♪ (Upbeat) ♪ >> Jim: Hello and welcome to another edition of Canada Files .

I'm Jim Deeks.

Our guest on this episode is Cassie Campbell-Pascall.

A native of Brampton, Ontario just northwest of Toronto, who grew up to become one of Canada's most-renowned women hockey players.

A player, both respected and feared by the archrival US women's hockey teams of the 1990s and 2000s.

And a multiple gold medal winner in both Olympic and international competition.

She's a member of the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame and a recipient of Canada's highest civilian honour, the Order of Canada .

Cassie is now a national hockey broadcaster, a motivational speaker, a prolific charity volunteer, and a very busy mom.

>> Cassie, women and girls have been playing pick-up and organized hockey probably for 150 years or so.

But in my recollection the women's game really only started to catch the public's attention roughly about 25 years ago, in the mid 90s'.

About the time you were starting your international hockey career.

What put women's hockey on the map at that point, would you say?

and why did it take so long?

>> Cassie: I think it was a risky move back in the 1990s that gave it this public persona if you will.

That was the first world championship, and sanctioned world championship.

Bob Nicholson and Murray Costello, who were the leaders at Hockey Canada, decided to put the women's team in pink.

Some people would think it was sexist but I think it was more of a marketing ploy.

And I think it worked.

You get to play for Team Canada.

Those women were so proud to wear the pink, as long as it said Canada they were fine.

I think people do remember the pink jerseys and the white pants.

That world championship, I think, put us on the map and said, "Okay, let's go!"

Then that new generation came in... like myself a few years later.

Then, of course, the first Olympics in '98.

Those were significant milestones.

>> But that first world championship -- putting the women in pink was kind of a cynical move.

It was sort of a 'isn't this cute!'

I think the women in that world championship and then subsequent ones when you got in by '94 certainly took any kind of a 'isn't this cute' aspect out of it because people realized you ladies could play.

>> Ironically, there was body-checking in that first world championship.

I remember watching Angela James and Susie Yuen, who was the smallest player on the team.

And they dominated .

They just dominated.

For me, that was an age... I was 16 or 17 years old where I needed to see female role models.

Those were the people.

I remember meeting them at the Brampton Canadettes women's hockey tournament in April.

It was a huge tournament when I was growing up.

I honestly believe if I had not met those women and then not been able to go to the Canada Winter Games , and not been able to know that the first Olympics was coming, I'm not so sure what would have happened to me at 16 or 17 years old.

>> You mention that Angela James and a couple of others were early role models for you.

When you were 14 or 15, did you have role models in women's hockey that you could look up to, at that point?

>> No.

I didn't know who else played, other than my team-mates.

and the girls we played against.

I didn't realize there was so many women playing across the country.

I didn't even make it out of Ontario for the final cuts in '90 or '92 Worlds.

It wasn't until '94.

I remember showing up at those camps being like, "Who are these people and we have so many good players!"

So no, you didn't get a chance to see anyone like that which was unfortunate.

>> Let's go back a few years prior to that when you first started to play hockey.

Like most girls in Canada you played with boys and played in leagues against boys.

There was body-checking.

There wasn't body-checking allowed with girls but there was certainly in the boys' leagues.

Did the boys make a point by treating you like a boy?

Maybe tripping you and slashing you and slamming you into the boards?

>> My parents will tell me stories like that.

I'll be honest with you.

I don't remember that.

I just remember going on the ice and playing and loving the game.

And feeling like I belonged there.

Feeling like, just because I was a girl didn't mean I shouldn't be playing hockey.

Having said that my very first year, most of the boys didn't know I was a girl until the swimming party at the end of the year.

I showed up in a different bathing suit.

I had a short haircut.

I showed up half dressed all the time.

As a kid, you don't pay attention to those things.

As I got older and played high school hockey-- --grade school hockey, definitely, boys took liberties.

I was of the attitude, 'bring it on.'

That's what being a hockey player is all about.

It prepared me for what I was going to face in the future.

>> You also played a lot of other sports.

I know you were a particularly good basketball player.

At what age and level of hockey, did you come to the conclusion, "I might like to play this game... really quite seriously?"

And when did you attract the interest of the Canadian national team?

>> I think it was '91 where the first-ever Canada Games for women's ice hockey happened.

That was in Prince Edward Island.

I was the captain of Team Ontario.

Prior to that, I had not made it out of Ontario for the 1990World Championship team when I was a 16 year-old.

Subsequently, a year later I wouldn't make it out of there again.

I think right around that time, that's where I knew... we were starting to hear rumblings of the Olympics .

And I thought, "Okay, that's where I want to go."

Then I continued to play high-level soccer right up until the year after my first Olympics .

I actually broke my hand playing soccer and had to miss a Team Canada camp.

That's when I was like, "Okay, I'd better concentrate on one sport."

I would say it was around 1999, after my first Olympics , that hockey became the only sport that I played.

>> Let's go back to '94.

That's when you first made the team, the Canadian women's team.

And that team won that year's International Ice Hockey FederationWorld Championship, beating the United States.

I guess the rivalry may have started a few years earlier.

But certainly by then, the rivalry with the US had really started to take shape.

In fact, your Canadian teams won eight international world championships over the subsequent 8 or 10 years... because there were Olympics.

You also competed in the Olympics themselves.

In fact, in the '98 Olympics in Nagano, you'd beaten the Americans all these years, you lost to the Americans.

I want to ask you what happened in that game, but was that the most devastating loss of your career?

>> Definitely.

I still think about it.

I still dream about it.

Even you just bringing it up, you can tell it's still in there.

I think because, for me, that was the only chance for those '1990' women to win a gold medal at the Olympics .

Because it was going to change and they were older.

>> And this was the first year they'd have been in the Olympics.

>> And a lot of them hung on, you know.

So you live with that feeling that you've let that group down.

And that doesn't go away.

>> Let's talk about the rivalry.

How deep did that distaste for each other go?

Was it just on the ice?

Or was it also out of the arena as well?

>> Oh no.

We didn't like each other at all.

And we didn't know each other.

We had no idea who each other really were.

Because we didn't play together.

We didn't play against each other during the regular season.

So you had no desire to like them either.

It was such a huge rivalry.

It was so physical.

If you wanted a gold medal, you knew that was the team you had to go through.

But I look back now and I say to myself, "How could we not have had more respect for one another?"

Because we were literally wearing the same shoes-- trying to grow the game.

Just doing it in different countries.

There was... it was a hatred .

And I hate to use that word.

But it really was a hatred.

It really was a lack of respect.

You didn't care to know them.

You were willing to do what it took to beat them.

>> Does that linger today?

Or are you now friends off the ice with some of the players you faced?

>> I'm friends with some of them.

Some of them have gotten into broadcasting.

So we run into each other at the rinks.

Cammi Granato is a great friend and someone whom I admire.

And yet, her and I would have never really spoken to each other back in the day.

I do have a genuine respect for all of them and what they've done.

and what they've done for the game in the United States.

It's still bitter though, for them to go into the US Olympic Hall of Fame -- the '98 Olympic team.

You see it on Twitter and you're like, "Okay well, congratulations you guys."

You're still bitter about the loss and the emotions that come with that loss.

The respect and admiration for what they've done for the game and the friendships that developed.

They are so important and so valuable to me!

>> How important was it to you -- How emotional was it for you and your team-mates to wear that Canadian flag on your jersey?

Did it make you feel, or did you feel, any different to the Americans?

Or for that matter, the Swedes or the Finns?

What was playing for Canada to you women?

>> Well, it was our game.

The expectation when you play hockey in this country is to win.

If you don't, then don't come home.

That's sort of the mentality that we face in this country.

It's ....a proud feeling.

to know everyone in this country is behind you.

Even if you don't watch hockey on a regular basis, you watch the Olympic games and you want the hockey teams to win.

So you feel that pride.

The thing with Hockey Canada is you walk into the dressing room-- and I'll never forget this in '94, the first time I saw my jersey in my stall.

The back and the number isn't facing out.

It's the Team Canada logo that you see.

That's always stuck with me, that that is the most important thing.

You look down at your jersey sometimes for motivation while you're playing in hard moments.

It's a feeling that is hard to describe unless you've had that jersey put on you.

You've walked into a dressing room where the jersey has your name on it.

You're part of something bigger than just your club team or your province.

You're playing for your country.

It's a hard feeling to describe and give it justice but by far, it is one of the best experiences of my life.

>> Before we move onto your current career, I want to ask you a bunch of quick questions about hockey.

Because you did end up with an amazing career.

You won six international gold medals.

Two Olympic gold medals as the captain of the Canadian team.

So you have a lot of experience and a lot to be very proud of.

Who was the best woman player you ever saw?

>> Oh boy!

Well, I think Angela James, growing up.

When I saw her -- I don't think there's anyone that's ever dominated the game physically like she could.

I had a lot of respect for Jayna Hefford.

Jayna is one of the most underrated players in the world.

SHe could play first, second, or third line and make it a first line.

She was such a low-maintenance superstar.

It's hard to answer this question because there's so many.

Like Cammi Granato, one of the smartest.

>> We should clarify for our American viewers who may not be aware of these names.

Jayna Hefford and Angela James were both members of your Canadian teams.

And Cammi Granato was the captain of the American team.

Great hockey player.

>> And I think the current captain now, Marie-Philip Poulin -- I honestly believe that she's the best player to have ever played.

A great leader.

She hasn't had the successes as a captain that maybe some of us have had in the past.

But I don't think that's a reflection of her leadership.

You know what these kids now can do on the ice.

There's no-one from my generation that can do what they did.

Those are the names that stick out for me.

>> Toughest opponent you ever faced?

>> Angela Ruggiero Angela Ruggiero was a US defenceman, strong and tough.

She could play offence.

She was tough defensively.

My job playing with Hayley Wickenheiser and Danielle Goyette was to get in there and make her life difficult and give them some space.

So I found her really tough to play against.

I had so much respect for her.

She had a meanness to her which I admired and I could give it back.

And she could give it to me.

But definitely the toughest player I ever played against.

>> Most exciting win of your career?

>> You know it's funny.

You're probably going to be surprised.

It has nothing to do with Canada.

It's playing at the University of Guelph and winning a university championship in 1995.

We didn't have CIS or U Sports back then.

So we could only win as far as Ontario.

I was the only national team player.

We beat the University of Toronto , who had seven or eight national team players.

We were just a really good team who got along.

We had fun and we worked hard.

That was one of my favourite wins.

>> Most exciting goal you ever scored?

>> I got two in that 1995 championship for the University of Guelph.

So those are probably the two biggest goals that I scored.

For me, the 2000 Women's Worlds in Mississauga was -- I played with Jayna Hefford.

That was pretty spectacular.

And Jennifer Botterill.

We had good offensive chemistry there.

But I was the type of player who would pass on a breakaway.

So to say that I would score big goals was probably a falsehood.

I'd probably get an assist on a big goal.

>> Canada has unfortunately has lost the last five world championships and the last Olympic games.

Would you say now that the glory days are over?

>> I don't think they're over.

I think it's almost like David and Goliath .

The US team has been so good for so long.

Even when I played, there were times when they were better than us.

In 2002, they were better than us.

We just found a way to win.

I think it's a David and Goliath thing now.

Where they simply -- they have the confidence to win.

They don't feel like they can't beat Team Canada anymore.

Which is maybe the way they felt in the past.

I think we need to start thinking of different approaches.

We can't do the things we did in the past and expect to be successful.

I like what the head of the program now, Gina Kingsbury, is doing.

She's making changes and she's collaborative.

She's bringing in new and fresh ideas.

I'm a big believer in this new group.

>> How has the women's game changed since you've retired, roughly 13 years ago?

You mentionned a little bit earlier that maybe it's a little bit faster.

Are there a whole bunch of things that you see that are different?

Either better or not better than they were?

>> I think everything you see about hockey includes women's hockey.

If there's a skills coach, he's catering not just to men's game anymore.

He's also catering to the women's game.

Ice time has changed.

The availability of ice time has changed.

I think the attitude towards the game has changed.

Where dads and moms now with daughters, they feel no worry about putting their daughter into hockey.

Whereas my generation, it was like... well, I don't know.

You know, "Girls shouldn't really be playing."

And, "It's not really a thing that girls do."

I think we're starting to see that attitude change.

I mean, I couldn't even hold the water bottles for these girls that are playing now.

They're so talented.

They're so skilled.

They're fitter at a young age than I was.

It becomes a full-time commitment much earlier than it was when I played.

Overall, I think the game is just better for it.

<< As the game has improved, you would think that would translate into a desire by the public, but also by the players, to make women's professional hockey work.

Unfortunately in the last decade we've seen two leagues -- one in Canada, the other in the United States start up but ultimately falter.

Even with the NHL which has offered as much support as they can.

The NHL, Gary Bettman, has said, "We'd love to see a women's pro league succeed."

But it hasn't.

Why do you think it hasn't taken off?

>> Well I think we're closer than we've ever been before.

I think it hasn't taken off because we, inside our own sport, aren't willing to work together for what's greater for the game.

The good of the game.

I think we had a league here in Canada that was good for a short period.

It wasn't going to be sustainable based on the not-for-profit model.

Then we have a league down south that the players really don't trust.

They were told they were going to be paid.

Then they weren't.

They don't necessarily trust some of the investors and people behind the scenes that are helping that league.

So they've chosen to boycott it.

I think from the outside looking in, it looks like a huge mess.

But I truly believe we will have a WNHL.

And I believe it's never been closer than it is now.

I know there's a lot of talks behind the scenes to hopefully make it happen.

>> But were the fans there?

I mean, one would assume that the teams couldn't pay their players because the revenues weren't coming in because the fans weren't coming.

>> It's interesting.

I watch all the PWHPA games online and they show the crowd.

And it's full.

It's jam-packed.

I mean, they're not 8,000 seat arenas.

But it's so full.

I believe that if we have the top players, and we have the right infrastructure, that we will be able to fill 2,500 to 5,000 seat buildings.

I believe that to be the truth.

I think it hasn't happened consistently with some of the leagues we've had in the past because we've over-extended our volunteers.

We haven't had enough staff.

But with the right infrastructure, we can sell out any building.

>> Would allowing body-checking help to create fan interest?

Or is that of a day-gone-by?

That we don't need to rely on the physical aspect of hockey to appeal to fans?

>> You know it's ironic asking that question.

You look at the men's game and it's definitely starting to look more like the women's game.

In the sense that there's not the crazy hits that we used to see in the past.

There's less fighting.

I don't think bringing body-checking into women's hockey helps sell the game.

I think the pureness of it -- The finesse of it.

The showcase of skill and yet strength.

Who's kidding that there's no body contact, no body checking allowed.

But there is body contact.

It is pretty physical.

I think leaving the rules the way they are would be just fine.

>> Let's move beyond the game now.

You retired in 2006.

And almost immediately started a career in hockey broadcasting-- sports broadcasting.

You were with TSN , then Sportsnet in Canada, covering mainly the NHL , but also women's hockey.

When you first started, did you face any discrimination from what was pretty much an all-male jock fraternity?

Or were people respectful of you because of the career you had in hockey and treated you like one of the guys?

>> Outside of my team, particularly at CBC , with Hockey Night in Canada -- it's the greatest sports show we've ever produced in this country.

I think people on the outside were like, "Oh.

What is she doing there?"

"She's never played in the NHL."

"She's doesn't belong."

But people inside, they were my team-mates.

They knew the struggles that were going on externally.

You know the pressures that I faced.

I was never made to feel like a woman .

I think people are going to say, "Well, you are a woman ."

And I am and I'm very proud of it.

But I was always made to feel like a hockey person.

They would listen to my ideas.

They lacked a knowledge of what I knew.

Because I was a female hockey player, they weren't sure.

They didn't know my sport.

They didn't know all those things.

But they listened to me and I think they valued my ideas.

I think that's the biggest compliment I can give my crew and my team over the years.

Honestly, I've never been made to feel like a woman.

They invite me out for dinner with everyone.

They include me in everything.

I think that's all you can ask for.

They know that I work hard.

I think it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, if you show up every day and you work hard and you put in the work ethic, and you treat people with respect, thatwill come back to you.

>> As a spectator now and as an expert, which game do you prefer -- the men's game or the women's game?

>> That's tough.

As a broadcaster, and I'm going to get in so much trouble for admitting this, I find it easier to do men's hockey because there's more going on.

And it's a little bit quicker.

With women's hockey, especially now that I've been out of it for so long, a lot of the players that I played with no longer play.

So I can't rely on them as insiders and I can't say, "Oh well, I played with her... so this is her instincts and this is how she is."

I need to know more stories.

So I find it takes a lot more to do women's hockey as far as research.

So in that sense, I find it a little more difficult to do women's hockey.

>> Well of course, you're married to the assistant general manager of the Calgary Flames , Brad Pascall.

So I suspect there was some diplomacy in that answer.

>> Yeah.

(laughs) >> You and Brad have a nine year-old daughter.

Is she going to be a future women's Olympic hockey star?

>> The good news is that she can be whatever she wants.

For me, growing up playing hockey you never knew where you were going to go.

If it was going to get you anywhere.

My dad wanted me to play tennis because he thought I'd make more money playing tennis.

And he's probably right.

But she has a choice.

Yes, she does play hockey and she seems to love it.

She loves the camaraderie and her team-mates, and everything that parents should value in minor sport.

But she can be whatever she wants.

I think there are no restrictions on young people anymore.

They can pick careers in any field they want to and it's acceptable.

I think that goes to a lot of the pioneers that came before them.

So she's got so many more choices than I had.

I just see what she's about.

And I see that she feels there's no limitations either.

That makes me pretty proud.

>> How did becoming a mother change your life?

>> Well, you're definitely more emotional!

You think things through differently.

You have a different perspective.

You know oftentimes, when you're stressed as a parent, you have work to fall back on.

And when you're stressed at work, you have parenting to fall back on, and give you some perspective.

She teaches my husband and I more than any other thing in our life could have taught us.

She just keeps things in perspective.

She asks the craziest questions.

We're lucky.

She's an inspiring little girl.

And I'm a completely biased mom.

She's got a lot of spunk to her and she keeps us grounded.

She doesn't even know what I've done as an Olympic athlete.

She thinks walking into the Flames dressing room and the Flames coaching room is normal .

That's what every kid gets to do.

But she keeps us humble and grounded.

It's very important.

>> Aside from your broadcasting and being a mom, you do a lot of community and national charity work.

You work with Ronald McDonaldHouses , Care Canada , Scotiabank.

Of all the extra-curricular things that you do, what do you find the most satisfying?

>> Well, so many things.

The Scotiabank Girls' HockeyFest , we've been doing for 14 years.

I get a chance now to meet the kids I would have taught at these free clinics around the country.

And they're still playing hockey.

I find that inspiring.

That you met a little girl at 5 or 6 years old, and 10 years later, she's still playing.

That happened to me recently in Calgary.

That's a big impact.

DoingChevrolet Safe and Fun Hockey over the years with Bobby Orr and Mike Bossy.

Same thing... You meet these little boys and girls that you taught umpteen years ago.

They're still playing and they're still love the game.

They remember that camp!

Then the Ronald McDonald House .

I'm on the board of the Alberta Houses .

You get a chance to meet these families and meet these kids and what they're going through.

I have a picture of a little girl in my office.

Her name is Madison Hurlaheigh and we lost her to cancer.

I just remember the way she treated people and her little sister, Sam, in particular.

She was getting all the accolades and the fun events and things because she was the little girl with cancer.

Can you imagine?

She always wanted to make sure that her sister was included.

And her family was included.

I had so much respect for her.

We lost her unfortunately but I have a picture of her up in my office.

So you meet these courageous families and kids.

It's about perspective.

It reminds you of how fortunate you are and how important it is to give back.

>> Cassie, that's a great place to stop.

And we've run out of time.

>> Okay.

>> Thank you so much for joining us on Canada Files .

You're an inspiration to women across the country.

Thanks for being with us.

And thank you for joining us on this edition of Canada Files .

We hope you'll join us next time.

♪ ♪