE TANGENTIAL, BUT ONE THING ABOUT THE RISE OF HOME SCHOOLING  QUITE TYPICALLY, THE HOME SCHOOLER IS THE FEMALE PARENT  AND WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN WOMEN DROPPING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE  AND THIS TREND IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO KEEP WOMEN OUT OF  THE WORKFORCE AND I JUST WANTED TO THROW THAT OUT.

THAT IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS A GENERATIONAL GAP, I  THINK, THAT WE SEE FOR THE NEXT GENERATION IS THE PANDEMIC --  THE COVID-19 WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE DROP.

>> Gene: KEEP UP WITH THIS CONVERSATION ON OUR FACEBOOK  PAGE AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE RISE IN HOME  SCHOOLING.

UP NEXT HERE WITH THE LINE, ARE  THE SCANDALS REACHING A BOILING POINT FOR GOVERNOR MICHELLE  LUJAN GRISHAM AS SHE HEADS INTO REELECTION?

REACH OUT TO US ON  SOCIAL MEDIA AND JOIN THE CONVERSATION.

WE'RE AT NMINFOCUS ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER AND FIND EPISODES  AND WEB EXTRAS AT THE WEBSITE, NEWMEXICOINFOCUS.ORG.

A WHISTLE BLOWER LAWSUIT OVER THE USE OF A PRIVATE MESSAGING  SYSTEM IN THE CHILDREN, YOUTH AND FAMILIES DEPARTMENT.

RESTRUCTURING OF THE DEPARTMENT OF WORKFORCE SOLUTIONS AFTER  MILLIONS IN EMPLOYMENT OVERPAYMENTS AND ACCUSATIONS  FROM REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS OF SECRET MEETINGS AND HOW TO SPEND  OVER A BILL AND A HALF DOLLARS OF FEDERAL RELIEF FUNDS.

HONEYMOON IS DEFINITELY OVER FOR THE GOVERNOR AS SHE STARES DOWN  A REELECTION BID NEXT YEAR.

THE QUESTIONS AND CRITICISMS MAY  BE RISING BUT, DAN, HOW VULNERABLE IS SHE REALLY HEADED  INTO THE MIDTERMS WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE ENTIRE RECORD?

>> Dan: WELL, IT IS DIFFICULT TO SAY.

SHE HAS HAD RECENTLY HIGH APPROVAL RATINGS AS RECENTLY AS  LAST YEAR, LAST TIME THE JOURNAL DID A SCIENTIFIC POLL.

BUT THERE ARE ALSO GOING TO BE BROADER POLITICAL TRENDS THAT  MAY PRESENT A CHALLENGE.

YOU KNOW, TYPICALLY THE PARTY  THAT IS NOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE LOSES GROUND AT OTHER -- IN  OTHER PARTS OF GOVERNMENT AT MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT COULD FAVOR REPUBLICANS NEXT YEAR BUT  WE'LL HAVE TO SEE.

NEW MEXICO HAS BEEN A PRETTY BLUE STATE IN  THE LAST FEW ELECTION CYCLES, SO, WE ARE NOT SURE YET WHO THE  REPUBLICAN NOMINEE WILL BE.

>> Gene: SOPHIE, EVERY  ADMINISTRATION HAS ISSUES.

TROUBLES IS PART OF THE GAME AS  THINGS GO ALONG.

YOU GET SIDEWAYS WITH CERTAIN  CONSTITUENCIES.

IT JUST HAPPENS.

DOES THIS LIST OF QUESTIONABLE THINGS GIVE YOU OR OTHERS SOME  PAUSE HERE?

CAN THIS BE CHALKED UP TO  DEALING WITH COVID-19 FOR 16 MONTHS AND WE SHOULD LOOK  THROUGH THAT LENS?

>> Sophie: I DON'T KNOW THAT I  WOULD BE THAT SORT OF, LET'S MOVE ALONG ABOUT IT.

SOME OF THE ISSUES, YOU KNOW, KIND OF BIG PICTURE ISSUES FOR  GOVERNMENT.

HOW WE SPEND MONEY, HOW WE  COMMUNICATE IN THE CONTEXT OF OPEN RECORDS AND THINGS LIKE  THAT.

AND THOSE ARE NOT JUST THIS  MOMENT IN TIME.

THOSE ARE ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE  ADDRESSED LONGER TERM.

I MEAN, CERTAINLY, TO YOUR  POINT, GOVERNMENTS ARE COMPLEX CREATURES.

AND WE HAVE A TENDENCY TO SORT OF POINT AND SAY, WELL, THAT IS  ALL ON THE GOVERNOR.

ON SOME LEVEL, YEAH, THE BUCK  STOPS THERE BUT ALSO THIS IS JUST A COMPLICATED BEING AND  DIFFICULT TO CONTROL.

>> Gene: MERRITT, WE HAVE AN  ISSUE WITH CYFD.

SEEMS THERE IS AN ISSUE FOR EVERY SITTING  GOVERNOR BUT THIS ONE IN PARTICULAR OVER TRANSPARENCY AND  USE OF CERTAIN KINDS OF MESSAGING OUT THERE.

IF YOU COULD BRIEFLY KIND OF GIVE US, IN A MINUTE OR SO, WHAT  IS GOING ON THERE AND YOUR SENSE OF WHERE THE GOVERNOR STANDS ON  THIS ISSUE.

>> Merritt: WELL, TWO VERY  SENIOR LEVEL EMPLOYEES RECRUITED FROM OUT OF STATE TO HELP MAKE  CYFD BETTER ATTEMPTED TO DO SO, WE ARE TOLD TO STOP DOING SO,  WHEN THEY PUSHED FORWARD AND SAID, NO, THIS IS WHAT YOU ASKED  US TO DO.

AFTER SIX MONTHS AND IN ONE CASE  LESS THAN SIX MONTHS, THEY WERE FIRED.

AND WHAT WAS NOTED AS IN  GILMORE, AND THEY HAVE GONE PUBLIC AND FILED A LAWSUIT, AND  IT WAS NOTED BY GILMORE, OUR FIRING WAS THE MOST CONFIDENT  COORDINATED EFFORT THAT CYFD MADE IN OUR TENURE WITH THE  AGENCY.

AND IT WAS OVER DELETING -- A  REQUIREMENT TO DELETE ALL TEXT MESSAGES WITHIN 24 HOURS.

IT WAS A NO BID CONTRACT FOR A FOUR-AND-A-HALF MILLION DOLLAR  SOFTWARE PACKAGE AND INSTALLATION.

IT WAS A HIRING PROCESS THAT WAS CLEARLY TO FAVOR A CERTAIN  CANDIDATE OVER OTHERS AND NOT ON THE MERITS OF CREDENTIALS.

IF IT IS HAPPENING AT THAT HIGH A LEVEL GOD ONLY KNOWS WHAT IS  HAPPENING AT CASEWORKER LEVEL.

THIS IS REALLY BLOWING UP CYFD  AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT NEW MEXICO, OUR STATE BUDGET, IN GENERAL,  WITHOUT THE RIDICULOUS AMOUNTS OF FEDERAL MONEY POURING IN OUR  BUDGET IS BETWEEN 6 AND 7 BILLION.

COMPARED WITH OTHER STATES, THAT IS NOT A LOT.

THE WAY OUR STATE IS STRUCTURED, MOST OF THE POWER IS IN THE  EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE LEGISLATURE GAVE MORE OF THAT  POWER TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IN THE RICHARDSON ADMINISTRATION,  BUT TRULY IT IS NOT A BIG ASK FOR A GOVERNOR TO OPERATE  CONFIDENTLY AND EXPECT THE AGENCIES UNDER THE GOVERNOR'S  PURVIEW TO OPERATE COMPETENTLY.

>> Gene: LET ME ASK SOPHIE A  QUESTION ON THIS REGARDING DELETING OF TEXT MESSAGES AND  VOICE MAILS.

I AM LOOKING AT GUIDANCE FROM  THE ADMINISTRATION UNDER TEXT MESSAGES.

IT SAYS, EVERY SINGLE TEXT MESSAGE THAT YOU SEND OR RECEIVE  LIKELY QUALIFIES AS A TRANSITORY RECORD, AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS  THEY DON'T CONVEY INFORMATION OF TEMPORARY IMPORTANCE IN LIEU OF  ORAL COMMUNICATION.

THERE IS SOMETHING CONFUSING  ABOUT THAT.

I MEAN, WE WANT TO HAVE  TRANSPARENCY.

WE WANT THESE RECORDS SAVED BUT  THE GUIDANCE FROM THE ADMINISTRATION ITSELF SAYS, NO,  YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAVE THESE TEXT MESSAGES.

>> Sophie: THE CHALLENGE HERE, IN TERMS OF OPEN RECORDS LAWS IN  NEW MEXICO, IS THAT IT IS NOT THE MODE OF COMMUNICATION OR THE  MODE OF RECORDING FOR LACK OF A BETTER WAY TO PUT IT, THAT  SHOULD BE GUIDING WHETHER A PARTICULAR COMMUNICATION IS  SUBJECT TO OPEN RECORDS AND THEREFORE MUST BE PRESERVED.

IT IS THE CONTEXT.

SO THESE INQUIRIES REALLY NEED  TO BE FACT BASED.

IS IT, YOU KNOW, DO YOU HAVE TO  KEEP, I AM LEAVING FOR LUNCH NOW, IN A TEXT MESSAGE?

WELL, I MEAN ACCORDING TO THAT GUIDANCE IT SOUNDS LIKE, NO, MY  UNDERSTANDING, AS WELL, IT IS NO, THAT IS NOT A PUBLIC RECORD  FROM THE -- GIVEN INTENT OF THE LAW.

IF YOU CHOSE AND WE HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN NOT JUST IN THIS  ADMINISTRATION RIGHT, BUT IF YOU CHOSE TO PUT SUBSTANTIVE  INFORMATION THAT IF IT WAS IN ANOTHER MEDIA WOULD NEED TO BE  PRESERVED, IF YOU CHOSE TO USE SIGNAL OR ANOTHER MESSAGING APP  OR IF YOU CHOSE TO USE TEXT MESSAGE IN ORDER TO CIRCUMVENT  THE REQUIREMENTS THAT A COMMUNICATION OR A RECORDING  NEEDS TO BE PRESERVED, THAT IS A DIFFERENT MATTER AND THAT IS  PROBLEMATIC.

>> Merritt: IT IS HOW  CASEWORKERS HAVE TO REACH MANAGERS IN KIND OF CRISIS TIMES  ON, I NEED THE PERMISSION -- I NEED YOU TO KNOW I NEED TO  REMOVE THIS CHILD.

ARE YOU OKAY WITH THIS?

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

THAT WOULD QUALIFY IN YOUR VIEW AS A  TEXT THAT SHOULD BE SAVED OR NOT SAVED?

IS THAT JUST A STANDARD COURSE OF BUSINESS?

TRYING TO GET TO WHAT SHOULD BE SAVED AND WHAT SHOULDN'T,  MERRITT.

>> Merritt: I FEEL IF WE ARE  REMOVING A CHILD FROM A HOME THAT IS DANGEROUS AND THAT CHILD  SOMEHOW COMES TO HARM AND THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION OR PERHAPS A  LAWSUIT, I FEEL LIKE THIS WOULD BE EVIDENCE.

SO, YEAH.

I THINK THAT SHOULD BE SAVED.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

THAT WILL HAVE TO DO IT FOR THE LINE THIS  WEEK.

THANKS TO ALL OUR PANELISTS.

THANKS TO ED WILLIAMS WITH THE SEARCHLIGHT AS WELL FOR HIS  REPORTING ON THIS ISSUE.

THANKS TO PANELISTS.

I'M BACK  IN A MOMENT WITH A FEW FINAL THOUGHTS.

HOW FUNNY WAS THAT WEATHER SWAP WE ENJOYED IN THE  NORTHWEST PART OF THE COUNTRY THIS WEEK.

IF YOU TOLD ME ON FATHER'S DAY PAST I SOON WOULD ENJOY A WALK  IN DRIZZLING HIGH 60'S RAIN  LIKE IT WAS ON WEDNESDAY, ALL I COULD HAVE DONE WAS LAUGH  AND HOPED.

THIS ROLLER COASTER OF  WEATHER, IF ANYTHING, SIGNALS THIS CLIMATE CHANGE THING IS  GOING TO BE A RIDE FOR US HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

WHIPLASH FELT SOMETHING AKIN TO A WARNING.

LET'S NOT LET THIS BLESSED MONSOON WASH AWAY THE MEMORY  OF THAT HEAT BUBBLE WE SUFFERED PREVIOUSLY AND WHAT  SUSTAINED TEMPS LIKE THAT WOULD MEAN FOR OUR FUTURE ON A  NUMBER OF FRONTS.

IT IS NOT PRETTY.

AGRICULTURE, LIVESTOCK, HOW YOU RECREATE, HOW WE WORK,  ARCHITECTURE, WALKABILITY.

IT IS ALL GOING TO MORPH OVER  TIME.

THE QUESTION IS DO WE GET IN  FRONT OF THIS HOTTER FUTURE WITH THOUGHTFUL LONG GAME  POLICY DECISIONS OR WAIT FOR THE HAMMER TO DROP FULLY?

WHAT WE CAN DO RIGHT NOW IS ENJOY THE LOVELY COOL WEATHER  THIS WEEKEND, BECAUSE IT WON'T LAST, SUMMER BEING WHAT IT IS.

THANKS FOR JOINING US AND STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK IN FOCUS.