- So far, it's been pretty much smooth sailing on the General Assembly's 10-week voyage we like to call the 2024 short session.

But then again, that's what they said about the Minnow, what it embarked on that fateful three-hour tour.

Hi, I'm Jon Schwantes, and on this edition of "Indiana Lawmakers," we'll seek to chart the course for the remainder of the session with the General Assembly's four caucus leaders.

So welcome aboard "Indiana Lawmakers," from the State House to your house.

(dramatic music) Pop quiz, what's the most powerful position in state government?

Now, most folks, I'm guessing, would say governor, and with good reason.

Governors, among other things, possess the life and death power to grant pardons.

They appoint the state's top judges and they serve as commander-in-chief of the state's armed forces.

Now, I would submit to you, though, that unless you're an inmate seeking a last-minute reprieve, a lawyer with an all-consuming desire to be an appellate judge, or some loyal Hoosier trying to fend off an attack from, say, Kentucky, you'd probably wanna cast your lot with the leaders of the Indiana General Assembly, especially the speaker of the house and the Senate's president pro tem.

After all, governors might execute laws, but those laws are enacted by members of the General Assembly.

And to carry this civics lesson one step further, what those members do and don't get to consider is largely up to my guests.

House Speaker Todd Houston, a Fisher's Republican, Senate President Pro Tem Rodric Bray, a Martinsville Republican, House Minority Leader Phil GiaQuinta, a Fort Wayne Democrat, and Senate Minority Leader Greg Taylor, an Indianapolis Democrat.

Mr. Speaker, let's start with you.

I've seen you quoted once, 10 times, 100 times in recent days that you say the goal here is get in, get out, no harm, no foul be done.

And yet, I've spent the past couple days at the General Assembly talking to many members and I'm reminded that they are passionate about things that aren't on anybody's caucus agenda.

How do you reconcile the desire to get out fast with what appears to be a pent up on demand on the part of members of bills that no media outlet has talked about, really?

- Yeah, I think it's a short session.

So we have a limited amount of time.

I always remind our members that we literally...

The bills that we enacted last year haven't even been in effect for six months before we come back.

So there's some fine tuning that needs to be done.

We certainly will address a whole host of issues, issues serious to Hoosiers across the state, issues serious to the members of our caucuses.

But it's a short session.

The original intent of the short session was for emergency items.

And we wanna get back to having short sessions that are focused on just a few things and not over encompassing.

We have a long session every year or every two years to do the budget, and that's where we flush out so much.

And we had a tremendous long session last year, in 2023.

And so we just wanna get back to the intent of the short session.

- And again, I was talking to a lot of your members who were talking about bills, I can't stress enough, that nobody else... At one point, a half a day into this, the most popular bill that had been cited most often was about FEMA floodplain maps, as opposed to anything that media tend to talk about.

How do you deal with that, when you're trying to figure out how to put everything through that little funnel?

- Well, first of all, the speaker's right.

It's just short sessions, we have to keep that in perspective, not dealing with the budget.

But keep in mind that our members have things that are super important to them, also super important to their districts.

Those floodplain maps have significant impacts on people and the whether or not they need to pay flood insurance on their home.

And sometimes that's exorbitantly expensive, of course.

So never mistake what the speaker and I have both said about the short session.

In fact, in the Senate we've limited our bills to five per senator, which is smaller than we've done in the past, but it doesn't mean we're not gonna do some important things.

There's several important things we'll have to debate and work on this year.

- Well, Phil GiaQuinta, again, same question, that we hear caucus agendas, I guess you have the luxury of, since you're in a super minority, and you may not get bills heard anyway, you can shoot for the sky.

Is this a chance to sort of try to differentiate Democratic caucus in the House from your counterparts?

- Well, while we're limited on time, we certainly aren't limited on very important issues that are facing our constituents.

Whether the past summer or even really over the past couple years, there have been several issues that have been brought to my attention, all of our attention.

And so I think we really need to recognize those things and get to work.

And we can use the time that we're here to work on those.

We recognize that property taxes are too high.

Childcare access is difficult.

The cost to send your child to childcare is very expensive.

While we've worked on and tried to address the issue of healthcare costs, we certainly recognize that as well.

When we talk about childcare, again, this is issues that has, it's just not, we're not having...

This isn't the first session that we've talked about it, it's been in the last couple years.

Someone reminded me the other day, when it's more expensive to send your child to public university than it is into a childcare, that's a problem.

And it's affecting Hoosier families across the state.

So there's a variety of, and many issues that I think that are affecting Hoosier's pockets book and we need to get to work on those while we're here.

- When people say, "The best thing we can do for you Hoosiers is get here, do no harm, and get out the door," does that send a message that you guys are bad case of the flu, that the fewer, the less we have to put up with you, the better?

I mean, it's interesting because you're doing the people's work, you're doing...

So how do you say... How come nobody ever says, "Yeah, we're here and we're gonna be sitting here as long as we can to do as much as we can for you?"

- Well for all of us, it's a matter of perspective.

For me, it's, I'm usually on a defensive posture, so I'm always trying to make sure that we are there to give some, the other side of the issue in a lot of cases.

But I take this as an opportunity to actually coalesce with my colleagues in the Senate on the other side of the aisle and hopefully we'll have a lot of pieces of legislation that we can actually coalesce around, make life better for all Hoosiers across the state of Indiana.

And I think that that's what we can try to do in the Senate.

- All right, well we- - And John, I do, I think, to Leader GiaQuinta's points, Senator Bray and Senator Taylor's points, I mean, I think we will touch on a large number of issues.

We'll address many of the issues that Leader GiaQuinta outlined.

I mean, and then also, in our state we do a budget every two years, and the short session's also an opportunity to flush and begin to flush through issues that we will actually, deal with in the budget session of 2025.

So, this is a continuous process, whether you're in session or whether talking to the constituents or whether you're in summer study committees, to continue to seek input and to get legislation in the right spot to be able to move.

- If this were needed a literary metaphor, it's by chapters, but there's a lot of foreshadowing.

- Exactly.

- About what comes next.

We're gonna have a break here in a minute, but before we get there, let's talk education.

Can't, I mean that's...

If I had to quiz you, I'm guessing you'd all may say some kind of education reform, but education improvement is in the eye of the beholder.

It could be in teacher accountability, it could be more pay for teachers, it could be more teachers, it could be more parent involvement.

Where... Give me your 10 seconds or 30 seconds on education.

What do we need to do?

So, so the most important thing, I think, that you'll see the Senate work on this year is reading proficiency.

We all can recognize that kids, by third grade, need to be able to read.

Vitally important that they're able to read.

- And the thought is now, as many as one in five cannot.

- That's exactly right.

And that's, if you look at I Read.

And I Read, keep in mind, I Read isn't meaning you're at the top of your game in reading.

It is a base level of reading and we've got about 20% of the kids that aren't there, and if...

So we're gonna make sure that, through second grade and third grade, that we are analyzing those kids, making sure they understand, recognizing the ones that are having trouble, and getting them more remediation through second grade, through the summer of second grade, if need to be, third grade and the summer of third grade.

And so we're putting a lot of our resources, a lot of our ideas into making sure that those kids are reading by the time they finish third grade.

And because I think we all know the fate of a child who's not reading by the time they leave third grade and go to fourth grade, is unfortunately not very bright.

And there's 20% of those, that's way too big of a percentage, we need to work on that.

- Well there might be a lawmaker, not pointing fingers, somewhere that would say, "You just hold them in that third grade no matter what, and even if they're driving themselves to school and shaving on the way, they're still gonna be in in third grade," which, and that's hyperbole, but there is a sort of a punitive flavor to some of this.

So Phil GiaQuinta, how do you to balance that with the notion that these are probably kids who are not reading 'cause they're not getting what they need from first grade to second grade?

- Well, or really before that.

- Or even before that.

- And I'm glad to hear Senator Bray talk about what we can do resource wise.

Help kids in second grade or after second grade, during that summer as they enter third grade.

But let's go back even before that, when we talk about pre-K. We've danced around the edges, if you will, with a pilot program and a statewide program.

But we still really don't have a real robust pre-K program in the state, in my opinion.

We have areas, deserts, if you will, pre-K deserts where folks just, there is no access to pre-K. We have other programs out there with pre-K that's just too expensive.

Study after study will show you that more kids that get into pre-K will do so much better.

And the produced study recently that came out said just that, that they do much better on the I Read tests.

And so those are things, so let's start with getting kids- - Didn't you care recently about non-budget, no open to budget?

'Cause clearly that- - Sorry, no, hold on one second.

No, let's be serious about this and think about what can we do to make sure that kids are getting early childhood education, because it's gonna be so much better in the long run, particularly with third grade reading scores.

- And what is the answer, then.

If the budget's not open, and I don't think you guys have changed your minds about that, there might be some dollars here and there, but for the most part, how do you solve a problem like that?

- Well, I have to agree with my colleague from the House and the fact that we could have seen this coming.

I actually predicted this back in 2011, when we were doing our kind of mixing and matching the public school dollars with the traditional public schools, charter schools, and now the largest school district in the state, the voucher program.

We predicted we were gonna have some problems down the road.

And for me, it's kind of the chickens coming home to roost.

We have to understand that if a child can't... We all agree, if a child can't read in third grade, we can predict their future.

I think that's something we can all agree upon.

So if we start with that premise and we start implementing some of these public school policies that we should have done a long time ago, I've had the same bill that makes the compulsory age five years old in Indiana.

(laughs) We're putting those kids behind the eight ball if we say they only have to start school, they're only compelled to start school at seven.

- I need to make a quick point here.

- All right, real quick and then we're gonna grade your answers on the first segment and we wanna take a quick break here.

- You're talking about the issue of money and suggesting maybe we're not putting enough money into it.

Let me just run through a couple of figures here.

We added to the budget of our K through 12 education in 2019, 763 million new dollars.

in 2021, 1.1 billion new dollars on top of those 763 before that.

And then the '23 budget, basically $1.5 billion, depending on how you count it.

So the dollars that we put into public education is not the problem here.

This is just needs to be a focus, that we're making sure that these kids are getting the attention they need.

- All right, we'll take a little break, just catch our breath.

As I say, grade the answers for the first part of the quiz here today.

We talk about the stories and what matters, but another aspect of this is how things become law, essentially the process.

I think you guys could pass that test, but let's take a quick break and look at that.

Just like we learned in "Schoolhouse Rock," it can be quite a journey for a bill to reach the governor's desk.

And even then, there's no guarantee that it will actually become law.

Here's what that process looks like in the Indiana State House.

Before a bill reaches the governor's desk, it must survive three readings, or clearly defined stages in the chamber, where it's introduced and then repeat the same three-part process in the other chamber.

Lots of proposals never get out of the gate and those that do can die at any point along the way.

Bills that make it through the general assembly still aren't a done deal, as they can be vetoed by the governor.

Of course, vetoes can be overridden by a simple legislative majority, that is at least 51 votes in the House and 26 votes in the Senate.

Tune in each week as we break down the year's session by the numbers and answer your questions about the process.

- Before we leave education, what are we... What needs to be dealt with this session for it to be a success?

- Well, I think one of the great success stories of last year was House Bill 10-02, work-based learning program that recognizes that at least half the students graduate from Indiana high schools aren't going to go to a traditional two or four year public university or private university after high school.

And to make sure kids have high quality, work-based learning experiences in high school so that they're prepared for the careers.

And we've had tremendous partners in the business community and the trade unions and all across the sector saying, "We want to help these kids have work-based learning experiences that help them understand the type of careers that're available to them and the different pathways to get to those careers."

So that was a huge bill last year, a bipartisan bill.

This year, we have House Bill 10-01 that continues to build on that and continues to make sure we provide all kids with a meaningful high school education.

- Does anybody think that's not the way to go?

I know Ed Delaney, a State rep from Indianapolis in these State House interviews was very adamant, saying he thinks this is discouraging or sending a message or maybe not even a subtle message that kids shouldn't go to college, or basically forcing them out before they are mature enough to know what their decisions should be.

Anybody share that concern or?

- Well, I think that and Representative Delaney's made this concern as well, that when you look at the school counselor ratio, I think we're last in the country with the number of school counselors that we have- - Well, you don't know which cases, is what they're saying, in terms of picking a vocational, a trade versus- - Exactly, I mean, I think school counselors, or the guidance counselors provide a great service for students working through those different options, as you will, whether or not to attend college or what the other options are.

So I think that's one thing that we really do need to focus on.

And as we continue to work on 10-01 now, I'm getting numbers mixed up a little bit, but... And there's some other things too, with regards to, I think, age, trying to get into the trades, there's some discrepancy there on the age of students, things like that.

But the school counselor issue is a big one.

- Greg Taylor, before we leave education, weigh in.

- Yeah, we've got to, again, my colleagues talk about the amount of money that we put into education over the last three years, I agree, I mean, the numbers speak for themselves.

But where you put those dollars is very important.

When you increase some programs funding by 80% and other programs go up by 5%, you kind of talk... You kind of see, in numbers, where your priorities lie.

As far as this work-based learning, I agree with my colleagues, we've gotta find some options for these kids to actually have a career later on in their life and make enough money to take care of a family.

But we have to be careful that we don't guide certain students one way and other students another way.

And that's one of the things that I'm kind of apprehensive about.

So fixing the counselor to student ratio should be a priority.

And we gotta have social workers, too, because these children and their families have usually come from backgrounds where they're gonna need services as well as career counseling and other things.

- I do think the idea that you watch more...

If you talk to Hoosier families and you go talk to the parents, you talk to kids, they want options available to them, meaningful options that prepare.

And the idea that we're lowering a standard, frankly, is just wrong.

These programs are getting kids certificates and certifications in high need, high demand job areas.

And high wage jobs.

So it's not...

There's nothing about this that's discouraging kids from going to a two or a four year school.

It's saying the pathway to that associate's degree, the bachelor's degree can include, and in certain times must include, a certification or a credential to get there.

And so no one wants to lower any standard.

Matter of fact, I would frankly say we're increasing the standards, but we're recognizing that the education today is different than the education that we all experienced, and it needs to be more relevant.

It needs to be more skills focused, not content focused.

And I think post pandemic is more parents got a chance to see what their kids are were learning.

They were asking the obvious question I think a lot of us have asked, is how often did I use what I learned?

- Well, and everything we've talked about so far, certainly it's under the heading of education reform.

But again, that's a matter of definition.

It's in the eye of the beholder.

For some people, that's not the important education reform.

It's what we heard toward the end of last session.

Parents need to be more in the classroom.

You need to pay more about what kids are being taught, in terms of subjects that maybe some would say aren't appropriate for younger kids, in terms of being too sexual in nature or too provocative or...

I mean, how is that gonna come back, those kinds of issues, I guess we'd call them the culture war.

We'll lump them under that heading.

Or is this gonna be a session that actually stays on truancy, reading, writing, and arithmetic in the classic sense?

- We're gonna talk mostly about making sure the kids are proficient in reading and making sure that... Truancy obviously has become an issue because there are school buildings in our state where one out of every two kids are considered chronically truant.

So I think we've all just taken our eye off that ball a little bit.

So we need to make sure we focus on it.

We've got some legislation that we'll kinda work through and see if we can get something that makes sense to pass.

But at the very least, it's a really important conversation to have.

Those are what you'll see us spend most of our time on.

- And I'm no expert on this subject, but I'm guessing there might be a correlation between people who can't... Aren't proficient at third grade and people who might not be sitting in the classroom.

- Absolutely.

- Just a wild, crazy- - I suspect so.

- Guess.

We talked a little K through 12, before we leave the subject, let's talk post-secondary education, anti-Semitism, the campus.

The concern, thanks to the headlines that we've been seeing and reading around the world, that's an issue.

Does that warrant consideration, Phil GiaQuinta?

Is that- - Well, there's a bill that was working its way through the house, it was- - And this would basically afford more protection or make anti-Semitism basically a more clearly-defined problem on campuses and force the hand.

Do you find that... A lot of the people who are most zealous in advocacy of this or some of, I couldn't help but notice, they're some of the same people who were brought kicking and screaming to the table on hate crimes legislation, for instance, when the governor... You eventually did pass something, but not as...

Some would say watered down version.

But the governor wanted something, you gave him something.

But before that, we were one of five states that didn't have any hate crimes legislation.

How come we're here where we are now, Greg Taylor, and we weren't back then, what's going on?

- Well, let's remember that when we did some assemblance of a what a bias crimes would be, the impetus behind that was actually desecration of a synagogue in Carmel.

Listen, these isms have been around since before we were born.

We're not gonna fix them overnight and we're not gonna fix them by, in my opinion, defining one ism over another ism.

Racism has been around as much as antisemitism has been around, and I find it ironic that we're gonna be sitting here in a legislative session saying in the education area, "This is what you can't say, otherwise you are this."

Well, we could do that about a lot of things there.

We've got a lot of homophobia, we've got a lot of racism.

Where are we gonna stop?

Where are we gonna stop the ball from rolling down the hill?

And it actually gives me cause for concern.

- Oh I'm so tempted to go down that path, 'cause we could talk hours about that but I know- - (laughs) Yes.

- We are short on time and there are other issues on the table.

Quickly, let's go around, what's else on your front burner?

- We've obviously working on a whole series of issues, as Senator Bray noted, both caucuses are aligned on childcare issues.

Both caucuses are gonna continue to work on- - Even though the budget won't- - Healthcare issues.

- Might in some ways- - No, and I think- - Tweak, 'cause that's, more people are eligible.

- Absolutely, make more people eligible.

I think we've created a process, I think, and with good intent.

But we've so regulated it, John, that we just eliminated the number of providers.

I mean, we shouldn't be surprised when government overextends and creates so many barriers for people even open a childcare, that guess what?

We don't have enough seats available.

- And we only have about 50% of the total seats we need.

- That's right.

- That the state wants.

- But we're gonna deal with issues that, we'll deal with the floodplain issues, the map issues.

We'll deal with a whole series of issues like with always do.

- You're leaving the 13th check.

- We're gonna leave- - For pensioners.

- The 13th check for- - Yeah, that's seems - Pensioners.

- To be picking up speed.

And that's, we could... That was basically just helping out senior, or I suppose they're all seniors.

I don't know by definition, but they're state employees who retired that weren't getting that additional income.

How about you, Rod Bray?

What have we not talked about that we should?

- Well I just, again, focus on, you mentioned already, but daycare is a really important one, you'll see us focus on that, it's gonna be an important priority bill for us.

And a couple of other things with regard to some healthcare costs.

We've worked on that already.

And in large part, as the speaker referenced earlier, we're gonna let some of that that we've already done bake and make sure it's been effective in doing the job we wanted it to do.

But we'll come back into that space just a little bit this legislative session, as well.

- I did see there was a shot across the bow from the chairman of tax and fiscal policy the first week of the session, talking about the reserves maintained by some of our non-profit hospitals in Indiana.

And it was pretty harsh.

Are we gonna hear a lot more about that, or was that just the shot across the bow that sort of- - Well, I know that's certainly important to Senator Holman, who wrote that article.

And I think it's just still a very important issue for our entire caucus, 'cause healthcare costs are important for the whole state.

- All right, now either elaborate or add, on as we go- - Yes, well you mentioned 13th check, obviously something.

Representative Porter's been a real champion of that and he's co-sponsor of a bill.

So I think that will move the session.

- And I think the governor has weighed in.

- He did as well, yeah, exactly, obviously there's- - As a sure bet, that may be it.

- Raising the minimum wage is something, I mean it's a whole host of states did that last year, something that Indiana- - And things that aren't a sure bet, minimum wage.

(panelists laughing) For a minute there, I thought you were putting that in the sure bet category, I'm just gonna check my pulse.

- I'm going, "Let's put it in the sure bet."

- Okay, so we're talking fantasy later.

- And then one more sure bet thing is citizen-led ballot initiative.

- [Jon] And another not happening, okay.

- Well, it's something that I think- - This is so people can weigh in on issues such as reproductive rights and as we've seen- - Well, you talk about phone calls that you receive.

- In other states- - I've received several phone calls, because our neighbors in Ohio that just recently went through this issue of being able to vote on this, in this particular case, the issue of abortion.

But there's others, whether it's independent redistricting, we've seen Michigan do that.

There have been other citizen-led ballot initiatives where they have to collect a certain...

They have to meet the threshold of number of signatures.

You and I, Todd, just can't put an issue out there by ourselves, so there's difficult thresholds that you have to meet.

And I think citizen, man, I've gotten a lot of phone calls on that thing.

Why can't we weigh on these things?

- Of course, to give citizens that opportunity, you have two successive sessions of the general assembly, you have to pass independent legislation, then it goes to...

So it's, to get to that point, there's a little bit more.

- Thank you.

- Finish this out here.

- Yeah, well, for me, as I always say, I always find myself in a defensive posture.

This session, I think I'm gonna be looking at my local district and making sure that things that happen down the street from Market, where we're at on one end, we tend to be more aggressive on our side of Market Street to kind of change that.

I want local, rural to be really local, rural.

And I want the citizens of Indianapolis, just like I want the citizens of Fort Wayne or Carmel or or Martinsville to be able to do things and pass ordinance that they feel is best for their people and then leave the state out of it.

So I'm gonna be in a position where I'm probably gonna have to defend some of the things that my colleagues have done over on the other side of Market Street, at the same time, represent the rest of the state and make sure that their communities get to do what they want to do, too.

- Good place to end.

You're all saved by the bell.

You won't be asked to come down one way or the other on tenderloin being the official state sandwich.

You can keep all sides, all your constituents happy by just, you're straddling that one.

Keep it up.

Thank you guys, I really appreciate, I know you're busy, coming to here and talking about the complexities of a short session.

Oftentimes, it's not less activity and not fewer bits of passion and drama, it's just all compressed, makes it even more interesting and you've helped us navigate it.

Again, my guests have been House Speaker Todd Houston, a Fishers Republican, Senate President Pro Tem Rodric Bray, a Martinsville Republican, House Minority Leader Phil GiaQuinta, a Fort Wayne Democrat, and Senate Minority Leader, Greg Taylor, an Indianapolis Democrat.

And time now for our weekly conversation with Ed Feigenbaum, publisher of the newsletter, "Indiana Legislative Insight," part of Hannah News Service.

Ed, is this session gonna be as straightforward as that round table conversation just suggested?

- Oh, yes and no.

They'll set out to accomplish little and they will achieve it.

But then they'll proclaim that they did great things, and in fact they probably will do some things that are important to the people.

But I think you heard from the legislators themselves, the leaders themselves earlier that what we're really doing is setting things up for next year.

And we've seen this rule of threes, that you have to go through hearing some about an idea first and then you say, "Oh, well let's look at that the next time," then the third time is, "Well why haven't we passed that?"

So this is really the first of those kinds of things.

But they will probably get sidetracked by some of the social issues.

There's a bill on school chaplains, for example, and then there's another bill on alcohol regulation that may really kind of gum up the works here.

- So as soon as you talk about education, that opens the door, essentially, for these kinds of other issues.

- Absolutely.

- And where does that take us, though, do we...

In terms of derailing the process?

Where is that?

- Oh, I don't think so.

And they'll get into things like reading proficiency, which they've talked about, and that's an important issue for them this year.

Yeah, absolutely.

But at the same time, they passed legislation on that in 2023.

And you and I are old enough to remember that they used to sometimes let things simmer and see how things worked out.

And we remember when it was a bad thing to keep testing students all the time.

And this year, they're talking about, "Well, we need testing in second grade and then again in third grade and then after that," to make sure that people are reading proficiently.

So as a result you're going to have the same kinds of issues that are raised again and you're gonna get into these same old debates.

And again, things may get derailed.

- And then finally, are all the cards on the table now, or... We can always count on a little bit of a surprise, nobody's talking- - Oh, sure.

There's always something that comes up near the end of the session, and I think you also may have a little bit of sparring over Senator Freeman's bills on limiting some of the home rule things in Indianapolis.

- I think that's a safe bet.

All right, Ed, as always, appreciate your insight.

- Thanks, Jon.

(audience applauding) - On the next edition of "Indiana Lawmakers," we'll sit down for our annual, and it turns out final, post state-of-the-state conversation with Governor Eric Holcomb.

- It is indeed an honor and privilege to report to you again for the eighth time.

- Well, that concludes another edition of Indiana Lawmakers.

I'm Jon Schwantes, and on behalf of commentator Ed Feigenbaum, WFYI Public Media, and Indiana's other public broadcasting stations, I thank you for joining us and I invite you to visit wfyi.org for more statehouse news.

Until next week, take care.

(upbeat music)