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- As the eight day virtual session of the Wyoming Legislature winds to a close, the heavy lifting on the state's biggest challenges remains and will be addressed by the legislature, later this Spring.

We'll visit with majority floor leader Senator Ogden Driskill, and Representative Albert Sommers and Travel, Recreation, Wildlife and Cultural Resources Committee chairs, Senator Effie Ellis and representative Jamie Flitner, on "Capitol Outlook," which starts now.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This program is supported in part by a grant from the BNSF Railway Foundation.

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Proud to support Wyoming PBS.

- [Narrator] This program was funded in part by a grant for Newman's Own Foundation.

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More information is available at Newman'sOwnFoundation.org.

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AARP Wyoming, proud to support Wyoming PBS.

- [Female Voice] And by Wyoming humanities, celebrating our heritage, strengthening our democracy and growing Wyoming's creative and cultural economy for over 50 years.

Visit thinkWY.org.

- I wanna welcome our viewers to really what's the first week of "Capital Outlook" in a somewhat disjointed session of the Wyoming legislature.

It's my pleasure to be joined by the two majority floor leaders of their respective bodies, representative Albert Sommers and Senator Ogden Driskill.

To both of you, welcome back to "Capital Outlook."

- Thank you.

- Thank you Craig.

This week, of course, we've heard the announcement that March 1st, the legislature will resume within person, with an in-person session.

First of all, your thoughts on how this portion of the session has went and then we'll get onto the major, major bills that are upcoming here around the 1st of March.

So Senator Driscoll, how things went here in this eight day session.

- Really the eight day session's really been ended as in this week.

We called out a special session, not virtual, but this was really the had test on can we legislate virtually?

Session's had it's ups and downs without a doubt.

Our leadership team all came to the camp.

So we're all here.

But all in all it's gone well.

- Well, thanks Craig.

And we really did roll out the easiest of the easy bills.

And just for that reason because though the long debates are harder on Zoom.

I think the most interesting thing that I've found out we've become comfortable with Zoom, right?

And maybe we're more comfortable with Zoom than we would be on the floor of the house where the institution is looking down on you.

And so I think our debate has probably gone on a little long, but that's kind of the house, we're talkative and there's a lot of us and we've got things to say.

But I would say that's been one of the biggest challenges.

Is just kinda keeping the debate focused on the bills.

And we've got a lot of new people and you don't wanna stifle debate of new members.

- Both of you are well aware that President Biden unveiled as part of his attack on climate change.

There'll be a moratorium on new oil and gas leasing.

Coupled with that and maybe less discussed, was General Motors' announcement, that by 2035, there'll be 100% electric and you won't be able to buy a gas or diesel car from General Motors according to the headlines and the stories that they talked about last week.

In fact, we're all going to see Will Ferrell commercial during the super bowl this Sunday that talks about exactly that.

Have either of you really unpacked what this is now coming to mean for the state of Wyoming?

Senator Driskill, do you wanna take a crack at that first?

- Yeah, it's really tough 'cause it's just flat rolled out.

That's unprecedented, what we're seeing with the new administration to unilaterally come out and basically by edict executive order, change States economies and the economy of the country on a new policy path.

And of course it's a new but an old one and we've come a long way.

It's, Wyoming's got lots of it.

But when you look at what's here now, the way they went about to do policy changes, going to be very difficult, both financially and transitionally, for the state of Wyoming word.

We were preparing for it, but not preparing for tomorrow.

And so I think it's gonna present not only budget challenge, but challenges mentally as in we in how we transitioned in the state of Wyoming.

So, some of it we're gonna see right away moratorium is gonna have very soon impacts on the economy in Wyoming.

Representative Sommers, what are your thoughts?

And does that at all change your trajectory on the need to have serious discussions on diversifying Wyoming's tax structure?

- Craig, we do have to diversify our tax structure, but that's not this discussion really.

To me, this discussion is my county's 80% federal lands.

And we have two of the largest fields in the nation.

And are we gonna even be able to move rigs around on existing leases to do work if those companies wanna do it?

And I think it was in fortunate for the president to come into office and talk about bringing the nation together and then laying down a whole bunch of edicts on day one through five or whatever he did.

That really are gonna have a negative effect on rural America, which is the very place that this stew pot is boiling.

So I just think it was the wrong message at the wrong time.

I think we all understand that economies are changing.

And so you could change our tax structure, right?

But what is our economy in this state?

It's we don't have huge manufacturing in this state.

We just don't.

We'd love to, but we just don't.

So, you can tax the people, but about what about taxing the industries?

And our industries right now are well taxed and they're rev, they revolve around minerals.

- You're gonna have serious discussions about the governor's budget that has been now well-vetted by the joint appropriations committee come March.

Have either of, you really started to get a lot of feedback on the meaning of these cuts to your constituents?

- Craig, no, I don't think people understand yet what's going on.

And really, if you think about it, some of the most draconian cuts are gonna come to very small populations.

Very, very difficult populations that need help.

But there's going to be a lot of people that won't even know it unless they know a family that has that.

But when it's all rolled out and if all of the phase three cuts go in, eventually people will see that it's difficult.

And our state agencies, they're going to be working on kind of a shoestring, frankly.

- Senator Driskill, hat have you heard?

- Yeah, well put.

We felt that the very first level came last week when bill we did bring us the funding for cities, towns, and counties.

Which is a 15 to 20% cut, which actually it's a small cut when we compare it to what we've done to the general fund part of the budget.

And they're feeling it right now.

And we're seeing some of the effects.

We've watched agency started to cut and representative Sommers' absolutely correct.

They're running on a shoestring.

The budget's roughly a billion dollar slashing.

It was a decade ago with a general public has an assumption that we're pretty flush.

And really we've been doing these cuts, and now we're down to the cuts that come home.

And they come home at a very personal and local level.

If you've got parents that are using some of the health programs, DD waivers, our prisons, we're gonna feel it across the board and it's gonna change Wyoming somewhat though we do it.

And it really is an interesting time 'cause we actually with all these cuts we've done, should nothing change, we're probably looking at another round to catch again next year.

- Representative Sommers you co-chaired the school recalibration committee that met last year through almost the end of the year.

The proposals I understand are coming forward, presents about a hundred million dollars in cuts to K-12 education using the legislative funding model.

What impacts are you hearing will happen now in school districts in Wyoming, relative to these potential cuts that are coming forward?

And then we'll talk about how the shortfalls in education will be attacked if you will.

- Sure, thank you.

And you know, so we, me and the co-chair Senator Kinski on the Senate side, we made a request really to districts to provide us those impacts.

And we've got letter after letter from district after district on what it would take.

And I relate this back to my own district.

So, I look at my small, big tiny school district.

School district number nine.

And they were because of what's happening in oil and gas, their population's declining, less students.

So their funding was dropping anyway.

And then you throw on basically another 6% cut on top of that.

And yeah, when your population is declining you can cut some personnel, but in places where they have declining populations, this could be really, really difficult.

I mean, really difficult.

But it's a conversation we've gotta have.

And maybe you want me to stop there, but really what this bill that came out of recal, was is it had the ability to tax and it had some cuts.

And it is simply a vehicle to have a discussion in the legislature about what we wanna do with K-12 funding.

- And there were no taxes in the bill, but it is a vehicle to allow those taxes perhaps to be added.

Senator Driskill, you have said that you anticipate absolutely no new revenue bills will come out of the Senate this year.

Do you stand by that?

Even in the context of the discussions that Representative Sommers just spoke about relative to K-12 education?

- I do it's very difficult.

Representative Soummer's alluded that nobody really is seeing the effectual cuts yet.

The areas I represent, the people I'm close to, made it clear that at least on this initial end of it that they wanna see cuts go in place, see how they work before they start looking at revenue.

And I think you're gonna see attitudes change somewhat, as it goes.

These cuts are definitely gonna come straight home and they're gonna affect people.

And as we all know, if you have the services and you can't feel anything about it, you don't care.

It's the status quo.

But I think the status quo has gone in Wyoming and we will see some major changes.

We already are seeing a wide opts for example for cuts is already up in our area, changed how they plow snow, and now they sound our roads.

And we've had an accident or two.

Those are the types of things that you start seeing emerge and on budget cuts and attitudes change.

When it affects you directly, all of a sudden you decide what services have value to you, and what you're willing to pay for 'em.

And Wyoming, someone else paid for those services for the last 20 years.

I want to end our discussion in this segment with what I found to be a fascinating debate with house bill 30.

And it was an amendment that was brought forward.

I believe by Representative Chuck Gray that essentially asks the public service commission to put a 15 year moratorium on any coal fired power plant closures.

That amendment failed on a 30-30 vote in the house.

In other words, it was a tie.

So it did not pass.

Representative Sommers, you participated in that debate.

What is the role of the public service commission?

Is it to make sure we pay as little as we possibly can for our utilities, our telephone or our power, or is it to save jobs essentially?

- That's a great question.

So, I think the challenge with the amendment was the way it was brought into a bill that was to help fund the PSC.

And to me, I live at not in coal country, I live in gas country.

So basically you're saying you can't convert a coal plant to a gas plant, and we're gonna make that a state policy in a bill that was designed to help fund the PSC.

Now, could you do what States to the West have done and go it's a state policy that we wanna use X percent, of that X percent of our electricity comes from fossil fuels.

We get to absolutely have a counter policy.

And I think that's a really good discussion.

But the public service commission is there to protect both the rate payers, basically the rate payers from huge monopolies.

But it has multiple roles I think.

That this wasn't the right amendment at the right time, but a bill in the right place would probably go.

- Senator Driskill, will give me the final word about that even though that particular discussion didn't make it over to the Senate side, what do you perceive the role of a public service commission here?

- It's interesting, I've run the very bill that Representative Sommers did.

Senator Hicks and myself read them multiple times and been attacked.

And the real truth is the public service commissions pretty clearly defined what it does and Representative Sommers laid it out well.

Well, the really sad part is we do have states on the other end of us that have used it as a political tool.

And it really politicizes what the PSC does.

When you start looking at, in particular some West Coast States at this point in time, they made statements that they're not gonna allow their rate payers to help pay cleanup costs on some of these coal fired power plants, which are massive costs.

And when you start getting into shifts between states, then it's not just Wyoming public service commission, it's how they interact with all of the rest of the PSCs.

And so you find yourself looking on how you can use your PSC to help level the playing field.

And that's what you saw in the amendment is it's a frustration to reach out that we've watched GreenPower mandates drive up energy costs.

And create an unlevel playing field with some of our other industries.

- Well, I thank you both for your time this morning.

I know that you have still a lot to do in the last couple of days of this eight day session.

But we'll look forward to marching forward with you come March 1st.

- Thanks, Craig.

- Senator Affie Ellison, Representative Jamie Flitner, on next.

Stay with us.

(upbeat music) And as we move forward in this first week of "Capital Outlook," it's our pleasure to be joined by the chairs of the Travel, Recreation, Wildlife and Cultural Resources committee and their respective bodies, Senator Affie Ellison and representative Jamie Flitner.

To both of you, welcome back to "Capital Outlook."

- Morning.

- Morning, Craig, thank you.

- They're have been some travel recreation, TRW bills that have advanced forward that I wanna talk about.

And let's start with state parks and then we'll make our way to gaming if we can.

Wyoming has 12 state parks, I think 25 historic sites.

I think viewers will be surprised that last year's numbers were up over 5 million folks visited Wyoming state parks.

They may not be aware that prices rose, fees rose in our state parks January 1st.

Senator Ellis, our state parks on a sustainable path now or is there more work to be done?

- You know, Craig, I think when it comes to state parks there's always more work to be done.

Last year was a unique year.

I think more and more people were drawn to outdoor recreation.

I think if you look at RV sales and just purchases of things like tents, nationwide people are interested in exploring the outdoors.

So I think that's a huge, positive thing for Wyoming.

As we all know tourism is our second largest industry in the state.

And so that will be an ongoing challenge, is to ensure that we're protecting our resources, but also welcoming our visitors and finding that right balance.

But I know that the house had a more robust discussion on this earlier this week.

- Yeah, Representative Flit, there was great discussion on how much of these budgets should be used towards major maintenance projects if you will.

30% now up to 60%, if this bill that that Senator Ellis referred to goes forward.

But what are your thoughts on even that particular debate here whether there is need to give state parks more, I guess flexibility in how they deal with things now with revenues being pinched from the state level?

- Sure, Craig, yeah.

House bill 58 which had a lot of discussion yesterday afternoon just would allow the state parks more flexibility to use the funds that they actually bring in from those fees.

So basically users, and it just increases that from a 30% to a 60% flexibility capacity.

And I just saw it clearly as taking as an asset preservation.

It allows the fees that are generated by the people that use those facilities to go right back into those facilities to help maintain them.

And I think the state over the course of many many years, has helped to build up these assets.

And now we have to make sure that we preserve them so that the general public when they do come to Wyoming, they have a very pleasant and safe experience.

- I think the discussion was maybe also centered on, look, we're not going to be able to build new things very often anymore.

Therefore we need to preserve.

Is that how you perceive the debate?

- Yes, Craig, that's how I perceive the legislation.

And that's absolutely what we tried to get across in the debate.

- So neither of you had feedback yet?

It may be too early in the in the travel year about how these fees are increasing.

Have you had constituent feedback on, you know what?

We get it, we understand that we have to pay more, or no, no, this is too much too soon.

Any ideas there yet?

Senator Ellis, have you heard from your constituents?

And by the way, we're close to Glendo State Park.

And I was surprised to learn that up to 20,000 people on a weekend in the summer, we'll travel to Glendale, making it I think like our third largest city.

That surprised me.

But go ahead, Senator Ellis.

- You know, I haven't heard from my constituents about the increase in fees for state parks.

But I think you're hitting on something that's really important, is a lot of people in my neck of the woods come up from Colorado.

And so, someone who uses our state parks, Glendo, Guernsey and Curt Gowdy.

you do see an awful lot of Colorado license plates.

And last year during the pandemic we had a very limited opportunity to purchase our park or camping spots a little bit early.

And I did hear on the campaign trail last year that Wyoming it's appreciated that because so often once those reservations are open, we're competing against all the residents of Colorado for those spots.

So I think that going forward, I certainly wanna look at ways that we can provide a little bit of an early opportunity for Wyoming residents to secure their camping spots.

But it is astounding when you start looking at the numbers and it's an important lifeline for some of those communities.

This isn't just about revenue generation for the state and for the park.

Those campers really support areas like Glendo and those neighboring communities.

So I think going forward, I know there's a lot of interest in how we start marketing our parks for more tourism opportunities and trying to get those campers to not just visit the parks but also attractions in the area.

So I know there's a lot of work underway with our department of tourism, for State Parks or Wyoming Game and Fish to start having more of a coordinated approach in how we talk about our resources.

So I think going forward, I know representative Flint and I would like to look at and better understand that coordination.

- And I think that was one of your interim goals last year, was to to begin that process and carry that forward.

Representative Flint and you actually are in the recreation industry I believe, with some guests ranching that you have, or is that part of part of your family?

- Actually it's our personal business.

Is not associated with with bringing in guests, but no, my husband's family does that, cousins.

So, but we share it, we're neighbors to them.

So we see that.

We see their guests when they come in and they bring in a lot of international guests.

And so I did have a lot of conversations with them especially during the pandemic and how impactful that was, not only to our guests rents business but all of our outdoor recreation businesses.

So while I don't live it, I certainly neighbor it.

And I met a base of the big corn.

So I see what outdoor recreation is.

And I see what it also means to be a private land owner and a rancher to have to coexist with outdoor recreation.

- When I turn the page to gaining, if we could Senate file 56 easily really passed the Senate I thought.

Senator Effie you were part of this discussion.

And this has to do with really making permanent and then cleaning up a little bit, these games of skill.

Now that we'll move forward and be allowed to exist in Wyoming.

Gambling in my eyes, in eyes of some, maybe not in others, but they're now going to be here apparently for a period of time.

What are your thoughts on its impact?

It has returned revenue I should say to the state's general fund now?

Is this a good idea going forward to have these games of skill becoming permanent in Wyoming?

- Yeah, I really wanna make clear that at the federal level, I've worked on the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, and I can tell you that you might have two machines that look very similar, but if you understand the mechanics of what's happening in the machine, they can be very different.

And depending on what has happening in the machine, they're either regulated under a very strict, no we call them class three games, casino style games, but if they're not, they're they're regulated differently.

And so when you talk about these games that we have in Wyoming, to the average user, they probably look at them they might have the look and feel of a slot machine, but-- - I will admit that's me for my layman's understanding.

So I appreciate this discussion.

- So, but if you open up the machine, Wyoming permits, games of skill.

And so if you think about it, if you go out to a dinner and you see an arcade game, there's an element of skill when you play Pac-Man.

And I think most people would agree with that.

But the distinction here is, with the Pac-Man game you're putting in a quarter or two, with these games there's actually an opportunity for payout.

And so I think that's where people are concerned about.

The comparison between these games of skill and parimutuel games that are based on historic horse races.

So they've got a predetermined outcome.

So things machines may look like slot machines but internally they're not.

And so for a while we had these games coming into Wyoming, we didn't have a handle on how many there were in the state, we didn't know where they were.

And so we actually last session passed a bill that would require some very beginning stages of regulation of these games.

And in that brief year that we've had looking at it, we know a lot more.

Right now they're located in 306 establishments across Wyoming.

There are 836 terminals and we've been taxing the net proceeds of those machines.

And so it's about more than $2 million in a year of operation.

And those funds are distributed to your schools and to the school foundation program, and they also are going to support towns and counties.

So in a time where we have limited revenue, we're very concerned about reductions in oil and gas, this is a new source of revenue for the state.

But going forward, I think the bill that we're working on is trying to make permanent the gaming commission and also making sure that we're putting more sideboards in place, so that the regulations are strong and very clear for operators going forward.

- Am I correct?

In my recall that 20% of the proceeds that are returned to the state of Wyoming is that is that the level they're working under here?

- Correct.

They're taxed at a 20% rate.

And so looking across the country, that's another point that we'll discuss further.

Not in my understanding of this legislation.

It's Senate files, the Senate files, can't raise revenue, but it's called a find the current rate, which is a 20%.

- Representative Flitner, in the past I believe you've had concerns about gaming in Wyoming.

Where do you sit on this particular idea of these games of skill becoming more prominent if you will?

- Thanks Craig.

I am, and I still do and I will continue to be concerned about it.

And I think it's unfortunate that we have to rely on gambling, gaming, whatever you want to call it, as a means of revenue for our state, but unfortunately it's here.

And while I was, am opposed to it and was opposed to it, I don't think you can turn back the tide.

And so I was in favor last year of the regulation and I liked very much the work that was done at Senate file 56 and by Senator Ellis, to just tighten those regulations.

And I think it's absolutely necessary.

We have to make sure that the sunset date is repealed so that those regulations can be put into play.

- To both of you, best wishes in your continued work as chairman of the what's called the TRW Committee, Travel, Recreation, Wildlife, and Cultural Resources.

And I appreciate your time with me this morning on "Capitol Outlook."

Thanks for joining me.

- Thank you, Craig.

- Thank you.

Have a good day.

- I wanna tell our viewers we'll be back when the Wyoming legislature reconvenes in March and will extend the format of our shows back to one hour.

So we look forward to seeing you then.

Thank you so much for joining us.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This program is supported in part by a grant from the BNSF Railway Foundation.

Dedicated to improving the general welfare and quality of life in communities throughout the BNSF railway service area.

Proud to support Wyoming PBS.

- [Narrator] This program was funded in part by a grant from Newman's Own Foundation.

Working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's Own Food and Beverage products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place.

More information is available at Newman'sOwnfoundation.org - [Announcer] By a grant from AARP, serving the needs and providing real possibilities for the over 50 population in Wyoming.

AARP Wyoming, proud to support Wyoming, PBS.

- [Female Voice] And Wyoming, humanities, celebrating our heritage, strengthening our democracy and growing Wyoming's creative and cultural economy, for over 50 years.

Visit thinkWY.org.