From WXXI news, this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on May 8th of last year at the Vatican, where a papal conclave chose the first American to become pope.

Bishop Robert Prevost became Pope Leo the 14th last spring, succeeding Pope Francis.

And while it hasn't been a full year of the new pope's leadership, we're getting a better picture of who he is and what he believes.

Pope Leo spent many years working in South America, and so Americans might have wondered what he would have to say about immigration issues and Ice specifically.

As it turns out, the Pope has a lot to say, and he has angered some of the top officials in the Trump administration.

In his early weeks as Pope, Leo told reporters he did not want to weigh in too much on politics, particularly when he was asked about President Trump sending 400 federal troops to the pope's native Chicago.

But as 2025 wore on and we saw Ice raids and deportation efforts, Pope Leo began to describe what he was seeing as inhumane.

Here's a clip of the Pope talking on MSNBC in late fall.

Someone who says that I'm against abortion.

But I I'm in agreement with the inhumane treatment of immigrants who are not safe.

I don't know if that's pro-life.

So they're very complex issues.

I don't know if anyone has all the truth on them, but I would ask first and foremost that there be greater respect for one another.

Well, almost immediately, the Trump administration pushed back.

White House spokeswoman Carolyn Leavitt is Catholic, and reporters asked her, do you agree with the leader of your church that Ice is acting inhumanely in American cities?

Here is what she said at the white House.

I would reject there is inhumane treatment of illegal immigrants in the United States under this administration.

There was, however, significant and humane treatment of illegal immigrants in the previous administration as they were being trafficked and raped and beaten and in many cases, killed over our United States southern border.

And then Deputy White House Chief of Staff Stephen Miller essentially said the pope is out of his lane in talking about immigration.

Miller's wife, Katie Miller, lashed out multiple times on Twitter.

The first time came after Pope Leo installed an outspoken pro migrant bishop to oversee the diocese where Mar-A-Lago is located.

At the time, Katie Miller wrote, quote, The American pope is now openly signaling his liberal priorities.

Then Pope Leo urged the Trump administration to stop deportation actions during Christmas masses.

Katie Miller responded by posting an eye image showing President Trump wearing a Grinch costume, mocking Pope Leo support for immigrants.

Stephen Miller didn't mention Pope Leo by name, but instead tweeted, quote, I watched the Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra family Christmas with my kids.

Imagine watching that and thinking America needed migrants from the third world.

End quote.

Miller was referring to the kinds of places that Pope Leo worked in for years.

With all of that in mind, we want to hear what Catholics have to say about the new pope.

And yeah, so we'll talk a lot about immigration issues that the Pope has been talking about, that bishops have been talking about pretty openly now for a number of weeks and months.

But we're also going to talk about, you know, what they hope for in this papacy, what they see so far in this leadership.

Every pope is different.

Benedict was certainly not Francis and Francis and Leo might have been close, but they are different.

And we're going to talk about that.

And let me welcome our guests this hour.

Nora Bradbury Hill is a Catholic writer, a pastoral associate at Queen of Peace and Saint Thomas More churches.

And it's been a little while.

Welcome back to the program, Nora.

It's great to be here.

And welcome for the first time to Andrew Cirillo.

And he is university chaplain and associate director for the Center for Campus Life at RIT.

Thank you for being with us.

Thank you for inviting me.

So I want to say something at the outset of this program that is really important to me.

And the ethos of what we're doing here on the show.

Catholics are going to have a range of views, although probably his approval rating among American Catholics is pretty high right now, according to recent polls.

But there are Catholics who are not fans.

I mean, the vice president, United States is probably among them.

There are others.

And we have tried to reach out to people in our greater Rochester community who, people in positions of church leadership, people who are more outspoken and conservative Catholics.

And unfortunately, I was not able to convince someone to come in.

You know, maybe with that mindset.

Just because I want to make sure all doors are open and all viewpoints are honored.

So, listeners, no matter where you are on these kind of issues, I would love to hear from you this hour.

What are you seeing with this Pope?

Are you satisfied?

Are you concerned?

Are you.

Do you feel like he's out of his lane, as Stephen Miller said or not?

I, I want to really raise up all voices and have this conversation, but I'll start with Nora.

I mean, I remember talking to you maybe five years ago, and it was like, Is Francis really the progressive that people think?

Because if church doctrine isn't changing, every time Francis talked to somebody on an airplane, the plane would land and the Vatican would be like, hey, doctrine is not changed on that.

Whatever the pope said to the reporters, you know.

And there was a push pull.

And so, you know, in Francis's legacy, you look at it and say, certainly, he seemed to be a more progressive at heart than perhaps some of his predecessors, but not a ton of doctrine changed.

And now you've got Pope Leo, and people are wondering kind of the same, same things.

So what are you seeing in this new pope?

And does he seem to me like an extension of Francis to you?

Is he a different pope entirely?

What do you say?

Well, I think one of the big differences is, It really like his personality and his demeanor.

Where Francis, he was a real, like, shoot from the hip kind of guy, and he would he would just say things I journalists love that.

And his handlers hated it and started scribbling.

How are we going to, you know, explain again, you know that the church teaching hasn't changed.

But but the, I think something that the two of them have in common is they're the both pastors at heart.

And, you know, previous popes have been academics.

You know, Benedict especially was, you know, very much a thinker.

And, you know, every word that came out of his mouth practically was very, you know, it was it was studied.

It was intentional.

Professorial.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

And and so I think that I think that both Francis and Leo, have the have the hearts of shepherds, you know, and, and, Leo's experience as a missionary in Peru and being with the people, being in solidarity with the people there.

I, I think has, influenced him in ways that will shape the church.

Because and that was something that Francis called for us.

Is, shepherds that smell like the sheep, you know, and, so I think, I think even though Leo and Francis are very different stylistically, I, I'm, I'm looking forward to, you know, what happens next with Pope Leo.

What do you sing, Eddie?

Yeah.

I, I agree with Nora, I think.

I think he can be seen as an extension of Francis in the way that, yes, he is a missionary.

It came from his theological formation, I think, back in the 80s, at CTU.

Some folks don't know, but Nora, me and the Pope all went to the same seminary.

I think this everybody.

So we got Pope Bob and Nora.

Yeah.

And and it's all good.

Catholic Theological Union theological team.

Little shout out in, you know, is is is steeped in missionary work, and spreading the gospel.

Right.

And that's the question I think we're asking what is the gospel and how are we seeing Jesus represented by the gospel in today's world?

And so I think in that right, both Francis and Leo are very much the same.

You know, they both have traveled the world.

They both are where heads of their religious orders in certain ways, of different rank.

They were both very much involved with their country's lowest moments or where they were placed as bishops.

You know, in Argentina and in Peru.

And it's just an amazing, sort of amalgamation to see that.

Leo, even in his first apostolic exhortation to Lexi today, he talked about it.

I think it was the very first few paragraphs.

He talked about extending the mission, the goals, the sort of truth that Francis was delivering straight from the gospel on reaching out to the poor, that we as the Catholic people, as the Christian church, need to have that first and foremost at our minds.

I want to read a little bit more of what both the Pope and, some of the church leadership that's been saying about Ice and deportation, raids and not just the idea of deportation, but some of the action, the violence and the disposition toward people who are, here without documentation.

So NPR reports the following.

Pope Leo said he is troubled by the violent and at times extremely disrespectful ways migrants are being treated in the United States.

And he says we have to look for ways of treating people humanely, treating people with the dignity that they have.

If people are in the United States illegally, there are ways to treat that.

There are courts, there is a system of justice.

No one has said the United States should have open borders.

I think every country has the right to determine who enters how and when.

It's a question of treating people humanely.

That's the Pope quoted by NPR.

And here is Archbishop Bernard, a Hebdo and ignore sent me some, some background and some some of the other church leadership said and it's been pretty firm about what we've seen in, especially in Minneapolis.

So here's what the Archbishop said, quote, following the deadly shooting in Minneapolis, I reiterate my plea for all people of goodwill to join me in prayer for the person who was killed, for their loved ones and for our community.

We continue to be at a time in this country when we need to lower the temperature of rhetoric, stop fear filled speculation, and start seeing all people as created in the image and likeness of God.

That is as true of our immigrant sisters and brothers as it is for our elected officials and those who are responsible for enforcing our laws.

I echo today the repeated call of the US Catholic bishops that we come together as a nation and pass meaningful immigration reform that does justice to all parties.

The longer we refuse to grapple with this issue in the political arena, the more divisive and violent it becomes.

It is only by working together, with God's help, that we will have peace in our communities, state and the world.

Nor what do you see in those statements?

There, Imam, I see consistency.

I was you don't think the Pope is out of his lane here?

I don't think the vote was out of his lane.

And I want to read you.

We're going to we're going to play a little game, Evan, if that's all right.

I figured this is my fourth or fifth time on the show, so guess which Pope said this?

Oh, boy.

When an understanding of the problem of immigration he's talking about is conditioned by prejudice and xenophobic attitudes, the church must not fail to speak up for brotherhood and to accompany it with acts testifying to the primacy of charity.

Guess which Pope?

Guess which Pope Benedict that is John Paul John Paul in 1996.

So the message has been pretty consistent, even with popes that were perceived to be more conservative.

It's it's just this it's you know, I said to me the other day, it's not woke, it's the gospel.

It's, you know, this is our this is our tradition is that, you know, from the Hebrew Scriptures, we we stand with the outsider, we look out for the foreigner, and, and, and especially when we're talking about, the inhumane treatment my, my boss, my pastor, a couple months ago, said, you know, in a homily, we don't do politics here, but we do do Christianity.

And he made the same points, you know, that that we have laws and we can enforce the laws, but we treat people with human dignity and the ways in which, human dignity is being violated now is unacceptable.

It's beyond the pale.

What do you hear?

Any.

Yeah.

I, I think that where in, you know, the message that we're hearing from the current administration, for example, and the, some of the political actors on the stage, where are we hearing about the central gospel tenet of the corporal works of mercy?

Right.

Where are we hearing about the Beatitudes?

These are central, just basic, God salt of the earth actions that you would probably teach your children to do.

No matter what background you came from, you know, are we are we feeding the hungry?

Are we visiting the imprisoned?

Those people we are.

We see that they're doing that.

We see that they're doing outside of detention centers.

And then we see that they're getting attacked for doing so.

And this is the same tradition that these administrative officials, for the most part, are coming from.

There's just such a juxtaposition and it's such pro-life hypocrisy, to the consistent ethic of life that we call in the Catholic, the seamless garment, whatever you want to call it.

From Joseph Bernardin, another person, coming out of Chicago.

It seems to be a consistent thread here.

And I will add that, in addition to the archbishop of in in Minnesota, the three, Catholic cardinals that came out with a, sort of, in solidarity with Pope Leo, the other day, from Newark, from Chicago and from Washington McElroy, super church and, Tobin was a phenomenal just display of what is happening in the world.

Why, as Christians, we are called to something different because it's literally displayed in these central tenets.

The sermon on the Mount, the sermon on the Hill clearly lay this out.

And nothing that's difficult to understand.

You know, the Jesus wasn't trying to parse words here.

This was no parable wrapped in a shroud that you couldn't understand.

This is basic, basic, central tenets and living that honestly is reiterated in most religions around the world and spiritualities.

I really appreciate, the points that our guests are making about the consistency of the response because, you know, I, I can understand the idea that, well, you know, Pope Leo served in the previous Pope Francis was from South America.

Now, Pope Leo served and worked in South America.

They're going to have a certain disposition toward immigration.

And, and that might be different.

I appreciate the point that it is not fundamentally different from previous popes who might be viewed more as more conservative, in the same way that if you listen to the rhetoric of Ronald Reagan on immigration, it does not sound like Republicans today.

That's where it's inconsistent, but that's more consistent with what you hear from a lot of other people in sort of the political mainstream.

And so let me ask both of you kind of a related question.

What does feel different is the celebration and the the celebration of of of some of the violence, and not by most Americans.

I mean, we talked last hour about how, especially since Minneapolis, but really in the last month, the approval ratings for Ice have cratered, especially among American independents.

But there are plenty of Americans who are still cheering at what they're seeing.

And they're cheering, seeing people pulled out of restaurants and children pulled off busses and people pulled off roofs.

And I was listening to a state representative from Texas who's running for Senate, James Talarico, who is not Catholic, but he is probably the single most vocal Christian I've heard in the Democratic Party, you know, maybe ever.

And he talked about how hard it is to love your enemy.

But he said, when you're commanded as a Christian not just to tolerate your enemy, but to love your enemy, he sees almost nothing of that in the immigration scene from the people who are leading it, who are often claiming the mantle of of being Christian.

And he says the teachings are clear.

Love your enemy doesn't mean that you have to all just accept one immigration policy.

As the Pope himself said, nations have to determine their borders, and nations will determine their policies.

But you can determine a policy and still show dignity and care for people instead of gleeful ness.

Almost.

And like what happened there?

How did we get there?

Is the next question I have.

Norah.

Yeah.

I, I do think that the the rise of Christian nationalism in the United States is really troublesome.

And, you know, I don't think it's alarmist at this point to say, it's, it's endangering our democracy in ways that, you know, I certainly couldn't have imagined just a few years ago.

I want to I want to back up a little bit and, and just mention that one of the things that is different about Catholicism than some of the churches where Christian nationalism has arisen is Catholicism is a global church.

So when we talk about, you know, we use an image like the body of Christ and that we're all members of the body of Christ for for Catholics and many mainline Christians, that means the whole world.

That means, brothers and sisters around the world, people who speak different languages, people who have different customs, people whose skin is a different color, and for for Christian national lists, they they can create this bubble where only the white Christians belong to the body of Christ.

And so, so they can they can push folks outside of God's love.

Can I can I just ask you, we have a couple of clips that are related to what Nora is talking about, and I really want to hear both of our guests weigh in on exactly these points.

So when Nora says Christian nationalism, I think it's important to define it.

And I actually have a clip of James Talarico talking to The New York Times about how he defines the term Christian nationalism, which, listen, religion is being used to control people and accumulate power and wealth for those at the top.

This is a tale as old as time, and it is not unique to Christianity.

So people will always see religion as a tool to make more money and, and, and be able to keep people in line.

For those unfamiliar with the term, what is Christian nationalism?

You can define a lot of different ways.

I define it as the worship of power in the name of Christ.

So that's Talarico.

Now, when Nora talks about her view, an interpretation that as Catholics, there is a world community that is valued and loved and respected.

Vice president J.D.

Vance, who is a Catholic, was asked about this recently.

The idea that we have to love everybody equally, and he said we don't, and he doesn't view it the same way.

And I want to listen to what the vice president said.

And as an American leader, but also just as an American citizen, your compassion belongs first to your fellow citizens.

It doesn't mean you hate people from outside of your own borders.

But there's this old school, and I think it's a very Christian concept, by the way, that you love your family and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country.

And then after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world.

That's, that is Vice President J.D.

Vance about a year ago, talking to Fox News.

So he disagrees with you.

Nora, the first of all, do you agree with Talarico definition of Christian nationalism, the worship of power, you know, sort of through through the the mechanism of performative Christianity?

I think that's a great description.

Okay.

So when Vice President Vance says, no, it's actually quite biblical to say it's family first.

It is your community first.

It is your country.

And then if you've got space in your cup, it's the rest of the world.

But it is not the whole world.

That is not what we are, how we see the hierarchy of our devotion, of our intention.

What do you hear?

So Jesus, gets asked in the gospels, what commandment is the most important one?

And he says, love God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole mind.

Love God with everything you've got.

And then he adds, the second most important commandment is like it love your neighbor as yourself.

And then right after that, he answers the question, who is my neighbor with the story of the Good Samaritan?

Now we hear the Good Samaritan and we think, oh, that's a good person.

Someone who stops to help you get a flat car, a flat tire, right?

Yeah.

But in the in the context of first century Palestine, the Samaritan is the one who practices a bastardized version of Jesus religion.

He's the enemy.

He lives in the wrong place.

He doesn't practice in the right way.

And it's the it's the religious do gooders.

It's the it's the religious authorities that walk by and leave the man who's been beaten and robbed in the ditch.

And it's the enemy who stops and cares for this man, this Jewish man.

And and that's how Jesus answers that question.

Who is my neighbor?

So Jesus, the, the things that Jesus has to say about family really don't do us a lot of favors as families.

You know, the church has a lot of positive things to say about the family.

But you know, when when, the, there's there's some folks that say, oh, your mother and your family is here, and, and he's like, you know, he just sort of disregards it and continues with his teaching.

And, and he also talks about dividing, you know, that, that the, the word of God is going to divide families.

So there's not a lot of support, at least in the gospel anyway.

For what JD Vance is talking about.

And I think that that's one place where you'll see a real fundamental difference between, Catholic Christianity, mainline Christianity, and the more evangelical fundamentalist Christians who who are that kind of home, hearth, family, country, and, and that, that sort of hierarchy.

But but for Jesus, it's love God with everything.

You've got to love your neighbor as yourself.

Who is my neighbor?

It's my enemy.

There's nobody who's not your neighbor is what Jesus saying, okay.

And so and if you agree with your colleague on this, then let me just say, I think to some degree, the home hearth, what's the the order that you got there, the home Harris country.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh my family country.

I think the argument would be it's not realistic to love everyone the same.

It is a great ideal to strive for.

But it's okay to acknowledge that I love my children more than your children.

And I love my children more than children in Norway.

And I love my children more than children in any other country.

And I like my neighbors on my street better than I like neighbors who are from another country that might be at war with us.

And that's just human.

And we don't have the capacity to pull off.

Love your neighbor as yourself equally, including your enemies around the world.

And I wonder what you think of that.

I think you I think you answered it, or Pope Leo answered it when you played a clip earlier.

Or you you read one of his quotes earlier.

Love.

Love really?

Christi?

Christian love.

The idea of Christianity theologically has no bounds.

It doesn't.

It traverses borders.

It doesn't play favorites.

And we are called to the mantle to that pick up that yoke.

It's not easy.

No one said Christianity was easy.

No one said it was going to be a walk in the park.

And no one said you could tailor it to your own needs necessarily.

Know we all have probably as Catholics around the world, each one of us have maybe problems with some of the teachings that are imposed upon us.

We may not agree with it, but Pope Leo also talks about primacy of conscience, and that is something that Cardinal Newman developed.

It's something that I use in my work as a chaplain.

What does it mean?

Primacy of conscience is really going back to your values.

As a, a human being, you possess the human dignity.

Dignity as you are created in the image of God, as we just heard, a few minutes ago.

The fact that you can use that God given created right to make decisions morally, sexually, theologically, spiritually, humanly in the world, to better humankind, is our prerogative.

And theologians say that you should follow your conscience.

And theologians also say that you need to be informed in your conscience, which means this is not a willy nilly.

Well, I'm going to choose this over this because I believe this.

Over this it is.

You have to be steeped in the Gospels.

You have to be steeped in the knowledge of your faith, your tradition, and the betterment of humankind.

There's no it's not an easy pick all it's not a cherry picking sort of exercise.

And so when, you know, the the vice president, for example, says these sorts of things, I, I'm, it's a, it's a, it's a learning opportunity, I think.

Right.

And it reminds me of my students.

It's a learning opportunity to provide folks like him, folks like my students who don't fully understand the gospel.

And I'm not saying I do either.

I'm living it out every day.

I struggle with it every day.

Try to teach my daughter this every day.

Right.

But it's a sort of warning.

It's an admonition to understand that this, this exercise, this human experiment, and Christianity is a divine experiment, and we all have this implicit sort of grace inside us to walk through the world.

We just have to be able to tap into it.

And that is something that's not easily done.

I got to take some phone calls here, but but briefly, how many kids do you have?

I just have one.

One child.

Yeah.

Okay.

I've got two.

Yeah.

You love my kids as much as you love your daughter.

Well, you know, I'll say I'm struggling to love your kids as much as my dog.

Jesus said you.

I mean, that's the command, right?

You're supposed to.

How about I say, isn't that what the vice president is saying?

Like, look, it's not realistic that you love your family, you love your children, you love your community, you love your country, and then you love others.

I think, again, like I like I said, I I'll reiterate, I think it is a constant struggle that we will need to prioritize our love for God, our love for God's teaching over anything that's human.

Okay, well, let me get some phone calls.

Kevin and Victor first.

Hey, Kevin.

Go ahead.

Hi, Ivan.

First of all, I just like to say that, I really appreciate much of what the Catholic Church does in terms of, mercy and reaching out to people in need.

However, talking about Christian nationalism, the Catholic Church has had more of a horrible record with being aligned with political power than any evangelical or partizan church ever has or ever.

Probably will be.

Having said that, I would just like to say that, I, I am disturbed by that some of the strongarm tactics used by ice, I think it can be done much more sensitively and was much more, discernment.

But it has to be done.

We had 20 million people come, in the Biden administration, at least.

I mean, that's just that's like the that's like 2 or 3 Central American nations, the whole population combined, just pouring into America.

Yeah.

I, I think I think the Pope is saying that every nation has got a right to determine its policy.

That's not what the Pope is talking about, right?

I mean, the Pope is talking about the violence, the glee, the rhetoric.

I don't think there's to be what most people I think that's a terrible word to use.

Like I said, I think they're using they're too aggressive.

Okay.

I think that term, how that his name I think he's talking about.

Yeah.

He should you know, he's a he's kind of a mumbler and a fast talker, which disturbs me.

And I think maybe he could sell Teslas for Elon Musk.

That a better person?

Kristi Noem to be made the ambassador to the Paris runways.

But she seems to be more concerned with, you know, how she looks in other things so we can get better people in charge.

But we need to we need to aggressively get the bad elements out of America.

I mean, just think of all the horrible murders that have taken place.

I mean, list Lake Lincoln Riley comes to mind first.

That guy should never have come in here in the first place.

He should never have been allowed to stay.

He was repeatedly allowed out of jail.

And then he just murders this beautiful young woman.

I mean, just imagine her family.

How how devastating that is.

No question.

I mean, anybody who I mean, it's a very human thing to think that way, Kevin.

Thank you.

I mean, it's a very human thing to think about someone being hurt and what that might do to the way you think.

But I don't necessarily see Pope Leo and, you know, talking about policy.

He's not talking about which build a pass.

No, he's he's talking about how we see human beings.

That's that's what I'm hearing from the pope.

Nor I did want to acknowledge, Kevin's first point that, that the Catholic Church in no way is blameless.

I mean, we we were.

Yeah, allied with, you know, colonialism in a way that is still really at the root of all the problems that we're talking about right now.

And so in that sense, I would say that the Catholic Church bears the burden of writing a lot of these wrongs.

And I think I, I, as a Catholic, feel the pressure of that that much more.

You know, I've, I've done a good deal of work with the refugee community, here in Rochester and I, I just like I wish, you know, you were talking about, loving other people's kids.

I wish that people like, you know, JD Vance and Kristi Noem could could have, you know, come down to the refugee outreach with me and met these kids and heard their stories.

I mean, the parents of those kids dug holes to hide their children in so they wouldn't be mowed down, you know, and the the horror that some of the immigrants and asylum seekers are coming from, it's a I just I just kind of feel like, where is your heart?

I don't think the vice president would be persuaded, but I don't think that he would feel hardened to to mock or to feel indifferent.

But I think he made it clear that, he would want good things for people around the world.

But that's not necessarily our problem.

And we can't make it our problem.

We can't solve every single family, every single human being's crisis.

We just don't have the capacity.

I think that's what I'm trying to steel, man.

This.

I think that's what the vice president would say.

Norah.

Yeah, yeah.

And and I think that, I think that that shirks a lot of our responsibility, as you know, the world's superpower, where there are there are things in our history as a country, that have that have created the situations that, you know, certainly not the United States alone.

But but, you know, we we haven't even gotten into, climate change and, and, you know, some of some of the problems that the First World has created, that now the Third World is suffering from.

Incidentally, this Pope and his predecessor have had a lot to say about climate change.

Yeah.

And already Leo, so if you're on the phone, I'm taking all your phone calls.

Don't hang up.

We're going to try to get everybody in here.

We'll get Andy the next crack at responding because I'm late for a break.

This is our only break.

We'll come right back and we'll take your phone calls next.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Friday on the next connections.

In our first hour, we talked to a Democrat on Thursday.

It's a Republican in studio.

On Friday, it's Josh Jensen, a member of the New York State Assembly, talking about the proposed state budget and the priorities he wants to see in Albany this year.

Then in our second hour, we're talking about the firing of Sean McDermott by the Buffalo Bills.

And we'll have a kind of a Friday news roundup with the connections, not just in the connections team.

The Sky talked to you Friday.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Carey Ola center, proud supporter of connections with Evan Dawson, believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one.

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All right, this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson and this is Robert in Fairport.

Next.

Hey, Robert go ahead.

Yeah.

Thanks for taking my call.

One of your guests mentioned that we don't do politics and got to push back against that.

If you look at the numbers, if you look at the numbers here that, Catholic Charities, the Diocese of Rochester took in direct government funding for housing, settling and so on, illegal aliens, they took in $47 million in 2023.

That's the last year of the Biden administration.

And this is only one Catholic Charities outfit in the United States.

If you look just upstate New York, you're probably looking over $100 million in one year.

Catholic Charities and the Catholic Church has become a government contractor directly involved in the settlement of illegal aliens.

Robert, thank you for the phone call.

Anybody want to jump on this one here?

Norah?

Andy.

Go ahead.

I, I can I can go first here.

I think, $47 million toward a an attitude or a behavior of humane treatment is not a waste of dollars spent for me.

If it is a subsidized amount from the government, and the government is making an investment in an organization that has had a worldwide global organization that has had centuries, if not millennia of impact and is the largest charitable organization the world has ever seen.

So I would just push back and say, one, that's not the only thing they're doing.

The a social service arm like the Catholic Charities of Rochester serves, our agricultural sectors, serves our political sectors, serves folks living on the street.

Literally what Pope Leo is telling us to do in his first exhortation, as I mentioned earlier.

Right.

So these things are central to Catholic social teaching.

They're not something that's, coming.

It's not it's not an aberration.

It's not coming from the outside.

And so, I don't think if Pope Leo did an audit of each of the charitable organizations that is under, you know, his church around the world, he would have any problem with what this particular charities organization is doing or any of the other ones in the United States.

Maybe it's time to have Catholic Charities on the program.

Just kind of talk about the breadth of their work.

I mean, maybe that's a conversation next week if we can set it up.

I will say to Robert's point, I mean, if a taxpayer dollars going in a certain direction, I think everyone should be audited.

I mean, like, I think people should be fine with having their books pretty open.

Yeah, but I don't have any information that says they're not.

So.

Yeah.

And and like any other charity, Catholic Charities is, you know, they have to follow the law and they have to be transparent and all that kind of thing.

The only thing I would add to that is, the work that I'm admitting my bias, but the, the work that I've seen Catholic Charities do both in our city, and across the country, you know, they, they do the most they can with every penny, that whether it comes from the government, whether it comes from their own fundraising, you know, the humanitarian efforts that they make on behalf of people recovering from addiction, people, I mean, these are these are refugees, the ones that that Catholic Charities works with, the their refugee resettlement program are all people who came here.

According to the law.

And that's something I really want to push back on because we throw around, illegals and illegal aliens and many, many of the people who are right now being arrested and detained by Ice are people who were trying to follow our legal processes.

And, and I will say that our government has neglected to do the right thing or almost anything, to settle the immigration question because it's convenient not to do so.

We were so close to an agreement, and, and, close to a bipartisan solution before Trump was elected the first time.

And he, because he could influence politics in that way, said, no, no, I don't want Republicans voting for this because I want to run on this issue.

And then he then he ran on it, and he used immigration to drive a wedge.

And it's it's very it's a very good tool to make people afraid.

We know that immigrants commit crimes at much lower rates than the rest of the population.

They've got to stay under the radar.

They have to be careful.

And and if they get picked up by the police, they are gone.

And so and that's not the only reason that that immigrants, have lower, lower crime rates, but, Yeah.

Let me stop there.

Okay.

Let's get back to your phone calls.

Let's get Wendy and John.

Wendy has been waiting in Rochester next.

Hey, Wendy.

Go ahead.

Hi.

I'm sorry that I'm going to go into something a little, I don't know, more complicated.

I picked up a youth history book with a provocative title tackle system and the roots of Nazi ism, religious identity, and National Socialism.

Apparently, Adolf Hitler was baptized Catholic and originally joined a group of Munich Catholic German nationalists who felt that Germans were superior to Italians and should not bend to the pronouncements of the Pope.

Some priests actually promoted this fascist moment to their flocks, movement to their flocks, as did, the.

In Munich.

The Catholic scholars and the Nazi movement adopted some of the high ceremony and absolutism of the Catholic liturgy and dogma.

And then Hitler eventually turned on all churches since they competed with his absolute power.

I'm just curious if you think we're in a similar, similar moment in this country where nationalist fear mongering parts of the American church are in rebellion against the papacy and global capitalism?

I think when you listen to AC 1468, they are actually talking politics.

I don't know how they retain their nonprofit status, their broadcasting father Cochrane's racist speeches.

And, I heard a nun say, well, you can you can vote for Democrats, but not everyone is going to have an, 55% of Catholics voted for.

Trump was clearly not a follower of Jesus's philosophy.

Is that the extent to which Catholics are indoctrinated into a desire for absolutes a problem I am a reader of.

You read that book about Catholicism and fascism.

What are your thoughts about where Catholics, I mean, you guys are liberal Catholics.

What about the rest of the church?

All right.

Thank you.

Wendy.

Nora.

Andy.

I think that the overwhelming majority, I'd say maybe not overwhelming, but definitely the majority of Catholic leadership.

You know, you mentioned a nun there, and you mentioned, specific priests, are not saying these things.

They're not driving their congregations, into political rhetoric that revolves around hate, around separatism.

God forbid any sort of, Arian or, you know, Holocaust sort of nature of, of behaviors.

I think what happens sometimes is that a specific church or a specific, community is in an area that, you know, let's say the border, and, you know, the community, it doesn't know how to grapple with maybe what the administration is doing and how the church should respond.

And so they're getting two sides, you know, they're sort of, as we talked about earlier, do they sort of, do they follow the royal fiat of the government or do they follow the royal fiat of their, their faith leader?

And they have to make a choice.

Right.

I think that, you know, we, as as Christians, as Catholics, as people of goodwill, are called to live our ethical values, our values of that espouse human dignity, over and above any sort of affiliation.

We have, any sort of language you speak, any sort of culture we come from.

The whole point is to love and see the image of God in one another, or whatever you may believe in, to see just dignity and love and care.

So I also believe firmly.

And we haven't talked about this enough on this episode.

Mercy.

We haven't said the word mercy once.

Francis was all about mercy.

Right?

So the folks here that are saying these, sometimes awful things, some of our administrative leaders who are saying these things, JD Vance, who sometimes says these things, they are part of this body of Christ that Nora mentioned as well.

They are just as much important fabric of this seamless garment.

And we have to love them.

As Talarico said, I listened to that interview as well, and I was very compelled about how he is trying to, obviously influence but espouse a new form of government that allows the Christian the best parts of Christianity, not the nationalistic idealism, but the love thy neighbor, to work across the aisle and get things done.

That sort of idealism is what we have to work toward.

So, forgiveness is a central component that I think we don't.

We haven't talked about enough.

Nora.

Yeah.

I wanted to, to go back to the the textbook that you talked about Wednesday.

Wendy.

And and, just, affirm that the Catholic Church, was not blameless in World War two, and, you know, not everybody stood on the right side of history.

And I also think that Catholicism, has in the past and currently in some places of the church, really invites and even encourages people to kind of abdicate their own conscience as as Andy was talking about earlier and, and sort of give over, their own sense of responsibility to, folks higher up in the church instead of listening to their own consciences.

And, and there is, not negligible portion of the American Catholic Church, that wants to undo the Second Vatican Council, that wants fascism, that wants to realign, the Catholic Church with, absolute governmental powers.

And that was one of the things that Francis was pushing back against.

And some of the politics of the church, got got to be really difficult, during, Francis's papacy.

And so those, you know, the sort of, cloak and dagger and, and, behind closed doors, things that, you know, a a church as old as ours, as large as ours, as powerful as ours, you know, those same things that I talked about with with Christian nationalism.

You know, there are people in the church who really enjoy the power, and it's it's, sin is always going to be there waiting for us.

And it's important to guard against it.

And, and I think that it's not a, it's not an improper critique to say that there are things about Catholicism that, kind of leave us, leave us vulnerable to some of the things you've talked about.

Well, I get a lot to try to squeeze in here.

Thank you for that call.

Wendy, this is John in Fairport has been waiting.

Hi, John.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Hi.

How are you?

Good.

So I am not Catholic.

I'm, I'm a working Christian.

You know, every day trying to work on having more faith.

And, you know, the bottom line is what, you're one guest just said the word sin.

You know, we're, you know, we all fall short or.

And that's because, you know, that happened right out of the gate.

You if you believe in the Bible.

So, you know, the best we can do is I don't think there's a person who is Christian and who is, you know, strong in their faith that doesn't want the best for every person and doesn't want to treat every person the same way that that they want to be treated.

But, you know, we all fall short many, many times.

I mean, I think the notion that human beings are call it sin, if you want to call it, fallibility.

So what it means to be human, whether you're spiritual or not, that that's us, right?

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, that's and and, the caller referenced, you know, it's right in the beginning of the Bible, we have the story of Adam and Eve.

And whether you believe that literally or whether you believe that as a way of explaining, human beings have a real strong tendency to screw up and, and, and, you know, we name that reality kind of right, right at the outset.

And, and so, you know, that's why things like mercy and forgiveness and reconciliation, all of those things are so important.

And, you know, I and I think about the ways in which, right now, families are politically divided, the ways in which, you know, I've, I've talked to folks who have, who no longer speak to their parents, because of the politics, that that, brothers and and sisters are, you know, they, they can't even be in the same room anymore because of these issues.

And I and I do think that, we we all need to examine our own hearts, and, and challenge each other around those ideas of mercy and forgiveness.

But I, I really hope, I hope for our government, for our country, that we can come to terms with some of these things because the, the, the fruit of this kind of hatred and divisiveness is suffering.

And we're seeing that.

All right.

Here's one for Andy.

Just actually I'm going to read three emails and I'll kick one over.

And Andy, Eric just wrote in to say regarding the phone call about Catholic Charities and the idea that they're supporting illegal aliens.

But the caller said Eric said they are supporting a legal process, and Eric wanted to make sure we we hear that point.

Em says a step to loving someone is getting to know them.

The more you know someone or someone else's kids to touch on Evan's example, the more you open the door to loving them.

Getting to know someone takes time.

Investment, open mindedness, and willingness to hear.

Government rarely wants to take that time, and conversely, government wants to paint others as evil enemies, criminals, etc.

so we don't feel like we could ever like, let alone love these other people.

Thank you for the show that is from him.

And finally Rick says, do your guests think it's time for another Vatican Council?

Does the long, slow effort to roll back the reforms of Vatican Two need a more formal challenge?

Andy, if there's anything that can come out of this, it's Pope.

Leo just brought the cardinals to Rome a few weeks ago.

And he talked about, you know, what are these issues that you want to talk about?

He actually asked them out of four choices.

The two, the two that they chose for this first meeting were sin fidelity.

A direct continuation of Francis infidelity means coming together from the Greek.

If we take anything at all, the most, probably most central tenet of our faith is the Trinity, right?

It's something we can't explain very well, but we're not supposed to know how to explain it.

It's a mystery.

What comes from that is that it's relationship building par excellence, right?

Everyone gets along with each other.

It's a dance of sorts, right?

In Greek, it's called the pancreatic dance, the pear crisis.

If we can just practice a semblance of this and come together through the Synod process in our governments in creating policy, for example, this is something that we will walk away, with being better stewards of humanity.

It's a great place to end it here.

You both seem pretty optimistic about this papacy.

Are you an optimist about where this papacy is taking the church?

And I don't like to use the word optimism.

I'm hopeful.

Let's use the Christian virtue.

You are hopeful, Nora.

You're hopeful.

I always say that optimism is my fatal flaw that I am.

I am just unforgivably optimistic.

So?

So.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm optimistic.

Andrew Cirillo is university chaplain, associate director for the center for Campus Life at RIT.

Please come back some time.

Thank you for happy to be here.

Yeah.

Thank you for inviting me.

Nora Bradbury.

Hail is a Catholic writer, a pastoral associate of Queen of Peace and Saint Thomas More churches.

Thank you for being here.

Always good to be here, Evan.

Thank you from all of us at connections.

Thanks for being with us on whatever platform you are finding us.

Thank you very much.

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