Announcer: Presentation of Dialogue on Idaho Public Television is made possible through the generous support of the Laura Moore Cunningham Foundation, committed to fulfilling the Moore and Bettis family legacy of building the great state of Idaho; by the Friends of Idaho Public Television, and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

With additional funding from the James and Barbara Cimino Foundation.

Catherine Grace Katz, Author: But at the end of the day it's really a story about relationships.

And yes, Churchill and FDR are some of the giants of history, and they become larger than life for us.

But they're also someone's dad.

Marcia Franklin, Host: Coming up, I talk with Catherine Grace Katz, the author of "The Daughters of Yalta," about her unique angle on one of the world's most important events.

That's conversations from the Sun Valley Writers' Conference, next.

Stay tuned.

[MUSIC] Hello and welcome to Dialogue.

I'm Marcia Franklin.

One of the most important meetings between world leaders in modern history was the Yalta conference in 1945.

It was there that the "big three" – United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin -- tried to hammer out what a reorganized Europe would look like.

There is an iconic photo of the trio, taken only two months before FDR's death.

But from another angle, one can see some women in the distance.

They're Sarah Churchill, the daughter of Winston Churchill, and Kathleen Harriman, the daughter of Averell Harriman.

Along with Anna Roosevelt, FDR's daughter, the three make up the subject of Catherine Grace Katz's book, "The Daughters of Yalta."

In it, Katz shows us another side of this pivotal event through their eyes, and brings to light the role that the three women played in assisting their fathers at the conference.

I spoke with Katz about the book, which is her first, at the 2021 Sun Valley Writers' Conference.

We talked about what she discovered, and the strong ties that one of the daughters had to Sun Valley itself.

Marcia Franklin, Host: Well, welcome.

Welcome to Sun Valley.

Catherine Grace Katz, Author: Thank you so much for having me.

Franklin: I know you've been here once before, and it's because it helped in your research for this book we're going to talk about, because we are sitting in the very place that has a lot to do with one of your characters.

Katz: Yes.

The Harriman family, they founded Sun Valley as part of Union Pacific railroad back when Averell Harriman was the chairman and it was such a pleasure to come out here and get to know more about him and his daughter, Kathleen, and also have a chance to speak at the Community Library.

And this is a really special place where you can really feel history all around you.

Franklin: 'Cause Kath-, 'cause his daughter is very much a part of this book.

Katz: Yes.

She is one of the three daughters who attended the Yalta conference.

She was her father's right-hand man throughout the war, both in London and in Moscow.

And of course at the Yalta conference.

And that partnership that they had together throughout the war was really built here together at Sun Valley.

Franklin: Yeah.

Tell us why, because he, he kind of had her here as his person in Sun Valley, right?

Katz: He did.

She became much more of a part of his life after her mother passed away when she was a teenager.

Her parents had divorced when she was a little girl, and after her mother died, her father really came back into her life and said to her, uh, he, that he knew he would never really be a warm and fuzzy father, but he hoped that they could become "the best and finest of friends," and really invited her and her sister to take as much part in his work as they found interesting, which was really ahead of its time for a man of that era, I think.

And Kathleen took him up on that offer.

She came out to Sun Valley during her college vacations.

She was at Bennington and she became a world-class skier here.

And she also helped him in many, uh, aspects of running the resort -- publicity, uh, tending to VIP guests like Ernest Hemingway, checking on snow conditions, doing a bit of recon on other resorts that had started to pop up in the areas.

So she was really there with him, uh, for a, a good bit of her, uh, late teens and early twenties.

And she in many ways became his assistant ambassador during their time together in Moscow while he was ambassador.

Franklin: So let's talk about, uh, the other two women, the other "Daughters of Yalta" or, um, who were in this book, um, describe them for us.

Katz: Sure.

So this project really started for me with Sarah Churchill, when I had the very good fortune to be the first person to see Sarah Churchill's archives when the family and Churchill College at Cambridge opened her papers for the first time to researchers.

And I was so excited to have this chance to be, you know, one of the people to see the last of the Churchill family documents; it's one of the last collections to open.

And if people know Sarah today, it's usually that she'd been an actress and had starred in a movie with Fred Astaire in the 1950s.

But few people knew about her wartime work.

She had been a member of the women's branch of the Royal Air Force.

She was a reconnaissance intelligence analyst, really knew a lot of the, you know, innermost details about the war, especially operations in the Mediterranean and in North Africa.

And early in the war, Winston and Clementine Churchill had decided that when he traveled abroad for conferences, someone from the family should go with him; partly as a protector and confidant, but also as a kind of an unofficial family historian.

They knew he'd want to write his wartime memoirs when it was over, as he had done after World War One.

And Sarah was the perfect person.

She really understood the way her father's mind worked.

She had that experience, uh, as an officer in the military; she was a beautiful writer.

And also I think being an actress, that training lent itself extremely well to diplomacy, especially where there's so many things that have, you know, nuances in the way you say them, or you don't say them.

And she really was a perfect partner for Winston Churchill.

She'd be with him up late into the night when the diplomatic pouch would arrive from Downing Street.

And she'd be the one who had listened to his frustrations that were growing with Roosevelt, who he felt didn't fully appreciate the Soviet threat and, uh, Soviet designs on Poland.

And it was Sarah who really helped him channel those frustrations into more productive lines of argument before going into the conference room.

Franklin: So we should probably back up and talk about Yalta itself before we delve too deeply in the three daughters that were there.

Um, lay the groundwork for people what was happening, it's towards the end of the war.

Um, this is really one of the most important meetings of the big allies that ever happened.

Katz: Yes, this meeting is, uh, arrives kind of right, uh, as the war in Europe is beginning to look like it will come to a close, sometime in the late spring or early summer of 1945.

Uh, the meeting takes place in February, 1945.

The Battle of the Bulge has just ended.

And so the time has come to discuss what that means for the end of the war in Europe.

First, that means how to deal with Germany after it's over -- should Germany be allowed to remain one country, or should it be broken up into smaller states in hopes that they can't rise up as a belligerent for a third time in half a century?

Also extremely important, especially to Churchill, is Polish sovereignty.

Britain went to war to defend Polish sovereignty at the beginning.

And Churchill feels adamant that they should end up with what, that which they went to defend in the first place.

And Stalin meanwhile has some other ideas.

He sees the weakness on his border with the Polish flatlands.

They'd been invaded, uh, in the Soviet Union and before that -- the Russian empire -- through the Plains of Poland, going all the way back to the Napoleonic era.

And Stalin now has the Red Army with boots on the ground across Eastern Europe.

And so can really back up that desire to have "friendly neighbors," as he calls it.

While Roosevelt, meanwhile, is a little bit more focused on the Pacific.

The war in the Pacific isn't as far advanced.

They don't yet know if the atomic bomb will be an option.

Iwo Jima has not yet happened.

And so he's looking at a potential ground invasion of the Japanese home islands, which could lead to the deaths of 200,000 American soldiers.

He wants to save as many lives as possible, and that means bringing the Soviets into the fight in exchange for territory.

And finally Roosevelt has his personal goal of creating the United Nations and succeeding where Wilson failed at the end of World War One with the League of Nations.

And he also sees it as a way of bringing the Soviets into the international community after the war is over and the common enemy has been defeated.

So that's where we are in the war.

Those are the main issues that are up for discussion at Yalta.

Franklin: Well, and also, it's very important to know that FDR was quite ill at Yalta.

Katz: Yes.

Franklin: I mean, even as a small, as a young child, I remember seeing these iconic pictures of them sitting there and how haggard FDR looks.

And, um, in this instance, another daughter is Anna Roosevelt and he has asked her to come along to Yalta, similar to how, um, Sarah Churchill came with Winston.

And much of her job there, it seems, is to try and keep him as healthy as possible, because although people could see that he didn't look well, they really didn't know the extent of his, his illness.

And he, he was eventually, he would die about two months after this conference.

Katz: Exactly.

Franklin: So talk about her role and how she ended up being there.

Katz: Yeah.

So Anna Roosevelt is there keeping this horrible secret that her father is dying of congestive heart failure, and only Anna and the doctor really know how serious it is.

Eleanor hasn't quite come to terms with the fact that her husband isn't well, and even FDR had never once asked the doctor what's wrong with him.

And you can understand he doesn't want a sense of his own mortality as he's trying to win the war.

But very tragically when it came to congestive heart failure at the time, there really was no cure.

And all they could do was try to mitigate the symptoms by alleviating as much stress as possible.

And when you're the president of the United States, especially during a war, that's not a very realistic proposition.

So Anna Roosevelt, who had moved into the White House with her family after her husband joined the Army in 1943, became her father's gatekeeper.

She really tried to manage his life to minimize the stress as much as possible.

And she was a, a huge part of the last year of his time as president.

And so when it came time for Yalta, even though he didn't know exactly what she was doing or why she was doing it, to alleviate that stress, he knew that he couldn't get along without her.

And for Anna, she was 38 at the time, uh, she was a mother of three, but she also still had this yearning to be that person who was indispensable to her father, which she'd always wanted since she was a little girl.

So here she finally has the opportunity, but she also knows it's probably the last time, because he's going to die quite soon.

Franklin: And Averell Harriman, uh, is also there in his position.

Um, and, uh, as we mentioned, his daughter's with him as well; what is her role at Yalta?

Katz: Kathleen is the third daughter there.

Uh, Averell Harriman is the ambassador to the Soviet Union at the time.

And Kathleen, uh, learned to speak Russian when she moved there with him in October 1943.

She spent a lot of time helping him with his work as ambassador, even going out to be the witness to the Katyn Forest massacre, which was uncovered, uh, which the Soviets had committed but they tried to pin it on the Nazis.

And, uh, so she really had seen a lot of the, uh, gruesome brutalities of the war.

And by the time she came to Yalta, she was the perfect person to serve as what we'd almost think of like as a protocol officer at the State Department today, working with the Soviet and American advance teams, being able to speak Russian, and also kind of expanding her father's own influence at the conference.

He'd drifted somewhat from FDR in his outlook on the prospect of working collaboratively with the Soviets and was much more skeptical of the Soviets, much like Churchill was.

And so by having Kathleen there, Averell Harriman could kind of expand his own platform by doing things like asking Kathleen to get up and give a toast in Russian to Stalin at his banquet on behalf of the daughters in kind of a, a soft diplomatic approach.

But one that was, really made a big impression, and people were extremely impressed with Kathleen.

Franklin: Now we should back up a little bit, you know, although you studied history and you have a Master's right in it, um, you had gone to law school, you started working in, um, finance, right?

Katz: Yes.

Franklin: And, um, it was really, um, synchronicity that this all kind of came, this story came into your lap.

Well, it's preparation meets providence.

Katz: Exactly.

Franklin: Because in your office building there was a bookstore devoted to Winston Churchill.

And since you were already interested in Churchill from your earlier studies, you were frequenting it and then got to know the Society, um, that studies Churchill, and then the family, and then these papers were opened up to you, of Sarah Churchill.

Um, what did those -- well, first of all, that's just, that's amazing, really, that has changed your life, really.

Katz: Absolutely.

I will never forget, after going to this bookstore many times, the owner of the bookstore realizing the depth of my interest in history, and Churchill had been a part of my undergrad thesis at Harvard and then graduate dissertation at Cambridge.

And he'd connected me with the Churchill Society and then ultimately the Churchill family.

And I remember after meeting them for the first time, walking home from the office late one night and talking to my mom as I went and she said, "Oh, you never know.

And these kinds of occurrences can really change the direction of your life."

And sure enough, they did.

And, you know, I think that just goes to show moms always know best so always listen to your mom.

Franklin: And so in these papers that were opened up to you, in the Sarah Churchill's papers, was, were there were letters from some of these other women, or how did you get from exploring those letters of Sarah to this broader story about the daughters at Yalta?

Katz: Yeah.

So when I went to look at Sarah's papers initially, which was the basis of this article that I was writing about the opening of her archive, I became fascinated with her wartime experience.

And despite having studied the Tehran and Yalta conferences many times in school, I'd never realized that she had been her father's aide.

And that her role as a "daughter diplomat" at Tehran had inspired the other two fathers to bring their daughters to Yalta.

And thanks to the, the Churchill family, uh, they made an introduction to Kathleen Harriman's family.

Uh, Sarah Churchill had been writing to her mother consistently throughout Yalta.

And I found all of those letters in her archives.

And Kathleen was writing to several people, uh, her sister, her former governess, Pamela Churchill -- who was Winston Churchill's daughter-in-law and also was having an affair with Averell Harriman -- so a lot of great sources there.

And, uh, through the, uh, through Kathleen Harriman's family, I also connected with Anna Roosevelt's family.

Her papers are at the FDR library, but her daughter Ellie is still alive.

And she was 18 at the time of Yalta and has wonderful memories of that time, and to Anna's son as well.

So this perfect chance to have access to brand new documents that nobody had seen before, and also interview people who knew and loved these individuals more than anyone else in the world.

And it was a really exceptional opportunity.

Franklin: So you mentioned that, um, the other two men, uh, brought their daughters because they knew that Sarah -- that Winston was bringing Sarah.

So they, they were convinced by that to, to bring their own?

Is that how that happened?

Katz: Yes.

So FDR actually writes explicitly to Churchill in January 1945 and says, "If you're thinking of bringing Sarah again to this conference, I'm thinking of bringing my daughter, Anna."

And if Anna Roosevelt was coming, then based on protocol, it would be appropriate for Kathleen Harriman to also come.

And so she had her opportunity to come and extend her work with her father.

And the three of them had a chance unlike any other three women, young women in history, to really be there, uh, on the forefront of history with their fathers.

And it's just also so fun to think about, yes, this is one of the great moments in diplomatic and geopolitical history, but at the end of the day, it's really a story about relationships.

And yes, Churchill and FDR are some of the giants of history, and they become larger than life for us, but they're also someone's dad.

And what would it be like to be in that environment with your parents and what would your relationship be like?

And that was something that was really special to explore while writing this book.

Franklin: Well, in fact, there's that famous photograph of the three leaders sitting there.

Uh, and there's another vantage point on that photograph and off in the corner, you can see what?

Katz: Yes, there's the very famous picture of the "Big Three" -- Churchill, FDR and Stalin -- with their military advisors behind them in the courtyard of Livadia Palace.

And that's the one that we always see on the cover of textbooks.

Um, but yes there is another picture of the same scene, but a very slightly different angle.

And you can see the daughters there in the background looking on.

And they'd been there all along, and sometimes it's not until new sources are revealed or events in our own time make us think about history in a different way.

And so even the well-trodden paths still have so much to offer and sometimes you just need to be in the right time and the right place to see it.

And if they had been mentioned in other histories of Yalta, it was very passing references, as almost kind of a human interest sidelight rather than paying attention to what their actual role was or asking why they were there.

And it was really exciting for me to be able to put these three exceptional people back into the historical record in a meaningful way.

I think they've been kind of described as companions to their fathers there, or kind of general supporters, but I really think of them as "daughter diplomats," where they're not there in an official capacity as someone from the State Department or the Foreign Office, but they speak with the weight of their fathers behind them.

So they're able to go and deliver subtle, nuanced messages that someone else might not be able to do because they're in a more official role, or diffuse tension between conference participants, the tension in these relationships which would then spill over into negative results in the actual negotiations themselves.

Uh, the importance of protocol is really, if you do your job well, no one notices you were there.

So it's kind of an unsung role and one that we don't often appreciate because so many people are so adept at that role, including Kathleen.

And then in the case of Anna Roosevelt, she's literally keeping her father alive.

Sometimes perhaps doing a bit too, running a bit too much interference and maybe blocking some meetings that he should have had that would have made him a bit more prepared for having negotiations with Stalin.

But if she hadn't done that, then the alternative is perhaps he might've died while he was at Yalta.

So it's really difficult.

And, uh, their roles are complex and nuanced.

And I also like to think of them in kind of a role that is similar to one that we all have in our lives.

We all have someone that we turn to in moments of self-doubt or crisis, or, you know, when we need to reason through something challenging.

And it's often that role that rarely leaves a footprint in history, but we know it when we see it in our own lives and we can't get along without that person.

For these fathers, their daughters really played that role for them at Yalta.

And so I think it's nice to be able to shine a light on that role, which is really kind of the unsung hero in each of our lives.

And maybe make us appreciate that person a little bit more.

Franklin: They also in some instances were having to deal with their fathers', um, affairs.

Katz: Yes.

Franklin: Both political affairs and personal affairs.

I mean, um, it's quite difficult, I think for, for Anna Roosevelt in particular, because she knows or comes to know about Lucy Mercer.

And, uh, you write about that.

And then the Harriman story is one that's quite entangled, where Kathleen's, one of Kathleen's friends ends up, um, having an affair with her own father.

The young ladies were knowing things that even their own mothers were not knowing.

Katz: That's true.

Yes.

Anna Roosevelt's position is really quite heartbreaking because when her father comes to her asking if it would be all right if an "old friend," as he calls Lucy Mercer, comes to visit the White House, strategically while Eleanor is not there, and he asks Anna if that would be okay, she knows immediately who he's referring to.

And she knows that he wants her to say yes, but she also is trying to balance the fact that if she says yes, she'll be betraying her mother, which is a terrible thing to do.

But she's trying so desperately to give her father any amount of peace and solace that can mitigate some of the stress and extend his life in any way possible.

And so she rationalizes to herself that this is what she's doing, that it really is more of a friendship between them at that point.

And yet it is still an emotional betrayal of Eleanor.

That's a really horrible position to put your child in.

The relationship between Anna and FDR is really complex, very challenging.

And it's the one where I felt like I was able to grow the most as a writer, by mining the scope of the emotions of that relationship and Anna's position between her parents.

And sometimes, you know, oddly, it was Lucy Mercer who gave Anna the most validation that what she was doing was so vitally helpful to her father, because FDR really never recognized Anna in the way that she deserved after all that she did for him.

Kathleen Harriman's position is a little bit different.

Her mother had died when she was a teenager and her father had remarried, and she wasn't especially close to her stepmother, Marie, who had also had affairs of her own.

And so when she arrived in London in, uh, 1941, she quickly realized this young woman, Pamela Churchill, who was the prime minister' daughter-in-law -- married to Randolph Churchill, his son -- uh, was not just her best friend, but was also having this affair with her father.

Meanwhile Pamela was having affairs with other people too, such as Edward R Murrow and, uh, Bill Paley.

And at Yalta, Averell Harriman was not the only person that Pamela had also had affairs with.

Major General Frederick Anderson, who was one of the American military representatives.

The head of the RAF, Peter Portal, was utterly besotted with Pamela.

Uh, but for Kathleen covering up for the affair by kind of her presence giving it some plausible deniability, almost guaranteed her position, especially in London during the Blitz, where even if it became more dangerous, she probably wouldn't be sent home because her father needed her there to kind of protect the, the relationship between their family and the Churchill family.

But the great thing, in an odd way, about the legacy of Pamela and all these interconnections is that so many people were writing to Pamela that I now as a historian have wonderful resources to draw on, including a 30-page handwritten letter by Peter Portal, who wanted to kind of show off to Pamela everything happening at the conference and then hand-deliver it to her when he returned home to London as an excuse to see her.

Well, the beauty of that is that letter never went through the censor.

So I now have a beautiful, you know, whole 30-page letter to mine with great detail that I might not have had otherwise.

So I suppose, thank you, Pamela.

Franklin: Now, um, you go on and you describe the later lives of these women.

And I encourage people to read the book.

This is a really riveting section and kind of, well, not kind of, it is sad.

It's quite sad what happened to, um, several of the individuals, including Sarah.

Um, but also Anna.

Um, when you were writing that, what, what new ground were you, do you feel like you unearthed?

Katz: I think it's easy for people to write off any tragedies that occur in the lives of the children of famous people as just kind of, "Oh, here were, you know, these children that couldn't measure up, you know, struggling in the limelight."

And I think that's not necessarily the case here.

Without giving too much away at the end of the book, all three daughters experienced tragedies with loved ones who were really affected by the war -- mental health, which we didn't appreciate as much then as we do now.

And so they had similar tragic experiences because of that legacy of the war, which is so much more important to think about than just writing it off as, "Oh, here's a famous person's child who struggled."

And so I think it really also is a testament to their own spirit and, um, you know, the, their willingness to meet challenges head-on, which I think was very much part of the wartime generation.

They didn't talk about, you know, what was behind some of those challenges, and they kept soldiering on.

And I also think that the shared experience that the three daughters had -- they didn't necessarily walk away from Yalta being the best of friends, 'cause they, you know, had their fathers' interests and their country's interests first and foremost on their minds.

But that shared experience they had of being just part of a very tiny handful of people and especially young women who had been in the room as history was made, it gave them solace later in life and where they did reach out to each other and comfort each other, knowing that they were going through shared challenges.

And the experience of that in the limelight as the child of a world leader is something that only they could understand.

Franklin: When I was reading it I had the sense of, if this was a different era, what these women could have been able to do.

I mean, really they were all exceptional in their own right.

And didn't have the opportunities that we do.

Katz: Exactly.

And I think for them, it wouldn't have necessarily occurred to them that they could have had perhaps political careers of their own.

You know, I, I can't speak for Sarah, but I could see if she had been born 10 years later, which would have made her a contemporary of Margaret Thatcher, perhaps she could have considered that she could have had a political career in her own right.

And temperamentally, perhaps she really was the Churchill child who was best suited to follow her father into politics and continue with the Churchill family legacy that way.

Sarah was an astute observer.

She had a real grasp of both domestic and foreign policy.

She had a beautiful letter that she wrote her father in the lead-up to the 1945 general election analyzing why people were so frustrated and why they may not be turning out in droves to vote for her, to vote for him.

And it just is a really astute piece of political writing.

And so I could see her running for office or perhaps being a political advisor, see you never know if they'd been born a bit later.

But it's uh.

Franklin: Or Kathleen an ambassador in her own right.

Katz: Exactly; be an ambassador.

She was also a journalist during the war.

And then again at Newsweek after the war was over; perhaps she would have gone on to continue writing.

Um, so yeah, it's, it's nice that we walk away from the story respecting, admiring and wishing that they had gone on to do other things.

But, uh, I also think that they were very proud of what they achieved in their own times.

Franklin: You know, as I read it; I'm not alone, I'm sure.

Um, you see the cinematic part of this.

But it's written very cinematically.

And as I understand, it has been optioned.

Katz: Yes it has.

Franklin: Um, and what, what will occur?

A movie?

Katz: I'm trying to decide whether it's better as a movie or as a mini-series.

I think there's arguments both ways, but it's really exciting to have it be optioned and to see the potential in it for storytelling in different ways.

And I think… Franklin: And the director is prominent, yes?

The producer.

Katz: Yes, and that's fantastic and just, you know, more than anything, I'm excited to share this story with as many people as possible and to tell history; whether it's on the page or on the screen, it reaches different audiences.

And that's a really thrilling prospect to be able to put the story out there so as many people can find it as possible.

Franklin: Are you going to be an attorney, or are you going to keep going as a historian, slash author?

Katz: Yeah, well I still have two more years of law school to finish.

So I've got about two years to figure out how to bring all this together.

First and foremost, I absolutely see myself as a writer and historian and want to continue doing that.

Um, that's what I love.

That's what I think about kind of daydreaming of stories all the time.

Uh, but the law is fascinating and I really want to use history as a tool, not just, you know, in a vacuum, but as a, something that we can use in the present to tackle complex problems.

And I think the law and history go very much hand-in-hand in that way.

And so I'm hoping that with those two sets of skills that I could, you know, be able to contribute something useful to the conversation about how we can think about challenges going forward, many of which have very long historical roots.

And, uh, I think that it's a really exciting and dynamic intersection to be at and how exactly that comes together, I'm not exactly sure, but, uh, hopefully in the next two years of law school, I'll have a better idea.

Franklin: Well, this must have changed your life absolutely dramatically.

Katz: Yes.

Franklin: And, uh, I fully anticipate hearing more from you and I look forward to that as well.

Thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me today and, congratulations.

Katz: Thank you so much.

It's such a pleasure to be here and I'm so excited to be able to share the story.

Franklin: I hope you've enjoyed this interview with Catherine Grace Katz, the author of "The Daughters of Yalta."

Our conversation was taped at the 2021 Sun Valley Writers' Conference.

My thanks to the organizers of that exceptional event, to our guests, and to the Dialogue team.

If you'd like to watch this interview again, or any of the nearly 70 conversations I've taped over the years at the Sun Valley Writers' Conference, check out our website.

Just go to idahoptv.org and click on "Dialogue."

For Dialogue, I'm Marcia Franklin.

Thanks for tuning in.

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