FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS MOVING AWAY FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WE'RE ONE WEEK INTO A NEW PARTNERSHIP THAT HAS UNM HOSPITAL PROVIDING MEDICAL CARE AT THE METROPOLITAN DETENTION CENTER AFTER YEARS OF ABUSES UNDER FOR-PROFIT COMPANIES.

>> Jeff: THE DEATH RATE IS MARKEDLY HIGHER IN THOSE FACILITIES ACROSS THE NATION THAN IN PLACES WHERE THE GOVERNMENT DIRECTLY OPERATES THE MEDICAL CARE.

>> Gene: AND THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE NOW SAYS IT ACCIDENTALLY STARTED A THIRD MAJOR FOREST FIRE IN OUR OR STATE LAST YEAR.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

WE ARE TRACKING SEVERAL ENVIRONMENTAL STORIES WITH LONG-TERM IMPLICATIONS ACROSS OUR STATE.

THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE NOW SAYS IT CAUSED LAST YEAR'S CERRO PELADO FIRE IN THE JEMEZ MOUNTAINS WHICH BURNED MORE THAN 45,000 ACRES.

IN ABOUT ONE MINUTE I'LL SIT DOWN WITH OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS FOR THE WEEK TO TALK ABOUT THE HOLD-OVER PILE BURN THAT CAUSED IT AND THE CONSEQUENCES THAT MIGHT FOLLOW THIS REVELATION.

THEN, IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SHOW, WE'LL BE TALKING WATER.

MORE THAN 80% OF THE STATE'S FRESH WATER IS BEING USED FOR AGRICULTURE.

I'LL ASK IF THE STATE SHOULD STEP IN TO PRIORITIZE RESIDENTIAL AND DRINKING WATER.

AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HOUR, OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS UPDATES THE LEGAL BATTLE BETWEEN TEXAS, COLORADO AND NEW MEXICO OVER A 15-YEAR OLD WATER-SHARING AGREEMENT.

THE THREE STATES SAY THEY HAVE COME UP WITH PLAN TO MOVE FORWARD, BUT THE FEDS HAVEN'T SIGNED OFF YET.

THAT IS IN ABOUT 45 MINUTES.

BUT WE START WITH THAT ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE FOREST SERVICE CLAIMING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CERRO PELADO FIRE AFTER MONTHS OF SILENCE.

LET'S GET TO THE LINE.

WELCOME TO OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS FOR THE WEEK.

WE'RE HAPPY TO BE JOINED IN STUDIO BY PAULA GARCIA.

SHE IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF NEW MEXICO ACEQUIA ASSOCIATION.

ACROSS THE STABLE JOHN FLECK, A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO WHO IS ALSO A WATER RESEARCHER AT THE UNIVERSITY'S UTTON CENTER.

ACROSS THE TABLE FROM HIM, FREELANCE REPORTER ELIZABETH MILLER, IS WITH US AS WELL.

WE BEGIN WITH A LOOK BACK TO SPRING 2022, WHEN THE CERRO PELADO FIRE BURNED UP NEARLY 45,000 ACERS IN THE JEMEZ MOUNTAINS.

NOW, WE HAVE LEARNED THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE CAUSED THAT FIRE THROUGH THEIR MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES.

THE FIRE BURNED FOR NEARLY TWO MONTHS, AS YOU MIGHT RECALL, DESTROYING 10 STRUCTURES AND FORCING PEOPLE NEARBY TO EVACUATE.

THE FOREST SERVICE SAYS A HOLD-OVER FIRE FROM A PRESCRIBED BURN TWO WEEKS PRIOR IGNITED BRUSH IN THE FOREST SPARKING THE FIRE.

ALTHOUGH WE HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THE PRESCRIBED BURN FOR WELL OVER A YEAR, THE FOREST SERVICE DIDN'T CONFIRM THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THOSE TWO UNTIL LAST MONTH.

LET'S START WITH WHY WE ARE JUST NOW HEARING THIS.

JOHN, THIS PRESCRIBED BURN CAUSED THE CERRO PELADO.

IS THERE A LEGITIMATE REASON FOR THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE TO BE SO TIGHT LIPPED ABOUT ITS WORK AND THE CAUSES OF ITS WORK?

FROM YOUR SENSE OF IT, WHY DO THEY DO THIS?

WHY DOES IT TAKE SO LONG TO GET INFO FROM THEM?

>> Fleck: SO THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE SEEN AND, YOU KNOW, I HAD A CAREER AS A JOURNALIST BEFORE I ENTERED ACADEMIA AND SAW THIS OVER THE TIME THAT I WORKED IN NEWSPAPERS, AN INCREASING UNWILLINGNESS BY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, ESPECIALLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, TO BE INTERACTIVE AND FORTHCOMING WITH INFORMATION ABOUT CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECTS.

SO, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN I WOULD CALL THE FOREST SERVICE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THE DIRECTOR OF THE FOREST WOULD GET ON THE PHONE WITH ME, RIGHT?

AND YOU COULD HAVE THOSE KIND OF CONVERSATIONS.

INCREASINGLY, FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, INFORMATION CONTROL BEING THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, THAT IS NOT HAPPENING AND I THINK THAT IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE GIVEN THE COMMUNITY IMPACTS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF OUR ABILITY IN DEALING WITH THE PROBLEM OF OUR FOREST MANAGEMENT TO WORK TOGETHER ACROSS THE BOUNDARIES OF GOVERNMENT AGENCIES.

THE TOP OF THAT PYRAMID IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> Gene: INTERESTING POINTS THERE.

ELIZABETH, WELCOME TO THE TABLE.

FIRST TIME HERE.

I AM CURIOUS, THIS WAS A THIRD FIRE STARTED BY THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE LAST YEAR, ALL OF THEM BEING THE DIRECT RESULT OF PRESCRIBE FIRES.

HOW NECESSARY ARE THESE PRESCRIBED FIRES?

WE ALWAYS ASK THIS QUESTION FOR FOREST MANAGEMENT AND EVERYTHING ELSE, WE GET A LOT OF THINGS ABOUT GROUND COVER AND THINGS COME UP BUT WE ARE NOT TERRIBLY THINNED STATE-WIDE.

ARE OUR HANDS TIED HERE?

DO WE HAVE TO DO THIS AT THIS POINT?

>> Miller: I THINK THE ROLE OF PRESCRIBED FIRE ECOLOGICALLY IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

WE DID 110 YEARS OF WILDFIRE SUPPRESSION.

THE RULES WERE TO GET EVERY SMOKE OUT BY 10:00 A.M.

THE NEXT DAY AND RESULT IS THAT WE DO HAVE A LOT OF DENSE STAND OF TREES, SOMETIMES EVEN DIFFERENT SPECIES OF TREES SPREADING INTO THE NORTH SLOPES OF FOREST.

IT HAS REALLY AFFECTED FOREST COMPOSITION AND FOREST STRUCTURE.

AND FIRE IS A WONDERFUL WAY FOR THE ECOSYSTEM TO RESET ITSELF.

IT THINS OUT THE BRUSH.

IT ALLOWS FOR DIFFERENT SPECIES TO MOVE IN.

IT CAN DO ALL OF THESE WONDERFUL THINGS.

AND WE ALSO HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME WITH FIRE IN AN ECOSYSTEM WHERE WE HAVE BUILT UP INTO THE FOREST.

THERE ARE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE BUILDING ON THE WILD AND URBAN INTERFACE.

SO, THERE ARE HOMES ENCROACHING IN AREAS, RIGHT UP AGAINST SOME OF THESE VERY DENSE STANDS OF FOREST.

AND SO FINDING THIS BALANCE OF BRINGING FIRE BACK FOR ALL OF THE NECESSARY ECOLOGICAL PURPOSES THAT IT SERVES AND NOT PUTTING STRUCTURES AND HOMES AT RISK IS A REALLY TRICKY PLACE.

BUT I THINK THE SCARY TAKE AWAY COULD BE FROM THESE STRING OF TERRIBLE INCIDENTS THAT WE NEED TO STOP PRESCRIBED FIRE AND THAT COULD FURTHER COMPOUND SOME OF THESE ISSUES.

>> Gene: ELIZABETH I WANT YOU TO GET IN ON WHAT JOHN SPOKE ABOUT AS WELL.

YOU'RE A WATER RESEARCHER.

YOU DID A SERIES THIS PAST SPRING.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT WATER.

YOUR SENSE OF IT, WHY IS THE FOREST SERVICE SO SECRETIVE ABOUT THIS?

AND THE REASON I ASK, IT SEEMS IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO GET POLICY DECISIONS YOU'RE DESCRIBING WITHOUT BEING TIMELY ABOUT WHY CERTAIN THINGS HAPPEN.

AM I CORRECT ON THAT CONNECTION?

>> Miller: I THINK IT IS A REAL CONUNDRUM FOR THE FOREST SERVICE.

THEY HAVE A DIRECTIVE TO USE THE BEST AVAILABLE SCIENCE AND PAIRING SCIENCE THAT IS EVOLVING AS QUICKLY PARTICULARLY AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE RIGHT NOW AS WE ARE SEEING AND CONDITIONS CHANGE AND THE PROBLEM WITH THE HERMIT PEAK CALF CANYON FIRE, WHICH ALSO STARTED WITH PRESCRIBED BURN, IS THAT IT WAS OUTDATED BURN PLAN AND A PLAN THAT DIDN'T ADJUST ACCORDING TO WEATHER CHANGE IN THE DAY OF.

WHERE THE FOREST SERVICE, I THINK, IS STALLING OUT NOW IS IN CONNECTING THE DOTS BETWEEN FOLLOWING SOME OF THE CHANGES IN POLICY THAT CAME DOWN AFTER LAST YEAR'S 90-DAY BAN ON PRESCRIBED BURNS, AND THAT WAS A NATIONWIDE MEASURE TO TRY TO MAKE SURE THAT THE FOREST SERVICE WASN'T STARTING THESE KIND OF PROBLEMS.

AND THE CHANGES THAT HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED INTERNALLY, THE CHANGES THAT HAVE RIPPLED OUT OF MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE BILLS THAT PASSED ON A FEDERAL LEVEL LAST YEAR THAT'S ALLOWED FOR, FROM WHAT I HEAR, MORE STAFFING, MORE COMMUNITY OUTREACH, AND YET I AM NOT SEEING QUITE AS MUCH TRANSPARENCY AROUND THAT AND NOT AS MUCH ATTENTION TO REBUILDING THE FAITH FROM THE COMMUNITIES, AS IS NEEDED.

>> Gene: GOOD POINT.

PAULA, THANK YOU FOR COMING IN TODAY AS WELL.

APPRECIATE THE WORK YOU DO WITH THE ACEQUIA ASSOCIATION.

I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU ON THIS IDEA OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

HOW MUCH IT MIGHT BE CONTRIBUTING TO THIS PROBLEM.

INTERESTING QUOTE IN THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN FROM RANDY MOORE, SOMEONE JOHN KNOWS WELL, THE FOREST SERVICE CHIEF HERE IN THE STATE.

THESE KIND OF FIRES, HOLD-OVER FIRES, ARE A RECENT PHENOMENON CAUSED BY PROLONGED DROUGHTS ASSOCIATED WITH CLIMATE CHANGE.

DOES THAT ABSOLVE THE FOREST SERVICE HERE OR SHOULD THEY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE QUICKER IN UNDERSTANDING, YEAH, WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, MAYBE YOU NEED TO MAKE SOME CHANGES AS WELL.

INTERESTED IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHERE HE IS COMING FROM ON THAT.

>> Garcia: LET'S PUT THIS INTO CONTEXT.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT -- THE CERRO GRANDE FIRE WAS ALSO STARTED BY A PRESCRIBED BURN.

SO THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO.

SO, IF, INDEED, THE FOREST SERVICE IS KEEPING UP WITH ALL OF THE CHANGING CONDITIONS RELATED TO CLIMATE CHANGE, THOSE NEW PROTOCOLS SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN PLACE BY NOW.

SO, I DO THINK, THOUGH, IT'S INSTITUTIONAL FAILURE.

I DON'T THINK IT ABSOLVES THE FOREST SERVICE TO SAY, WELL, IT IS CLIMATE CHANGE, BECAUSE WE HAVE KNOWN ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE FOR DECADES.

THOSE FIRES PRECEDED HERMIT'S PEAK, THE CERRO PELADO BURN PILE WHICH WAS A HOLD OVER, THERE WASN'T ENOUGH PROCEDURES IN PLACE TO ENSURE THAT THE FIRES WOULDN'T GET OUT OF HAND.

SO, I THINK THAT THERE WAS PERHAPS SOME HUMAN ERROR BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY I THINK INSTITUTIONAL ERROR BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT KEEPING UP WITH THE PACE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE MOISTURE CONTENT OF THE TREES IS VERY LOW.

THE SOIL MOISTURE IS VERY LOW AND WE ARE DEALING WITH HIGHER TEMPERATURES.

SO, THERE IS ALL THESE FACTORS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO FIRES GETTING OUT OF CONTROL AND I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF INFORMATION IN INVESTIGATIONAL PARTS ABOUT MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE AND ARE WE GOING TO LEARN FROM THOSE MISTAKES?

THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

I DON'T WANT TO BE IN THE NEXT COMMUNITY WHERE THERE IS ESCAPED PRESCRIBED BURN AND THERE IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE A LOT OF CHANGE IN THE FOREST SERVICE TO REGAIN THE TRUST OF THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY SERVE, THE FOREST COMMUNITIES AND LAND-BASED PEOPLES, THESE FIRES AFFECTED SOME VERY -- YOU KNOW FROM A PERSPECTIVE OF LAND-BASED PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT PUEBLOS THAT HAVE THEIR TRIBAL LANDS THAT WERE IMPACTED BY CERRO PELADO.

THERE IS DOWNSTREAM TRADITIONAL RURAL COMMUNITIES IMPACTED.

AND REGAINING THE TRUST OF THOSE COMMUNITIES IS GOING TO TAKE SOME DRAMATIC CHANGE.

THEY ARE NOT TWEAKS TO MANUALS.

IT IS AN OVERALL MANAGEMENT APPROACH AND I THINK THEY NEED TO LISTEN BETTER.

I THINK THEY NEED TO ADAPT MORE TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND INTEGRATE LESSONS LEARNED BECAUSE IF IT TAKES A WHOLE YEAR TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT WRONG, THEN THE PACE OF INSTITUTIONAL CHANGE IS GOING TO BE TOO SLOW TO KEEP UP WITH THE DEMAND.

AND WE DON'T GET -- I MEAN, BEING FROM A FOREST COMMUNITY WE DON'T GET A LOT OF COMFORT HEARING, OH, WE HAVE SOME BETTER RULES NOW.

LIKE, WELL, IT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME -- A LOT OF CONCERTED EFFORT TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

>> Gene: I CAN SEE THAT FOR SURE.

SPEAKING ABOUT SLOWNESS.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE WHOLE HERE.

CONGRESS APPROVED NEARLY FOUR BILLION TO COMPENSATE VICTIMS OF THE HERMIT'S PEAK CALF CANYON FIRE AS WE KNOW.

ARE VICTIMS OF THE CERRO PELADO FIRE ENTITLED TO FEDERAL MONEY OR IS THE CURRENT SLOW DRIP OF FEMA AS WE KNOW, AS FOR FUNDS FOR SURVIVORS, WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

HOW ARE PEOPLE BEING MADE WHOLE HERE AND CAN THEY BE ACTUALLY?

>> Fleck: IT IS CLEAR THAT WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION AS A BROAD COMMUNITY TO THOSE COMMUNITIES LIKE PAULA'S THAT WERE SO DRAMATICALLY DAMAGED BY THESE FIRES.

IT IS CLEAR THAT THE SYSTEM WE HAVE SET UP TO DO THAT IS FAILING US.

WE HAVE TO DO BETTER BUT IT IS A HARD PROBLEM.

LIKE FIGURING OUT HOW TO REBUILD COMMUNITIES IS A NONTRIVIAL PROBLEM.

IF I HAD THE ANSWER OR ANSWERS WERE EASY, IT WOULD BE DONE.

>> Gene: THAT IS RIGHT.

>> Fleck: IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE A LOT OF THE FOLKS WATCHING THIS PROGRAM, FOLKS LIVING IN URBAN AREAS ARE THINKING THIS IS NOT MY PROBLEM.

BUT, IN FACT, WHAT WE HAVE IS A BROAD SHARE OF RESPONSIBILITIES BECAUSE THE WATER SUPPLY, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT ALBUQUERQUE AND SANTA FE GETS, FLOWS THROUGH FORESTS.

AND FLOWS THROUGH FORESTS THAT ARE A MIX OF PRIVATE LAND AND STATE LAND AND FEDERAL LAND.

AND PROGRAMS LIKE THE RIO GRANDE WATER FUND WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO BRING TOGETHER MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE BENEFICIARIES OF WHAT THIS FOREST OFFERS, NOT JUST LEAVING THIS PROBLEM TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND FOLKS THAT LIVE THERE, BUT NEW MEXICO, AS A WHOLE, IS DEPENDENT BROADLY ON THESE FORESTS.

AND UNDERSTANDING THAT SOLVING THIS PROBLEM, DEALING WITH THE CHANGES WE NEED TO MAKE IN THE FOREST SERVICE, IS SORT OF A SHARED RESPONSIBILITY.

>> Gene: ELIZABETH, WHERE DOES THE STATE STEP IN?

I GET THIS QUESTION A LOT.

WE TALK SO MUCH ABOUT THE FOREST SERVICE, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, ALL THAT KIND OF THING.

ARE WE DOING AS MUCH AS WE COULD BE POSSIBLY FROM THE STATE POINT OF VIEW, IN YOUR VIEW.

>> Miller: AS MUCH AS WE COULD POSSIBLY DO IS A REALLY DIFFICULT QUESTION TO SPEAK TO BUT I THINK ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS I HAVE NOTED IN AFTEREFFECTS OF THE LAST YEAR IS THAT THE STATE CAME FORWARD WITH A POLICY OF SAYING, YOU DO NOT START A PRESCRIBED FIRE ON SOMETHING THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE AS DECLARED AS A RED FLAG WARNING DAY, WHICH IS TO SAY THAT THE CONDITIONS ARE DRY, THE WIND IS UP, FIRE COULD SPREAD EASILY.

AND THAT WAS THE SITUATION WITH THE HERMIT'S PEAK FIRE, THOSE TWO FIRES, WAS IT STARTED ON A RED FLAG DAY.

ANYONE I SPOKE TO IN THE COURSE OF REPORTING ON THAT FIRE SAID WE WOULD NEVER HAVE -- AS A LAND USER AS A LANDOWNER, I WOULD NEVER HAVE LIT A FIRE ON MY LAND THAT DAY.

I DON'T KNOW WHY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE.

SO, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN WILLING TO HEAR THAT STATEMENT AND THAT POLICY FROM THE STATE AND ADOPT IT EVEN THOUGH POLICY DOESN'T USUALLY RUN UPSTREAM LIKE THAT.

I THINK THAT IS A SIGN OF NEW MEXICO'S ABILITY TO TAKE A STAND ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES AND GET SOME RESPONSIVENESS FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THAT IS AT LEAST ONE THING THEY ACHIEVED.

>> Gene: GOOD POINTS THERE.

THANKS TO THE LINE OPINION PANEL.

WE'LL MEET BACK HERE AT THE TABLE IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT HOW OUR STATE USES ITS LIMITED AMOUNT OF FRESH WATER AND WHY SOME GROUPS ARE CALLING FOR A CHANGE.

>> Oglesby: THE OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE CONTRACT ARE HELD BY ALL NEW MEXICANS.

IT IS NOT JUST THE FARMER WHO HAS TO DELIVER THE WATER.

SO, IF THERE WAS A CALL TO DELIVER A LOT MORE WATER, THAT WOULD POTENTIALLY COME FROM NOT ONLY THE LOWER RIO GRANDE BUT POTENTIALLY THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE AND OTHER PLACES ALONG THE RIVER.

MOREOVER, THE COMPACT IS AN AGREEMENT.

IT IS A CONTRACT OF SORTS AND WE AS NEW MEXICANS SHOULD STANDBY OUR WORD.

>> Gene: PETER CUBRA HAS BEEN ADVOCATING FOR THE RIGHTS OF INCARCERATED PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO SINCE THE 1980'S.

HE HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN SOME OF THE LONGEST RUNNING COURT CASES IN STATE HISTORY OVER CONDITIONS INSIDE THE WALLS.

NOW, THE RETIRED ALBUQUERQUE ATTORNEY IS SOUNDING A NOTE OF OPTIMISM AS UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO HOSPITAL TAKES OVER THE MEDICAL SERVICES CONTRACT AT THE BERNALILLO COUNTY JAIL.

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SPOKE WITH MR. CUBRA ABOUT WHY IT IS A WELCOME CHANGE FROM PRIVATE COMPANIES THAT HAVE REPEATEDLY FAILED TO CARE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LOCKED UP.

>> Jeff: PETER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME ON NEW MEXICO FOCUS TODAY.

>> Cubra: PLEASURE BEING HERE, THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: AS WE JUST HEARD GENE SAY, YOU AND I ARE GOING TO SPEND SOME TIME TALKING ABOUT THE NEW PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN UNM HOSPITAL AND BERNALILLO COUNTY FOR PROVISION OF MEDICAL SERVICES AT THE JAIL.

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN BY BACKING UP A LITTLE BIT AND TALKING ABOUT SORT OF WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON AT THE METROPOLITAN DETENTION CENTER IN RECENT YEARS.

WE HAVE HAD MORE THAN 20 DEATHS THERE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF 2020.

MANY OF THOSE WERE FOLKS WHO WERE DETOXING FROM SUBSTANCES.

WHAT HAS BEEN THE POINT OF FAILURE THAT HAS LED TO THAT HUGE INCREASE IN DEATHS AT THE JAIL?

>> Cubra: WELL, THE TWO BIG THINGS THAT I HAVE NOTICED IS SINCE THE CORIZON CORPORATION WAS BROUGHT IN IN OCTOBER OF 2021, IS THAT THIS CORPORATION EVEN UNLIKE THE OTHER FOR-PROFIT CORPORATIONS DID NOT FOLLOW ANY OF THE PATTERNS THAT WE HAD ESTABLISHED THERE THAT WERE WORKING.

AND SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY MADE LONG-TIME EMPLOYEES START TO DO EVERY KIND OF NURSING ACROSS THE BOARD IN A WAY THAT THEY WEREN'T SKILLED TO DO INSTEAD OF SPECIALIZED IN THE AREAS WHERE THEY HAD SPECIAL SKILLS.

SO, THERE WAS AN INEPTITUDE AMONG THE STAFF IN A WAY WE DIDN'T SEE BEFORE.

BUT MOST TROUBLING IS THAT THEY NEVER DID STAFF UP.

ALMOST HALF OF THE POSITIONS THAT WERE AUTHORIZED AND REQUIRED BY THE FEDERAL COURT ORDER IN THE MCCLENDON CASE, THEY NEVER FILLED IN THE ALMOST TWO YEARS THAT THEY WERE THERE.

OF COURSE, THE COMPOUNDING FACTOR THAT HAS CONTRIBUTED TO ALL OF THE PROBLEMS WITH HEALTHCARE INSIDE THE JAIL IS THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH CUSTODY STAFF.

AND SO WITH ALL OF THOSE VACANCIES THE CUSTODY STAFF FREQUENTLY DIDN'T GET PEOPLE TO THE APPOINTMENTS THAT THEY NEEDED.

SO, FOR PEOPLE WITH CHRONIC PROBLEMS WHO DIDN'T DIE IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF DAYS, IT WAS OFTEN THE CASE THAT THEY WERE NEVER TAKEN TO THE MEDICAL APPOINTMENTS THAT THEY HAD SCHEDULED BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ONE TO JUST WALK THEM DOWN THE HALL TO GET THEM TO THE CLINIC.

>> Jeff: LET'S GO A LITTLE DEEPER ON WHO IS IN THE JAIL.

I KNOW YOU WANTED TO TALK SOME ABOUT THE POPULATION NUMBERS, THE MOST RECENT POPULATION NUMBERS.

WHAT ARE WE SEEING OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST YEAR OR TWO IN TERMS OF HOW MANY FOLKS ARE IN THE JAIL AND WHAT KIND OF LIFE STATUS THEY HAVE.

>> Cubra: WELL, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT I THINK OF AS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE PUBLIC TO KNOW.

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN WE HAD LESS THAN 1100 PEOPLE INSIDE THE JAIL, JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

AND TODAY, WE ARE BUMPING UP AGAINST 1600.

SO, THAT HAS BEEN A SUBSTANTIAL, I THINK, IT AROUND A 40% INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE HOUSED INSIDE THE JAIL.

THERE ARE SEVERAL FACTORS THAT GO INTO THAT, BUT THE ONE I AM MOST CONCERNED ABOUT IS IT APPEARS TO ME THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE MADE A DECISION IN THE LAST YEAR OR TWO THAT THEY WERE GOING TO START TO CRACK DOWN ON HOMELESS.

AND SO COUNTLESS PEOPLE, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE EVERY MONTH ARE BEING INCARCERATED FOR PETTY THINGS THAT NO ONE ELSE WOULD BE INCARCERATED FOR.

WERE YOU TRESPASSING?

WERE YOU LOITERING.

WERE YOU JAY WALKING.

PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE PERMANENT ADDRESSES, THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE HAS THEIR POLICE DEPARTMENT SWEEPING THEM OUT OF THE STREETS AND INTO THE JAIL.

AND SO THAT IS ONE OF THE BIG COMPONENTS.

THAT IS THE THING THAT IS MOST REMARKABLE TO ME.

THIS MORNING I WAS LOOKING AT THE WEBSITE, THE COUNTY HAS -- THEY CALL IT A DASHBOARD THAT SHOWS THE CENSUS IN THE JAIL AND IT BREAKS DOWN CERTAIN TRAITS.

TODAY, OVER 500 PEOPLE INSIDE THE JAIL, THERE IS ABOUT 1,591 PEOPLE, AS I RECALL, ON THE DASHBOARD AS COMMITTED TO THE JAIL.

OVER 500 PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE AN ADDRESS.

SO, THEY CALL THEM TRANSIENT.

IT IS NOT NECESSARILY SO.

MANY OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE LIVED THEIR WHOLE LIVES HERE BUT IT IS SHOCKING THAT OVER 1/3 OF THE PEOPLE IN THE JAIL ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD HOUSING.

>> Jeff: IT IS SHOCKING.

OVER A THIRD.

THAT IS A HUGE NUMBER.

AND I THINK IT IS A GOOD SEGUE INTO MY NEXT QUESTION.

LIVING IN ALBUQUERQUE IN 2023, YOU CANNOT TURN YOUR HEAD EVEN A QUARTER OF A DEGREE WITHOUT SEEING EVIDENCE OF OR AT LEAST DISCUSSION OF INCREASING CRIME RATES AND THE CRISIS FACING UNSHELTERED PEOPLE HERE.

TO SWING IT BACK A LITTLE BIT TO THE MEDICAL SERVICES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROVIDED IN THE JAIL, HOW DOES THAT PROVISION OR LACK OF THAT PROVISION INSIDE THE JAIL IMPACT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE COMMUNITY OUTSIDE THE JAIL.

>> Cubra: MY THOUGHTS ARE THESE.

THERE IS A SYSTEM THAT WAS DESIGNED AND ESTABLISHED AND PUT INTO PLACE A FEW YEARS AGO CALLED RESOURCE AND REENTRY CENTER.

IT IS AT THE OLD METRO COURTHOUSE AT ROMA AND FOURTH.

THE CONCEPT OF THAT IS A VERY SOUND CONCEPT, THAT PEOPLE WOULD GO THERE AND HAVE A CHANCE THERE TO HAVE A WARM HAND OFF TO SOCIAL SERVICES, MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES, DRUG TREATMENT SERVICES.

BUT, IN FACT, IT HAS NEVER OPERATED PROPERLY AND SO PEOPLE ARE ROUTINELY BEING BROUGHT THERE, LONG AFTER BUSINESS HOURS, OFTENTIMES AS LATE AS 3:00 A.M., STRAIGHT FROM THE JAIL, AND THEN CAST OUT.

AND AT THAT POINT THAT FACILITY CAN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING FOR THEM.

SO, THE RESOURCE REENTRY CENTER IS NOT WORKING PROPERLY.

THE OTHER THING THAT IS VERY CONCERNING TO ME IS THAT WHAT WE CALL DISCHARGE PLANNING OR REENTRY PLANNING IS NOMINALLY SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING FOR EVERYBODY WHO LEAVES THE JAIL BUT BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF STAFFING, BOTH SECURITY STAFFING AND MENTAL HEALTH STAFFING, THAT HAS GROUND TO A HALT AS WELL.

SO, PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THERE IN THE DARK, IN THE NIGHT, NO PLACE TO GO.

CONCEPTUALLY PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO GET ACCESS TO PILLS BY GETTING A SCRIPT AND THEN GOING TO WALGREEN'S AND SO FORTH, TO KEEP THEIR MEDICINE, BUT OFTENTIMES PEOPLE NEVER GET THOSE PILLS.

BECAUSE, REALLY, WHAT HAS BECOME THE TRUTH IS SOMETHING THAT THE JAIL WARDEN HAS SAID.

HE CAME FROM TEXAS AND HE HAS GOT A BACKGROUND IN OTHER PLACES AND HE SAID, HE DOESN'T RUN A JAIL, HE RUNS NEW MEXICO'S BIGGEST DETOX FACILITY.

AND SO THE PEOPLE WITH PROBLEMS WITH DRUGS AND ALCOHOL AND ALSO PSYCHIATRIC CONDITIONS, THOSE ARE PRIMARILY THE PEOPLE IN THE JAIL.

MOST OF THE PEOPLE INSIDE THE JAIL IN THE LAST FEW YEARS HAVE BEEN RECEIVING PSYCHIATRIC CARE WHILE IN JAIL.

AND SO THE PREVIOUS WARDEN SAID THAT HE WASN'T RUNNING A JAIL, HE WAS RUNNING NEW MEXICO'S BIGGEST MENTAL HEALTH FACILITY.

>> Jeff: TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING YOU HAD MENTIONED EARLIER, YOU DID MENTION CORIZON, THE COMPANY THAT PREVIOUSLY HAD MEDICAL SERVICES CONTRACT AT THE METROPOLITAN DETENTION CENTER.

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK JUST A BRIEF QUESTION ABOUT THAT MODEL.

HAVING THE FOR-PROFIT COMPANIES PERFORM THAT WORK, WHAT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES HAVE YOU SEEN WITH THAT MODEL?

>> Cubra: I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU AND OTHERS WHO ARE LISTENING, WATCHING, TO TAKE A LOOK ONLINE AND JUST LOOK UP REUTERS AND PRIVATE PRISON HEALTHCARE AND YOU'LL FIND AN ARTICLE FROM A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WHERE REUTERS DID THIS IN-DEPTH STUDY.

SO, WHAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE CALLED THE MEDICAL INCARCERATION INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX IS SOMETHING THAT HAS DEVELOPED IN MY YEARS AS AN ADVOCATE.

I STARTED DOING THIS KIND OF WORK HELPING PEOPLE WHO GET INCARCERATED BACK IN THE 80'S.

AND SINCE THAT TIME, PRIVATIZED HEALTH CARE BY FOR-PROFIT CORPORATIONS HAS PROLIFERATED IN AMERICA.

AND THE LAST I SAW THE STATISTIC WAS THAT ABOUT 65% OF ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED ARE GETTING THEIR MEDICAL CARE FROM PRIVATE, FOR-PROFIT CORPORATIONS IN AMERICA.

AND, FRANKLY, THOSE CORPORATIONS HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO GIVE GOOD CARE.

THEY MAKE THEIR PROFIT BY WITHHOLDING CARE.

SO, THE DEATH RATE AMONG PEOPLE WHO ARE IN A FACILITY WHERE PRIVATE FOR-PROFIT CORPORATIONS ARE THE VENDOR, THE PROVIDER OF HEALTHCARE, THE DEATH RATE IS MARKEDLY HIGHER IN THOSE FACILITIES ACROSS THE NATION THAN IN PLACES WHERE THE GOVERNMENT DIRECTLY OPERATES THE MEDICAL CARE.

>> Jeff: I THINK YOU KIND OF JUST ANSWERED MY NEXT QUESTION, BUT I AM GOING TO TRY IT ANYWAY AND SEE IF IT SPURS YOU TO SAY SOMETHING IN ADDITION.

THAT MODEL THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED IS CHANGING FOR MDC.

JUST LAST WEEK, UNM HOSPITAL TOOK OVER THAT MEDICAL SERVICES CONTRACT.

IT IS A FOUR-YEAR CONTRACT, 20 MILLION A YEAR.

IT CREATES A NEW GOVERNMENT ENTITY CALLED THE MDC HEALTHCARE AUTHORITY.

FOR AS LONG AS I HAVE KNOWN YOU, YOU HAVE ADVOCATED FOR A SETUP LIKE THAT.

WHY?

>> Cubra: THAT ONE IS SIMPLE.

IN 1995 SOME OTHER LAWYERS AND I SUED THE JAIL BECAUSE OF HOW PEOPLE WITH INTELLECTUAL DISABILITIES AND PSYCHIATRIC CONDITIONS WERE BEING MISTREATED, ABUSED AND NEGLECTED INSIDE THE OLD JAIL DOWNTOWN.

AS A RESULT OF THAT MCCLENDON CASE, WE WORKED WITH THE CITY, WHICH WAS THEN ADMINISTERING THE JAIL, AND THEY NEGOTIATED WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

UNM'S PSYCHIATRIC CENTER BEGAN, WHEN WE SETTLED THAT CASE IN 1996, TO BE THE PROVIDER OF PSYCHIATRIC CARE AND MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES AND THEN IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS THEY BECAME THE PROVIDER OF ALL HEALTHCARE.

THROUGH 2003 WHEN THE CITY THREW UP ITS HANDS AND SAID, WE DON'T WANT TO DO THIS ANYMORE, COUNTY YOU HAVE TO TAKE BACK THE JAIL MANAGEMENT, AT THAT TIME, THROUGH 2003, UNM WAS RUNNING THE OPERATION AND WE WERE SEEING MARKED IMPROVEMENT ONCE THEY WERE THERE, COMPARED TO WHAT WE SAW BEFORE THAT.

WHEN THE COUNTY DECIDED TO PUT OUT A REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL AND LET ANY VENDOR OFFER TO DO IT, THEN THESE CORPORATIONS, AS THEY DO, THEY COME LIKE SHARKS AND THEY SAY, I'LL DO IT FOR LESS AND THEY PROMISE TO FOLLOW THE ORDERS IN THE MCCLENDON CASE.

THEY NEVER DO.

THEY KNOWINGLY ARE BIDDING AT A NUMBER THAT IS NOT REALISTIC TO COMPLY WITH THE COURT ORDERS OR WITH GOOD STANDARD PRACTICE EITHER.

AND THEN THESE CORPORATIONS HAVE, YOU KNOW, PROFITED AS MUCH AS THEY COULD, REDUCED CARE AS MUCH AS THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH, POCKETED THE MONEY AND THEN MOVE ON AND THEN WE HAVE REPEATED THAT CYCLE EVER SINCE 2003.

>> Jeff: I THINK SOME PEOPLE WATCHING THIS ARE GOING TO SAY, THE LEADERSHIP OF THE COUNTY ISN'T CHANGING.

THE LEADERSHIP AT THE JAIL ISN'T CHANGING.

WILL THIS NEW ENTITY NECESSARILY USHER IN MORE TRANSPARENCY, MORE ACCOUNTABILITY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY BETTER CARE FOR THE PEOPLE INCARCERATED THERE.

>> Cubra: THAT HANGS IN THE BALANCE RIGHT THIS MINUTE.

BECAUSE THIS HEALTH AUTHORITY, I FULLY SUPPORT.

THIS IS THE BEST DEVELOPMENT I HAVE SEEN IN DECADES WITH RESPECT TO OUR JAIL SYSTEM BUT IT IS ONLY CONCEPTUALLY SO BECAUSE UNM STEPPED UP AND THEIR LEADERS DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO DO THIS, BECAUSE, ONE, IT WAS THE RIGHT THING, IT WOULD SAVE LIVE OF THEIR PATIENTS WHO THEY SERVE BEFORE JAIL, THEY SERVE AFTER JAIL AND NOW THEY ARE GOING TO SERVE THEM CONTINUOUSLY.

SO UNM CORRECTLY SAID, WE ARE GOING TO SAVE SOME LIVES AND HELP PEOPLE HAVE BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE AND SO THEY DID THAT COURAGEOUSLY, BUT THEY ALSO DID IT AT GREAT RISK BECAUSE THE CONTRACT THAT THEY SIGNED OR I GUESS IT IS NOW CALLED A JOINT POWERS AGREEMENT BETWEEN UNM AND THE COUNTY, IT SAYS THAT THE COUNTY IS ONLY GOING TO PAY THE SAME INADEQUATE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY HAVE BEEN PAYING FOR THE PRIVATE COMPANY UNTIL THEY NEGOTIATE SOMETHING ELSE.

SO THAT IS THE KEY QUESTION.

THE COUNTY STOPPED GIVING DECENT CARE TO SAVE MONEY.

THE COUNTY FOR YEARS KEPT PAYING TOO LITTLE TO SAVE MONEY.

AND NOW THE COUNTY HAS TO EITHER PAY AN ADEQUATE AMOUNT OR EVEN UNM CAN'T RESCUE THE SITUATION.

SO, IT COMES DOWN TO WHETHER THE COUNTY COMMISSION, THE COUNTY MANAGER WILL ACTUALLY AFFORD SUFFICIENT DOLLARS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.

NOW, I WANT TO SAY THERE IS REALLY AN EASY ANSWER TO THAT.

BACK IN 2015 WHEN THE COUNTY CREATED THE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH INITIATIVE, THERE IS A LOT OF NEW DOLLARS, I THINK AROUND 29 MILLION-DOLLARS, GENERATED ANNUALLY THROUGH THE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH INITIATIVE.

AND I AND OTHER ADVOCATES STARTED SAYING IN 2016, LET'S MATCH THOSE LOCAL DOLLARS WITH THE MEDICAID PROGRAM SO FOR EVERY DOLLAR WE GET FROM THE COUNTY, WE'LL GET THREE-AND-A-HALF DOLLARS FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THROUGH THE MEDICAID PROGRAM.

TO THIS DAY, THE COUNTY HAS NEVER DONE IT.

>> Jeff: LAST QUESTION IS THIS.

HOW WILL WE MEASURE SUCCESS OF THIS PARTNERSHIP?

WHEN IS A GOOD TIME TO COME BACK AND LOOK AT THIS AND WHAT WILL BE THE BENCHMARKS THAT SAY THIS IS WORKING OR HAS WORKED.

>> Cubra: I AM GOING TO BE EXPLICIT ABOUT IT.

AT THIS JUNCTURE, JUST GIVING SOME BASIC CARE TO PEOPLE OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, THAT, BY ITSELF, WOULD BE HEROICALLY DIFFERENT.

AND SO WE NEED TO THINK IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS ABOUT GOING FROM GROSSLY INADEQUATE CARE, UNCONSTITUTIONAL CARE TO CONSTITUTIONAL CARE WHERE PEOPLE GET RUDIMENTARY CARE.

AND THEY NEED TO STAFF UP.

UNM HAS HAD DIFFICULTY, FOR REASONS I DON'T YET UNDERSTAND, INCREASING THE STAFF AND IN FACT SOME PEOPLE HAVE LEFT FOR REASONS THAT ARE MYSTERIOUS.

SO, RIGHT NOW WE ARE GROSSLY UNDERSTAFFED AND SO WE NEED TO GET THROUGH THIS INITIAL PHASE WHICH IS STILL A CRISIS AND PEOPLE ARE AT RISK OF DEATH TODAY BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SECURITY STAFF AND ENOUGH MEDICAL MENTAL HEALTH STAFF.

SO, LET'S LOOK AT BY THE BEGINNING OF NEXT YEAR, CAN WE HAVE A STABLE BASIC MEDICAL MENTAL HEALTH PROGRAM?

ULTIMATELY, THOUGH, THE THINGS THAT WILL BE THE BEST MEASURES ARE, OF COURSE, REDUCTIONS OF DEATHS AND THEN REDUCTIONS OF INCARCERATION, BECAUSE THE LACK OF PROPER MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT AND DRUG TREATMENT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LEAVE THAT JAIL IS THE BIGGEST SINGLE CAUSE FOR MANY OF THESE PETTY OFFENSES.

PEOPLE WHO DON'T GET TREATMENT FOR BOTH OF THOSE PROBLEMS END UP COMMITTING NEW OFFENSES.

AND WE CAN REDUCE THE CENSUS IN THE JAIL THROUGH GOOD HEALTHCARE AND SO THOSE ARE THE TWO CRITICAL MEASURES TO ME.

>> Jeff: PETER CUBRA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING DOWN TODAY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> Cubra: HAPPY TO BE HERE.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE WORK.

>> Gene: THANK YOU TO JEFF AND PETER CUBRA FOR THAT CONVERSATION.

YOU CAN WATCH THE ENTIRE UNEDITED CONVERSATION RIGHT NOW ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS' YOUTUBE PAGE.

WELCOME BACK FOR ONE FINAL DISCUSSION HERE ON THE LINE.

A NATIONAL ACTIVIST GROUP IS CALLING FOR STRICTER WATER ACCESS TO PECAN, DAIRY AND ALFALFA FARMING INDUSTRIES ACROSS NEW MEXICO.

THE WASHING D.C. BASED FOOD AND WATER WATCH RELEASED A STUDY LAST MONTH SHOWING MORE THAN 80% OF NEW MEXICO'S FRESH WATER IS USED FOR AGRICULTURE.

THE GROUP IS URGING STATE OFFICIALS TO CURB ANY GROWTH IN THESE INDUSTRIES AND TO FOCUS ON PRESERVING WATER USED FOR RESIDENTIAL INSTEAD.

THE STUDY CAUGHT THE ATTENTION OF ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL REPORTER KATHY COOK WHO SPOKE TO SEVERAL FARMERS WHO DISAGREED WITH ONE SAYING, QUOTE, THE BEST WAY TO ALLOCATE THOSE RESOURCES IS THROUGH FREE-MARKET EFFORTS.

GIVEN NEW MEXICO'S SCARCITY OF WATER, PAUL, I'LL START WITH YOU, IS THIS CURRENT MODEL SUSTAINABLE?

WHAT SHOULD THE STATE GOVERNMENT REGULATORY ROLE BE HERE?

THIS IS THE INTERESTING PART HERE.

THE REGULATORY SIDE.

OUR EXECUTIVE BRANCH HAS A ROLE.

THE LEGISLATURE HAS A ROLE.

WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOKING AT THIS.

WHAT IS THE BEST APPROACH IN YOUR VIEW?

>> Garcia: WELL, OUR STATE HAS A LOT OF MANAGEMENT TOOLS ALREADY TO DEAL WITH HOW WE ALLOCATE WATER IN NEW MEXICO.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE WATER RIGHTS ARE ALREADY IN PLACE.

AND THAT ANY FUTURE CHANGES IN HOW WATER IS USED IS REGULATED BY THE STATE.

SO, YOU COULD CHANGE USES THROUGH A TIGHTLY REGULATED PROCESS AND IT DOES INVOLVE BUYING AND SELLING AND REGULATING WATER, BUT THE STATE ENGINEER HAS TO CONSIDER PUBLIC WELFARE, CONSERVATION OF WATER AND INTERNMENT OF OTHER EXISTING WATER RIGHTS.

SO, IT IS A PROBLEM THAT IS PART OF WATER POLICY AND IT CAN BE ADDRESSED IN A WAY THAT IS THROUGH OUR REGULATORY AND DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING LIKE IS THERE IS A SILVER BULLET, YOU JUST TAKE WATER FROM AGRICULTURE.

THE 80% NUMBER, I THINK, IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO LOOK AT.

>> Gene: 80% BEING USED FOR AGRICULTURE?

>> Garcia: YEAH.

BECAUSE THAT IS BASED ON DIVERSIONS.

IF YOU LOOK AT, IN TERMS OF THE FULL WATER BUDGET, AGRICULTURE ISN'T USING THAT 80 PERCENT.

THERE IS A LOT OF EVAPORATION THAT IS ALSO PART OF THE OVERALL WATER BUDGET.

SO, I THINK THE NUMBER IS MISLEADING.

>> Gene: IN WHAT SENSE?

IS IT TOO HIGH?

>> Garcia: IT IS TOO HIGH.

>> Gene: WHAT PERCENTAGE POINTS WOULD YOU GUESS?

>> Garcia: WELL, THERE IS SOME ESTIMATES THAT EVAPOTRANSPIRATION FROM THE BOSQUE IS ABOUT 20 SOME PERCENT, RESERVOIR EVAPORATION, DEPENDING HOW BIG THE RESERVOIR IS, COULD BE 20%.

AND AGRICULTURE IS IN THE RANGE OF 20 SOME PERCENT.

SO, IT IS OVERLY SIMPLISTIC TO THINK WE TAKE WATER FROM AGRICULTURE.

IT IS NOT TO DEFEND WASTE PRACTICES BUT WE NEED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN SURFACE AND GROUNDWATER AND WE NEED TO BE MUCH MORE MINDFUL ABOUT GROUNDWATER USE.

THE REPORT DOES ONE THING, I THINK, THAT IS IMPORTANT.

IT IS SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT HOW WE MANAGE WATER IN NEW MEXICO AND CALLING FOR BETTER DATA.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE ARE REALLY CAREFULLY MANAGING OUR GROUNDWATER REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE USE IS, WHETHER IT IS AGRICULTURE OR MUNICIPAL AND I THINK WE NEED TO BE -- HAVE A REALLY ROBUST REGULATORY FRAMEWORK, ROBUST DATA SETS SO THAT WE KNOW WE ARE MANAGING SO WE CAN SEE HOW MUCH IS LEFT IN THE TANK.

YOU KNOW, HOW CLOSE TO E?

ARE WE IN THE MIDDLE?

WE NEED BETTER DATA.

>> Gene: THAT IS AN EXCELLENT ANALOGY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT.

ELIZABETH, I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, TO BUTTRESS PAULA'S POINT HERE, MEGA DAIRIES IN NEW MEXICO REQUIRE 11 BILLION GALLONS OF WATER ANNUALLY.

EVERY YEAR.

THAT IS A TON OF WATER.

WE CAN HAVE LITTLE BITS ABOUT THE REPORT HERE THAT MAY NOT HAVE WORKED AND PAULA MADE A GOOD OVERALL SORT OF IDEA HOW WE LOOK AT A REPORT IN A BROADER SENSE.

BUT FOR THE REPORT FOR YOU SPECIFICALLY AND RESEARCH YOU HAVE DONE, WERE THEY ON THE MARK HERE ON THE ALARM OF THE AMOUNT OF FRESH WATER WE ARE USING FOR AGRICULTURE?

>> Miller: I THINK THE MOST USEFUL THING WE CAN DO WITH SOME OF THESE REPORTS IS TO USE THEM AS A PROMPT TO RECONSIDER SYSTEMS AS A WHOLE.

TO RECONSIDER HISTORIC PATHWAYS AND WHAT KIND OF FUTURE WE WANT TO BUILD, WHAT PRIORITIES WE WANT TO HAVE INTO THE FUTURE.

BECAUSE WHAT THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY ASKING IS, HERE ARE ALL THE NUMBERS WE HAVE LINED OUT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS PATTERN OF USE AND IS THIS THE SYSTEM WE WANT TO PERPETUATE INTO THE FUTURE?

WE JUST EXITED THE HOTTEST JULY IN RECORDED HISTORY.

THIS YEAR MAY BE THE HOTTEST THE PLANET HAS BEEN IN 120,000 YEARS.

THAT PREDATES THE DAWN OF AGRICULTURE BY 110,000 YEARS.

TO SAY WE ARE NOT UNPRECEDENTED TERRITORY AND TO SAY WE HAVE DONE IT THIS WAY IN THE PAST AND IT WORKED THIS WAY IN THE PAST AND WE DON'T HAVE TO ADJUST INTO THE FUTURE, THAT WOULD BE THE FUNDAMENTAL ERROR THAT WE COULD MAKE AS WE MOVE THROUGH CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS REPORT AND ANY OTHER.

>> Gene: WATCH DOG GROUPS DO WHAT THEY DO.

THEIR WHOLE THING IS TO MOVE THINGS FORWARD, MOVE THE CONVERSATIONS FORWARD.

SOMETIMES SHOCK VALUE IS PART OF THAT.

THAT IS FINE.

BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FRESH WATER AND DRINKING WATER SO IT IS NOT THAT MUCH OF A SHOCK.

HOWEVER, AGRICULTURE GENERATES MORE THAN 250,000 JOBS A YEAR HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

ACCORDING TO THE STATE'S DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, INDUSTRY BROUGHT IN $40 BILLION LAST YEAR, A THIRD OF THE COUNTRY'S PECANS ARE PRODUCED IN NEW MEXICO.

JUST A SENSE OF WHO IS USING WATER FOR WHAT REASON.

COULD WE REALLY MOVE THOSE KIND OF FOLKS TO A DIFFERENT POSITION.

IF YOU'RE THE THIRD BIGGEST PECAN GROWER IN THE NATION.

IF I AM A PECAN GROWER, NOTHING IS GOING WRONG, IF I AM THEM.

>> Fleck: ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WITH THE UNDERLYING PREMISE OF THE REPORT IS THE SORT OF FUNDAMENTAL DEMONIZATION OF ONE PARTICULAR SET OF FOLKS IN OUR COMMUNITY AND THE WAY THEY USE WATER.

AND TO ELIZABETH'S POINT ABOUT THE THINGS WE NEED TO DO GOING FORWARD, WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT AS WATER BECOMES MORE SCARCE WE HAVE A MULTIPLICITY OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF COMMUNITIES.

AGRICULTURE IS ONE THING FROM A 15,000 COW MEGA DAIRY TO THE FARMERS OF NORTHERN NEW MEXICO AND ACEQUIAS.

THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

AND, WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE ARE TRYING TO NEGOTIATE A LANDSCAPE WITH A MULTIPLICITY OF VALUES.

BUT WE ALSO NEED TO LOOK AT HISTORY OF WHAT WE ARE ALREADY DOING WHICH, I THINK, THE ACTIVIST GROUPS IGNORES SO AGRICULTURE WATER USE BY THE KIND OF MEASURES THEY ARE USING IS DOWN 30% OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES.

SO PEOPLE WHO FARM ARE ALREADY DOING THE THINGS THAT THIS REPORT SAYS WE SHOULD WANT TO DO.

THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT ALFALFA.

>> Gene: ARE THEY DOING IT OR ARE THEY FORCED TO DO IT OR -- >> Fleck: WHEN PEOPLE HAVE LESS WATER THEY USE LESS WATER.

THAT IS WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING.

MY POINT IS THAT AS A RESULT OF ONGOING ADAPTATION, AS EVERYBODY FIGURES OUT, THERE IS LESS WATER OVER HERE, SO I HAVE GOT TO USE LESS AND I HAVE TO SHARE WITH THESE NEIGHBORS.

I HAVE TO USE SOME.

YOU HAVE TO USE SOME.

HOW DO WE COLLECTIVELY APPROACH THIS.

MUNICIPAL WATER USE IS GOING DOWN.

AGRICULTURAL WATER USE IS GOING DOWN.

WE AS A COMMUNITY IN THIS SERIES OF DECENTRALIZED ACTIONS ARE ALREADY DOING THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE.

AND IF WE ARE TO SOLVE THE KIND OF PROBLEMS ELIZABETH TALKED ABOUT, WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE FIRST WHAT ARE THE TOOLS WE ALREADY HAVE?

HOW HAVE THEY WORKED?

WHAT CAN WE LEARN ABOUT WHAT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL?

ALFALFA FARMERS, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY ARE GROWING A LOT LESS ALFALFA, BECAUSE THERE IS LESS WATER, RIGHT.

SO, THE VERY THING THAT WATER WATCH COMPLAINS ABOUT IS THE BAD ALFALFA.

WELL, WE SHOULD GROW LESS ALFALFA.

THAT IS WHAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING.

IF YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE THE THINGS THAT ARE ALREADY BEING DONE, YOU CAN'T COME UP WITH A PLAN TO HELP US MOVE FORWARD COLLECTIVELY WITH THESE SHARED VALUES.

>> Gene: THAT IS NOT THE ACTIVIST'S GROUP RESPONSIBILITY, THAT LAST PART YOU MENTIONED THERE.

SO WHERE DO WE STAND NOW WITH THE STATE WHEN IT COMES TO A DROUGHT PLAN?

HOW MUCH UPDATING DO WE NEED?

I MEAN, WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

HOW DO WE HANDLE OUR OWN BUSINESS WITHOUT HAVING PEOPLE THROW BOMBS ABOUT WHAT WE ARE DOING AND NOT DOING?

WHAT IS NEXT?

WATER ENGINEERS?

WATER CZARS?

WHAT DO WE NEED?

>> Fleck: LAST YEAR, PAULA AND I BOTH PARTICIPATED IN A BROAD, FAR REACHING PROCESS, LAUNCHED BY GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM AND MIKE HAMMOND, THE STATE ENGINEER, THIS BROAD-BASED WATER TASKFORCE, THE STATE WATER TASKFORCE, CAME UP WITH A SUITE OF REALLY IMPORTANT RECOMMENDATIONS.

ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS IS CONSISTENT WITH THE FOOD AND WATER ARGUMENT WE NEED MORE FUNDING FOR THE STATE WATER DATA ACT AND BETTER DATA.

IT IS A CHALLENGING PROBLEM.

EVERYBODY HAS THE PROBLEM.

IT IS NOT LIKE WE ARE LAZY AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE SMART.

IT IS A HARD PROBLEM.

IT LAUNCHED THE FIRST STEPS TOWARD A REALLY COMPREHENSIVE WATER PLANNING PROCESS, BOTH REGIONALLY BASED AND STATEWIDE, WHERE YOU CAN GET PEOPLE IN COMMUNITIES TOGETHER AND SAY, LIKE, THIS IS OUR COMMUNITY, HOW MUCH DO WE NEED AGRICULTURE TO BE PART OF THE ECONOMY?

HOW MUCH DO WE NEED TO BE SURE OUR CITIES HAVE TO CONTINUE TO EXIST?

AND A COLLABORATIVE PROCESS NOT JUST SAYING FROM SOME TOP DOWN, THAT USE OF WATER BAD.

WHETHER IT IS CITIES USING TOO MUCH OR AGRICULTURE IS USING TOO MUCH.

SO THESE KIND OF PROCESSES, THAT IS HOW WE REALLY SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS.

YOU DON'T SOLVE IT FROM THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID WITH AN EDICT >> Garcia: I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

WATER SCARCITY IS A COLLECTIVE PROBLEM.

AND IT DOESN'T -- IT IS NOT GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE FROM THAT COLLABORATIVE VIEW TO DEMONIZE ANY PARTICULAR USE TOO MUCH.

>> Gene: DO YOU VIEW THAT AS DEMONIZATION?

JUST LISTING HOW PEOPLE USE WATER IS DEMONIZATION.

>> Garcia: I DON'T THINK SO.

THAT MAYBE WASN'T THE RIGHT WORD.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT JUST THE PREMISE OF THE REPORT IS THAT IF YOU JUST MOVE WATER FROM AGRICULTURE TO CITIES THAT IS GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OR YOU END THESE PARTICULAR KIND OF USES, IT DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT, IN FACT, IN THE LOWER RIO GRANDE A PRESENTATION I HEARD LAST WEEK TO THE INTERIM COMMITTEES WAS THAT AGRICULTURE HAS REMAINED FAIRLY STEADY DURING A CERTAIN TIME PERIOD.

IT'S CALLED THE D-2 BASELINE ON THE RIO GRANDE COMPACT.

AGRICULTURE HAS REMAINED PRETTY STEADY BUT DCMI, WHICH IS DOMESTIC, COMMERCIAL, MUNICIPAL AND INDUSTRIAL HAD GONE UP 250%.

SO AGRICULTURE IS NOT GETTING IN THE WAY OF THAT GROWTH.

IT IS HAPPENING.

THERE IS TRANSITIONS HAPPENING AND IF ANYTHING WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT HOW WE RETAIN ALL THE VALUES IN OUR COMMUNITY THAT WE WANT TO PROTECT INTO THE FUTURE.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE WANTS TO SEE AGRICULTURE DISAPPEAR AT THE EXPENSE OF URBAN GROWTH.

IN FACT, IF YOU TRANSFERRED ALL THE SURFACE WATER RIGHTS TO WELLS FOR MUNICIPAL OR INDUSTRIAL USE, IT WOULD AN ECOLOGICAL DISASTER BECAUSE YOU WOULD DEPLETE THE AQUIFER.

YOU WOULD DESTROY THE RIVER AND THEN YOU WOULD DEPLETE THE WATER COMMONS THAT WE ALL RELY ON FOR OUR LIVES.

SO I THINK THE PROCESS OF WATER PLANNING, THE TYPE OF TASKFORCE THAT JOHN IS DESCRIBING WHEN WE ARE THINKING ABOUT ALL THE ASPECTS, WE TALKED ABOUT WATERSHEDS, WE TALKED ABOUT GROUNDWATER, WE ADDRESSED, IN SOME SMALL WAY, AGRICULTURE.

BUT, ALSO RURAL WATER SYSTEMS.

ALL OF THIS MULTIPLICITY OF INTERESTS AND THERE IS NO COOKIE CUTTER APPROACH.

EVERY COMMUNITY IS DIFFERENT.

THE HYDROLOGICAL CONDITIONS ARE DIFFERENT.

SO I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SURFACE AND GROUNDWATER BECAUSE SURFACE WATER IS WHATEVER IS PROVIDED BY NATURE AND WHEN IT RUNS OUT THAT YEAR, YOU STOP IRRIGATING AND WE ARE ALREADY BEING CUT BY NATURE.

WE DON'T NEED A BUREAUCRACY TO CUT US.

WE DON'T NEED DRACONIAN LAWSUITS SAYING NO MORE AGRICULTURE.

NATURE IS CUTTING US OFF.

GROUNDWATER IS RAIN OR SHINE.

>> Gene: WE NEED TO WRAP UP.

I WANT TO TEST YOUR LEVEL OF OPTIMISM, ALL OF YOU HERE.

JUST REAL QUICK, ARE WE ON THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC, 10 SECONDS?

>> Fleck: YES, BUT LESS THAN I WAS FIVE YEARS AGO.

>> Gene: ELIZABETH, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> Miller: I WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO WHY LESS THAN FIVE YEARS AGO.

>> Gene: ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC ABOUT WHERE THINGS ARE HEADED FOR WATER MANAGEMENT HERE?

>> Miller: I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO SAY.

I THINK IT IS NOT AS BIG A PRIORITY AS IT REALLY NEEDS TO BE WITH STATE LEADERSHIP.

>> Gene: PAULA, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW AND THE ACEQUIA ASSOCIATION?

>> Garcia: I AM OPTIMISTIC ABOUT PEOPLE AND OUR ABILITY TO ADAPT.

I AM NOT OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE FUTURE OF WATER.

IT IS GOING TO GET MORE SCARCE AND MORE DIFFICULT.

>> Gene: EXACTLY RIGHT.

THANKS AGAIN TO PAULA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW MEXICO ACEQUIA ASSOCIATION.

JOHN FLECK, UNM PROFESSOR AND WATER RESEARCHER AT THE UTTON CENTER AT THE UNIVERSITY AND FREE-LANCE -- NOT A GREAT WORD -- HOW ABOUT INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST ELIZABETH MILLER FOR BEING ON THE SHOW THIS WEEK.

LET US KNOW ABOUT ANY TOPICS WE COVERED ON OUR FACEBOOK, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM PAGES OR CATCH ANY EPISODE YOU MAY HAVE MISSED ON THE PBS APP ON YOUR ROKU OR SMART TV.

NOW FOR AN UPDATE ON A YEAR LONG LEGAL BATTLE OVER WATER SHARING BETWEEN OUR STATE, COLORADO AND TEXAS.

HERE IS OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS.

>> Laura: IT MIGHT BE HARD TO REMEMBER TODAY BUT IN THE 1980'S AND 90'S NEW MEXICO'S RESERVOIRS WERE DOING PRETTY WELL.

THAT STARTED TO CHANGE DRASTICALLY IN THE 2000'S.

WITH YEAR AFTER YEAR OF DROUGHT AND TEMPERATURES RISING, IN 2008 TWO WATER DISTRICTS, ONE IN TEXAS AND ONE IN NEW MEXICO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW HAPPENING AT ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR.

IN COOPERATION WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THEY CAME UP WITH AN AGREEMENT TO SHARE WATER DURING DRY TIMES.

BUT THE STATES OF NEW MEXICO AND TEXAS WEREN'T ACTUALLY A PART OF THAT AGREEMENT.

AND FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL HERE IN NEW MEXICO, GARY KING, SUED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYING TOO MUCH OF THE RIO GRANDE'S WATER WAS GOING TO TEXAS.

TEXAS DISAGREED AND THEN ALLEGED THAT BY ALLOWING FARMERS TO PUMP GROUNDWATER CONNECTED TO THE RIO GRANDE, NEW MEXICO HAD BEEN SHORTCHANGING TEXAS UNDER THE RIO GRANDE COMPACT OF 1938.

WHEN TEXAS SUED NEW MEXICO AND OUR UPSTREAM NEIGHBOR, COLORADO, WE ALL LANDED IN THE SUPREME COURT.

THAT EXPENSIVE AND STRESSFUL LEGAL BATTLE HAS GONE ON FOR YEARS.

NOW THE THREE STATES SAY THEY HAVE COME UP WITH A PLAN TO MOVE FORWARD AND RECENTLY FEDERAL JUDGE MICHAEL MELLOY, HE IS WHAT IS CALLED THE SPECIAL MASTER ON THE CASE, HE ISSUED AN ORDER GIVING THAT SETTLEMENT THE GREEN LIGHT.

HE ALSO IS RECOMMENDING THAT THE SUPREME COURT DO THE SAME.

THOUGH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T AGREED TO THE PLAN.

SO, TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON, I RECENTLY SPOKE WITH WATER ATTORNEY, ADRIAN OGLESBY.

HE DIRECTS THE UTTON CENTER AT UNM LAW SCHOOL.

ADRIAN OGLESBY, THANKS FOR BEING WITH ME TODAY.

>> Oglesby: YEAH.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU LAURA.

IT HAS BEEN A WHILE.

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

SO NEW MEXICO IS CELEBRATING JUDGE MELLOY'S DECISION BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T ACTUALLY SIGNED ON YET.

DOES THAT MATTER?

>> Oglesby: IT DOES FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.

THE FIRST THING TO KEEP IN MIND IS THAT THIS IS A CASE BETWEEN THE STATES IN THE SUPREME COURT.

WHEN THE STATE'S HAVE ARGUMENTS DIRECTLY BETWEEN THEMSELVES, THE SUPREME COURT HAS WHAT THEY CALL ORIGINAL JURISDICTION, EXCLUSIVE JURISDICTION OVER THE FIGHTS BETWEEN THE STATES.

IN THIS CASE, WE HAVE GOT THIS INTERESTING SITUATION WHERE THE TWO MAIN ANTAGONISTS, TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO, ARE NOW ARM IN ARM IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT SAYING WE ARE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT SOMETHING.

THE UNITED STATES INTERVENED IN THIS CASE AND WHEN THEY INTERVENED, TEXAS, IN PARTICULAR, WAS VERY PARTICULAR SAYING, WE ARE HAPPY TO HAVE THEM IN THE ROOM BUT WE WANT TO LIMIT THIS TO QUESTIONS ABOUT INTERPRETATION OF THE COMPACT.

THE ISSUES THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION OF THE UNITED STATES HAS ARE ISSUES THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE ADDRESSED BY LOWER COURTS AND THERE ARE ACTUALLY CASES THAT HAVE BEEN STAYED WAITING FOR THE SUPREME COURT DECISION WHERE THIS RECLAMATION COULD RETURN AND HAVE THEIR ISSUES ADDRESSED.

THAT IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THE QUESTION THAT YOU HAVE ASKED.

THE PROCEDURAL IMPACT IS THAT THE SUPREME COURT, IF THEY DECIDE NOT TO JUST ACCEPT THE SPECIAL MASTER'S RECOMMENDATION AS IS, MAY DECIDE TO HAVE A TRIAL AND HEAR THE UNITED STATES' OBJECTIONS AND I SUSPECT THAT IS GOING TO BE LIKELY.

THAT PUSHES OUT THE TIME FRAME A LITTLE BIT.

SO IF THAT IS THE CASE, I EXPECT WE MAY SEE A DECISION FROM THE SUPREME COURT CONSIDERING THE U.S.' CONCERNS SOME TIME MID 2024.

>> Laura: WOW.

WE STILL HAVE A WAYS TO GO.

>> Oglesby: A LITTLE BIT, YES, BUT THAT IS PRETTY FAST IN SUPREME COURT WORLD.

>> Laura: OKAY.

IF THERE WERE A DECISION OR IF THE SETTLEMENT AS IT HAS SORT OF BEEN NEGOTIATED NOW WERE SET INTO PLACE, WHAT KINDS OF THINGS DO YOU THINK WOULD CHANGE ON THE GROUND?

>> Oglesby: THE MAIN IMPACT IS GOING TO BE HISTORICALLY WE HAVE HAD ONE DELIVERY POINT FOR OUR WATER TO TEXAS AND THAT IS ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR WHICH IS IN NEW MEXICO, WELL ABOVE THE TEXAS STATE LINE.

SO, THE NOTION WAS WE WOULD DELIVER TO THAT RESERVOIR AND THEN THE WATER WOULD BE SPLIT 57% TO THE NEW MEXICANS BELOW, 43% TO THE TEXANS BELOW, BUT GIVEN THE ALLEGED OVERUSE OF WATER BY NEW MEXICO, TEXAS NOW WANTS TO HAVE A GAUGING STATION RIGHT AT THE STATE LINE.

SO WE'LL HAVE TWO DELIVERY POINTS.

WE'LL CONTINUE TO DELIVER TO ELEPHANT BUTTE JUST AS WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE, THE SAME RULES APPLY, BUT NOW WE HAVE A GAUGE RIGHT ABOVE THE TEXAS STATE LINE WHERE THEY WILL ALSO BE MEASURING TO MAKE SURE WE GET SUFFICIENT WATER TO MEET TEXAS' APPORTIONMENT.

>> Laura: WHY DO YOU THINK NEW MEXICANS, AND NOT JUST FARMERS OR CITIES IN THE SOUTH, LIKE WHY SHOULD ANYBODY IN NEW MEXICO CARE ABOUT THIS?

>> Oglesby: IT IS OUR OBLIGATION.

THE OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE COMPACT ARE HELD BY ALL NEW MEXICANS.

IT IS NOT JUST THE FARMERS WHO HAVE TO DELIVER THE WATER.

SO, IF THERE WAS A CALL TO DELIVER A LOT MORE WATER, THAT WOULD POTENTIALLY COME FROM NOT ONLY THE LOWER RIO GRANDE BUT POTENTIALLY THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE AND OTHER PLACES ALONG THE RIVER.

MOREOVER, THE COMPACT IS AN AGREEMENT.

IT IS A CONTRACT OF SORTS AND YOU KNOW WE, AS NEW MEXICANS, SHOULD STAND BY OUR WORD.

>> Laura: THERE IS A LONG HISTORY TO THIS LAWSUIT BUT I KNOW OFTENTIMES NEW MEXICANS SEE WATER ISSUES IN THE STATE AS TEXANS STEALING OUR WATER, TAKING OUR WATER.

IS THIS LAWSUIT AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING LIKE THAT OR IS THERE A DEEPER ISSUE?

>> Oglesby: IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE ALLEGATIONS HERE WERE THAT NEW MEXICO WAS THE ONE STEALING WATER.

OF COURSE, NEW MEXICO MADE COUNTERCLAIMS, THAT SAID, NO, TEXAS IS ALSO PUMPING THE HECK OUT OF GROUNDWATER AND THAT IS IMPACTING US AS WELL.

AND THERE IS BACK AND FORTH ON THAT ISSUE.

IN REALITY, IF YOU GO DOWN TO THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE RIO GRANDE PROJECT, AS WE CALL IT, THE TWO IRRIGATION DISTRICTS, ELEPHANT BUTTE IRRIGATION DISTRICT AND EL PASO'S NUMBER ONE IRRIGATION DISTRICT, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE MANAGED SEPARATELY ACROSS STATE LINES, THEY ARE REALLY AN INTERWOVEN SYSTEM.

SO WE HAVE PLACES DOWN THERE WHERE OBVIOUSLY NEW MEXICO IS DELIVERING WATER TO TEXAS BUT WE ALSO HAVE PLACES WHERE TEXAS IS DELIVERING WATER TO NEW MEXICANS.

IT IS REALLY ONE BIG SYSTEM DOWN THERE AND SO IT IS NOT REALLY USEFUL TO SAY, YOU KNOW, TEXANS ARE THE OTHER.

THEY ARE PART OF THE FAMILY DOWN THERE.

AND THE MORE WE CAN COOPERATE, THE BETTER.

>> Laura: SO, DO YOU THINK AS THE CLIMATE WARMS, AS THINGS GET DRYER AND WATER CHALLENGES INCREASE, DO YOU THINK WE'LL SEE MORE OF THESE TYPES OF LAWSUITS OR DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER OR LEARN HOW TO COOPERATE?

>> Oglesby: AS WATER SUPPLIES ARE REDUCED DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE, I THINK WE'LL SEE MORE OF THESE KIND OF DISPUTES.

THINGS JUST GET HARDER AND HARDER THE LESS WATER WE HAVE.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I AM KIND OF OPTIMISTIC.

PART OF THE PROBLEM, PART OF WHAT GOT US HERE WAS TO USE THE OLD PHRASE, A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE.

AND, AGAIN, NOW WE HAVE GOT TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO AND COLORADO ALL AGAIN ARM IN ARM IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT.

THEY HAVE WORKED OUT A GOOD SETTLEMENT.

THEY ARE FOCUSED ON GETTING IT IMPLEMENTED AND SOME OF THE ACTIONS THEY ARE TAKING TO MAKE SURE THAT NEW MEXICO CAN MEET ITS OBLIGATIONS INCLUDE HEAVY INVESTMENTS IN CONSERVATION, DEVELOPING PROGRAMS WHERE WE CAN TEMPORARILY ALLOW FARMERS TO LEASE THEIR WATER TO HELP US MEET OUR OBLIGATIONS, INCLUDING OUR OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT HERE IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY AND STORM WATER CAPTURE IS SOMETHING THAT FOLKS ARE REALLY HEAVILY FOCUSING ON BECAUSE WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, WE ALL ARE EXPECTING THESE MORE FREAKISH KIND OF STORMS AND THAT IF WE CAN MONITOR WHERE THOSE ARE COMING IN THROUGH OUR ARROYOS AND SIDE CHANNELS AND CAPTURE THOSE, THAT IS GOING TO BE A BIG HELP.

THEN THE LAST ELEMENT THAT I THINK FOLKS ARE REALLY STARTING TO THINK HARD ABOUT, BUT IT IS GOING TO BE A MUCH THORNIER ISSUE IS UTILIZING DEEP BRACKISH WATER AND DESALINATING THAT TO A POINT WHERE IT CAN BE USED EITHER FOR AGRICULTURE OR OTHER PURPOSES.

>> Laura: SO DO YOU THINK THAT THIS LAWSUIT WHICH WAS FOCUSED ON THE LOWER RIO GRANDE, DO YOU THINK IT HOLDS ANY LESSONS OR POTENTIAL WARNINGS FOR UPSTREAM INCLUDING HERE IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY?

>> Oglesby: YEAH, CERTAINLY.

REALLY TO THE ITEMS I JUST LISTED.

WE HAVE TO COMMUNICATE BETTER AND JUST RECENTLY THERE WAS A GET TOGETHER, A TOUR OF THE RIVER THAT WAS ORGANIZED BY THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE CONSERVANCY DISTRICT AND THE ELEPHANT BUTTE IRRIGATION DISTRICT, NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED HISTORICALLY.

WE HAVE GOTTEN THOSE BOARDS TOGETHER FOR LUNCH ONCE IN A WHILE BUT NOW THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW THEIR OPERATIONS CAN COMPLIMENT ONE ANOTHER AND CAN ASSIST WITH THE STATE'S OBLIGATIONS TO TEXAS.

YEAH.

>> Laura: LASTLY, I AM CURIOUS, YOU'RE A WATER ATTORNEY AND HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT -- WHAT DO YOU REALLY WISH THAT NEW MEXICANS BETTER UNDERSTOOD OR TALKED ABOUT MORE, MAYBE PARTICULARLY ON THE RIO GRANDE?

>> Oglesby: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

AND I SHOULD CLARIFY I WAS PROBABLY ONE OF THE FEW LAWYERS IN THE STATE WHO IS NOT ENGAGED IN THE SUPREME COURT CASE, WHICH IS PROBABLY WHY I CAN TALK TO YOU MORE FREELY ABOUT IT.

BUT, YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE ALL JUST HAVE TO CONSTANTLY DO BETTER.

IN THIS CASE, WE WERE SORT OF TRYING TO HOLD THE LINE.

WE ARE TRYING TO MAINTAIN THE EXISTING AGREEMENT THAT WE FORMULATED BACK IN 1978.

BUT, YEAH, CLIMATE CHANGE IS UPON US.

I MEAN, YOU FELT HOW HOT IT IS THIS SUMMER, RIGHT?

WE ALL KNOW WE ARE GOING TO HAVE LESS WATER AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MORE FIRES AND MORE CHALLENGES.

SO THINKING AHEAD AND PREPARING FOR THAT, GETTING BEYOND JUST HOW DO WE DEAL WITH TODAY'S PROBLEMS IS AN OBLIGATION THAT FALLS ON ALL OF US, WHETHER WE ARE IRRIGATING A HALF ACRE IN TIERRA AMARILLA OR MANAGING A DISTRICT THAT SERVES 60,000 ACRES, WE SHOULD ALL BE THINKING THE SAME WAY.

ONE THING THAT ENCOURAGES ME IS THAT 20 YEARS AGO YOU RARELY HEARD PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT AS A CONCERN, AS PART OF THEIR WATER MANAGEMENT.

NOW THAT IS A CONSISTENT LINE THROUGHOUT.

AND JOINED TO THAT, OF COURSE, NOW IS MAKING SURE WE MEET OUR OBLIGATIONS TO TEXAS AS WELL.

I AM OPTIMISTIC WE ARE GOING TO DO THAT.

WE'LL SEE WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SAYS, OF COURSE.

>> Laura: WELL, THANKS ADRIAN, I APPRECIATE IT.

>> Oglesby: IT HAS BEEN GREAT TO BE HERE, LAURA, THANKS.

>> Gene: THANK YOU TO LAURA AND ADRIAN FOR THAT CONVERSATION AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK, IN FOCUS.