JOHN YANG: Good evening.

I'm John Yang.

Amid the turmoil at the CDC, the debate over the federal government's vaccine policy remains as contentious as ever.

Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr's combative appearance on Capitol Hill this week did little to clear up the issue.

He was pressed by senators of both parties, including two Republicans who are physicians.

Now some states are taking matters into their own hands.

They're forming alliances to review scientific data and make their own vaccine recommendations.

The Democratic governors of California, Oregon and Washington with the first act, they were joined the next day by Hawaii.

Earlier, I spoke with Hawaii Governor Josh Green, a Democrat who's a physician.

GOV.

JOSH GREEN (D) Hawaii: We are in a great time of crisis as far as public health goes.

Right now.

The HHS administration led by Mr. Kennedy is in disarray and it's causing a lot of concern across the country.

We need to have good science.

We need data based science.

We need evidence based science.

And so my good friends, the three governors from the west coast formed this alliance.

And I had a lot of experience as a physician and the person who dealt with COVID in Hawaii as lieutenant governor.

So it just made a lot of sense.

But we're going to try to guide the country in a positive way, just non-politically, but in a way that helps us, you know, protect lives.

JONH YANG: How are you going to develop the recommendations?

Who's going to do that?

JOSH GREEN: This will be from scientific experts.

Our expectation is we will use a lot of the people that have been around for several years doing the job under Republicans and Democrats in different administrations, people who are trained pediatricians and infectious disease experts.

It's very likely some of the people that have recently been pushed out of the CDC or the special committees, they may very well want to come aboard.

We also have directors of health in our own states that are our thoughtful public health leaders.

All of these people will contribute.

Plus, we'll do what you should do, which is rely on things like the national pediatric associations and internal medicine associations and all of these individuals that have given us the right guidance to keep disease at a minimum, to prevent outbreaks like measles and mumps and polio.

Because I tell you, it's very disconcerting right now to see what's happening.

Not only are they dismantling what will be good advice, but they're kind of giving license to other states to go rogue.

And that's what you're seeing in Florida.

They're going to pretty much move straight away from science, and they're going to allow people to do whatever they want, which is going to cause outbreaks when people don't get vaccinated.

I'd be remiss if I didn't say that none of this would be necessary if RFK Jr. would just step down and allow someone with a scientific background to run that department.

Because right now you are seeing the great dismantling of public health in America, and we'll do our part to build it up.

But this could be a bumpy couple years, and we're hopeful that this will give people an opportunity to see what the right science recommendations are.

JOHN YANG: And no, you were lieutenant governor when the pandemic began.

You became governor in 2022.

Hawaii had one of the highest vaccination rates and one of the lowest mortality rates during that time.

Are there lessons that can be learned from that for other states or for the federal government?

JOSH GREEN: Absolutely.

What we did was we just expressed in a fair way to everyone what their options were.

It wasn't about mandates.

It wasn't about anything that would scare people like you're seeing come from RFK Jr.

It just was good science.

As a physician, I was able to express what I learned as a family practice physician, how you would best protect yourself.

We went analytically, one community by the next, and what we saw was when people knew that they would have a lower mortality rate, death rate by getting vaccinated, they made a good choice.

So that's the way it's got to go.

So we should give credit to the President for his work in his first term on the.

The production of the mRNA vaccine.

And we should also make sure that this is not a political question so that everyone can get access to that vaccination if they want it, if their doctors recommend it.

And the same can be said for other research, because their move to move away from bird flu research and mRNA research, that means people will not get vaccinations in the next iteration, which, by the way, is a national security threat if only China gets the vaccination, say, the next time, what's going to happen when we have to worry about some terrible virus or even, God forbid, an attack of some sort?

You know, these are real issues for we governors and senators and presidents.

And so it's a colossal mistake, what they're doing, and we're just trying to fill in the gap until there's a new leadership.

JOHN YANG: What does it say, the fact that you and your fellow governors on the west coast feel the need for this alliance?

What does that say about the state of public health in this country?

JOSH GREEN: Well, the state of public health is a cataclysmic disaster right now because of Mr. Kennedy's leadership.

Now, let me be nice here for a moment.

Mr. Kennedy could very well have something to offer the President and the country in the areas of processed foods or nutrition or pesticide use.

I appreciate that, but because he's so divisive and because he has a political axe to grind with vaccinations, we have a full schism, a true divide in our country.

And it tells you that there are two camps.

Those who will follow science and those who will follow politics.

And those who will follow politics are currently in charge of the Department of Health and Human Services.

And it will kill people.

It will kill people.

You've already seen some fatalities from this big measles outbreak.

And believe me, in year two and three of this second administration, it's going to get very bad.

So Mr. Kennedy's not doing the president any favors at all.

I've had very good conversations with leaders at every level in the federal government, including the President, and I am expressing this openly, that he should move Mr. Kennedy to a different place in the government.

If he wants to keep him, that's okay.

And put in someone that aligns with him politically, perhaps conservatively, but follows science, and they can work with Kennedy on some of these nutrition issues, that's fine.

But our health is at stake in our country, especially for our children, especially for children who are not even yet of age to get some of the vaccinations.

It's going to be really bad.

And it's going to be worst in the states that are rural, that are poor, that don't have access to healthcare providers at all, which, by the way, happened to be the president's base, as ironic as that might be.

JOHN YANG: Governor Josh Green, M.D.

Of Hawaii, thank you very much.

JOSH GREEN: Thank you.

It's an honor.