- Welcome to our final episode of Capitol Outlook from this component of the legislature here in 2021.

There'll be more to follow later, maybe in a special session, but welcome.

I am Craig Blumenshine from Wyoming PBS.

We're pleased to be joined this evening with the Governor of the State of Wyoming, Governor Mark Gordon.

He's a little over halfway through his first term and we have a lot to talk about with him and what the legislature is working through this session.

Then, our weekly conversation with the majority leaders of the Wyoming legislature, Representative Eric Barlow, he's the House Speaker, and Senate President, Dan Dockstader.

Then, we're gonna turn to the minority's perspective with minority whips.

That's Senator Mike Gierau and Representative Andi Clifford, and we'll end with our Capitol Outlook profile this week with Representative Chuck Gray.

That's next as Capitol Outlook starts now.

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- It's our pleasure to be joined by the 33rd governor of the State of Wyoming, Governor Mark Gordon.

Thank you Governor, for spending time with us and welcome back to Capital Outlook.

- Well, thanks Craig, always enjoy this conversation.

- You're a little over midway through your first term here Governor, but I wanna talk about what might be on your plate right now, and that is your ability to have a line-item veto.

You have been given a budget from the House and the Senate that was, came to you in almost record time, much agreed upon with the budget you presented them.

One of the things that's in that budget, Governor, that I'd like you to comment about and then you can talk maybe about any vetoes you've considered, is Wyoming still gonna save money here even after your $400 million plus cuts?

And I'm speaking of $160 million that's gonna go to the Permanent Mineral Trust Fund, $200 million or more to the LSRA Account, Governor, how can that be at this time when you've had to make substantial cuts in the budget?

- Well, and Craig, thank you for that, and it was certainly music to my ears to hear on the floor of the Senate that the real fiscal conservative is downstairs.

But the cuts weren't easy and it was difficult.

We still aren't out of the woods, I'm sure we'll probably talk a lot about Wyoming's future at this point.

And it is just prudent to try to make sure that we have a little bit of flexibility going forward and that's what the LSRA does.

And I think, you know, and hopefully the people watching know that the LSRA really backstops so many things we do from schools to the Hathaway to general fund spending.

It really is sort of the gasoline behind what happens during the course of the year.

So I do think it makes some sense to put money back there.

You know, this has been an incredibly trying, you said a little bit over halfway through my first term which seems like it's been about 40 years over the course of 2020, but we have, it's been a very complicated time financially.

At a time when we were cutting $430 million, at the same time we were having to spend 1.2 of the federal funding and now we have this new plan coming along.

So it's a complicated time and I think what we tried to do in our budget and I was very happy the legislature saw it that way too, was to try to balance that against what the future is.

- Any red ink that you might put in the budget as far as any line-item vetoes which you have the power to do?

- I do and we considered those very, very carefully.

You know, the legislature, when I first became governor, we made a big point about not legislating in the budget.

And so for the most part, the language change has changed from the governor shall do this, or the executive branch shall do that, to it is the intent of the legislature that, and so where those places are where there's very prescriptive, almost legislative approaches that come into budget which is unconstitutional.

We've really stayed the course, the course there.

I'm a little bit concerned about pulling money out of corrections to fund schools.

We obviously know school funding is an enormous issue, and I certainly recognize that and respect it, but we cut enormously out of corrections and, you know, the viability of that program, we have a new director, you know, there were some things that I think are unfortunate, in that we still have the same number of positions for mental health counseling, but we don't have the funding for it, those kinds of problems.

And so I really am reluctant to see corrections robbed so that we can fund education.

- Let's talk about COVID-19, a couple of issues I wanna visit with you about that.

First is you heard President Biden on Monday ask governors to reinstate mask mandates, I think a White House conference call at least was available to you on Tuesday, not sure whether you participated in that or not.

I believe your office has said the metrics are looking good for Wyoming, I'm not interested in a mass mandate now.

But governor, what are the thresholds or are there any thresholds out there that potentially could drive you to reinstate a mask mandate?

- Well, first and foremost, we started the whole COVID crisis with a call to personal responsibility, and that really is where we've stayed.

We also said that we were gonna be data-driven.

I don't think politics really should enter into this conversation.

It ought to be what's happening in Wyoming, what are we seeing?

If the levels rise to an area where there's concern, and there's, you know, a predictable trend and other things, we would consider doing something with a more stringent protocol, but I don't believe we need to do that.

I think that Wyoming, we have the experience, we're coming back, our businesses are working, I know we had a little bit of a flutter with some people concerned about schools, my interest, and I'm so happy we got our basketball tournament completed, even had a snow storm that kept people there.

So it was that Wyoming back to normal, but we wanna make sure that our school and year ends with proms, with graduations in-person, with athletics, with schools that are full and working, in-person, and that's where we wanna keep ourselves, and that's just due to the good, the good work of Wyoming citizens.

So we'll keep there.

- Seems to be that hospitalizations was what tipped you over the edge last time around.

- That is correct.

Hospitalizations, you know, I think it's pretty clear Wyoming is vulnerable to having neighboring states, as well as our own hospitals, over capacity fairly quickly.

We saw hospitals close to Wyoming patients both in Montana and in Utah last year for a period of time, also South Dakota.

And that's where the best care that you can get in Wyoming that, you know, that tier four care goes.

So, it's a complicated assessment.

We have to take into account what's going on in our neighboring states, but most especially here.

But the nice thing is that our hospitalizations have come down and they have stayed at relatively low level.

- I wanna talk to you about Medicaid expansion.

It's been that it is in this legislature historically passed the House, died in the Senate Committee this week.

You've been a little quiet about it, from your executive office Governor, what did you think about as this was matriculating through the process?

- Well, I think there's some concerns.

I felt, and, and Craig, I did ask that the Senate hear it on the floor.

I know there's a lot of reluctance to even consider it, look at it, but I'm hearing from constituents, others have heard from constituents, it's a much more balanced group of I guess comments that are coming our direction.

I was frankly very surprised that it passed the House.

I had talked to both the House and the Senate to figure out if it was gonna go anywhere and was pretty much told that it might not happen.

And then it did, and it came out of the House.

I talked to Senate leadership and said, "I think, you know, it got out of committee the first time in the Senate.

At least it should be heard on the floor.

I don't know how the vote's gonna go, I'm not trying to be in the middle of that, but at least it should be heard in the floor."

To your point though, where do I stand on this?

I have asked the Department of Health to work with me to really think about what the implications are.

Right now we know that they're throwing money, it's sort of an outright bribe, please join us in Medicaid expansion.

And I think there's wisely some who are saying, "What is the cost gonna be down the road?"

Well, we need to know that.

What I think people really have to bear in mind is medicine and Wyoming is in trouble, I think we all know that.

You know, we have a challenge keeping doctors here, we have a challenge with our client base, most of our most important medicine, you know, the cardiac and other things ends up going out of state.

It makes things difficult.

So regardless of whether we pass Medicaid expansion or not, we've gotta talk about what medicine in Wyoming and particularly medicine in the central part of our state is gonna look like.

- So it begs the question, and part of this was in testimony on the House floor, and again, in committee this week.

Okay, we have been at this for a long time and we have tried to have solutions for healthcare.

Can private sector folks buy into the state health program, this thing called cowboy care that former speaker Harshman talks about.

We have tried everything under the sun to improve it, and there's nothing else out there, this is it.

- Right.

- Do you agree that this is it?

- No, I think that, you know, hopefully over the next couple of years, we'll have a chance to really discuss what the options are going forward.

You know, as you said, we had cowboy care, we had the pool for those that were uninsurable, there were a lot of aspects around that.

There's been, you know, everybody has talked about ways that we can bring more competition to Wyoming, ways that we can try to drive costs lower.

All of those are I think still on the table and worthy, but the problem is we just don't have the volume, and that's gonna continue to be a problem.

And what sort of holds that up in my mind is that Cares Act came, hospitals got a tremendous amount of just, you know, I guess a lot of money that came over the transom last year, this new ARPA plan will probably bring more.

And so it gives a false sense of security, you know, we're flush again, but the fundamentals remain the same.

Our population is aging, we're getting smaller, we aren't seeing as many kids born in Wyoming.

And we've got to have a robust conversation about what that means.

- Governor I wanna give you an opportunity to respond something that was out on the internet.

And specifically it talks about something we talked about, about a year ago, about what is the Republican Tent?

You are the leader, defacto leader of the Republican party in many's eyes.

Former House member, Marti Halverson, she served on the Wyoming Republican Party Central and Executive Committees and lost in her bid to reelection for the House in 2018, wrote this on an online blog.

She said that "The few Republicans in 2021 clinging to the notion that there is still a big tent are living in the past.

In 2021, there is no big tent of ideologies, any leftover moderate establishment big tent Republicans better pick a side.

There is no mushy middle anymore.

Those who claim that the Republican party is inclusive are right only 20% of the time."

Prior to this session, you had talked to me about what it means to be in the Republican Tent.

Is she wrong?

- Well, let me say this.

Any student of history knows that things change over time.

In my time in the Republican Party in Wyoming, so I grew up here, so I've watched dad go through all of that from the '60s, I still have an ashtray from 1960's Barry Goldwater campaign.

And I've got some pins from that.

And that party is not this party.

In fact, the party when I went to my first convention in the late 1970s as an alternate, that party is not this party, that was Reagan.

And it's interesting to me because to say that it's not a big tent party is to say we're an exclusive club, we only allow certain members to come, and I think that's incredibly unfortunate.

Why the Republican party is as successful as it is is because of fundamental principles.

Fiscal Conservancy, love of freedom, and antisocialist perspective, a belief in what an individual, the responsibility that they have.

And that's not just the, you know, rights, I have rights, that's my freedom, but it is also my responsibility to respect the rights of others in that process too.

So those are core fundamental principles along with government being closest to the people.

People will change, attitudes will change, this too will change, this kind of notion of we're an elite, you know, that was not what took this party forward.

We didn't go forward and say, "We're an elite, so you need to follow us."

We went forward and said, "we're about the common man, we're about people, we're about opportunity, we're about making sure that there's a future for this country."

- What do you believe is most important for this state to really focus on and get right in the coming year?

- Well I think we have a few things that we have to really focus on and get right.

One is we have to understand that our economic circumstances right now are being sort of floated by federal money, and that federal money, as I said, in my state of the state is going to come from generations to come.

It's really unfortunate we're pulling their prosperity into our own.

This is an opportunity that we shouldn't miss to make sure that we invest for the long haul in Wyoming.

That's the state I grew up in, you know, those are the people that my parents, my wife's parents were both in a depression era of people, and they wanted to make sure that we had a future that was better for our kids.

And so Wyoming has got to think about how do we make our state more stable?

It means a more diversified economy.

How do we provide opportunities for, and we've always talked about this, for our kids to come here and to find a way forward in that.

Those are essential things we're gonna have to focus on, and so the components that come off of that are obviously healthcare, education, I think it is about how do we make sure that we are relevant economically going forward in the region, and I've worked a lot with regional capacities that way.

And in the nation, you know, our agricultural industry has the opportunity here to really expand into new markets.

Tourism, we always do well with tourism, we need to make sure that those jobs are quality and better paid.

And we need to make sure that we protect our energy sector as we go forward.

But now with the opportunities for financial services, for light manufacturing, for pivoting quickly on things, just in time manufacturing like we have up in Riverton and other aspects of that, that's where we should be focusing.

- We've covered quite a bit of ground.

I wanna tell our viewers that you have not seen the entire interview with Governor Gordon on this broadcast, but it is out there online and we urge you to go to the Wyoming PBS YouTube page, where the entire interview will be uncut.

So Governor as always thank you for your willingness to spend time with us.

And we look forward to seeing you here in the interim, and again next year.

- Thanks Craig, it's always an honor to be here.

- And now it's our weekly visit with the leadership, the majority leadership of the Wyoming legislature first, that's next, stay with us.

- It's again, our pleasure to be joined by the leadership of the legislature, house speaker, Eric Barlow and Senate president Dan Dockstader thank you to you both again welcome back.

- Good morning.

- We visited with the governor about this a little bit.

And it's something that I'm having some interest put my way about.

And that's the fact that the state is saving money.

At the same time, the state is cutting money and specifically $160 million in the budget you send to the governor will go in the permanent mineral trust fund $200 million plus over the next year and a half, maybe until the LSR legislative stabilization reserve account.

How can that be?

And what should Wyomingites think about when they see that?

Yeah - That's a big picture decision.

We send 160 into the permanent mineral trust account and then we are able to turn around and draw millions over the years from that and continue funding Wyoming.

It's, it's a long-term it's long-term look at taking care of Wyoming.

If we were to spend it all we'll never get it back in a wise household in a wise small business, you'd still tuck some away while you're still trying to bring your, your budget or your household or your business back into reality but don't forget the future.

And we have an opportunity with that trust account to take care of another generation down the road.

- And it, and it provides now about a quarter, I guess, of Wyoming's budget.

When you look at capital gains off those permanent mineral trust funds Mr. Speaker, is that the right?

The right thing to do in your mind with with the fiscal straits that Wyoming's in right now, right?

- I would, firstly, it's not over yet.

Right?

The governor still has some authority.

He can exercise.

- We've talked about that earlier in the show, right?

- So, so, you know, is it, is it right?

I mean, it's where we are.

Two things have happened.

The governor made some significant cuts.

There's no question about that.

So part of what you're seeing is we codified in the budget much of what the governor's work was.

And he did some tough work cutting programs, et cetera.

We restored some of those and there was, you know an understanding restore some of those.

And also all of a sudden our revenues are improving.

So there's, we're kind of caught in two different places.

So I don't know that it's, you know, incorrect due to this timing could maybe would have been a little we liked a little different timing, but it's not I don't know that it's, you know, it's not a coup de grace or anything and it's not over yet.

- And we've talked briefly in the last couple of weeks with you about the American rescue plan and its impact on a lot of decisions that are being made.

But also it's going to lead likely now to special session discussion.

Am I accurate about that?

And what are we looking at perhaps in July with a special session - We're looking at about the middle part of July.

Once we get the holiday over with the July 4th and get in front of a frontier days and come down here and get some work done where we can really focus on it by that time, we'll have the rules and regs out.

We'll know just exactly what we're dealing with.

- You've said before, Mr. President, that you want this to be more legacy oriented rather than today oriented.

Is that still your thinking?

- In my opinion, I want that money to go into projects and and things we do across the state that will benefit the next generation out.

I want to be careful with that.

This is, this is going to be too easy to spend this.

If we're not careful, I want to make sure that we help our communities across the state with if you will, legacy projects that we can look back and say, that was, that was done through through a process that included study and wisdom and and not just writing the checks out to the folks but helping our communities specifically with projects that will take them into the next generation.

- Mr. Speaker, are you on the same page there?

- Very similar.

I think that, you know, everybody's hand is out let's be honest.

We've got, we've got bills up there that we've already worked that, you know, try to get in line for some of those funds.

- And it is a lot of money - Well - It's $2 billion dollars.

- Yeah.

It's, it's significant.

And, and so anyway, so there's a lot of, there'll be a lot of interest and, you know, I think there's probably from my view, it's, you know, maybe we patch some holes some things that we, you know, had to deal with this, this in this current budget, we fix some of those things.

And then, but hopefully the majority of it, we look out further and we don't really have something that's multi-generational - You now are looking at the interim, your your committees are having discussions about what they'd like to study.

Certainly the American rescue plan is going to be a big topic.

We've talked about it in the special session.

What else is on the top of your list that this legislature really aides a study and consider in this upcoming interim, Mr. Speaker, I'll let you start first there.

- Part of it and our body had has 18 new members.

So part of the interim is just educating new members as you know, the new members come in and a general session.

So it's fire hose this year happened to be, you know a sprinkler system because they were coming up going on and off and we're meeting in a disjointed type of an approach.

So part of the interim for me and I hope is what we do is we just start educating our body, again building some knowledge about these different things.

So judiciary spent a lot of time on justice reinvestment and things like that for adults.

So maybe it's time to take some look at some some of the youth Jones, youth juvenile side, you know labor health, if there's other things we can address there.

I mean, so I think part of it is just education what's out there.

We've got fresh, fresh faces, fresh thoughts out there.

They're going to bring some things to the table.

And I think we, you know, we try to be open with that management council is going to, you know give them some direction but hopefully I would like to give them a little bit of a free reign to, to explore some things.

Maybe there's some things out there that, you know folks like me haven't are overlooking.

- We have some new people that haven't had an experience out there and in-person meetings in the interim and that's at least on my side.

That's my goal.

As a, we, we come back and go to work face to face, leave an option for those people who can't do that are cautious about it but bring people back let them get to know each other them know get to know the intern process and delve into the diff difficult topics.

So for example, I'm already on the phone with texts this morning regarding minerals for the interim it's it's time to go back to work in person.

- Is there going to be pressure because of all of the technology and the capital which has worked I think extremely well to bring Wyomingites direct video access to meetings that may not be out there.

If the meetings interim meetings are in other communities is there going to be pressure to have more interim meetings in Cheyenne?

- I don't know about no actually I don't think there'll be more pressures because I think one of always been my experiences going out into our state and going throughout the state, you know whether it's a regional issue that you're looking at as a committee or you just, and you get to visit, you know other communities visit facilities and other communities learn about things.

So I don't, I don't think that the technology will, will hold that back.

Cause I think that's one of the more powerful things that we do as a Wyoming legislature is in the interim.

We go out and we work around the state.

We listened in the state this year.

I'll also have a redistricting.

Yes.

And so that obviously is, you know very hands-on activity, get out there and understand what the different communities and interests are.

So I don't think there's technology is going to try to it's going to tether us to Cheyenne.

Now, do I think that there's going to be people that are interested in us taking the technology with us perhaps potentially.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

And we'll closely look at the communities we meet in to make sure that there's the support for that technology.

- Mr. President, you talked about bringing bills back the management council or others.

One bill that didn't won't make it to the floor.

It appears is Medicaid expansion.

I want to briefly give you an opportunity to talk about that.

Are you sad that it's not going to be debated on the floor of the Senate?

Are you pleased that the committee did its work let's move on?

- My focus was to make sure we use the process.

Trust the process.

There are those who would say, well, leave it in a drawer.

Now, knowing that the Senate is very cautious about this doesn't have the votes for it.

Still the opportunity came that we could assign it to a committee and there's always those assignments.

- And there was an attempt to really move it in this particular - Right?

I come from a school of thought that that topic is a labor and health topic, and that's where it's going to go.

And I'm not going to play games with committee assignments.

We're going to put it there that allow people to watch and still participate in it.

It's just trusting the process.

Will it eventually come to the floor?

Maybe sometime along the way right now, it hasn't.

And it came out of the other body with the four boat advantage is at a mandate to take it through the process.

I'd ask that it'll have its time, but we're not there.

Am I sad?

We, we have to find that balance.

People have many face look at their responsibilities to take care of the poor and needy.

I still put that in my mind and try to sort that out as we deal with this.

But right now we have to be very careful about our fiscal picture.

And I'm going to weigh in on the side of fiscal caution - As we go in our last time together here for a little while outside of the extraction industry what new sectors is the state nurturing perhaps that you are most excited about that might bring some, some real excitement and and energy unintended there, I guess, but to Wyoming - I think that there's been a lot of work on the digital assets, the cryptocurrency, all those things.

And quite honestly, they're out of my understanding.

I've, you know I'm trusting some other folks that we're actually bringing.

And I think they're actually starting to starting to see some of that fruit.

You know, we're starting to see those companies being interested in Wyoming and coming here.

So that's one that I think is out the door.

We're, we're already in that.

And hopefully that actually brings other things here that tag on to that.

So what are they, you know, I think that's that's still out there.

I mean, I'm still on the ranch doing, you know doing the agrarian thing.

So I'm not on any cutting edges.

- With your flip phone.

- With my flip phone and my yak - I was about to add the yak.

Mr. President, what's out there.

That's really exciting for you.

- We're on the digital side, we, in our area we have a high-tech company that does a great job of just taking us into the next generation whether we ask for it or not silver star communications.

And they brought us the high-speed internet before we even asked for it.

And it's incredible what we've had now.

Suddenly people are moving there because they can work with their company anywhere in the nation.

We have a fellow that works with a big company out in Seattle does it from his home in Bedford star Valley, Wyoming.

And I could a San Diego couple with their family moved up and they said, we can raise animals.

And I can still work with my business in San Diego.

And they're kind of family value oriented.

They love the place that's happening.

And at the same time, we worked with silver star to go out and reach out to companies and say can you bring your company to a place like a beautiful star Valley?

Because we have all that you need in terms of digital assets and digital power to to make sure that you can do what you do.

We're, we're making trips we're flying out and talking to people.

That's going to be in addition to all my emphasis on minerals, I'm going to I'm going to focus on that as well.

- As I say, each year, we appreciate the access that we have to you and that other reporters have to you.

I think that we're blessed in Wyoming that you offer this level of transparency that isn't available everywhere else.

And we very much appreciate your time each and every week.

So thank you again for joining us.

- It's our pleasure.

Thank you for taking interest.

- And now we'll hear from the minority leadership of the Wyoming legislature, minority whips Senator Mike Gru and representative Andy Clifford.

That's next.

- And as we continue on with this Capital Outlook in our 15th season, it's our pleasure to be joined by the minority Whips of the Wyoming legislature, Senator Mike Gierau and Representative Andi Clifford.

To you both, welcome back to Capital Outlook.

- Thanks Craig.

- It's been an interesting session I think from everyone's perspective but perhaps a little bit different from your perspective.

And the bill I think that maybe got the most oxygen later, might deserve some comment from you and that's Medicaid expansion.

Representative Clifford, you testified before the Senate Health Committee yesterday, we're filming this Thursday, that was Wednesday, emotional testimony I felt and yet this bill won't make the light of day in the Senate.

What do you think about this this morning?

We'll start with you first.

- You know, I was really honored to have our tribal chairman Dresser come down and testify when we have close to 30% of our, my population of residents on the reservation that are uninsured.

Our life expectancy rate is 56 years, our chronic diseases are heart disease, cancer and diabetes.

And it's just crucial, I wish we would have passed it And it's just crucial, I wish we would have passed it because of the treaties and when we go and get our healthcare, and receive our healthcare, the reimbursable rate was gonna be 100%.

And even if we went off the reservation and went to the neighboring towns to seek, or we had referrals to go outside, that match still would have been 100% to provide care to the state that would have been reimbursable.

And so people are struggling, people are unhealthy and we have to have healthy people to have a good economy to go to work.

- [Craig] Sure.

- You know, so that's important.

- Senator, it has to be a big issue in your eyes as well?

- Yes Craig, it was a huge disappointment that it didn't make the Senate.

Minority Whip Clifford and her folks in the House got it passed through the House.

And that was an important milestone to get that done.

And so to have it pass in the House and then not to make it out of a Senate Committee, frankly, and I'm just gonna play it straight up with you, where it was put in that committee to fail.

The leadership knew that the votes weren't there in that committee for that bill, and so we didn't have that debate on the floor.

Today, we should be having that debate.

The citizens of Wyoming want that debate.

Almost 40% of our citizens are faced some sort of insecurity each month, whether it's health insecurity, food insecurity, housing insecurity, as the good representative said, whether it's tribal issue or just among the rank and file all across the state.

This is a huge issue and it touches our body.

I know there are members of the House and the Senate that faced these same issues, and so why the fear of having it discussed?

Why that just reluctance at a baseline visceral level not to even have the discussion?

I don't know what the issue was.

You know, whether we voted up or voted down, I wanted the state to be able to hear us talk about it so they could begin to have that talk that they're already having at their kitchen tables every month.

When the bill basket gets opened up, what are you gonna pay and what you can't?

This is something that can help.

25,000 people could get health coverage on this alone, and I know there's concerns about the federal government taking the money away or... - Trust issues.

- Yes, but you know, we can write all that in to a bill, we can take care of a lot of those issues, but boy, not to have the discussion.

That was a bitter pill.

- Let me ask you, and we've asked leadership in the democratic party this before, why do you believe Democrats in Wyoming have a tough time getting traction with their party and with some of their candidates, and you only need to look in bicarmel legislatures, Wyoming has the fewest senators of any state, Wyoming has the fewest House members of any state.

In your eyes, why is that?

- Well, I think that we have not done, I think first thing we have to do is look inward, and I don't think that we have done as good a job as we can do about getting our message out.

The other problem I think we have is that we all too often let our political opponents define us.

Let me give you an example, I'm a businessman, I've owned a business in Wyoming for over 40 years, I have 150 employees and our business is very good business.

I am a, you know, a multi-state multi-million dollar CEO of a business and I'm a Democrat.

And for some unknown reason to me, people think that that's some sort of oxymoron.

I've considered myself a Democrat and have all my life because any business person, because I wanna have strong business, I wanna have my employees have healthcare, I want them to have the things that they have to have a good life, a good pay check, the ability to have a life for them and their family, and then also to pay taxes so they can pay for the programs that I like so much that helps more people.

- For me, it's multifaceted, just being an indigenous person and the values that we have, we align better with those democratic values and the democratic party.

But I think I put the onus on us as the elected Democrats.

And I think that we can do a better job, we have to because we're in it, we're experiencing, we're in the session, we're in the process, we are voting on things that are crucial to Wyoming.

And I think for me personally there is always that fear, the fear, and I think that ideology national politics, particularly now in this age, and I think we need to get over that.

And I talk about myself too, that I need to speak up and I need to speak out and that it's okay.

And it's okay that we agree to disagree on that, but we stick to our morals.

And I think at the end of the day when we start fostering relationships, when we just start having a frank discussion about what it is to live in Wyoming, there's a lot of stuff that we'll agree on.

And if we can craft legislation that can help strike a balance, you know, all of that good stuff that we learn every day here.

But I think we need to step up in that, we do.

- As you begin to look back on the work of the legislature here, what are the positives?

What are the good things in your eyes that you've been able to accomplish here in the last few weeks?

And then with the virtual session earlier?

- Gosh, it just feels like I don't do enough.

I don't do enough, so it's always warming to me when I hear from my colleagues, you know, the little words of encouragement, but particularly from constituents back home, you know, but I always constantly feel like I don't do enough.

- What is this legislature gotten right?

- Well, Craig, I think that, you know, you kind of have to look at it globally.

A year ago today we were on the ropes in the state, and global pandemic fear amongst the citizenry about where this was going and what was going to happen.

We had just left session, we passed a budget, all of a sudden because of other economic pressures in oil markets, all of a sudden oil was running in negative numbers.

Like I say, a global pandemic sweeping the country.

We were on the ropes, our financial forecast for the year that we just predicated a budget on, weeks before were completely wiped out.

- [Craig] Right.

- And we gathered in a special session.

We worked with the governor who I think did an excellent job.

And you're asking before about, you know, Democrats and why there aren't more, sometimes I think we need to agree then and know that we have agreements with folks on the other side.

And one is, I think our governor did a tremendous job of putting together a plan.

I think that he involved the legislature, I think we stepped up, the federal government stepped up, and is continuing to do so.

And we have worked through this pandemic.

I know it is not been easy for the governor, it has not been easy for us, but we've worked through it.

And today, a year later, you know, people, everyone who wants a vaccine now in this state can get one or very close to it within the next 30 days, we'll be able to, because of the work the legislature did, helping small business, helping large business.

I think that, and we worked hard on that to make sure that the impact on those businesses was, while tough, as good as it could be given all the trouble that was there.

And now we look at it now a year later and we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

It's been a tough budget session.

We have cut, we have had to make cuts.

It's been serious, but I think that with the next round of CARES Act or ARP money, they call it, that we're poised now to receive where might be able to backfill some of those things.

And so over the course of a year we've gone through some real lows but I think coming out of it, I think we can look at each other in the eye and say we pulled together.

And we came together as a state and I think we've done the best we can do.

And I also think that that's a roadmap for the future.

- Yeah, let's talk about the future a little bit.

You both are in the process with your various committees of talking about interim topics.

What does Wyoming really need to get right in the interim?

- Craig, I think that one of the things that we need to do is we need to be bold.

We need to keep an eye on our past as far as what has transpired, but we need to look to the future.

I see a future where we take some of this ARP money and we put together and work with the Wyoming Business Council which I think did a tremendous job in the last year, but I can hope we put some money together.

I mean, a couple of hundred million dollars into a business incubator account where people can come, business owners, startups, young people, people coming out of UW or community college system, can come with their ideas and work through a vetting system with the business council, bankers, our SLIB board of top five elected officials, and really get an impetus to drive some new businesses that can stay in Wyoming.

I think that's one thing that we can do.

I also think that we can't stop looking away from these healthcare issues that we have as my good friend, the representative was just talking about.

You know, across the state, if people are insecure in the sense they don't have adequate health care, if they don't have these basic needs, they cannot progress.

It makes it much, much harder.

You put those two things together and we're gonna be on our way to a better state.

And as I always say, our best days are yet to come.

but those are the type of bigger ideas that we have to embrace.

- You get the last word Representative Clifford, what's on your mind that is very important for this interim?

- For this interim I think, for my district and for my reservation is talking about education.

I mean, there's a big push for the reorganization.

It's on the horizon, right?

And so I think we need to start having those crucial conversations.

So the districts, 'cause there's eight of them in Fremont County, you know, three on the reservation, two sovereign tribes, and so what does that look like?

I know we don't wanna think about that, but when we talk about budget and into the future and be fiscally responsible and what that is, and be fiscally responsible and what that is, and I'm a big huge supporter of education, but we need to really, we don't wanna think about it, but we need to really, we don't wanna think about it, but I think we have to.

And what would those options look for, you know, look like for us, the best options, and I think that's important.

The other thing is the governor with the MMIP task force did a state ride report on that, have some very good statistics.

And I think we need to look at those statutes and there's some statutes that we need to probably look at changing so we can help with the data collection in that.

So the whole big MMIP is still crucial to me and my constituents as well.

- Define for us what MMIP is.

- Missing Murdered Indigenous Persons.

- It's been an issue that's really come to the forefront in the last year or two, and you've had a lot to do with that.

- Yeah, yeah, it is.

And so that's a big push as well.

It's a huge push and then also tribal chairman came down and, you know, we have four members total on both business councils that are under the age of 40.

And so they're looking at renewable energies.

They want, you know, to assess our wind and our solar and our hydro.

And so there's a push for that, and we need to start having that conversation as well.

- You know, the youth component I have not thought about, but being almost a lifelong resident of Fremont County, that's absolutely true and a first.

- Oh yeah, it's changing the conversations, it's changing perspectives, and I think it's a good balance.

I really do, I really do.

- Best wishes to you both.

As always, we could talk for a long time about a lot of different things, but we appreciate your time today on Capital Outlook.

Thanks so much for joining us, and good luck with the upcoming special session, and with the rest of your interim work.

- Thanks Craig.

- Thank you.

- Onto our final segment of Capital Outlook today, our Capital Outlook profile is with Representative Chuck Gray, stay tuned.

(lively music) - And as we continue on with Capital Outlook, it's time for another Capital Outlook Profile and we're pleased to be joined by Representative Chuck Gray.

Representative Gray, you represent the constituents of House District 57 in Natrona County.

Thank you so much for joining us.

- Thanks for having me.

I always enjoy it long-form journalism and this is a great opportunity, thank you.

- You're sure welcome.

You're not the youngest member of the Wyoming legislature anymore, we were talking off camera, but you're about the youngest.

Did you see yourself serving just 10 years ago when heck you were still in college?

- No, I wanted to get involved in small business.

My family's radio business, that's originally what I was focused on but I started to get involved around 2013, 2014.

I was very concerned as I am now about our state's fiscal position where you look at the history of the general fund where you had biennial to biennial growth of 40-50% within single agencies.

And it was a period when we were flush, and I thought we needed to be saving more at a time when a lot of the newspaper media had that mantra about when do we know what's a rainy day?

That was the mantra they were repeating in 2012, 2013, 2014.

Well, my feeling was, if you're asking the question, it means we're probably not in a rainy day.

And so I got involved thinking we need to be saving more.

- Give us an idea of where you grew up Chuck?

Where'd you go to high school?

- Well, I went to high school, Loyola High School was the high school I went to, it was a Catholic school.

And then I went to college there at Wharton, at the University of Pennsylvania, studied business, and after that came in my family's radio business, wanted to get involved with that.

So was 22, started with that and then became a precinct person in the Republican party here in Natrona County in Casper, and then became more involved in County activities, County party activities in 2014, ran for the legislature, was very close, but it was a little bit short.

It was a great experience learning how to campaign, how to get out there.

I love the door-to-door interaction.

I love the interaction with my neighbors, my constituents.

It's really just something I enjoy so much about this job.

The phone calls, the talking on their door, the emails.

It's not always, I'll tell you, you go on Twitter, I mean, there's a lot of people that don't like my perspective.

There's no question about that, but I'd like engaging in that discussion and the radio background has sort of amplified that, so.

- You ran initially calling yourself an outsider.

- Mm hmm.

- Do you still felt like you're an outsider?

- Absolutely, I think I bring a different perspective in terms of the spending.

I think that our spending, frankly at the state level there's a lot of room for reduction.

- I wanna ask you a quick question about that Representative Gray.

And we're gonna ask about your service now on the Revenue Committee, which to me is almost like an oxymoron, Representative Gray, Revenue Committee, and we'll talk about that in just a second.

But I wanna dig a little bit deeper there, about a decade ago, you know, the general funds spend about a billion dollars more than it was today.

So expand upon what you have just talked about about Wyoming, still fiscal challenges with its spending.

- Well, the challenge in the way it's presented is the comparison point is usually 2013-2014, where we started to have this sort of, if you look at it as a line inflation adjusted, it's sort of this plateauing, this upward plateauing.

Yes, there's a growth there, but it's an upward plateauing as opposed to the last 20 years.

And if you look at the last 20 years, those that 2004 biennia, that 2006 biennia, and especially to some extent that 2002 biennia, we were seeing 40-50% growth within the agencies, and that's across the board.

You can look at 100 series and in workforce or you can look at 900 series which is the contractual series for these agencies where they go out and contract out with an outside source, an outside contractor to do the work of the agency.

It was across the board, it was within the agency in terms of 100 series growth and 900 series growth.

And that's never really been corrected for, so the right comparison, is all about your comparison point, are you comparing to 2014?

Are you comparing it to 2016?

I've seen that comparison too.

Are you comparing to 2000 or 2002?

If you compare inflation adjusted to 2000 or 2002, your percentage growth agency to agency is going to be a lot higher.

And the reality is, is that Wyoming still has, I mean, depending on how you calculate for the Alaska, the oil share they send out to Alaska citizens which a little different from the oil and gas, the mineral severance share, we still have in Wyoming highest per capita spend.

And yes, we have a rural population and that's great, but look at South Dakota, their per capita spend, which is a lot lower.

I mean, I'm not saying that we compare to states that have more scale, there's no question there's less scale in Wyoming, but should Wyoming really rank as the highest per capita spend?

I think that that is not consistent with our conservative values.

on the Revenue Committee.

- We're filming this just before the session resumes here in the legislature, and just yesterday, Rush Limbaugh passed away and he has been in this in a way, a mentor to you.

You've reflected that he's one of the reasons that, or an inspiration for you to become the conservative talk show host that you try to do when you're not running for office.

- Yeah, Rush's just tragic what happened.

Rush's been a huge inspiration for me.

I think about what he... - When did you first start listening to him?

- Oh, in six years old.

I mean it, he, and how good he is, and how good he has been at that craft, it's amazing.

When I started the radio show, all the difficulties that came with that as I was trying to get better and better and listening to Rush, hearing how he mastered the conservative talk radio craft, I mean he created basically, and he's an American patriot, a legend and a huge inspiration in my life.

I wouldn't be here without his inspiration.

There's no question, the conservative movement wouldn't be here either.

And it's a huge loss, huge loss.

- This session and then maybe the upcoming session, Wyoming may get a federal bailout to some extent, if the COVID Act that President Biden is pushing has aid to local and state governments.

What should Wyoming's response be to that aid?

How do you perceive it should be used?

- Well, I think any aid that Wyoming does receive needs to be distributed to the citizens.

I had an amendment in the COVID special session that would have provided property tax relief and some sales tax relief to Wyoming citizens with the COVID monies, and that was defeated.

So I think this idea of growing government with the COVID monies is wrong.

I do not think the federal government should be in the business of bailing out states.

I am opposed to that, I've signed onto some letters about that.

I think that Wyoming while we do have our fiscal challenges, it's nowhere near like these left-wing states like California and New York.

And, and... - The question I wanna ask you is this gonna hinder Wyoming's ability to find its way forward, do you think?

- Well, I think it certainly if our state becomes reliant on federal funds, I'm opposed to that.

And I see that you can go through bills all the time that pass, that I've been against.

The strings attached on these funds oftentimes aren't talked about too much in the media and also the debt at the federal level that we're running up that we're leaving our children and grandchildren.

And I wanna be part of the solution on this, one of the reasons I got involved in policy I wanna be part of the solution on the spending not just say more, more, more, more, more from the federal government.

No, we need to get a balanced budget.

We need term limits.

Another thing I've been working on at the state level and I think we need at the federal level too, we need these controls.

- So Representative Gray, you're a member of the Freedom Caucus.

What is the Freedom Caucus?

You meet, you organize a little bit, what are you hoping to do as you craft your way through this session?

- Well, this is a concept that has been there since I've started in the legislature.

It's gotten a little more media attention but conservative members, we meet, talk about how we can be effective.

And I think that's important, we wanna be effective as conservatives in the legislature.

So I think that's sort of what that is.

We've always had meetings, informal, more formal, but we've always kinda met, talked about what bills we're doing, what are our concerns and then there's informal meetings across the entire state legislature.

So it's more just meetings that have happened.

I mean, I think that some, there were some things that went out that formalized it a little more and that's fine but really it's about camaraderie around issues, talking about issues, trying to have that discussion where were some areas that say you're working on and then that leads to discussion in another area.

So it's collaborative and it's trying to bring conservative policy and reach our full potential in bringing conservative policy to the legislative process.

- You speak of comradery.

Have you missed meeting in person in this world of Zoom and COVID?

- Yes, absolutely Craig.

I mean, I have major concerns too with the way that the meetings have occurred.

So I was there, I mean, you saw it in the thing, I was there on the floor and am very excited that we're gonna be meeting in person on March 1st.

We need to get the work done for the citizens, people of Wyoming, our neighbors, the work that we do and it's very important, and I'm excited about the upcoming general session.

- Representative Gray, it is always a pleasure for me to visit with you.

Certainly one of the most conservative members of the Wyoming legislature.

I appreciate your points of view, and I appreciate your thought in what you put into what you say.

So, thank you for joining us on this Capital Outlook profile.

- Thanks Craig for having me, anyone who wants to contact me 251-1372, call, texts, and then email's chuck.gray@wyoleg.gov, that's the legislative email and you can find that online.

So thank you very much.

I really appreciate you having me on, thank you.

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