- Welcome to Capitol Outlook.

I'm Craig Blumenshine from Wyoming PBS.

This week on Capitol Outlook we'll touch on a variety of topics from marijuana to the death penalty, to meat monopolies and the impacts on Wyoming's agribusiness community, the budget and of course, K12 education.

We'll visit with the chairman of the judiciary committees of the Wyman legislature.

On the house side, that's representative Jared Olsen and on the Senate side that's Senator Tara Nethercott.

Revenue is top of mind for two members from the Senate revenue committee, chairman Cale Case and representative Wendy Schuler.

We'll have our weekly discussion with the leadership of the Wyoming legislature, Senate president Dan Docstader and speaker of the house, Dr. Eric Barlow.

And we will conclude Capital Outlook this week with a profile of representative Mark Kinner.

He's from Sheridan.

All that's next on Capitol Outlook, which starts now.

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- And as we begin the fifth week of our 15th season here on Capitol Outlook, it's our pleasure to be joined by the chairman of the House and Senate judiciary committees, Senator Tara Nethercott and representative Jared Olsen, the majority whip of the Wyoming House of Representatives Thank you both for joining us.

- Thanks for having us.

- We're gonna bend away a little bit from education and budget and other issues that have taken a lot of oxygen in the Wyoming legislature this year.

And talk about maybe some other issues that have fallen your way.

Things like marijuana, things like death penalty, things like anti-trade practices and things like that.

So let's start with maybe some of those.

Representative Olsen, I'll start with you.

You have sponsored a bill, house bill 209.

The regulation of marijuana.

It came out of a due pass out of your committee with a 6:3 vote and wasn't considered by the House.

Why was it important for you to bring that bill?

- Well, a couple of reasons.

One, and I talked about this in that with the introduction of the legislation and the committee surveying the population over the last few years in Wyoming and across the country, I think the needle is really moved in terms of what people are interested in.

And I think the needle appears pretty obvious that somewhere close to 80% in the latest survey of Wyoming Knights favor, some type of medical legalization .

Just below that dial is a decriminalization favorability.

And, but still even legalization is above the needle.

So that's important- - For recreational use.

- For recreational uses, sorry yeah.

So that's important to me, you know that we're responsive to the people.

I think that in, and then you mentioned in your opening, you know, we're going to move away from budget and education, but I think they are related.

I think when we're talking about, and as we dive deeper I'm sure into some of our judicial issues.

I mean, they're all budget, they're all budget related.

And so that's another chief issue is when you look at incarceration, particularly, you know, we looked at those numbers with the department of corrections and it's $20 million.

- Because of minor- - That we spend in minor drug offenses in just incarceration alone, over a biennium.

So if you looked at the fiscal note on 209, you look what you saw was an education excise tax of 30%.

What you didn't see where some of these other cost savers for the state that the $20 million bi-annually that the state of Wyoming would not have for those incarceration.

- So you're talking, maybe a plus $50 million.

- Exactly, yeah.

- Yep.

No.

What are your thoughts?

Your you've been a prosecutor.

You've been a defense attorney in your professional career.

You both are attorneys.

Is this a good time for Wyoming to kind of start thinking a little bit more seriously about the issue?

- I think the time is now I do.

As our surrounding States have passed the legalization of it, either for medical or for recreational, we really have to understand how Wyoming wants to address the continued criminality and illegality associated with it.

So in connection to the chairman's comments about the costs associated with it.

There are significant costs on our criminal justice system associated with folks traveling through the state that might be in possession of legal marijuana from their state and- - I-25.

- I-25 and interstate 80 of course are prime targets for increasing activity associated with those.

And how Wyoming wants to address that.

Do we wanna put that burden on our criminal justice system, make criminals of out of state people in Wyoming and even criminalize some of those residents in Wyoming who are going out of state?

I think it's a difficult conversation.

I think we need to be mindful of the history and what we know about the drug, that it is dangerous, that it has an impact and we need to be cognizant of that.

I would push back on some of the data associated with our costs associated with Department of Corrections impacts what we do know about those offenders who are incarcerated in our prison systems, you know by 70% of those are violent crimes and sex crimes.

And those are who our inmate populations are.

The remaining percentage of those really are habitual offenders who find themselves back in the system as a result of probation revocations from a failure to be law abiding.

So I don't think that we have a situation in Wyoming where we're sending minor drug offenders to our penal systems.

That's just not occurring in that way.

- I wanna go to talk about incarceration, corrections and well, I mean prison system.

Senator Nethercutt you suggested to me in an interview we conducted a few years ago, you said and I'm paraphrasing this but essentially Wyoming has a relative low recidivism rate.

It's an indication that Wyoming Department of Corrections is working.

That was a few years ago and we've had budget cuts.

We've had change in administration now under the Department of Corrections what is your view today?

- I am confident and hopeful for our department of corrections.

Our new director, Dan Shannon is top-notch a world-class director who really is advancing forward visionary policies associated with corrections.

And so I think that we will continue to see the types of results we have historically received under different leadership and throughout the years.

I do know that they are challenged with increasing budget cuts.

Corrections is a very difficult area.

It's very costly.

It's very expensive as a result of, again a lack of efficiency of resources in our state from having to hold large prison systems with minority populations and on a hard together a workforce.

So we're having to bring in medical providers from out of local jurisdictions and it's just very costly.

- You have providers as well?

- Right?

So correctional officers, healthcare providers, all of the kind of wraparound services that you need in a prison system are difficult to get in some of the smaller communities where our prisons are located therefore increasing our costs.

So we have to be mindful of that and recognize those challenges that our Department of Corrections faces just inherently as a result of those prison locations.

- So year after year, we've heard and that it is really difficult to recruit corrections officers.

Has that changed at all?

Is that still a big issue?

Is it concerning from a public safety perspective?

- I don't think that overall it's changed but I think it has the potential to change.

I think mentioning the new director of Department of Corrections.

I think he's a rock star and I'm very excited for the reforms that he has.

And I think that's, that's on the top of his agenda is to try to address that issue.

And I think in Wyoming, there's just a lot of variables that factor in, I think the location of our state Penn factors into that as well in terms of... You know, it's not Rollins is not a population center it's just not, and it's not, it's not a destination either.

So when you're trying to recruit from other areas of the state, or even out of the state.

Trying to get certain talent, the pay scale is an issue, but also you know, those variables that we have little control over.

The state pen being constitutionally located where it is, you know, but I'm hopeful that the director can address some of the, I think more internal issues, pay, culture, and things of that nature.

- You have year after year been concerned recently about the death penalty in Wyoming.

I think we might have differing opinions here.

- Just a little bit.

- Our discussion today, let's take the affirmative first and we'll come back to you, Senator.

Why is it important for Wyoming to abolish the death penalty?

- Well, you know, for me personally I've approached it primarily from a moral position and you know, that's always been my position is that I think you know that in, in our laws no matter what they are inside of our books that enshrine what it is we say that our citizens can do, can't do, should do, shouldn't do what, However we say it those reflect our values as a state.

And I think that the death penalty prime example is that the value we want to hold that we believe that the only way to enact justice is to take a life for a life.

I think that's inconsistent.

I'm, pro-life, I'm a pro-life conservative.

And so I believe I have to be consistent across the board.

That means protecting innocent life.

And it means protecting life from birth to natural death.

So that's number one for me.

I do think there's a fiscal consideration for the state and that's been a conversation that we've been having for years.

What is the, what is the fiscal impact.

We know about our death penalty defense fund which is an appropriation just under $2 million.

One thing it's 1.7 that rolls over and kicks in, in the in the event of a trial.

- Capital case yeah.

- Of a capital case, yeah.

You know, there were other costs associated with the death penalty, both on both sides.

And I think that's a conversation we have yet to actually have in the state of Wyoming which is you look at the, just on the prosecution side.

The costs are still born and they're born by the state and not by the counties, which I think creates a fundamental issue that counties choose to prosecute.

But the state pays, pays both the defense and pays reimbursement to the counties.

You know, they pay about a quarter of their prosecution costs through the budget.

So I think there's a fundamental issue there.

And the biggest fundamental issue that occurs there is what we have yet to really pull out in the data is how the death penalty is applied in Wyoming.

It's applied inconsistently.

If you look at the counties that prosecute, the counties that they're...

It's not applied consistently across counties.

And I believe that that could be a budgeting issue.

It could be that that prosecutorial offices that don't have the funding to pursue a capital case don't have the time to devote to it the cost of expert witnesses, et cetera.

We saw that with an accountant who recently came to the appropriations committee to ask for extra appropriation for experts.

If they don't have it, they don't pursue a capital case.

And the ones that have it pursue a capital case.

And that doesn't make sense if I commit the same crime in Laramie County, that I commit in pick your, you know Westin County, same, same facts scenario but the budget is what decides whether there's a capital case.

I think that's a constitutional issue.

- So, I understood the death penalty stays on the books?

- Well, I do think that's a question that we should continue to reevaluate year after year.

It's, it's very difficult conversation to have and I don't think anyone is really pro death penalty in that concept where we enjoy what is generally a very dark and gruesome conversation.

The finances surrounding it are I think, up to interpretation.

I know that the budget appropriation allotted to the public defender's office is only utilized when there's actually a case.

So it's actually not being appropriated or expended year after year after year.

It is only when the rare circumstances occur in this state where a capital case is pursued.

What we do know is that the death penalty and those capital cases are used as a negotiation tool in a case where someone is facing no doubt a life without parole situation the crime underlying the action is severe and heinous and significant that would result in that type of outcome.

And so when a defendant is choosing his options of whether or not to go to a lengthy and costly and emotionally burdensome and technical jury trial, they're gonna take that choice when they have no other option other than life without parole.

And so if you have the death penalty as an ability as a negotiating tool, as gruesome and as difficult as that may be, it's quite effective.

And the irony exists that those defendants who would take the lives of another typically choose the one where they can save their own.

So I do think- - And return the state, the burden of this very fiscally challenging and emotionally challenging trial - Right?

So, so a jury trial of a capital case or even life without parole is going to be lengthy.

It's gonna be costly.

It's gonna require a significant amount of experts associated with DNA crime lab.

It all depends on the type of crime committed of course.

But make no mistake, jury trials are very, very expensive and very difficult on the community and not to mention the victims.

- Two more bills I wanna talk about.

We don't have a lot of time but I want to mention them.

One is a Santa Fe at 124 that you've carried Senator Nethercott.

Defending Wyoming business trade commerce amendments.

This came out of issues surrounding the pandemic and meat and then agribusiness how's that progressing?

- Yeah, a really important bill that the country has been experiencing a challenge associated with probably a monopoly associated with the four big meat packers.

And our ag industry is well aware of this concern.

They've been trying to address it for many years.

It really elevated in its, in its activity in concerns about antitrust concerns regarding these monopolies of the four big meat packers that control 80% of this country's production of meat.

And so in 2015, it became really relevant and really apparent that there was some market manipulation occurring.

And of course, when the pandemic hit, it became really fever pitch.

And our attorney General's office with other attorneys general across the region, initiated litigation and wanted to take investigatory action associated with the actions of these meat packers.

What we saw is that in Northern Colorado, which much of Wyoming's meat is shipped and processed to, the closing of processing plants.

And the closures of those plants it's believed that it wasn't really authentically done.

It wasn't done as a result of a lack of market conditions but was done intentionally by the meat packers to manipulate the market, causing an impact to consumers who are purchasing meat.

You, you saw a lack of availability of meat in your grocery stores and the costs increasing.

- Yes, I'll be running to the store buying more than I probably should have.

- That's right.

So, you know, what caused that?

Was it the pandemic, or was it something more, and and it is the belief of many states and the ag producers and those attorney generals who represent us, that it was not as a result of the virus or as a result of any other consequence from that but really was an effort for market manipulation.

And so the bill empowers the attorney general with additional tools that would have been very advantageous for us to have in place before, in order to take action against some of these market manipulation tactics.

- Representative, have you heard that in your committee?

- Yeah.

I mean, I think Senator just hit the nail on the head.

I mean, it's her baby and I think it's coming at the right time.

I agree that had we had those tools in the tool belt, if in fact and I do believe that market manipulation is the true issue, we would have been able to to get into suit and address it earlier.

You know, lawsuits take a long time, but I I think it's a good time to put them in the tool belt.

- Lastly what I want to talk about kind of quickly is Senate file 151.

You brought this, Senator Nethercott also.

Pharmacy Freedom of Choice.

It was assigned to the labor committee.

You asked that it not be heard.

What's the issue?

- So the issue is the inability of Wyoming patients to use their local pharmacists.

Primarily as a result of our insurance company in Wyoming are Primary One.

We really only had two in the state.

- And one big one.

- And one big one, entering into contracts with national pharmacies, you know, for cost savings which is certainly critical and certainly important as we know, the cost of healthcare is increasing.

But as a result of that cost saving measure Wyoming patients who need medicines are having to go out of state for their medicine and it's being shipped in from out of state and really diverting access to the local pharmacy.

And so I find that it's an unacceptable result for Wyoming patients who have a relationship with their local pharmacist and their local pharmacist knows their health care history, cares about them as the person, as opposed to receiving a call randomly from a call center, from an out of state national pharmacy to ship it in randomly.

And it's just, I think having a negative impact on our patients - So much more to discuss that we just don't have time.

I was hoping to get to your thoughts on education Medicaid.

Like we've asked everyone else.

These are hard, hard votes.

And, and I apologize for not being able to, to get to that but I want to thank you both for joining us.

A lot of very complex issues that are very important.

So thanks for joining us on Capitol Outlook.

- Yeah, thanks for having us.

- Thank you.

- Well, I'll talk to the Senate side of the revenue committee with Senate, the chairman of the revenue committee, Senator Kale Case and also our, excuse me, Senator Whitney Schuller.

Also a member of the revenue committee, stay with us.

- And as we continue on with this week's Capitol Outlook we're gonna talk revenue again, this time with the senate side of the picture.

Chairman of the Senate Revenue Committee, Cale Case, and Revenue Committee member, Senator Wendy Schuler.

Thank you so much for joining us here on Capitol Outlook.

- It's very nice to be here.

- Thank you.

- I want to talk now more about revenue and in a letter to the to Uinta County Herald, Senator, about two or three weeks ago.

You said this, you said, "We can't go on."

"We can go on at length about cuts, but the bottom line is we can't cut to the bone without also generating some revenue."

"We must diversify our tax base and our economy."

So many legislators right here have said the same thing.

And it's so difficult.

What's your vision of what that means?

- Well, I believe that we have to have cuts because of the situation that we're in.

Our budget shortfalls are gonna require that we take some cuts and as long as we are very considerate with how we do 'em and really make sure that they're focused and they don't hurt people too badly.

I think some programs are gonna get hurt pretty badly, but I think there's a, there's just a point there, a tipping point where you just have to say no more, and we've got to come up with some revenue.

And that's the bottom line is, I think of it like a muscle.

You can cut away muscle and skin, but when you get down to the bone, there's this no more that you can cut and be in and feel good about it.

And so I, I believe we've got to have some- - Do your constituents... Before we give Senator Case a chance to chime in.

Do they believe that this budget has been cut to the bone?

Or do you still have constituents who say, "Too much fat in Cheyenne, come on."

- I've got a little bit of both.

I've got a smaller probably group that think that we just really need to do more of a cut to our state agencies than we have.

There's some that really believe that we haven't cut education as much as we should.

And then we have others that just feel like everything we've done this year thus far has been pretty devastating and it's really gonna cause some pain.

And I believe I'm right in the middle.

I think that we probably needed to maybe cut a little sooner than we have in some areas, but I just don't want to see us lose programs that are valuable to our constituents, our seniors, our students, our teachers, our disabled folks.

There's just so many programs out there that I feel like are really gonna be hurting.

- And we'll get to K-12 funding here in a little bit, Senator Case?

- Well, you know, I've tended to support all the cuts that have come around with some exceptions.

We all have our important favorites, I think, and things that we really know enough about to understand that we're getting in a severe situation.

But I've tried to support every revenue measure that's come about.

And that's where we're really deficient is we just don't have a lot of revenue opportunities.

And until we get some revenue measures, we're gonna have to look at more cuts.

I would like to see folks in Wyoming really put, talk about how they wanna see this diversified revenue stream.

We hear that, we hear that, but we're getting the votes for it.

Nothing is moving forward in the legislature except for the, possibly the tolling bill.

That's probably the biggest thing on the table.

- I-80 tolling is what you're talking about- - Yes, sir.

- A chance to have that maybe implemented in three to four years, depending on how the state and the federal government negotiate with one another essentially.

You're gonna get a chance to maybe decide on a half-penny tax for education.

Again, maybe in the future.

Have you given thought to K-12 funding, it's coming your way.

The House bill has now passed the House, it's coming coming to the Senate.

Among other things will be a half-penny sales tax.

If the LSRA account, the Legislative Stabilization Reserve Account, drops below 650-million, projected to maybe happen in three, four, or five years.

Is that half-penny something you both can support, Senator Case?

- I think I can, but you know, I really don't get to decide, and I'm not sure the Senate is gonna be receptive.

I would suspect that that that tax increase in the House Education bill is not gonna make it through the Senate.

Let's be pretty realistic about that.

- And why is that?

Is it a recognition that the savings account is too large?

That we really don't need revenue, there's still more to cut?

What's your perception of why that is?

- Well, we're talking about education and there definitely is a prevailing feeling, and I think I share a lot of it, that education has not received the cuts that the rest of the state government has.

And that there's plenty of folks that have laid down the line and say, "I will not vote for a tax increase until we see some significant cuts in education."

I am not that person.

I am supporting cuts and I'm supporting revenue measures both, because we're so far from coming together.

And I do get kind of annoyed with lots of people that say, "I'm not ready to support revenue measures until we do this."

And I'm like, it takes so long to stand up revenue measures.

We need to support those and be very conscientious of both the education budget and the general budget.

- The primary cuts that you'll have a chance to vote on from the House Education bill have to do with ghost health insurance for the fact that the state is paying for everyone's health insurance.

When in fact, not every educator or school district employee takes the health insurance.

But that's a significant cut.

It's gross to about $59.7 million up to $66 million in the third year when fully implemented, and then theoretically grows at a higher rate than the other escalators because health insurance has done that historically.

- You gotta remember that all that stuff though is, it's the model.

It's affecting the outside of the model.

And so it's changing the assumptions of the model with respect to teachers, health insurance, these kinds of things.

It's not really going in and surgically cutting- - Absolutely not.

The block grant is still there, if you will.

- Exactly.

- But it is a cut, no doubt.

So where do you stand at this point?

- Well honestly, I would be in favor of the penny, or the half-cent, either one.

And for that reason, I think there's the stability of having revenue coming in that would be sustainable.

I think is probably the real reason.

Now can education take some cuts?

Yes, and I agree with the Senator here that I think we probably haven't taken as much as some.

My biggest problem I had with the cuts that were mentioned was the fact that we took the local control away from our our superintendents and school boards.

And we, as a legislature, made some of the decisions on our bill anyway, and same with the House.

And I really believe that if we gave the superintendent's the opportunity in their districts, to make the decisions as to where those cuts needed to come, I think they would do a great job.

But I would definitely advocate for both the penny and the half-penny.

- When you say, We, to me it's almost has a dual meaning, (laughs) because you're a longtime educator, since retired, but over 40-years as an educator.

- Yeah.

I was there a long time and I'm still smiling, so I think that's a good thing.

(laughing) But no, I, even in my own district, I mean, and I taught in a couple of different districts.

I could always see some places where we could cut.

And I believe since the state agencies took 10%, that education's got to take some cuts.

But I just feel like those superintendents and those school boards really ultimately that local control that we like to give 'em, I would like to have seen us say, "Hey, let's see what you can do in your own district."

Instead of saying, here's how many kids you're gonna have in a classroom.

Here's what we're gonna do with ghost teachers or ghost insurance or whatever.

However, maybe this is where we had to start to get it done, I'm not sure.

- I think a lot of it becomes as to what is defensible in court and maybe what isn't.

So we'll see as that debate happens with them in the next few days in the Senate.

A couple of bills I want to ask you about, Chairman Case.

You're gonna have the opportunity to either bring House Bill 151 to the table or not in your committee, which is the Rolling Stock Tax Exemption, Sunset Extension.

The governor broadly has said he supports removing exemptions, sales tax exemptions.

What are your thoughts on that bill?

- Well, it's a bill that has a... this is for the repair and refurbishing of railroad rolling stock.

That tax exemption has been on and off and on and off.

And we actually have data that shows whether it does any good and I'm going to submit to you that it doesn't do any good.

It was scheduled to come off this coming year.

- And is we speak today.

- Yeah, that's what the law says.

I wanna stand with that.

I really think we've had such a difficult time dealing with exemptions and removing 'em.

You've got the governor, you've got almost everybody agrees that we should be getting rid of exemptions in Wyoming.

And just, here's an example.

If you look at South Dakota, their sales tax is a third more powerful than our sales tax at the same rate, because they tax a lot more things.

And Wyoming just has a lot of exemptions.

And this was one that was scheduled to come off.

We voted to make it come off and now we're gonna change the rules.

People would like to see it be gradually extended.

And I'll tell you what, if you wanna get something out of the legislature, the exemptions are a good target.

It's a nice way to do something for your industry, the local economic development people pile on, but the truth is the econometrics of it aren't very good.

So here's what I'm gonna do, the governor wants to get rid of exemptions.

Cale Case wants to get rid of exemptions.

We need to get rid of exemptions.

But yet (chuckles) two of my committee members have signed onto this bill to extend the exemption.

And so I'm gonna let the committee tell me what to do and we'll figure that out.

- What are your thoughts on the rollings stock exemption extension?

- As a rule I agree with Senator Case on a lot of these exemptions.

This particular one, because it hits my community, so really harder than probably any place else in the state.

We have over a hundred people employed at this particular facility that repairs these.

It would really, it would be a big hit for our community.

And the reason I really push towards trying to keep it is because we had the pandemic.

And so all of a sudden a company that was ready to expand and add more people to their company, all of a sudden had to start laying off.

And that affected, I mean before they even left I know that were folks that were having a difficulty that were laid off in that particular area, to try and find jobs.

And these jobs that are there are really, really, good paying jobs for our community.

And I basically I say that they still are paying sales and use tax, those folks that live there.

They're still buying things, they're buying cars, they live in our community.

And so they they are still providing tax tax base to our communities.

- We have talked a little bit about interim topics.

What is on the top of your list to carry this revenue discussion forward in a thoughtful way, keeping in mind all of the time and effort that has been given to revenue issues before that had just fallen flat?

- All right, well let's remember that we have a lot of new committee members that haven't been really through the tax structure discussions about Wyoming.

We have a new house chairman.

A great knowledgeable guy, but we've got to bring everybody along.

There's some ideas.

I think you're going to see more effort in terms of the electricity taxing proposals that were advanced.

Remembering we need to tax what we ship out of the state.

And so we were starting to get some traction on an electricity, it's basically a generation gross receipts tax, and see where that goes.

We've still got this exemption discussion and maybe we can solidify on some of that.

A lot of education to do.

We have to remember that if we are going to move tax measures forward there is a delay.

An excise tax, like a sales tax, or other types of excise tax, we could do that earlier than the property tax which is way out there.

And we're still monitoring, as we move into the ad valorem mineral taxes being paid on a monthly basis, we'll be tracking that.

There's a lot of work to do, but hopefully the legislature gets around to wanting to do taxes.

'Cause Wyoming needs us to have a diversified tax base.

- I would totally agree.

I think that we've just put our head in the sand and thought we could just get by.

At least there's some folks that we work with over there on our side that just don't believe that we have cut deep enough and that we need to look at revenue.

And I think we need to do both.

We need to make some cuts, but we also need to look at revenue and get after it and see if we can't bring some something that's a little more sustainable.

We can't rely on oil and gas and coal as we've done in the past to pay our bills.

- You're learning more by the minute.

I'm learning more by the minute, about what the American Rescue Plan might mean to Wyoming.

And what we're learning is changing by the minute, too.

But are you worried, are you concerned, coupled with an perhaps an unanticipated uptick in oil that the state is getting a little more money than it had planned for and now we've got this federal money's coming in that may or may not have less strings attached to it, that now we just don't have to talk about revenue for awhile?

- Every single member I think would love to have an excuse not to vote for a tax.

So it doesn't take much noise in the background to make him say, "Well this isn't the right time."

And we see it all the time.

I'm like, come on, it's all noise.

It's all temporary.

It's all transit.

We really have to focus on the longterm sustainability of Wyoming.

So I hope it doesn't look too rosy, and I hope it doesn't diffuse discussion in the interim about really getting down and being serious.

Right now the I-80 Tolling bill's going to be the most serious effort we have.

- Senator Schuler, last word today.

- Well, same thing.

I'm right on board with Senator Case.

I hope the money doesn't muddle the waters to the point where people say, "Oh, we've got this money, we don't need to do any of these cuts."

We do need to do cuts, but we need revenue and we need to find some ways.

And like I said, I'm more of a fan of the sales tax just because it comes in a little quicker.

And I think it's something that seems a little more fair and equitable.

But I think the bottom line is, if you do look at all the studies, we are the next to the lowest state in the country with our tax burden.

And we've just had it so easy that we've been blessed.

And so Wyoming residents just feel like if there's anything out there that they're gonna have to raise taxes on that it's a terrible thing.

And I say we've gotten a lot of really good services over the years and we haven't had to pay much for those services.

So it's time - We'll follow you closely in the interim, for sure.

Chairman Case, Senator Schuler, thank you so very much for joining us on Capitol Outlook.

- Thank you, both.

- It's a pleasure.

- Real pleasure.

- It's now time to visit with the leadership of the Wyoming legislature.

That's next.

Stay with us.

- And as we continue on with Capitol Outlook, again, it's our pleasure to have our weekly discussion with the leadership, Representative Eric Barlow, the Speaker of the House.

- Morning.

- [Craig] And Senator Dan Dockstader, the President of the Senate.

Welcome to you both again.

- Good morning.

- [Eric] Good morning.

- First, a little bit of housekeeping.

The schedule's been altered a little bit this week.

It's announced that the legislature will actually work the Tuesday and Wednesday after Easter.

What came into that decision?

- Well, I think that the, as you know, we're at a 34-day session.

We have... Or that's what our plan has been.

Two days, we got knocked offline, if you will.

Big storm, historic storm.

Cheyenne, Wyoming.

But we still have work to do.

And so the decision was do we work a Saturday, or maybe two.

Well, that puts us in Easter weekend.

So I think there's just a sense that we still need to do work.

We can do it afterwards.

I think many of the members on the House side will be participating virtually.

They'll go home for Easter weekend, spend that three days with their families, and then Tuesday, and if we need Wednesday, we'll have that.

The other thing is, and, just to be honest, there may be some veto overrides we need to consider, too.

So we need that three days after...

When you come back, the governor has three days after we send a bill to him, the House and the Senate, to veto, and we'll have that available to us.

- Mr. Speaker, you talked about the education bill, that ultimately came out of the House and now is coming to the Senate, needs to be equitable, adequate, and defensible.

And I think you're convinced that the House's product is that.

- Well, and to be fair, I don't know that the House's product is all those things, but that's what our educational program needs to be.

And so what we looked at, what I, when we brought... Hopefully sent forward to the Senate is the tools to continue that, to continue to provide that equitable, adequate, and defensible education budget and program.

We built four legs in that bill, and the Senate can pick and choose.

I hope they'll consider it a buffet, (chuckles) and they can pick and choose, and then we'll go from there.

But that was certainly our effort, was to put every tool on the table.

- Those four legs I think you're talking about are diversions from the LSRA, a half-penny sales tax that will back up the LSRA should it ever fall below $650 million, cuts to phase in with a different approach than has really been talked about before.

These are ghost insurance money is the...

The money that the state pays to districts for insurance for its employees, and not all employees, A, are hired, not all employees use the health insurance, so there's substantial savings to be there.

And then also potential American Rescue Plan monies.

Is that how you see what's coming to your desk?

- That's correct.

Well, we'll look at those four legs as they come over.

As this program airs, we'll be studying the buffet closely.

(chuckles) - It's hard to envision school as a buffet, but yes, that's kind of what it is, but I mean, one of the big deals in the bill, and when I was doing my score-keeping at home, I didn't think it was gonna pass.

A couple votes changed at the end, and the half-penny sales tax that may be invoked in three, four, five years, if the reserve account drops below a certain amount of money, ended up in the House bill.

Can it survive in the Senate is the big question.

- That'll be a big question as we look over the House's work.

We appreciate all the work they went into.

That was an in-depth... That's an in-depth piece of legislation that came over.

And there was a lot of discussion, a lot of work, a lot of research that went into that.

And we got, we have to respect that work as it comes into the Senate.

We'll take a hard look.

Is the support there for the techs?

Early on, it wasn't.

We'll continue to visit with each of our members, but that is...

Probably will be a challenging point in the legislation.

- Representative Simpson deserves a lot of credit in this work, it seems to me.

- Absolutely.

Actually, Representative Simpson brought forth a lot of good ideas.

One thing I think I... Take a step back, the bill is actually a pretty big bill.

There's four concepts, but the heart of the bill is actually what our educational model is, how we actually- - Codified, if you will.

- Codifying the funding model of education in the state of Wyoming.

It's not that it hasn't been law before, but it's been in a lot of different places.

So we've basically tied it all to one place.

So now what the House had, and now the Senate has, is they have everything.

And maybe the buffet comment wasn't the right one, but now they have the entire menu.

They can actually understand everything on the menu.

And then there's policy choices in it, as in all of those, so they can...

They can have a look at the number of teachers per student.

They can have a look at the number of principals per student body, et cetera.

All of that's there; it's on the table.

And that, quite honestly, is...

I'm not saying it's a first.

It could be done before, but this is the first time I think they're gonna get to say, "Hey, I can tweak anything in this model."

- It has been difficult to figure all of that out, and I've studied it, and I think you're right.

And to put it all in one place adds to this transparency goal I think that a lot of people have spoken about.

- I think the good work of Representative Simpson helped us lead up to that point.

While not all of his work was passed or accepted, it allowed us to take a deeper dive into a difficult topic, and not to make light of it in reference to buffet.

We respect our education throughout the state, but it does give us a good review now, taking the House's work and bringing a final product back out that will protect our schools, our education, but at the same time put some reality into the spending.

- Just one last word.

I think that it allows you to deflect a little bit, and I think you did, that even though this was a 25-page amendment given late in the game, really, it codified a lot of that amendment that we've been talking about here that became the education bill, really has been what's out there already, and just a small part of it really will do.

- It's basically how we've been operating.

It's how we've been operating for almost 15 years.

- Let's move on to a couple of other issues.

I do wanna talk about Medicaid expansion, and it got a lot of discussion in the House, and now it comes to the Senate.

Mr. President, you told us maybe two or three weeks ago you didn't think the votes were there, but now it has passed the House.

- Now that the House has passed, you're asking does that change the picture?

- Has it changed the picture?

And quite frankly, art money may factor into this decision, too.

- Right.

We have to be careful with the art money and how we predetermine where and how that will be used.

Working with what we have now, the Medicaid expansion may sway some votes now that it's passed in the House.

But I sense there still may not be the votes in the Senate to move it through.

But in the next day or two we're going to be taking a harder look at it, and we'll see where we're at.

I think that's one of the bigger topics in the state as far as what we hear from people across the state.

- And that's why we talk about it, quite frankly.

The Speaker voted for the bill.

Have you landed on where you'll come down on the bill yet, Mr. President?

- I'm going to be...

I'm going to be reserved, because once we move into a program that we open up a new door of spending in a time where we're not quite sure, setting the art money aside, we're not quite sure how that will all unfold in the next few years.

Ultimately, I feel my responsibility is to make sure we have a stable Wyoming, the financial picture is stable.

And if we predetermine how that money's going to be spent and it doesn't work out, then we've got a program that we will have difficulty supporting, because with the progressing years, more of that financial responsibility comes back to the state.

- Isn't it true that, as the bill is written, if the federal government decides to give Wyoming less than 90% of the cost of the program, Wyoming can back out of the program?

- It's my understanding we can.

- So then is your concern that more people than anticipated will enroll in the program?

Is that your base concern?

- Oh, I anticipate many people will enroll in the program.

Comes to money, I'm going to be very cautious.

- And it was presented as the House initially as almost a net positive, initially.

Are you concerned about the long-term fiscal challenges that a Medicaid expansion bill in Wyoming will bring?

- So, first of all, I'd say that if more people enroll, it's because they're in need of access to healthcare.

Or a methodology.

So that doesn't bother me.

I understand the fiscal component that my good colleague, the President's, talking about, but if folks...

There's a need.

There's a need.

There's no question.

As far as the fiscal...

I think five years off it's a wash. For five years it's a wash based on what we understand about what the federal government is offering.

It's a wash. Now, we're also gonna get a billion dollars of other money, and I'm not opposed to saying you know what?

If we wanna backstop where we are just in case, in case there's a concern about the federal government not doing it, or not upholding, I'm fine with setting some money aside to do that.

- Last word I'll give to you about the issue, Mr. President.

It seems to me a lot of what we heard in the House is that we have been trying for years and years and years to solve the healthcare problem in Wyoming, and we haven't been able to do it.

This helps.

It's hard to disagree with that, I think.

- It does help.

We have to be careful, though, with Wyoming's future.

Just immediately fall back on federal funds...

I'm going to use a word of caution with that, going to be very careful when it comes to the future of Wyoming in the fiscal picture.

- Onto another topic, a lot of legislation was proposed for this session that didn't see the light of day.

Mr. President, what do you think about that?

- I brought these notes because I'm always... People will call up and say, "What about that bill, or this bill, or the number?"

And if we hesitate, this is why.

690 total bills requested.

249 total drafts canceled.

441 total bills and resolutions jacketed, meaning they're put into the process.

303 individual legislator bills numbered for introduction.

138 committee bills numbered for introduction.

When I speak of workload now, now you understand.

- Oh, by the way.

There was only 34 days.

- Sure.

- Right.

(chuckles) - But legitimately, primarily these are constituent concerns that probably ignite this process for our legislator to bring this bill forward and stuff, and then constituents say, "Well, jeez.

We have a really important issue to be heard, and it's not-" - They've gone to their representative, or their senator, and said, "This is a concern.

Can we make a minor adjustment," or a very big adjustment, which takes more floor time on both sides of the building.

- Well, it's a pleasure to visit with you both.

Next week will be our final discussion.

I hope that we can have a good conversation of what your top priorities are this coming interim.

And we'll look forward to discussing that with you then.

- Thank you.

- Thank you very much.

- Thank you so much for joining us.

On now to our Capitol Outlook profile with representative Mark Kinner.

He lives in a home that's almost as old as the capital.

That's next.

Stay with us.

(upbeat music) - And as we continue on with Capitol Outlook it's time for our Capitol Outlook Profile and we're pleased to be visiting with Representative Mark Kinner from Sheridan County.

Representative it's good to visit with you again.

- Hi, greetings Craig it's great to see you, and I sure wish we were in person in the Capitol extension or somewhere maybe in the historic chambers and boy wouldn't that be great but- - Yeah, and I hope we can certainly get back to the real world soon.

I wanna talk to you about your childhood as we kinda start talking here.

You weren't born in Wyoming, you saw the light a little bit later, you were born in Danbury, Connecticut and I was looking online at what Danbury, Connecticut looked like.

And to me, you could almost take main street of Sheridan, Wyoming where you live and impose it on Danbury, Connecticut main street and it looks almost the same to me.

Is that what you remember?

- Yeah, it is and of course I'll share with you that's sort of part of my story.

Quite honestly, Craig, is that I went to high school in a place called West Redding, Connecticut in a school called Joel Barlow High School.

And I was a farm kid, quite honestly.

I worked on a dairy farm after school and milk cows and put up hay in the summer and it did all kinds of things.

I did trail work for a Nature Conservancy projects on the summers and do you I watched that farm being gobbled up by land developments, and then I watched all the towns changing and so on.

We were quite honestly a bedroom community for New York City and that just wasn't me.

So when I got ready for considering places and it's a long story we won't get into, but I did have an opportunity with my parents to spend some vacation time in the West and in the mountains.

And I fell in love with the mountains and I knew I wanted to go to college in the West.

And so I applied to the University of Wyoming to Montana State University and the Colorado State University.

And you know what really go pokes because- - There you go.

- The first one I heard from was the University of Wyoming and I said that's a sign that I am supposed to go fast forward so that was in 1970 and so as an 18 year old, I'm moving to Wyoming as an 18 year old.

And then in 72, another brother came, in 73, another brother came in and 73, think of this my parents moved from Connecticut to Casper.

So, and then my little brother finished high in Casper.

So we, I call it sort of a modern-day wagon train and my parents knew that when I was here and fell in love with it and wanted to continue to stay here and my brothers did as well that they were never gonna see us if less, they moved to Wyoming, so here they go.

- You worked in Casper for a while as you started your finance career.

- I did, so yeah.

Upon graduation from the university, I really didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to get into the business world and I thought, how am I gonna do that?

And really, really try to focus in on what might be the best environment for me, well, I heard about a program at a bank in Casper that was an Officer Training Programme and it exposes you to all the different departments of the bank, you were a teller for a while and then you were a loan collector and so on.

And you know what I applied for that and was accepted by First Interstate Bank, well, it was first National Bank in those days and of course there's a whole long story there which would take up too much time to really get into.

But I said, "Well, hey, that's a great idea, I will go to work for the bank."

I knew I always had a business interest and then I will probably run into a business that over time I would really like to get into.

And but you know what I couldn't find anything I liked any more than being a banker and taking care of people's businesses and helping them and I really once I was exposed to the business world through actually the dealer department handling businesses, floor plan lines, and financing cars for people, I just said, "Well, the business world is where I wanna be."

And so my first opportunity to get out of the Officer Training Programme and go into the Commercial Lending Department I just jumped at it and so that was kind of fun.

And actually, I'll tell you if you don't mind just a quick short story there.

So in those days it was a boom, it was boom time in Casper and Tibbie and I wanted to, by the way, Tibbie grew up in Wyoming.

- Your wife?

Her parents were teachers and when her dad retired he was superintendent of schools in Prick County but she went to high school in Lusk.

And I teased former speaker Harshman that Tibbie went to the real NCHS Niobrara County High School it was like some pushback there as you might imagine, right.

- We kind of joke about this a little bit, but it really has, it really rhymes well with Wyoming's boom and bust cycle, while you were in Casper, you bought high and you sold low, and I'm talking about your home.

- Yeah, exactly.

In fact, at one time we had two homes and they were both going down in value.

And so I know what people go through and Craig I have to share with you that that left a lasting impact on me.

And I saved it and I still have it in my desk.

It's kind of buried a little bit, but it would take me a while to find it, but I know I could find it, that I took a photocopy of a set of keys that people walked into my office and threw the keys on my desk and said, "Mark, we're out of money.

We have no way of paying for our house or for this particular car, we're taking the one car that's paid off and we have to leave Wyoming."

And I took a photocopy of those keys because I always wanted to remember that impact that that had on me, but also on our state.

And so we're experiencing some of that right now, right.

With Kohl's and with everything else.

And I remember that clearly, but with two houses both going down when Tibbie and I moved to Sheridan we had to rent for almost five years because we didn't, the money that we had for down payments on the house was gone.

And so we've personally gone through sort of the tough times around Wyoming and we get it when people are struggling.

And I think that's helped me think about the work that I'm doing now in the legislation on the appropriations committee.

I don't forget that at all - Representative your house is not 50 years old.

It's not 75 years old, it's not a hundred years old, it's even older than that.

- (laughs) Craig yeah, we live close to downtown Sheridan and our house is actually, it was built in 1897 and it was built by a Jewish hide merchant named Benjamin Holstein a brick house, it's kind of a they called it a poor man's Victorian and Tibbie and I have just always been intrigued by older homes and this one really appealed to us.

And I won't bore you with the whole story of how that happened and how we ended up with it through a friend.

And, but actually we're only the third family to own this house.

- Wow, wow, - And so we're trying to take care of it.

We've lived here for 25 years and our kids our daughter and her husband have indicated someday they would like to maybe continue to take care of the house.

And so we're just really proud of the house as history in Wyoming.

And he did a lot of things in Sheridan and built some business buildings in downtown Sheridan and was quite a businessman here in Sheridan.

And didn't have his name on a lot of the streets and things like many of the other former founders of Sheridan.

But my dad did some research once upon a time and I think it was in the round, the 1900 census.

It said that the language spoken in our home was Yiddish.

And so that's kind of fun to think about that in the history and of course our great history of our country with people coming together from all places and speaking all different languages and coming together to build our country.

And then in turn build Wyoming.

Wow.

It's just, (laughs) I just love it.

- And it's been wonderful getting to know you over the years Representative.

I certainly appreciate the time that you have spent with us, and I look forward to continue seeing you again.

So thank you so much for sitting down with us for this Capitol Outlook Profile.

- Absolutely.

And to our folks out there in Wyoming, good times are ahead.

We'll work through this and we'll be better and stronger when we do.

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