- [Narrator] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- Just ahead on Carolina Impact we'll discuss the issue of diversity, equity and inclusion on this Seeking Unity special.

The conversation starts right now.

- [Narrator] PBS Charlotte presents a special Carolina Impact, Seeking Unity.

(dramatic music) - Good evening, thank you for joining us, I'm Amy Burkett.

And I'm honored to explore the issue of diversity, equity and inclusion with an extraordinary panel of young professionals.

Several are members our PBS Charlotte Young Leaders Council.

So let's meet them now.

We begin with Jahmara Marchman.

Jahmara, I want you to tell us a little bit about yourself as well as help us know, when was the first time that you saw division in your life?

- Thank you, so I'm originally from Pittsburgh, now residing in Charlotte, North Carolina.

My first time of seeing opposition was when I was in elementary school.

I was ridiculed by another classmate for the color of my skin and she felt the need to embarrass me and say that I was dirty because I was brown skinned and because of my complexion.

So.

- And you were, teacher's pet?

- Yes.

- You were the smartest in the class, you were the one that everybody knew and you fit in, right?

You felt like you fit in until that moment?

- I did, I didn't see that there was a much of a difference between me and my classmates, but that was mainly due to the foundations within my family.

That moment I learned that not everyone was taught the principles of love and respect that hates and really just people that weren't raised correctly, that was my first introduction to that.

- Jahmara, thanks so much for sharing.

- Thank you.

- Next up, we have Jon Davies.

Jon, talk to us a little bit about your background, what you do for a living and when you saw division in your life.

- Yeah, thank you so much for having us today.

Again, my name is Jon Davies and I'm the founder of a new company called Akses spelled A-K-S-E-S and before that I was a Senior Consultant at the Center for Intentional Leadership, working with senior executives, community leaders, nonprofits, government entities, really to develop their leadership and create change in their companies.

And my new venture is gonna be focused really around my passion for this conversation, around bringing leaders with untapped potential and those with greater resources and social capital together to make change.

And so I think my background really is in...

I would call a lot of awareness building especially as a white male in terms of what is my entry point to this conversation.

And I think growing up, I had a very unique upbringing where I was around a lot of diversity.

My father's boss was African American, my mom's best friend was Syrian, I went to a school in middle school with a higher Latin X population.

So I was around diversity but when I first heard your question about division it was really when the division of my experience of the world felt very different.

And I remember being about 10 years ago at something called the Diversity Forum and it was a multi-ethnic group of people.

And I remember hearing a Black male business owner talk about the first time he decided to put his picture up on his website and it was a health foods company.

And his sales, all other factors being equal, his sales dropped 20%.

And then to hear that story simultaneously with being in a group of half White men, half Black men around, you know, our experience of the world and conversations I didn't have to hover around and say, how my children might need to handle themselves around police or a teacher or in a healthcare situation.

And just the frequency of discrimination and divisions that we have and that my experience based just on my skin tone, it's divided in how I might have greater successes or advantages.

So those two in particular Amy, really showed me where we can be divided and how we experience the world in society.

- Thanks so much for sharing Jon, we're glad you're with us today.

Next up we have Isael Mejia he's a member of our Young Leaders Council here at PBS Charlotte.

Isael Mejia I'm so glad for you to be here.

Help us to get to know you a little bit better and learn about when you saw divisive.

- Yeah, good morning.

And thank you for having me.

Yeah, I grew up here outside of Charlotte.

My name is Isael Mejia I am a representative for the Iron Workers Union in Charlotte, North Carolina and first experience, I often tend to say that I didn't really feel different growing up, you know, I had diverse group of friends also I thought and then it wasn't till I started engaging the world in different ways that I started seeing that division.

And I know we previously had the conversation about, you know, being at work when I was a teenager and somebody pointing out the fact that, you know, there's a lot of you guys in my neighborhood and I hadn't really given much thought to what that meant.

But once I started to dissect that after the person walked away, it really made sense what they were saying.

You know, you guys, you Latino or Mexicans.

So it was really impactful to have almost like a very...

I dunno, boring time growing up.

And then finally when I'm becoming more aware as a teenager as a young man engaged in the world to have somebody to tear that curtain in a way and say, "Well, you know, there's obviously a division here "and it's not because we live on the same street or whatever "but pointing out the fact that you're not of this group "or you're of another group."

It was really eye-opening.

And then from there I started dissecting other instances of my life where again you have to engage the world differently but you don't know that you're doing so just as a kid, right?

And so that really opened my eyes to the way people saw me, not necessarily how I saw the world.

- Thank you Isael.

One more panelist to meet.

I'm very excited for you to also meet Poloma Macchiavello Logan.

Poloma, also a member of our Young Leaders Council here at PBS Charlotte.

Grateful for your time.

Let us get to know you a little bit and please share when you saw divisiveness in the world.

- Amy, yes.

Thank you so much for having me, Amy.

So I work for Living Cancer Institute, Atrium Health and I have been interested in this probably my whole life.

I am a American citizen but my parents are immigrants from Peru and Spain.

My first language was Spanish.

So the first time I really felt divisiveness is first in second grade is really when I started learning English and I was falling behind in the class.

And because I have lighter skin I may not have been immediately associated with being Latino or Hispanic.

And so there was a lot of making fun of me.

I felt like teachers didn't have a whole lot of patience for me.

And so that was difficult.

But also of course, with my name being Paloma a lot of, you know, ridicule from children of, you know, Palomba or Baloney even because children are children.

But yeah, that was really the first time entering for a second grade when I felt different or divided from the group in general.

- Thanks so much for sharing.

Grateful for this wonderful group of panelists.

Let's start with some definitions that may help us paint a picture so we can all be on the same page.

We've got a graphic that states, "Diversity is being invited to the party, "but inclusion is being asked to dance."

Also equality is giving everyone a shoe but equity is giving everyone a shoe that fits.

So let's show this common illustration that's been all over social media now.

People watching a baseball game.

On the left, you see all different size people and a fence and they can't see over the fence to watch the game but on the right, you see different size boxes so everyone can see.

What this says to me is, this isn't a one size fits all solution.

So let's talk to our panelists about how you see this being done.

And I would love to just jump in and see, you know, I hadn't seen the fence picture before.

And so Isael talk to us a little bit about we often think just giving everyone a box of the same size is what we're talking about.

But we need to give people different size boxes.

How do you see this?

- I mean, it spoke very...

I think it made it very clear to me what we're talking about, right?

That idea of equality is not necessarily as you mentioned giving everybody a fair chance.

It might be presenting everybody an opportunity to participate, but without addressing maybe the shortcomings that affect each individual.

And so I think it's very appropriate, at least to me, just because it does highlight the fact that it's not a one size fits all type of change that we need to do.

And then hopefully it causes people to turn inward and say, you know, how can... 'Cause it's not necessarily about our experience alone for example, as people of color, but as maybe the way others view us.

And so to think about a tailored maybe solution that gives equal access not necessarily just equal opportunity to everybody.

To me that graphic that we shared is really... Yeah very indicative of what I'm hoping to do with hoping that we can all embrace the world's opportunities where according to where we can, maybe where we can engage, right?

I think it's true.

We can try to give the same opportunity to everybody but again, not everybody is at the same level or, you know, maybe interested in engaging those that access that way.

- Jahmara, your perspective.

What do you see with this when we're talking about the different size boxes that perhaps a lot of people haven't thought of?

- I agree working in the IT staffing agency as far as opportunities and what's presented to you there.

Sometimes there's resources that are not given to everyone and it may be generalized as the same resources, but they're not.

There are areas when you talk about schooling when we talk about funding, more areas are impacted better than others.

So it's like, you can say that you're giving everyone a fair shot but really argue with all the workforce discrimination sometimes that can comes into play or opportunities based on demographics, education nowadays, right?

Where you see top tier companies now eliminating.

Oh you know what?

We're gonna look at someone for the person that they are.

We're not gonna hold them accountable because they may not have that Bachelor's degree.

They may not have an Associate's degree.

So now seeing companies especially during a pandemic really I would say gave people an opportunity despite their educational background to prove themselves as a hard worker.

I think that's amazing.

I think that's phenomenal, but that doesn't...

It's not applicable to every situation that we're facing right now.

- Great.

Jon, what do you think?

- Yeah, I think I, you know, just looking at a policy angle I was reading, you know, a study this morning that, you know, in the racial wealth gap we have right now it's, you know, for White American it's 10 times for what a Black American would be.

And that's been done because of, you know, red lining, you know, historical like communities like Greenwood that were burned down when they were thriving, you know, commerce areas for the Black community.

And so we just... We haven't repaired that wealth and that's why when you hear policies around reparations and the economic income gap, that those are very important because of the historical policies that are symptoms of the 400 years of oppression, people aren't on a level playing field.

And so I think from policy standpoint and then I think from a day-to-day standpoint, I was part of Navon Health H drive program to really get untapped potential leaders and we were really trying to be very inclusive with who we included in the application process.

And we noticed that some of the applications where English was a second language that the answers were shorter.

And luckily we had someone from the Latin American chamber who said, just a reminder that the language or responses might be shorter which is different than someone with English as their primary language.

So in equality response to that might have been say, well everyone needs to have the same amount of, you know, verbiage.

An equitable response would say, "Okay, we're really trying to be inclusive "of having different languages and backgrounds.

"So we need to take that into account "in the selection process."

And that was great awareness for me to see that that's what it can look like day to day.

- Great.

Paloma, you've shared with me that you have set on diversity, equity and inclusion committees and organizations and not always a large turnout in people to participate.

Help us understand, you know, what have you seen as perhaps... Have you heard anything of a reason why everyone doesn't get involved?

- So I think there's a lot of fear around perpetuating divisiveness in these conversations.

But what I found is that when we sit together and actually have a conversation we gather many perspectives and the more you know the better you can do.

So I think that we've seen a lot of growth this year especially I think it's been a hard year in everyone.

We faced a lot of loss.

And around that, I think people open themselves up a little bit more to being part of these conversations.

And I've seen, yeah, the numbers grow, more diverse groups showing up to be part of the conversation.

A lot of questions being answered and a lot of self exploration and seeking answers yourself.

People have felt empowered to get answers themselves.

And that has been really great.

- Thanks, Paloma.

Jon, I wanna go to you for a second.

I wanna talk about the fact that as a white man engaged heavily in these conversations you and I had a conversation earlier and you talked about there is some level of fear among some business leaders across the air because they're fearful that they may say the wrong thing.

They may do the wrong thing even if their heart is in the right place.

And a little bit of fear about cancel culture kind of prevents people sometimes from being engaged in making things better.

Share your perspective and just give me some more firsthand about that please.

- Yeah and I think it's such a great question.

And you know right now I think we're in that environment where because of the way society has been designed not just around race but hierarchy is that the advantages or privileges that people who look like me have is that they can sort of step in and step out of the conversation to your point.

And because I think people of color have been built more for this conversation around, you know, the different slights and the different discrimination episodes that have happened.

So people who look like me have a tendency to not have the resiliency to make mistakes.

And I think in an environment where we haven't seen a lot of change happen and we haven't healed, we haven't reconciled as a country that there can be people who are, you know, fears, you know, have fear of saying the wrong thing and what I would say to those folks is that we've got to engage at a human level and are you willing to make mistakes and create change versus hold onto the status quo.

And so I really think we're just work leaders like that we're capable of more at the same time we've got to make sure that people who are uneducated with the history are taking that time themselves and aren't wearing out people of color in their organizations.

You know, I have friends who are senior executives who talk about something called the black tax, which is, you know, I'm working my job, I'm in all these conversations.

So I really need you, you know, with more advantages with a lighter skin tone to be engaged more fully which sometimes is doing the work on your own, on yourself and then also be willing to put your neck out there and that we want... We've got to build a learning community together.

And I do think cancel culture tends to take the attention off yourself and Isabel Wilkerson says this so great in Caste.

He goes, "I'm not gonna tell you about this company "where I experienced discrimination, "cause that's gonna take the focus off "your own personal work."

And I think we tend to dive into that.

It's easy to do, but keeping the attention on ourselves is always gonna create the change and people will respect that.

- Nelson Mandela said, "No one is born hating another person "because of the color of his skin or his background, "or his religion.

"People must learn to hate, "and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, "for love comes more naturally to the human heart "than its opposite."

Let's talk about that a little bit.

And I don't want to simplify the conversation and say it really is just about love, but Jahmara, can give us that perspective of how powerful can love be.

- Life-changing, right?

When it comes to humanity, when it comes to the work that people are doing, love, conquers all.

And it's very cliche, right?

We say, "Oh, love conquers all, love wins."

But no, it truly does.

When you're able to love your neighbors, you're able to love your brother and your sister despite the color of their skin, despite knowing them and they're complete strangers.

That's what this world needs more of.

We will not see a change until we learn to love one another.

And it may take a hundred years from now for us to really see the fruits of our labors.

But it's impactful.

Every one of us have a contribution.

Every one of us has a job to really take on and push full throttle to pass the baton to somebody else so that we can share in this movement of change.

Because without that this world would be lost.

- Thanks, Isael, talk to us.

You shared a story with me also about being a Mexican American.

That even within Mexican Americans, you have seen some division of people not recognizing their own biases and wanting to stay close within what is normal, what is their norm.

Help us understand that a little bit.

And so we all see that we all have a role to play.

- Right, I think that's a really great point to bring up.

We often... And to add onto what Jon mentioned earlier too.

I think it's often that text that he mentioned is often, people of color are often left to take charge of that.

You know, that's...

I feel like that's something we constantly engage in day to day even if it's in small micro situations and often the conversation turns into, well what can we do to meet you halfway, right?

And I think it's really important to highlight the fact that it's about personal work and it's not necessarily just about the answers that we have, right?

Or people of color, or if you identify a person of color because we live that every day.

And so it is important for, you know, our friends, our partners across the aisle per se to take that effort upon themselves to learn to do the work and to find out maybe what... Where we can come together.

But to return to your actual question.

Yes, you know, I think... Again, it's not just about what a non... What a White person let's say or a person who's not of color has to do.

Oftentimes we also have to address our own communities and the issues there within.

The point you're trying to... You were asking about is the anti-blackness that I discovered in Latino communities or in my own case in the Mexican American community or just Mexican community, you know, you never really addressed it.

I always thought, well, you know, I've experienced something or I've experienced somebody give me guff because of my race or color, but I never thought about the way I engage the world with other people of color.

And I moved to Washington DC, I believe it's 10 years now.

And so it was my first experience outside of being in Charlotte, outside of being in the Charlotte area.

And although I grew up in a very seemingly diverse place never really thought I had any sort of prejudice within me but then to live in a Black city, by all definitions, right?

Washington DC, historically black.

It was really interesting to see how I started engaging with the world and all my coworkers were Black.

My neighborhood was Black.

And so it was interesting for me to start feeling a certain way.

And it was very painful because I thought of myself as a...

I don't know, informed, I guess is the best way to say it.

But when I started engaging those feelings and questioning what my perspective was or what my intentions were whether it was walking on the other side of the road or maybe just feeling like another, it was my test to do.

And it wasn't...

I stepped into that community.

I moved there.

And so it wasn't up to people to guide me.

But luckily I did have a lot of coworkers and friends who, you know, we didn't have the conversation itself, but it was me slowly realizing that, "Hey, these are all founded on just not the experience "not having had this experience before."

- Thank you for sharing that with us.

Time is disappearing way too quickly my friends.

I just wanna get to Jon a Little bit.

I think it builds off of what Isael just said.

You actually have a group of folks that you've been meeting with.

I wanna say six years now, I could be off correct me if I'm wrong.

Trying to just bring about that understanding.

And what do you see as the value of us getting together with diverse in a safe environment of friends trying to learn?

- Yeah, it's in such a great question, Amy.

You know, I wanna... Bryan Stevenson said, the model for all this is four things really, he says, "You've got to get proximate "to people who are different from you, "remain uncomfortable, "change the narrative and maintain hope."

And I would say that group for me has done all of that is that, yeah, it's just about seven years.

So and one of our mutual friends, Brandon Neil is a part of that group, but I tell you what, Amy, that has been the most transformative part of my life because we spent the first year, we joked saying, sharing our ESPN 30 for 30s.

So we started with relationships and that we were humans first and that we spent time getting to know what was your life like growing up, what happened?

And so what that transitioned to is that understanding community issues and then as things happened would say, Colin Kaepernick or the racial reckoning of the past year.

We had this such a bond already where we were able to push each other.

We were able to say, "Hey, I need you in this conversation."

And I'll just say specifically, Brandon who's a Black male actually gave me this opportunity today.

He said, 'I think it's important for you "with how much you care about this conversation."

- For people who don't know him, he's a legal counsel at Navon Health?

- At Navon Health, yeah.

And so to...

He's the one who really gave me that opportunity.

So I do think relationships starting there but being willing to go through the discomfort that your view, if you are in the majority or have an experience that, that there are things underneath the surface, you may not see and I'll say I encounter that probably every day and continuing to learn with each other is really powerful.

- Learning takes a lot of time of which we don't have a lot of.

So I wanna give each of you an opportunity as we wrap things up to just sort of share what you would see as a next step perhaps an action item that might give you hope.

And I'm gonna begin with Paloma.

- I think that it's really important to realize that we all have biases and we are unconscious of them often.

So I would challenge everyone to explore your biases.

What makes you uncomfortable?

Who do you have trouble interacting with and why?

That would be my call to action.

- Thanks, Paloma, Isael.

- I mean, my suggestion would be that, you know, I think in the age of social media that we see a lot of our interactions through these networks.

It's important to know that change is not necessarily observed, right?

And so it's important I think how everybody's highlighted that we get close and get uncomfortable and engage those that discomfort within you.

I felt that's what worked for me.

And maybe it won't work for everybody, but if we remain in a corner, we really can't get anything solved.

- Thanks so much Isael.

John, your thoughts.

- Yeah, I would just say at a micro level in terms of of tools reading the book Caste is phenomenal.

Really listening to people, not to solve, but to understand.

And then I think from a local policy standpoint I am very excited about the capabilities of our youth.

I really think the youth are gonna lead us.

So how in 2022, we look at reassigning our public schools.

I call more re-humanizing.

So if we were to break up concentrations of poverty and racial sameness and begin to build multi-ethnic coalitions of students so our students can shape our parents.

To me building the agency and capacity in this community to see people's humanity first and then begin to create that change like you said, with love, but also forgiveness and honesty.

And I think, you know, working with our schools in that way would be a great step in the next couple of years.

- Jahmara, you get to have the last word my friend.

- Education, education, and education.

It's important to know why historically groups are the way that they are.

Why things, cities, the makeup, you know, as far as holding people accountable, right?

We need to hold our superiors accountable, push the envelope, engage in uncomfortable conversations and to continue to show up within your authentic self.

And that's how you're gonna build a more inclusive environment around you.

- I wanna thank each of our amazing guests.

It's been such an honor to have an opportunity to get to know you better and to call you my friend.

And I look forward to more conversations with you in the future, but no matter how inclusive we are working towards being, we can always do more and we can always do better.

I'll wrap up tonight's conversation with this quote from American poet and activist Amanda Gorman.

Being American is more than a pride we inherit, It's the past we step into and how we repair it.

Thank you so much for joining us for this critical conversation.

PBS Charlotte is committed to continuing these conversations on a quarterly basis as part of our seeking unity pledge.

We hope to see you back here again next time.

Good night my friends.

(dramatic music) - [Narrator] A production of PBS Charlotte.

(dramatic music)