- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, we celebrate Valentine's Day by honoring one family's legacy.

Grammy nominated jazz artist, Nina Freelon and her son, Pierce Freelon opened their hearts to share their journey through grief, creativity, and honoring the legacy of the late Phil Freelon.

From music to ice cream to a monument built in his name, love lives on.

Coming up next, stay with us.

- [Announcer] Quality Public Television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[gentle music] ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

Valentine's Day is often thought of as a celebration of romantic love, but today we're celebrating love in all of its forms.

Love that endures through family, music, art, and community.

Joining me are two incredible guests who embody this beautifully.

Grammy nominated jazz vocalist, Nina Freelon and her son, musician, educator, and entrepreneur, Pierce Freelon.

They are here to share their journey of love and loss, their latest creative projects, and the powerful story of Freedom Park in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Designed by the late great Phil Freelon, husband, father, and visionary.

Welcome to the show.

- Thank you.

- Thanks for having us.

- It's such an honor to have you guys here.

- Happy Valentine's Day.

- Happy Valentine's Day.

I wore pink for y'all.

- Thank you, I love it.

- And my pink shoes.

- I love it, I love it.

- Yes.

Well, first question, I don't know who out there doesn't know who the Freelon family is, but in case somebody's like, who are these people?

Who's the Freelon family?

- Oh, the Freelon family, wow.

We're a family of artists.

Phil Freelon was an architect excellence and an artist in his soul.

- Yeah.

- I am a musical artist, I'm a writer.

My, my, all my children are artists.

You know, they are all, they're all delving in the arts in different ways.

We are community minded people, family oriented people, and we love Durham, North Carolina.

- What about Durham do you love so much and how has Durham embraced your family?

- Well, Durham is, I think, really the spark that helped launch both of my parents' career.

My dad started his architecture firm, the Freelon Group in Durham in the nineties.

My mom's jazz career started in, at places like the Carolina Theater in North Carolina Central University.

And you know, obviously I've got two creative parents, and so that helped nurture my creativity.

But I can't, I can't list all the aunties and mentors that I've had around Durham, the late Doctor Bob Chuck Davis, brother Yusef Celine, you know, Beverly McKeever, the wonderful painter who used to live with us when I was in middle school.

So it was really a, you know, takes a village to raise a child and I feel nurtured not just by my, my parents and my immediate family, but by just the abundant, beautiful, black, brilliant community that Durham is.

And you know, part of, part of what I feel like now is my obligation is to be that OG for the next generation of Durham creatives.

Because I didn't do, I didn't accomplish what I was able to accomplish on my own, and nobody can so.

- It takes a village.

- So that paying it forward.

My mom's mom, queen mother Francis Pierce, used to say, lift as you climb.

You know, so we climbing, but we lifting too.

- And in that way, you know, we kind of collectively rise, which I think is Durham's story.

- Yeah.

- And is certainly the story of our family.

- That's beautiful.

And you and Phil, your late husband, created this beautiful unit, and it surpassed even his physical time on earth.

But, you know, during a time where we're celebrating love, it's Valentine's Day, not everybody can physically celebrate with their loved ones.

And when you think about that loss and the grief that you guys have experienced, how have you found your way through that, and how did you use art to use that as a healing mechanism?

- Wow, Kenya, thank you for that question.

Love is not static.

It is not a thing that only exists in one bubble.

We're familiar with the romantic bubble because that's the one that sells- - Right.

- Hearts and flowers.

- Right.

- But I would say my grief has been transformational.

It has changed who I am, fundamentally.

- [Kenya] Wow.

How so?

- Well, my heart is broken in pieces, but beautifully broken.

I'm less worried about what folk think.

- Yeah.

- I feel like I've had my head in a lion's mouth.

What you got?

You know, what you got?

- Right.

- It's opened me up, creatively.

I think when grief becomes, moves in with you, when you're in the palm of grief, there's an opportunity there.

- Yeah.

- To dance with it.

To improvise with it.

It doesn't always feel comfortable.

It doesn't always feel, okay.

You want things to be different.

You wish you didn't have to go to walk this walk as a grief sojourner.

But grief is actually calling on you to grow, to become a new thing.

- [Kenya] Yeah.

- To swallow, to metabolize and make something new from the broken pieces.

And that's what my life has been.

- Wow.

That is so beautifully said.

- Oh, thank you.

- I had tears come to my eyes.

- Oh.

- Because I feel the love here and I feel the love for your, like, husband and for your family and the legacy that you guys are leaving and live in.

Pierce, how have you navigated through that grief as a son?

- Well, I think, you know, losing my dad has really taught me the value of being present with the ones that we have here.

So, you know, for those of you getting misty eyed out there listening to my mom, wax poetic on grief, call your dad, call your mama, call your your children and tell them that you love them.

Spend precious time with them.

Pour into those relationships.

And I feel really grateful.

My dad, you know, he passed away after a struggle with a ALS.

But, in those last three years of his life, we got to tell him a bunch of times how much he meant to us.

- Right.

- And I'm really grateful for that.

I have a really close friend, a brother of mine, Josh, Rowdy Rowsey, who passed away last year.

- Yes.

- And he died so suddenly.

He was 32 years old.

And I talked to him Monday.

He was gone by Thursday.

And I can't have those same conversations with him.

And you know, my dad was in his 60s, Rowdy, was in his 30s.

You know, what I've learned through grief is that we don't have, we don't know when this thing is gonna end.

- That's right.

- Right?

And one of the things, I was just talking with my niece, Naima, about this, like you know, Rowdy lived a full and abundant life.

And so, my grief has taught me to be purposeful, to be intentional, you know what I mean?

Make that podcast- - Right.

- Write that script, put that out.

- What you waiting on?

- What you waiting on, what you waiting on?

Surround yourself with the right people who can help elevate your vision, right?

That is the gift that my dad gave us.

That is the gift that I learned from Baba Chuck Davis, from Rowdy, our ancestors teach us, taught me how to be grateful and intentional with this limited time on this planet that we have.

- Such a short time.

- Such a short time.

- I think what I'm hearing too is like you have to kind of redefine what love looks like for you, right?

And not just love with people, but we were talking earlier, love about not waiting to do the things that you're passionate about, that feed our souls, that fuel us, that keep us going.

When you said to reach out to family and friends and connect with them and call them, I thought about the folks that are disconnected from family and friends that may be going through trials with family and friends and how they may not know how to reconnect.

- It's tough.

- It's tough.

- It's tough, Kenia, it's tough.

- Yeah.

- I'm not trying to minimize the journey- - [Kenia] Yeah.

- But the journey is life.

When my husband passed, I couldn't not grieve him.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- Big love requires big grief.

And when a trauma happens where you really don't have a chance to prepare for it, that's a different kind of grief.

- Yeah.

- But running from it doesn't work.

- It doesn't, 'cause it will find you.

- It will so find you.

- [Kenia] Snatch you back.

- It will snatch you back, or it will wait patiently- - Yeah.

- Until you turn in its direction.

- [Kenia] That's right.

- And by that time, it's all crusty, you know?

- And there's a lot more unpacking to have to do.

- So it's just, it's really a part of our lives and we live in a grief-avoidant culture.

We don't wanna talk about it.

We don't wanna feel it.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- [Pierce] Yeah.

- Especially I have to say, our young men.

- Yeah.

- You know, they're especially under the pressure of- - [Kenia] Yeah.

- You know, looking strong and holding up.

And, you know, I've had to release, this whole thing's, girl, you just have to be strong.

- Yeah.

- No, I don't.

- Especially in the black community, right.

When you talk about young black men and older black men, there's this stigma around showing that love and releasing that affection.

And so- - [Pierce] Yeah.

- Yeah, this is beautiful to see the vulnerability.

- Yeah.

- Right.

And that healing.

- Yeah.

And it's interesting how, you know, life and death can really bring that vulnerability out.

I know my mom's parents had been divorced as long as I'd known them.

- [Kenia] Right.

- And didn't have the best relationship.

So when you talk about how do you mend across difference or across conflict, but when my son was born, right, their first grandchild, Justice, that brought Granny Franny and Papa Chuck together- - [Kenia] Together.

- I remember, in Durham, they were sitting there like this, hand on top of hand.

I was like, I've never- - How did this happen?

Wow.

- I've never seen that before.

You saw when you were a child.

- Yeah, yeah.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- But I had never seen that.

- [Kenia] Wow.

- And you know, both of them passed shortly after Justice was born.

But it's interesting to me how, you know, new life and death can bring healing around the fissures that seem so small.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- In comparison to the grandeur of life and death.

- Absolutely.

- And it's good for us to remember that before you're at the end of life.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- You know, to start making those- - [Kenia] Oh yeah.

- Those amends.

- Well, as mentioned before, your father, your husband was a world renowned man, right, for his architecture, for his impact in the industry and seeing as how it's Black History Month and that he is a loved member of your family, I wanted to share this opportunity that I had to visit the latest, most recent erection of one of his designs: the North Carolina Freedom Park.

So, I had the opportunity to meet with Dr. Andre Vann, who is an historian at North Carolina Central University, who shared some of the significance with this park with me.

So, take a look.

So Dr. Vann, we are here, a beautiful Raleigh morning.

Tell us where we are and the significance of this space.

- We are in North Carolina Freedom Park, which is a great opportunity began by a group in 2000 to commemorate emancipation and freedom.

And so, here, all about this place, we have a wonderful opportunity, I think, to sort of commemorate the lives of those who had a significant impact on the State of North Carolina.

Lots of African Americans, and whose voices and whose quotes are all throughout this space.

And we are thankful for their life's work of the great Phil Freelon.

- [Host] So, share with us Phil Freelon's impact on this space, and what was his contribution?

- Right, well, the overall group are those who kind of assembled, knew that they needed someone who could really help to bring to life, you know, really, the life work of those who are remembered here and commemorated here in terms of all of their quotes and their sayings here.

He was trained right here at North Carolina State University, Masters at MIT, later went to Harvard University.

And right about 1990, the Freelon Group was formed, right?

And I think the Freelon Group and his work really helped to bring about, I think, a real recognition that here was one, a noted African American architect and designer, who not only created works, but also was in the business of creating the next generation of architects and designers.

- For those that may not realize his reach, what are some of the other notable spaces that he's had a hand in?

- Well, I would tell persons, say, if you're in Durham, we have a wonderful, wonderful center and space there that looks at sort of social services, and that I think was an important space to sort of center, which is by the way, where his memorial service was held, downtown Durham, as a way to sort of bring to life and these interconnections of space along with, also, topography and land.

And North Carolina Central University decided [indistinct] a new auditorium that we added on.

We received some of the bond money, we added on to the studio, and he added on that wing to our studio.

Dr. James E. Shepherd's home was renovated initially in 2004, and Phil Freelon brought in this architect of record to stabilize that house that had, almost facing near ruin.

But there he was, helped to stabilize that structure, that house is today and is on a National Registry of Places, thanks to some of his work.

And so, there are lots of buildings all throughout the State of North Carolina and the United States of America.

- [Host] And beyond.

- And beyond.

that owes a note and debt of gratitude for his foresight and his knowledge of understanding how to sort of marry space and time and history all in the same place, all at the same time.

- We have so many beautiful inscriptions around this park.

What are some of the more notable ones that stand out to you?

- Well, there are several that will stand out.

Most notably, we have over here, a quote by my cousin, Dr. Charlotte Hawkins Brown, for whom the State of North Carolina, did in 1984, put together the first museum named for African American [Andre mumbling] in North Carolina.

She's an educator who went away, founded Paramo Institute, the oldest black preparatory school in the United States of America.

And so, she always rings a bell for me.

And then, to stand that far and to have founded North Carolina Central State University, Dr. James E. Shepherd, to see his quote here means a great deal for me, but also John Herbert Wheeler who says that the battle for freedom begins every morning.

[Dr. Van] That is a most definitive quote in Durham that really helped to typify and define the work in progress of those who want to bring about emancipation, but also some sense of freedom and equality.

- Yeah.

- And that's among many here.

- During the time where we're seeing a lot of historical spaces being questioned of their importance.

How significant is it to have erected this and resurrected this history in 2023?

- I think it is, it was pivotal.

I think the creation of this idea also, I cannot overlook the importance of North Carolina Department of Natural and Cultural Resources as well, who understood, you know, that in this college and sacred space here, that it offers an opportunity outside of further education right?

Outside of the normal classroom setting, what we call public history.

And this is public history 101 right here.

I think it offers a great opportunity to sort of offer, you know, for those, especially when I think about the most important generation I think about are those from public schools, right.

University, they're going to get that knowledge.

- [Interviewer] Yeah.

- But the public school setting I think offers a great opportunity for teachers to sort of bring students outside of the classroom, get them into these public spaces, giving them a chance to walk around and, you know, be curious.

Right, and I think that is something that is sort of talked about a lot that, you know, that classroom should extend beyond the normal four walls, but out into these public spaces.

- That's beautiful and I think especially during a time where the present day is challenged with so much when it comes to defending our race, defending our worth and our quality of who we are, that this is a great example of how history cannot be changed and it lives and breeds within us.

- Right exactly.

Exactly.

- Well, Dr. Van, thank you so much.

It's been a beautiful morning with you.

And I'm so grateful for the planners that put this together and for the knowledge that you hold and share with us.

- Thank you.

Thank you.

- I, in editing that I could feel so proud of your family.

I'm not even part of the family.

Right?

- Yes you are.

- Well, thank you.

But if I felt that way, I can only imagine what you two felt in watching that.

How did that feel?

- Well, I don't know if I can give words, but it's an example of a legacy.

What are you leaving?

Because we are only here for a short time.

What are you leaving?

And in this moment when so much is at risk of being erased, it's more important.

The African American story is the American story.

The immigrant story is the American story.

When you erase that, you erase what it means to be American.

And so not only is it an attack on people of color and immigrants, it's an attack on the very fabric of what it means to be American.

So you can't cut that off without damaging the heart of what it means.

And so I was filled with a mixture of pride and sorrow because where the world may have lost an architect, I lost a husband of 40 years, 40 years.

And at the same time, I am grateful.

I am so grateful for his life.

It's just, thank you.

- Thank you.

Thank you for sharing that.

So beautifully said.

It's like, what else do we say after that, but- - Well, what were you feeling?

- What do you think your dad would've thought about seeing that?

- Well, you know, at the center of Freedom Park is a flame.

And to me that exemplifies why that monument is important.

It is the eternal flame of Black brilliance that has ignited so much change in this country coming right out of North Carolina, from the Greensboro sit-ins to Ella Baker and SNCC, many of the people that I mentioned, ancestors of mine, James Shepherd, North Carolina Central University, A&T.

There's a rich history in the state of North Carolina of Black brilliance and resilience, from the political activism side to the creative side, Nina Simone, Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, Maceo Parker, Nnenna Freelon, - Roberta Flack.

- Roberta Flack.

- Don't forget Roberta.

- So, you know, this Black brilliance is our inheritance, and that's what the flame represents.

And you know, as our icons become ancestors, they go back into the flame that can be inspiration for all of us and a guiding light for all of us to move through the darkness.

So that's kind of, that's what came up for me.

- That is beautiful.

And to be in that space, it is open air and it's a different approach on kind of the museum feel, but it's just, its so beautiful to be able to walk freely through and to sit with the history and the impact that those words and those moments on those walls have had throughout North Carolina.

We only have a few minutes, and this conversation could go on.

And I wanna kind of shift over to some of the beautiful things that are happening in life.

We got some things on the table.

Nnenna, I'll start with you.

You are on "Shaped by Sound," which is a new PBS show that has already premiered and is out.

But you have a new album.

- [Nnenna] I have a new album.

- Share with us this album.

- It's called "Beneath the Skin."

It's my first project of all original tunes.

So I'm telling some new stories, putting some new stories in the jazz lexicon.

So I'm excited about that.

I have a book coming out on Duke University Press in the fall, - [Host] Okay, congratulations.

- reflections on Grief and reflections on loss, but there's joy in there, there are recipes in there.

- Okay.

[Nnenna chuckles] - And I'm, you know, I have a podcast.

We are, Pierce and I on the board of NorthStar Church of the Arts in Durham, where we mix it up with music and provide a space for free expression and collaboration.

So life is really good.

- That's great.

- Life is really good.

- Yeah.

And even through the pain, life does continue to go on and it's what you make of it, - It does.

- right?

- It's true.

- It's really true.

- Yeah, and Pierce, you've gone into a new venture.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, tell us about it.

- Yeah, this is Coco Fro.

It is a freeze-dried ice cream.

It is vegan and dairy-free.

If you've ever had astronaut ice cream or space ice cream at the science museum like I did as a kid at the Museum of Life and Science, it's similar, but ours is dairy-free and pulling from the recipes of our ancestors.

So this is one of my favorites.

It's the sweet potato pie flavor.

The recipe, a la Mama.

[Host and Pierce laugh] You know, it's really delicious and yummy treat.

And like mom said, we've been talking a lot today about love and about grief, and it's important for us to really sit firmly in our joy and in our creativity - So true.

- and in our abundance.

And to me, this ice cream venture has been so much fun, so inspiring, a collaboration with my wife, Katye, and our kids are always at the house just gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble.

Eating it up.

'Cause it's tasty - And you know it's healthy.

It's healthy, it's tasty, it's delicious.

Yeah.

- It's good for you.

You could pick it up at the Museum of Life and Science, or from our website, cocoafro.com.

And yeah, I'm excited for y'all to try it.

- I love it.

Yeah, and it's Black History Month, so support a Black entrepreneur.

- Yeah.

I'm like, who doesn't like ice cream?

- Who doesn't like ice cream?

- Get some ice cream in your life.

[all laughing] - Well, for the month of February, we've been at the end of the show sharing Black History Month events.

So we've come to that time now where we're gonna share some events that are coming up in the next week or so.

And so first one coming up is gonna be the Freedom Park Roots Sowing Seeds.

They're doing tours.

These are 45 minute guided tours, and they are happening every Saturday in February.

But make sure to visit the site for specific times, so don't just show up.

But that is downtown Raleigh off of Wilmington Street.

And then we have Black History Month Game Night over at Roseville High School.

This is happening Friday, February 21st.

Night of games, Black History trivia, and a lot more.

And this is with the Roseville High School National Achievers.

And then if you've never seen, or excuse me, read "The Sum of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone" there's gonna be a community reading and discussion happening at the Bonnie B Davis Center in Hillsborough, North Carolina from 6:00 to 7:30 on Thursday, February 27th, and then the Annihilation of Fish.

This is a screening for Black History Month happening over at the Independent Picture House in Charlotte off of Raleigh Street.

So great events for folks to participate in.

And I just wanna say thank you so much.

I'm humbled to have you here and for you to share your story with us and your energy and your love.

And happy Valentine's Day.

- Thank you.

Happy Valentine's Day.

- Happy Valentine's Day.

- Of course.

Thank you.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag Black Issues Forum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/Black Issues Forum, and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

[light upbeat music] ♪ - [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.